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A test
by bennash - 05/25/26 02:03 PM
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Hi Y'all.... I rarely see red...but I did the other night....when I saw an internet post with my Name on it....(not exactly stating the truth) I will try to stick strictly to issues so that I can get some concrete answers to something that happened this past summer...). Last year (this year) in late winter, I offered to write a melody to a song posted on the net. The guy/gal was really wanting someone to do music and couldn't seem to thank me enough for offering. The subject matter touched my heart for reasons I won't post here....and we communicated back and forth via emails... The guy/gal accepted my suggested lyric revisions (in writing) along with some excellent suggestions offered from a lyrics board. The song lyrics were then reposted listing the guys/gals name along with "Kaley" in the copyright notation. I explained to the guy/gal that I was backed up with other co-writes...and...that although I'd keep the lyrics by the piano... I wasn't going to be able to get to them for awhile. (and I am just plain slow because ...I hear melodies...but don't know chords...so I painstakingly go after them one by one and then play over and over and over and over till I can make a rough recording for someone else's ears other than mine)...whoops.....I said I'd stick to the issues) I also made "suggestions" via writing.....on what types of places could possibly be super interested in receiving a song like this. ( which non profit organizations might love a song like this) ... We communicated back in forth many, many times...in writing. In May I finished the melody.... and received a reply back...about how much he/she loved the melody.....and that he/she could not ever thank me enough. This person liked? the song enough to have it put on his / her personal play list at Soundclick....which lists the copyright information ( which I've made photocopies of all) It shows in the copyright notation Lyrics by ___________ Melody by Kaley Willow. In checking this out, I see where it is on others' play lists as well. (not yet on my own JPF play list). Each list gives the same copyright information that was originally put on Soundclick...so I believe it is well documented on the internet that I had vested interest in at least ONE version of this song. In July, I received an email from the co-writer asking for his/her 'song back' after it had been completed...(This was NOT a "middle of a co-write" breakdown...but after it was acknowledged as beautiful and a finished piece put on the internet on this person's own web play list). This party wanted my name off the copyright as if I had ...had nothing to do with either the lyrics or melody attached to the name of that song. He/She had ...another opportunity to put a different melody to the lyrics.... I wrote back asking if he/she was telling me about having "another version" done by a 2nd co-writer. I also wished him/her well...and that I was SUPER PLEASED that he/she had an opportunity with a" 2nd version"...and to "GO FOR IT".....but that I felt it would be very foolish on my part to sign off on a copyright for the first version of the song "we" had created as if it had not ever happened. After all, at the time, I had no idea if it was a shark outfit who might borrow parts of the melody I had attached to his/her lyrics. So I said I wish you well with the opportunity but there will simply be TWO versions, two copyrights of this song. I never heard another word back...until I saw a posting on the internet thanking me for working on it but he/she had chosen another melody for his/her lyrics. A publisher who has shown some interest in my songs...has suggested I consider having some of my piano melodies done up by an accomplished pianist.who could showcase the melodies... Someone at the university level at a music school...or a pro.....so that they can be pitched as instrumentals. One of the songs I wanted to use was this song. **so to the question, Do I have to contact an entertainment lawyer to be able to include this song on a future CD?... I still wish him or her well...I've heard the other version of the song and it's lovely!!...This is NOT a matter of sour grapes. It's the principle of the thing, I could easily change the name of the song...keep the melody...and not go through the hassle.... but after having had a challenging year of having a demo artist walk away with my co-writers and my $$$ and disappear off the face of the earth and then this.... I felt enough was enough. I'm very nice but not a doormat. If anyone has had this specifically happen to them after a song had been "completed" and copyright notated or can offer advice...I'd appreciate hearing from you. I'm almost thinking it was not intentional on the part of the other person...but more of a ..."just not knowing".....I will continue to think that. Any suggestions would be appreciated............. best wishes, Kaley http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=6469 http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=8404 http://www.flashfast.com/kids/ http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kwwg [This message has been edited by Kaley Willow (edited 12-15-2005).]
