JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Problem I foresee with ai

Anything that requires self control, discipline,, honesty , responsibility, integrity, humans will fail at.

The only hope is that the artist has some way of differentiating themselves from others.

You could argue that people have been stealing from each other forever. .ie the stones

Possibly only true innovators like Eddie van Halen,
Prince etc will rise to top cause ai can't copy what's new and unseen before, not till after.

Perhaps live music will make a comeback.

Logic is yes/no. Either one or zero. or good/bad.

Paint AI this way: Hate it/love it.

Idea for JPF:

Create a forum exclusively for AI inspired posts. Make the MP3 forum...no AI permitted.

Bill

Lol great idea , but then people will be here talking no songs.

Also, if I re recorded some if the music it generated. Played arranged and sang it myself, how would anybody know?

They only know now cause I'm telling them. and of course it's glitches.

I won't be able to get that sound, that costs too much money.

But it be more authentic if it was me performing it.

I'm just experimenting I have.no.way of really knowing how it compares.

Your only going to get what it can do. So it levels the playing field .

The main way people can know on a site like this is, Nobody would be paying big money for demos

Daltry weighs in

https://www.mundoamerica.com/entertainment/2024/03/13/65f186fce85ece78528b457a.html

"Life isn't looking down - it's about looking up

Thanks for the hook Rog...

I'm writing that soon

You mean that you will be cutting and pasting that soon.
And a software will be writing it.

Yeah, I like that. So that's...something/someone inspires us, and we use it as a spring board...onward.
Same story since cave-women scratch art on the stone walls.

No I'll be developing the hook into a full song.

And I can do it all myself. When you write you don't have to have software do iy

And I haven't seen much interesting lyrics it had written it all seems disjointed and unconnected

I suggest you try one so we can see how much the user matters.

It can't write better songs than me right now

I googled "infinite pointless rabbit hole" and the quote shown above came up.
LOL

Hey! Type in "infinite pointless rabbit hole" and see what you get. I get a co-write on it.
LOL

Two spots where I think I matter in the process

I go in with a ding that I have already written with melody. It then feeds off what I have done. It's a language after all and a feel. And it feeds on the ideas

The second is knowing what you want out of it, and being able to sift through [naughty word removed] and find what you like.

I'm. Curious to see what others bring to the table I. Their creations

If you use the same tools as someone who simply types what you suggest above to create a song and YOU can't compete with it, that sounds like a YOU problem, not an A.I. problem. Do better with the same tools, or don't complain because you were never going to succeed anyway.

John, did a realistic sounding Piano sample library replace real piano's in the world? No, it simply expanded the number of people who could make music with those sounds who could not afford a piano or could not lug a real piano to a gig. It is a tool which people with more talent should be able to do something BETTER than a hack using that tool. If not, then why would someone deserve shutting out anyone who can't afford to make music without that tool?

Having access to sounds/ samples totally different Brian. No different than using a pipe organ, electric guitar, etc. Just another sound for the musician to compose and create music from. The udio technology replaces the composer and does the thinking for him. Not even a close analogy Brian. I use the Ivory Piano samples. I still have to compose and record the same as if I were using a Steinway.

John

Not so fast with udio John lol

That's not eliminating anyone yet but it's what it's means for the future .

Ufio is an Astonishing new commodity but it's going to grow . Right now it's for amateurs

Once you work with it fur hours you realize it's what it is . Nice reference not the record not the product.

But nobody else with exception of bill draper had tried anything with it

And the pros will always have the better mouse trap

AI is going to go where it goes.

A lot of people seem to have emotion based narratives about AI, that shoe horn it into an outcome that they want it to conform to.
An outcome that makes them feel secure and protected.

My personal belief is that AI is limitless in terms of power and capacity. Elon Musk said that AI would be smarter than humans by 2025. And then...

I dont think that it will ever have sentience, but as I've said before...I think it will be able to mimick/emulate/imitate anything utterly convincingly, no matter how seemingly nuanced.

My suggestion...Don't invent AI in your mind. Step back from it and watch closely... and use it to whatever extent that you can.
There are people developing AI right now who are thinking things that will never even occur to us until the market presents them.

Sunset Poet
Oracle of this and other unwanted advices.