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This is also what confuses me about 'emailing' and sending 'mp3's' as part of a collaboration process. I've been invited to 'share song ideas'with several other songwriters but havent' dared so far. When I go to register my copyrighted songs with SOCAN I am asked what the 'worktype' is - what is the original work? under the 'use of protected material section.' I never know how to answer it. I'm given several options to choose from: use of copyright words, sampling, usage of copyright words and music, trad public domain, etc. Most songs come from influences of other songs and music heard over a lifetime. Where's the line exactly where a song is totally mine and not yours or his or her's or their's? What if my song uses ideas of words and phrases from the Psalms in the Bible? Is it then 'trad public domain' or what? What if I use words from my grandma's recipe which she used from her grandma's recipe and so on and so forth? What if I use words from a witch's spell and incantation? Whom does it belong to then? And please don't say to ask SOCAN or EMI or BMG or whoever because when I phone them they tell me they are not a musician's agent. They are the one's responsible for making sure the material is properly copyrighted and registered but they can't advize on the categories of what is copyrighted material and what isn't. They can't clarify questions of a registered member. It's ludicrous. And that's why I have writer's block. www.cdbaby.com/cd/dawnmusic www.soundclick.com/bands/dawnarts www.dawn.dmusic.com/ [This message has been edited by Heradia (edited 12-15-2005).]
PEACE!
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Hi Heradia... Don't know the answers to your questions either.......but thank you for responding. I've found more cowrites to be great experiences and I've made friends and business acquaintances by networking on the web...... I've also had collaborations that have fallen apart "during" the writing process... Sometimes, it has been my fault., sometimes...it's no ones fault. I would not be afraid to co-write on line again....and am still doing it.... just more cautious...(After this happened I used the word gunshy a time or two...but I'm really not). Hoping you get some suggestions too... best wishes, Kaley http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=8404 http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=6469 http://www.flashfast.com/kids/ http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kwwg
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Kaley:I write alone,and one of the main reasons is mixups like you just described.I've only written with others once or twice and it never worked out.
In your case the other party can choose to use the other melody and you can use your melody any way you see fit,as an instrumental or put different words to it and make a complete song.I know it can hurt when you've put all that work into it and then have it snubbed for a johnny come lately.It's almost compareable to a love relationship that goes astray,but that's life.Start writing new words to your melody, you may end up with a better song than before.
Everett
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Heradia: This is also what confuses me about 'emailing' and sending 'mp3's' as part of a collaboration process. I've been invited to 'share song ideas'with several other songwriters but havent' dared so far.
When I go to register my copyrighted songs with SOCAN I am asked what the 'worktype' is - what is the original work? under the 'use of protected material section.'
I never know how to answer it. I'm given several options to choose from: use of copyright words, sampling, usage of copyright words and music, trad public domain, etc.
Most songs come from influences of other songs and music heard over a lifetime. Where's the line exactly where a song is totally mine and not yours or his or her's or their's?
What if my song uses ideas of words and phrases from the Psalms in the Bible? Is it then 'trad public domain' or what?
What if I use words from my grandma's recipe which she used from her grandma's recipe and so on and so forth?
What if I use words from a witch's spell and incantation? Whom does it belong to then?
And please don't say to ask SOCAN or EMI or BMG or whoever because when I phone them they tell me they are not a musician's agent.
They are the one's responsible for making sure the material is properly copyrighted and registered but they can't advize on the categories of what is copyrighted material and what isn't. They can't clarify questions of a registered member. It's ludicrous. And that's why I have writer's block.
www.cdbaby.com/cd/dawnmusic
www.soundclick.com/bands/dawnarts
www.dawn.dmusic.com/
[This message has been edited by Heradia (edited 12-15-2005).]</font> Copyright is a funny thing.Sometimes you can "borrow" a verse from another song and not be infringing while other times you can infring by "borrowing" just one line.The English language only has a few thousand words and they all get used everyday,some more than others,so if you don't write because you fear that you may be borrowing words already used,then you will never write. You can't copyright a title or idea but you can copyright a story or song as a package, how you tell it,but not each individual word or phrase used in telling said story. I am not a lawyer but this is my understanding of copyright.Right or wrong. Everett
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Kaley,
If you ever want to use that song, like sign it to a publisher or anything like that, you are going to have to talk to an entertainment attorney to sort it out, because what transpired is a complicated thing, and how the courts view it has changed over the years.
Keeping in mind I am not an attorney, so I am not giving legal advice, and what I say should not be relied on in decision making, the way it's generally viewed nowdays is that if two people get together and write a song, and one person provides the lyrics and one person the melody (so we are putting together two distinct entities that are copyrightable in and of themselves), in the absence of any other agreements (such as a songwriting agreement), this is considered a joint work. With a joint work, each author is considered to to be half owner of the ENTIRE work. You, as the melody writer, are half-owner of the melody AND half-owner of the lyric. The same is true of the lyric writer. They are half owner of the melody, and half-owner of the lyrics. In my mind, the fact you helped co-write the lyrics just strengthens your ownership of them, but practically, because they were put to a joint work with you as the other owner means you half-own them anyway.
With a joint work, it is also allowed that any owner can make all the non-exclusive agreements they want without the other owner(s) permissions, as long as the other owner(s) is/are paid their share of the proceeds. In practice, permissions from all owners are usually obtained in writing before any agreements are executed.
Also, although every situation is different, and in the long run only a court could decide, the factors you mentioned surrounding the original song, such as a recording was made of it, and the lyric writer loved it, it was posted as a song with both of you as writers, etc. makes a pretty strong case that the intent was there for the lyrics to be merged as a joint work. There is a point in joint work co-writing where it can be abandoned, but that point is very tricky to figure out, and the fact a recording was made and all the other factors you mentioned, to my mind weigh heavily in your favor. Plus, you have the other issue of you actually helped co-write the lyrics.
So, my position would be, you now own half the original song, so there is no "other song" unless you are paid and given credit for 50% of it. Because any song now made from the original is a derivative, even if it just takes the lyrics, and you own 50% of it. And you *may* even have a say in ANYTHING done with this derivative song. And I don't see any way ethically this "other song" could be shopped or signed to significate agreements without your permission, because of the legal issues involved. But, you are in the same boat with the original, I don't see how you could execute any agreements without express permisson from the lyric writer, not because you don't have a right to, but because there is now a legal cloud around it.
In short, in my opinion, your co-writer is full of it if they think they can just take you off the song and make another. The both of you are stuck with each other now and anything made of the original (even if it just uses the lyrics) is a derivative, in which you own 50%.
[This message has been edited by Liszt Laughing (edited 12-16-2005).]
Boo...my name is Doug
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Hey Kaley, Seasons Greetings! I've seen Brian Austin Whitney respond somewhat to an issue such as this one and he urged the individual to post it on the mentor forum so that a gentleman named Stu could comment...he is an attorney I take it! I tend to think your way is correct and there will simply be 2 versions of the song if the other person agrees to you using his/her lyric?...I did a collab with someone too and never got to hear his/her melody but it was considered completed by his/her standards and since I was very new to this didn't know that I had a choice. I've since then came up with a different melody than the original I am certain(although I've never heard the original) and don't think there should be any problem with my issue since it's my lyric but I'm not so sure if you're using someone else's lyric if it's totally okay to do! My unprofessional two cents worth....Best Wishes, Linda A. ------------------ http://www.soundclick.com/lindaanthony you think you can or you think you can't; you are right"
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Hi Everett, thank you so much for responding....and congratulations on all the stepping stones...you've been leaping on lately. hmmmmm...yes, I could take the melody and write or have other words written to it..... (if that is allowed...being it is in at least 5 different places on the net showing copyright notation).....and just walk away from it........ The time and effort, I put into it.... are secondary ...as I throw myself 100% into every melody I write....and go into collaborations..with the attitude that just because I think something is nice and fitting....the collaborator might not...and boy I certainly think I say that a LOT in communicating...It is not a problem...they can let me know...& I can attempt another one...&/or....if IT IS A WORK IN PROGRESS....the collaboration can dissolve if need be..........But this situation is different, we weren't in the middle of a collaboration, the gal/guy stated how much she/he loved it , can't thank me enough...and then puts it on his /her..own private radio playlist..to share with others...and then..... A Month later..( I was wrong....I finished it in June not May.)writes me and says.. I'm sorry but I would like my song back... I've grown in confidence to accept.....what I write may not tickle someone's fancy. and that some co-writes do not work..that's not a lose lose situation for me anymore....I don't ever even let someone hear anything I've written till I'm happy to put my name on it.....so I still end up with a melody....even if i'm the only one in the world who likes it..<G>.... uh oh..i rambled again..... thanks Everitt for coming by and giving me your thoughts.....Don't be afraid to co-write though..... I have had many beautiful people write with me.........and hope to continue to.... best to you..... Kaley http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=8404 http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=6469 http://www.flashfast.com/kids/ http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kwwg
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I can't advise you on your problem. You need an attorney. But, I can help you for the future: NEVER co-write with someone until you get an agreement in writing that enumerates just exactly your relationship will be. If anyone refuses to write with you because you insist on an agreement, wish them well and go find someone else.