That's a reasonable assessment, yeah it is impossible to know. It's just waiting for something to happen then reacting is often too late.

It's I feel it inevitable that people will devalue artists, thinking anyone can do it.

Just was thinking about Taylor Swift.

She's famous for the connection she has with young girls. Her songs are why she's famous. And her lyrics.

She can't get there with udio. It needs to be her, And her pov.

I think of Springsteen. He still demands high prices because of who he is, Because the enormous Impact he had on hiz audience. And the live shows.

What remains to be the solve for question. Will people relate to digital artist.

They can still be entertained , and maybe moved by it. But there's nobody to connect with.

Artists give voice to people who don't know how

Helps people to know some other human understands. Not sure ai can do that

The same straw man argument you are making was ALSO made about samples. No more real pianos. Sequencing? No more real players. Auto Tune? No more real singers. etc. etc. It is always the same thing. If I use A.I. to play my drum tracks because I simply can't play drums and generic "tracks and loops" are quite tired at this point, then how is that a danger to real drummers? It will not sound or look like a real drummer live. It will not sound like a real drummer, in most cases, in most genres of music. Real enthusiasts in Jazz are not going to be fooled by A.I. nor are they fooled even by a great programmer when someone uses Sequencers and Quantizing to keep better time. People are exposing Auto Tune all the time. They just busted Don Henley singing to tracks! Then again, if people KNOW he isn't singing live (which most do or soon will at this point) and they STILL want to see the man live, why is that a problem in the end? Using technology to help us do what we can't, or to help us realize our vision, or even if it is just to participate in the joy of making music (which harms exactly no one) why the fear? As for computer and technology assisted music making, it has already been around since music instruments started being made in factories and has exploded with Electric instruments, amplification, reverb, midi, multitrack recordings on and on and on. We symphonies replaced by any of these things? Nope. Can I enjoy a soundtrack composed using plug-ins and computers? Yes! But none of those things, which ALL exist, have prevented anyone from playing or composing or writing music. Even without A.I., there is an oversupply of human made music to an exponential degree over demand. The stuff real humans make is super impressive and getting better all the time thanks to various technologies becoming more available to more creators. This is no different. The sky is not falling my friend. I want to live in a world where tools are available to help the most people participate and enjoy making any kind of art their sill and ideas can create. Even if it is just pressing buttons, playing a keyboard on an acoustic piano IS ADVANCED technology. 99.9% could never build one if they all disappeared tomorrow. Even though it is an inanimate object which untalented people can still use to make it play beautiful notes, all the other tools are still available for everyone else to also use to make music. Music for all, the talented and untalented alike. We already have more amazing man made music than any person can consume in 1000s of lifetimes, yet we hope people will make millions times billions more using any means available. It's all good. The music "business" has ALWAYS been fraught with abuse and villains. When they can no longer make any money from it, I hope they will take their destruction and abuse elsewhere and leave music alone.

Brian

Respectfully, I dont completely agree with your view.

I use TOONTRACKS software a lot. EZ drums,bass,keys. They are all great and getting better all the time. They are tools in the manner that you describe. They dont write the songs for me. They do write piano parts, but I usually have to tweak them, change them, cut and combine them etc. If I were John and played the piano and knew music theory beyond the basics of major keys...I could be a lot more effective with it as a tool. John knows how to add "color" to a major chord progression with sus4ths and minor7ths, etc. I cant seem to ever get the hang of that.

Nonetheless, metaphorically speaking, me using TOONTRACKS is like a soldier strapping on an exo-skeleton that enables him to run 30 miles an hour. I bring in the plug-in into my DAW and presto, I am a piano composer/producer with a few clicks. (sort of)

AI, to my view, is different. It appears that it will have the capacity to replace the soldier altogether and run 100 miles an hour.


We'll see.

That's the main difference it's a artist for hire in a sense. Your a business owner /bar , you hire an artist to work for you.

In some ways it's a similar model as fiverr. You could get fiverr to do everything except put their name on it

Usually it's a lyricist hiring musicians to record and produce their would be song.

Here, fiverr is replaced by software who probably does it better and one price gets you all fiverr can offer.

Id still rather work with other musicians, but....

Well gang, I did my part. I demonstrated how a songwriter can use this in reality. I've gotten more soundckick listens than I probably had ever in one week .