If you can't bring yourself to sign an agreement, at least talk about it beforehand: "whatever we come up with will be a 50-50 co-write and neither has the right to do ANYTHING else to the song without the permission and participation of the other."
See how easy it is?
BTW, if I were you, I'd write a new lyric to the song (use the same title if you like, you are allowed) and move forward. I would not waste time with the old co-writer. It's just a song.
[This message has been edited by TrumanCoyote (edited 12-16-2005).]
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Liz...thanks so much for stopping by..... so...If I chose to put this on an instrumental CD in the future...I will need to be sure...what's what...right?..I have kept a copy of everything...including photocopies of web sites...(should anything be changed) . I'm no longer seeing red...and I hope I don't have to get into any kind of legal entanglement..... but will get some more advice... and hopefully learn and grow from this.... I've been told some of my melodies are suitable as stand alones or instrumentals..(done up by someone other than me..<G> )...so I've gone into many co-writes explaining via emails....that I am considering have an instrumental version done...and get that cleared up .....but maybe I really do need to consider a written agreement... bottom line...I guess I do need legal advice here...... Thanks Liz for all your time and effort in responding....and for the thought you gave this.... best to you...this afternoon ![[Linked Image]](http://www.justplainfolks.org/ubb/smile.gif) Kaley........ http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=8404 http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=6469 http://www.flashfast.com/kids/ http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kwwg
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hey... some great advice here... a couple of thoughts from me... 1) the lyrics may have been bandied about, tweaking, re-written, etc so that they are a joint item 2) but you wrote the music I suggest, renaming the piece and making it an instrumental only (or writing new words). BEFORE you do that, I would contact this other person IN WRITING and inform them that, since they have chosen to remove their contribution to the song and go elsewhere, you are free to do whatever you want with the music/melody. I'd get them to sign an agreement. In the future, always sign a co-writing agreement. It should clearly spell out any revision clause. I've done a number of collabs and always state up front that I expect to sign an agreement and send a draft to the co-writer for approval & then we both sign. Once the work is done to our satisfaction, I always make sure it is copyrighted as per our agreement. Lastly, in my view, the co-writer in this instance is in the wrong. You contributed far more than the melody. He/she is not free to just yank the re-written lyrics and get someone else to write music. You could concievably, if the 'new' song makes money, claim a portion of that for yourself. But, if there isn't any income coming from the 'new' or 'old' song, seeing an entertainment lawyer and establish your rights could be costly. I hope that makes some sense. This is all just opinion, by the way. If you are really concerned, then either see a lawyer, or get an agreement signed now so you can get on with your creative life. cheers Hummin'bird ------------------ Vikki Flawith, Canadian Singer/Songwriter & Voice Teacher This bird sings at: www.vikkiflawith.com Vikki on MySpace Hummingbird's Wise Bird's Blog The Shy Singer-Songwriter's Blog The Shy Singer-Songwriter's Newsletter
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Here is just one source that might help everyone understand these issues. This was written by Donald Passman, Attorney, and taken from https://www.taxi.com/faq/copyright/copyright-concepts.html ********************************************* **What Do You Own? How about this one: You and Louie sit down together to write a composition, and you write only the music while Louie writes only the lyrics. Suppose you don't like Louie's lyrics and want to take your music and write with somebody else. Can you? My partner Payson Wolff once told me that creating a joint work is like adding water to a ball of clay and squishing it; it's not so easy to separate the two afterward. My partner Bruce Ramer uses the analogy of scrambling the white and the yolk of the egg together. As you may be starting to guess, the law isn't what you would intuitively think. It says that, even though two people create separate, distinct parts, they each own an interest in the whole work, not just their own contribution. Thus, Louie owns half the music and half the lyrics, and so do you. So you can't just pick up and leave him. Even if you add new lyrics, he still has a percentage of the song. Does this sound like an absurd result? To some extent, yes; but if you get into dividing up works where the contributions aren't so easily defined as music and lyrics (which is 99% of the time), the alternative is even more impossible. Think, for example, about all the elements that go into making a film. What part is the screenwriter's? The director's? The producer's? The wardrobe designer's? Or what about a song where three people work on the lyrics, while two work on both music and lyrics? ****************************************** [This message has been edited by Liszt Laughing (edited 12-17-2005).]