But the MO here is all talk no action.

I mean most of you are not writers but ud at least think to try letting it ghost write for you

The hilarious part if your discussing doomsday scenarios , but you don't create music anyway

Removing all work . looking for songwriters to mingle with

Now I know why Fd likes AI so much...it reminds him of his song post replies....mostly 1 and 0....LOL
Steve

Dayd

Dom,
Couple of things...

Have you ever heard of "contract with the world?"
It's when people do something and then they decide that everyone else has an obligation to reciprocate the action in some way that they set forth.
It's a mental disorder.
You just made yourself a poster girl for it.

Also, Mike Z brought all this forward, not you.
When he did, I oracle-ized that it would bring on a deluge of songs from people who would proclaim themselves songwriters as they presented product that a software actually produced.
You have immediately become the personification of my enlightened prediction. And...you appear drunk on thinking that ...what the software can do has something to do with what you can do.

Look at it empirically...you have decades of no completed songs and now within a week, you have a dozen or so and you are leaving us nose-pickers behind and off to to join the real songwriters.

I'm sure that delusions of grandeur are fun, but you might want to reel it back a little.

Stated another way...dont make it so obvious that you are nutty as a squirrel turd. But funny

Love and kisses, LOL
Marty

Mike z brought it forward I suspect fir a reason

And talking about it is not using jt

But I guess these forums have always been about people who used to write but not any more

And the demographic is 70+. So I shouldn't be surprised.

I did about as well as. Can be done with that thing. I don't need it. Perhaps a paid version it will improve.

Keep talking about how its going to cramp your songwriting styles

Gotta be an active forum somewhere

Well Dom
When you find the songwriter promise land and make it big,
dont forget to stop back by and say hello to the little people from your past, every so often.

Say hello to Bruce for me.

It's about the hobby of it and the point of it . Big career or money not in eqaution
But it is a musical site.

This is not Facebook, I've seen enough of that [naughty word removed]

Tell Leddy I sent you...

https://homerecording.com/bbs/threads/trump-on-trial.426355/

I been on there before they don't care about songwritutng there. And they talk down to you as if they are. Bob clearmountain

Fitting you linked political sections

Well Dom, it is. And the average age may be 105 or so, but I tell ya...finding anything better is a tall order.
Us dinotards will mostly stop and give a real listen.

But it has been my experience with the open mics, that as the age drops by decades, the its-all-about-me delusions become exponential. No matter how bad they are, I am invisible and my only purpose for being on this planet is to be an insignificant extra in the story of them. And if they are young enough for the mom to be there, the encounter turns into an SNL skit. I have noticed these various websites to look about the same

I dont have 500 fans on SoundCloud. I have 400 people who think that I am their fan, but utterly insignificant and of no worth otherwise.
And I have 100 people trying to get me to pay them for promotional services.
At least when I come here you make me feel noticed, albeit insulted.

Good luck in your search

Music listeners have always been all about me. That's the point of being and Artist and writer.

Your supposed to be servicing them not yourself


That's one of the many thousands of reasons why they go nowhere.

If your up there or posting saying hey look at me, your doing it wrong .

Some posers do that, but music is about what's in it for them

Three essentials for music: the composer, the performer and the audience. Udio will at least have an audience.

John

Lol funny some of their tracks have cheering.

It's amateurs to me. Sounds great no doubt, a bitt wavy and robotic but some sound great

But much like band in a box or any like that, you can never seem to find a perfect match.

Plus it sounds too much like every big song you ever heard

Well alrighty then.
Good luck in your search for dedicated songwriters and music listeners.

I am sadly resigned to writing songs for solely whatever enjoyment that the writing provides me.

simply a reply to you "whats in it for them" mentality. Nobody listens to music saying oh boy. i wanna hear how good they are. they go in saying damn i hope i hear some good stuff and see a great show

but u did say u do open mics, thats really where my comment should have gone. if doing open mics its about the listener. no need to get all revved up and nowhere to go

Not sure what you mean...

In my experience;

Open mics are first and foremost about the person putting on the open mic, They are usually looking for a few bucks and a way to self promote. Nothing wrong with that. It's takes some effort to get an OM set up and done, and they deserve that.

After that, the audience is usually predominantly open mic-ers who are biding their time until everybody else (background noise) gets out of the way of their performance.

Not all, Many are very nice people who are just enjoying a passion, a beer, a night out.

As the age of the performers drops towards teens, the delusions of grandiosity intensify.

Such is life....for me.

The takeaway for me...When I get up to see what something sounds like through speakers and monitors in a "room," that experience alone has to be rewarding enough for the effort to get there, because chances arent great that anyone will actually listen. Occasionally they do.

If your experience is different, please elaborate.

Marty

but its still developing chops. I agree the audience is like a soundclick audience,
all people doing the same. But in the end its the same approach, practice makes perfect

interestingly, im at a libray, logged on to udio, and there were two users who had logged in recently lol. Not that 2 is alot, but at a library in remote wherver, two people.

it think alot of people will be using this, that's the danger too many cooks in the kitchen and the chef not getting his due

Being a guy who doesn’t play an instrument very well I find it frustrating not being able to record the song I “hear” in my head when I write it. I use all sorts of helpers/tools to get as close as possible to what I envision. Like Marty, I love Toontrack’s EZ Keys, EZ Drummer and EZ Bass. I don’t think they are AI based, but they do come pretty close to AI. The good thing about those products is that I stay in control of what I’m doing. They follow my chord progression. I can modify the piano, drum or bass line any way I want to. I’ve also used Dreamtonics which is an AI based vocal generator. Here again, I stay in control of things and I can define not only the words of the song but also the vocal melody and a bunch of other things. It’s like having a singer in your studio and you telling them exactly the way you want them to sing. Very helpful if you can’t sing. I’ve also worked with Udio. That’s totally different because it does everything for you. You can enter your own lyrics but it can also write lyrics for you. I find Udio helpful if I’m looking for a musical sound, a missing melody for a section of my song or alternative lyric ideas. It lets me hear things I probably never would have thought of myself. In a way it’s like having a band in your studio making random suggestions what the melody, sound, vocals, instrumentation, etc. could look like. I can imagine that in the future some of these suggestions might lead me down a path with my songwriting and recording that I wouldn’t have thought of before. For me, Udio is like the other tools … they all help me write and record my words, my melodies, my songs.

Rob
Your post is stated with great clarity.
And thank you very much for bringing up DREAMTONICS. Sounds very useful.

Marty

Ez drummer is great no doubt about it

I'm a good air drummer so I hear beats and fills in my head. Then I say ok do they have one like that, alot of times they do it's so editable.

Closest thing to an actual drummer, and yes if using pre formed beats it's ai at some level.

I will say ezdrummer does rocking better than soft.

Ez keys I dont have same love for.

It's harder for harmony instruments. much more dynamics Involved.

But I found trying to find patterns that fit your song is hard

You either get a busy part that sounds awkward, or just something that plays the chords fairly simply.

But just have piano in there doing something doesn't interest me

I gave up on ez keys along time ago

That is not the shortcoming of the program Dom. That, as you say about AI in general, is the user.
It is not a click and go.

Try this...
Establish a rhythm with EZD and your singing. Establish a melody with EZB and/or your guitar if your play.
Feed that into EZK BANDMATE and see what it suggests.
If something sounds pretty good, then go to EZK MIDI and manicure to fit what you are doing.
If nothing does, then search EZKeys for something within that works reasonably well and manicure that.

It will come down to the clarity of what you feed BANDMATE, your knowledge of musical theory and construction and the talent of your ear.
John S would likely be the most satisfied user of us all because he knows what he wants and he knows how it is built and he can play it with his own hands.

Try that or keep complaining or let AI do it all for you and keep complaining.
Whichever you prefer.

Marty

Ps...I should be finished with a song I wrote called JUST ANOTHER ERRAND, either today or tomorrow.
You can judge the result that I get for yourself.

I actually don’t think that Toontrack’s EZ products have anything to do with AI because they are based on midi and algorithms, but I may be wrong. I personally find EZ Keys to be the most valuable of the Toontrack products. I once used EZ Keys to write this piano tune: https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=13310538. At the time I was hearing the song with guitars and drums that I wasn’t able to record myself. Luckily, I found a great guitarist/producer who recognized the potential of the song and used my existing piano track and vocals and added the missing instruments on top. So, in the end the song sounded like this:
Toontrack and some of the AI tools are enabling me to produce demos that are creating opportunities like this one for me that would be impossible without them. Like I previously said, they help me write and record my words, melodies and songs.