Boo...my name is Doug
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Ya, Kaley, I would get a legal opinion before I did anything with the melody. You may or may not have created a joint work, but if you did, your co-writer could come back to haunt you. You probably can get out of the whole thing by having something signed in writing where you both renouce your ownership of the other's contributions, but again, I'd get an attorney's help. Stu might not charge too much, I dunno.
[This message has been edited by Liszt Laughing (edited 12-17-2005).]
Boo...my name is Doug
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I don't know much about co-writing and agreements but I do know if I had a complete lyric written and someone offered to put a melody to it and I didn't like the melody,I don't think I could be forced to give him/her ownership in my song.I would feel free to write or get written another melody that I was happy with.If the lyrics and melody were written together at the same time,each contributing a share of the words and melody,that would be a different matter.
I am sure I've read on JPF where lyric writers have had several melody writers writing melodies to the same song, with the intention of choosing the best melody to go with.I could be wrong,I was once before LOL.
Everett
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Everett,
You are wrong. At least according to statutory law and common law in the US. Please research this on your own. I know, as Passman said, it's intuitive that you may feel you can just take your lyrics and leave, but it's not that simple, depending on a lot of factors. And while the courts can be all over the place on this subject (and of course if there are questions about a specific instance, you should get legal advice), there is case law out there that I've read that says that even if you created the lyrics in a different time and place than when they were merged with a melody, if the lyrics were created with the goal in mind to someday add a melody, then those lyrics can become a joint work if added to a melody.
People do not have to sit down together in order to create a joint work. The seperate contributions can be created anyplace and anytime, independent of one another. When they are merged, they can still be considered a joint work if all the qualifying factors are there.
If you don't have any prior agreements (such as a songwriter's agreement as Truman suggested), preferably in writing, then when you ask someone to put a melody to your lyrics, you are creating a situation (in the US anyway) where you may no longer solely own your lyrics. And it doesn't matter whether you like the melody or not.
[This message has been edited by Liszt Laughing (edited 12-17-2005).]
Boo...my name is Doug
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Hi Linda...and thanks for your thoughts. I will run this by Stu..I didn't realize we had an Attorney visiting the boards,...but if he can make suggestions..that would be super. Ya know...I saw red when I saw my name in print the other night on the net...and I'm now calmed down...I didn't count to 10 or wait 24 hours...I reacted.....because I thought to myself...here I was keeping my mouth shut... ...I didn't badmouth...on the net....And as much as I could....I let it go.....but...it's frustrating...and now after reading these posts....I'm asking myself a lot of questions...which I need answers for...so I guess it is good I've asked. Thanks Linda...very much..... best to ya... Kaley http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=8404 http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=6469 http://www.flashfast.com/kids/ http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kwwg
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Hi Liz....thanks for that information....
I definitely need to get some advice now....
as that information has me asking other questions.....
thanks gal ......
Kaley.......
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heheh - if I'm Liz - I'm a guy
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Everitt, At this point I'm not certain (legally) what's allowed and what's not. But yes...You are right that many times.. a lyric is written ...and folks may have different melodies ....( I've heard it gets complicated but it is done).... and I'd think if someone was in the process of a collaboration and they did not care for the direction of the lyrics.....or the direction of the melody...or the melody that was presented,or the lyric that was presented, they should be able to say....They didn't like it.... I think many of us have had collaborations that have NOT worked.....and that very thing has happened. But if you go back and re-read what I wrote above....that was NOT the situation..in this case. I was profusely thanked for writing the melody...told how much they loved it... how beautiful it was..... It was put on their own personal radio play list...and then weeks later...I received this request. & Everitt, I did have some imput on the lyrics... Thanks...for stopping by..... best...... Kaley... Boy.. Liz...some serious food for thought!!!...... I think many of us who are really serious about writing...take the administrative end...too casually..... I'm guilty.... I will check into this more....I appreciate...all your effort... thank you very much........ Kaley....
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Thank God I can write my own melodies and lyrics,if what Liz says is true.I'd be even afraid of posting lyrics on a board,someone might write a melody to it and claim half the song.You might have in mind a love song melody and someone puts a rap melody(which I hate) to it and you are stuck with it,give me a break.
Kaley,your case might be different as you even wrote some of the lyrics,which that person should not be allowed to use unless you are given credit in the song,what ever percentage you agree on.I was approached by a person who was stuck with half the lyrics written and could get no further.He had the melody,the first verse and chorus,I left the verse in tact,rewrote the chorus and wrote a second verse.He wanted to give me 50% of the song but I said 25% was plenty,seeing he had the melody and 33% of the words,he was happy and I was happy.
I once entered a songwriting contest where you wrote lyrics to an existing melody,there was only one winner,so what happened to all the other lyrics that were written to that melody,could they all claim a share of the finished song?I don't think so.So why should a poorly written melody be able to claim a share in a well written lyric if that melody is rejected.(Kaley,don't take me wrong, I'm not saying your melody was poorly written,quite the contrary,it appears it was well received.If someone asked me to write lyrics to a beautiful melody and I wrote crappy lyrics to it,I don't see anyone forcing that person to give me a share in that song,so why should it be forced on a lyric writer when the roles are reversed. I have heard songs where there were poor lyrics to a great melody and vice versa,but I just assume that both were written by the same person who was stronger in lyrics or music.Some songs even work when one part of the song is strong enough to survive the weak part,but one would wonder how well the song would do if both parts were equally strong.
Everett
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Everett, I don't think we are disagreeing... In fact.....I have had collaborations dissolve because..we saw things differently.... heard things differently...etc....... It was the "timing"...and "the follow through" response AFTER I sent the COMPLETED melody that was different from what you are giving reference to. ..& Everett, (whether it was legal or not)..I WENT OVERBOARD in my respone to co-writer... and couldn't have made it any plainer... ..that it was FINE with me....that they had a SECOND version (second melody)...of this song...and TO GO FOR IT.....but that I felt it would be foolish to sign off on the first version...as if I had 'nothing' to do with it..... I don't think we're really disagreeing at all.... bottom line...I need to get some legal advice...... so I will at least know...what I should do with the song and the way it is showing on the net. I can't exactly go into his/her web site and remove the song ![[Linked Image]](http://www.justplainfolks.org/ubb/biggrin.gif) (By the way...you seem more than fair... in your percentages.. .....)... What I've learned coming out of this is... (slap on the hand, Kaley again)...If I'm serious, than I need to take the business end of it more seriously..... Thanks Everett.. Glad you stopped by..... best..... Kaley http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=8404 http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=6469 http://www.flashfast.com/kids/ http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kwwg
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If you guys are interested in reading more about joint works, this is a great read. You really have to study it, but it should help solidify in theory in your mind where joint works comes from and how really complicated the whole thing is. It's complicated because a lot of the application of the law regarding joint works is a patchwork of court cases: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/metaschool/fisher/joint/links/articles/lape.html#ancho r4400920 Again, I am not offering advice, nothing I type should be relied upon in decision making, and in any specific instance (such as a question about should you post a lyric on the internet) you should seek a qualified legal opinion. The reason I looked the above up was to give substance to what I thought to be true. This is in regards to something ECA said. In order to have a joint work, the general rule is the authors of the joint work have to intend that they become co-authors, co-owners of the work. I say general rule, because in a specific instance/case that may not be true. There seems to not be complete consensus about that general rule being the correct view of the law. Anyhow, taken from the above link: "Courts have narrowed the scope of joint work doctrine by: 1) requiring intent on the part of the creators of a work that they be joint authors and joint owners, rather than simply intent that their contributions be merged; and 2) requiring that each joint author make a copyrightable, or even more than a copyrightable, contribution."There is a difference between creating a work that intends to be merged with another work (I.E. writing lyrics that intend to have a melody added at some point), and intent to merge those lyrics with a specific melody writer whereas you share billing/ownership in the unified work as co-writers. So (keeping in mind this is a generality, and a specific case may be viewed by a court differently), if you simply post a lyric on the internet (without soliciting for or appearing to solicite a co-writer), and somebody comes by and without your knowledge and permission creates a melody to the lyrics, that probably isn't going to be considered by a court as a joint work. Your lyrics probably can't be hi-jacked that way. But again, that's a *probably*. Study the above linked article and you will see why I say *probably*. Posting a lyric on the internet, to me, is not completely a zero risk venture anyway. If you post and ask for critiques, and you change a line in the lyric to what someone suggested, is the suggestion maker now a co-writer? Some of the court rulings as far as joint works seem to protect against that outcome, as far as requiring a copyrightable contribution, intent to be joint authors, etc., but in a specific case, who knows? [This message has been edited by Liszt Laughing (edited 12-19-2005).]