I did not say that TT was AI.
I don't know where "computing" stops and AI begins.

It appears...that in both cases of TT and Edio (sp), the user gives the program some prompts. From that, both programs generate calculative associations and produce a program generated result. In one case it is a completed result. In the other, the user seems to get more involved.

Its all magic to me.

Both seem to generate artificial intelligence to me.
Official categorical labels?...I dunno.

Btw...song is real well done. Piano lays in nicely.

It might be semantics and getting caught up on definitions.
But ez drummer liets you put a drummer in your song whether you know drums or not.
It's not a real person responding it's programmed.

At that pov it's artificial. Just not what we're seeing now is.

Using A click is kinda artificial cause you wouldn't be staying in time on your own

So you woke up this morning and somehow summoned a genie who said he would grant you one song--and all you needed to do was just say some words describing that song.

You say those words, he then makes a few weird genie moves, and suddenly there's a new file on your computer. It's one of the most compelling, beautiful things you've ever heard. You can hear some tiny influence of other artists, but you played it for your copyright lawyer friend who said, "No, not any record artist we can find, not on any streaming site, this is an original work. Is it yours?"

What do you tell him?

--but I don't really care about this response. That's meant rhetorically, as a philosophical thing to ponder.

--and PLEASE...try to suspend your disbelief and go with this premise for a second, okay?

What I would like to know is who among us would throw out the file and not keep it? Doesn't the fact that it is beautiful and you love it mean more than whether or not you wrote it or "the gods" wrote it? Wouldn't you want that piece of music to remain part of your life?

Why are so many of us getting hung up on attribution, ownership, and the likes? Hung up and willing to turn away something beautiful, simply because it didn't issue forth from our own brain? --on the surface, sounds rather egocentric...

If I can be part of a process that brings something beautiful, unique, or at least really interesting into the world, do I care so much if I am the sole-owner, co-creator, or someone who figured out some magic combination of words to bring forth the creation?

That's the main difference between a faked term paper and AI music production: with AI music production, most folks aren't judging you on "how it came to be" --they are simply responding to what they hear. Unless you go out of your way to go, "hey I "wrote" this, what do you think?" --then they might inquire about your process in manifesting said music.

But with this approach: "listen to this..." --most folks will respond to what they hear, and perhaps comment on liking it/disliking it...

Which is my point. Don't be imagining everyone will be using music AI in the same way: every one has different needs. People who have little interest in being writers/composers might enjoy having the AI do it all. God forbid they have any fun.

Others, like Rob B, a seasoned composer, might use Udio


Let me speak for myself. I consider myself a decent composer, and a lover of good music generally. I have been having a gas using Udio. It comes up with some AMAZING music I would never have been able to imagine. But I like it, and by process of "default" it is mine, and I did NOT write one note of it; and I, unlike many of you, have NO PROBLEM with that, because the piece of music, as a thing, in and of itself, has a right to exist, and I WANT it to exist, cuz it is good, it is beautiful, and THAT means more to me than sorting out "who did what, who owns what, etc..."


Mike

I can second that. Yes, definitely. But so far, for me, Udio has not generated a complete song that I like as a whole, only parts of a song. But those parts are sometimes really amazing/inspiring.

Rob, consider creating more "extensions" instead of just the two that Udio spits out for each 33 second increment. I have been creating 8 for each 33 sec addition. Usually, among these 8, there is one that is perfect. I have been building complete works in this way. Creating more possible extensions/variations has been my short term solution to this problem that I also encounter. We have high standards and that's a good thing!

What it is Mike, it's a different art form.

Instead of taking the breath taking pictures, your the guy taking those pictures and putting them into a different type of product like a montage.

It's an art based on what choices you used. The description of what you want may be the creative spark no one else has

The thing is people arenIt going to recognize the art form yet. People will say I'm good with computers I. Can do better.

People just won't be saying damn he's so talented the way an organic artist would be viewed.

I think it's a new art form

100%

To each his own "time scale" for adapting to new tech...