Boo...my name is Doug
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Hey also Kaley - when you find out anything, let us know how this went...Thanks.
Boo...my name is Doug
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Hi, Kaley, This is a very complex subject - with many gray areas...Wish I could offer some legal advice...but I would echo the advice here to ask an attorney. Collarboration should be a process where there is trust and respect. I am saddened when I hear of these communication breakdowns or misunderstandings in regards to collaboration. Let me know what happens. Good Luck and Merry Christmas to you Emily
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Yes, Kaley, let us know the conclusion/resolution to your dilemma. We can all learn from your experiences. Can't you just email your concerns to the person involved? What have they said about it so far? Wishing you a Very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, www.cdbaby.com/cd/dawnmusic [This message has been edited by Heradia (edited 12-19-2005).]
PEACE!
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Hi LL? ...I just can't seem to reply without attaching a name...it just feel's strange..... Thank you for all your help...suggestions...information from sources...very appreciated..... I'll see what I can find out...like I mentioned above...to Everett.., I can't very well....go into his/her music site...and remove...the song showing my name attached to it... ....so I have to get an answer. Thanks LL..... kk Excuse combined post...y'all I don't like to do that either....... Emily, Hi and thanks for the thoughts.... Yes...this one took me by surprise....i think mostly...because...the song topic is close to my heart..that I put my being into the melody....and I also have contact with at least two of the non-profit organizations..that would have at least listened to the song....They might not have used it....but if it was indeed strong enough someone might have.....maybe on a local level in any case. & Being I'd said "go for it" with the 2nd version(legally or not)....I'd have thought that would have satisfied him/her. Co-writing can be tough because there's two or more people involved...each with his/her own mind set......but....This caught me off guard....because...it had gone so well.. There had been good communication...back and forth....etc. ......so anyhoo.... thanks for the thoughts...support... best to you..... kk Hi Heradia, hmmmm....well I wrote back 3 times...I think in July...(don't have it in front of me)....and the last one... was pleasant but firmly stated ...to go for it...but that I felt I could not sign off on the copyright of the first version because it would be foolish to do so.... I did not receive a response back on that one..until by way of a post....dated another month later.. ..."said party"....gave a link to his/her new version of the song....and thanked me for working on it...but he/she had chosen someone else to do the song. No, I haven't followed up on that yet..... I'm thinking now ....after everyone's responses...and just giving it some time......that I basically need to find out if that melody is mine......to rework... and whether I can keep the title... have it reworked in a similar subject...or whether I have to avoid the subject...matter all together.. The way the chorus Melody goes...it begs for the title...so I don't know. The melody might be good enough to not cast aside.. don't know .... Anyways...I thank you..... & If I can let you all know what the result is without...giving the specific names...etc....I will .... Although I was/am frustrated about it, I will not mention the name.....or badmouth...him/her. Best to you all...and thanks... Kaley http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=8404 http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=6469 http://www.flashfast.com/kids/ http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kwwg [This message has been edited by Kaley Willow (edited 12-20-2005).]
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Don't worry about reusing the title,you CAN NOT copyright a title.You CAN NOT copyright an idea.You can copyright how you develope an idea or story.How many songs are written on the I LOVE YOU theme?They all say the same thing but say it differently.What ever that song was about,the idea or theme,say it again differently,using your tune.You might even say it better than the first version. Don't let it get you down.
Everett
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You've got other songs...Just let it go...I say this because I have been screwed in the past and, at the level it sounds like you are at now, you're probably going to look back at that song in five years and think it's so small amongst the work you've produced by then.
I think it's great some people have luck with internet collaboration but, for me, I have had bad luck so I think it should only be done with extreme caution...
BTW, was the person you wrote with a minor? Because if that's the case you may not have been able to make a contract with her in the first place...Wow, though, too much of a headache
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I love reading these old posts!
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"The standard by which I now measure the things in my life is the following: If I was on my death bed, or if I knew I had a short time to live, would this issue be important? If the answer is no.. I don't sweat it at all. If the answer is Yes, you better believe it goes to the front of the order of today's business!" -Brian Austin Whitney
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