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#1184047 01/25/23 07:49 AM
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A I is taking over in many places replacing man, now A I is writing songs, will it be singing songs next. The beast that the bible speaks of that speaks will be A I, they are even now replacing the womb for having babies.

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Everett wrote


The beast that the bible speaks of that speaks will be A I

No it is not


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VNORTH2 #1184070 01/26/23 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by VNORTH2
Everett wrote


The beast that the bible speaks of that speaks will be A I

No it is not
Do you have inside information, what will it be. LOL

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Originally Posted by Everett Adams
Originally Posted by VNORTH2
Everett wrote


The beast that the bible speaks of that speaks will be A I

No it is not
Do you have inside information, what will it be. LOL

No I don't have any inside information and neither does anyone else on planet earth...I have no problem if this is your opinion but when you state it as if it is fact, that borders on conspiracy theory and I will challenge it...non believers will probably just laugh at it


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Not laugh.
But something seems awry when someone jumps from one boogey man to the next, the moment they avail themselves.
And the fear, that collectively a group of people who deem themselves as righteous, desire to push these things to self fulfilling catastrophic prophesies is frightening for all of us.

The Western World has been in essentially a 80 year peace cycle that began when WW2 ended. Several localized war theaters, but not "full-ons." We have been extremely fortunate to live in such a relatively tranquil time period, in a country largely untouched except for a small group steering planes into buildings on one occasion and other random criminal acts. Obama got that very right.

There are things moving into place to be concerned with. But the best plan is to stay optimistic and try to stop them. Cheering on the possibility of widespread destruction is hopelessly, if not immorally, misguided.

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Originally Posted by Sunset Poet
Not laugh.
But something seems awry when someone jumps from one boogey man to the next, the moment they avail themselves.
And the fear, that collectively a group of people who deem themselves as righteous, desire to push these things to self fulfilling catastrophic prophesies is frightening for all of us.

The Western World has been in essentially a 80 year peace cycle that began when WW2 ended. Several localized war theaters, but not "full-ons." We have been extremely fortunate to live in such a relatively tranquil time period, in a country largely untouched except for a small group steering planes into buildings on one occasion and other random criminal acts. Obama got that very right.

There are things moving into place to be concerned with. But the best plan is to stay optimistic and try to stop them. Cheering on the possibility of widespread destruction is hopelessly, if not immorally, misguided.



You’re right Marty, perhaps the correct word is snicker.

As a Christian, I am insulted and outraged when people like Hal Lindsey use the Bible for their own purposes..often for financial gain...much of what they spout is directed to fellow Christians and not non-believers, Why? Christians will more than likely send him money and non-believers won’t give him the time of day. He, IMO is a con man like so many others...they all have their shtick in one form or another, particularly when it comes to prophecy. Christians want, so badly, to believe Christ is coming during their life time and the Lindseys of the world know that and prey upon their vulnerabilities.

Instead of telling the world of the good news of Jesus, he and others rant on about gloom and doom, armageddon, the mark of the beast etc most of which non-believers don’t care about and probably view as reasons to never accept Christ.

I personally don’t spend much time quoting Bible passages to non-believers..that’s when their eyes begin to glaze over. Instead I talk about why I accepted Jesus and the impact he has had in my life. Of that I can speak as an expert on the life of me. That is why I write songs such as “Why Should I Believe”..those are the questions I had before becoming a Christian

I accepted Christ within the last 20 years and am forever grateful that it happened that way..it has given me an understanding of the before and after. I wasn’t born into Christianity but chose it as an informed adult.

Steve


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Originally Posted by Everett Adams
A I is taking over in many places replacing man, now A I is writing songs, will it be singing songs next. The beast that the bible speaks of that speaks will be A I, they are even now replacing the womb for having babies.



I don't buy it. The AI music I've heard isn't better than incidental music they use in movie queues, but there it's pretty good at.

AI can simulate humans, but it has no soul, so it will never be that good, unless it plagiarizes. IN the field of art, AI art was being sued for infringement, I hear.

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Originally Posted by Pat Hardy
Originally Posted by Everett Adams
A I is taking over in many places replacing man, now A I is writing songs, will it be singing songs next. The beast that the bible speaks of that speaks will be A I, they are even now replacing the womb for having babies.



I don't buy it. The AI music I've heard isn't better than incidental music they use in movie queues, but there it's pretty good at.

AI can simulate humans, but it has no soul, so it will never be that good, unless it plagiarizes. IN the field of art, AI art was being sued for infringement, I hear.

Everything can be quantified and imitated convincingly. Even "soul."
Don't kid yourself, it's happening at a rapid pace.

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I think there will always be a market and an interest in human beings playing music.

Sure AI may one day get so good that it's just as good as the music we've created already,(nowhere near it yet) but that is not the lure of music anyway.

Music is about people, people communicating with other people.

Taylor Swift got famous because of her connection with young girls, they related to her. They wont relate to software, they might listen to something made by software.

But singing and playing instruments is not going anywhere. People are still learning how to play violins and cellos, and AI has practically mastered those instruments. And drums, drums have been simulated and mastered since the late 70's, but people are still buying drum kits and playing them, and bands are still forming with real drummers playing in them. It's about people.

For example, we could have a software showing a guy climbing mt everest, but there would still be an interest in an other human who is doing it.

We have simulated sports, which are very popular and people gamble on them, but there are still real people playing sports. it's still fascinating to other people.

Writing music from your own unique perspective based on your history and understanding of the world, is still interesting to other people.

I have no clue what music will sound like a thousand years from now, but I think it will always be interesting to watch somebody play an instrument, and hear what they create.

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[Linked Image from maxiaids.com]

I might have to start with this version of BIAB. I think the learning curve won't be so steep.

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Anyone who has 'tried' A.I. online... in the last, oh, six months, I have seen several mentions of an online A.I. generator and it was always the same one. I think it might have been chatGPT. Is that what you used? I was signing up to try it but it asked for my phone number after I had already given it my email and I don't care to give my phone number. What do you think about that? I have no idea where this software is based and if it's 'safe' or not.

I feel like I need to see results of this to know what's going on.

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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
For example, we could have a software showing a guy climbing mt everest, but there would still be an interest in an other human who is doing it.

I watched a Sunday morning show on a major network this morning. They said that 3 billion people around the world had played a video game in one form or another. The point of view that you express is not necessarily shared by newer generations. Younger people these days often dont want to deal with a human to get a car loan, for instance. They prefer the solitude of an app. The same mentality would not care what generated a song...only that they like it or not. (and could get it for free)

Anecdotal sidenote...The "millenials" get excited and angered quickly over the slightest insult to their humanity or that of (specific) others. Yet they don't seem to like interacting with each other very much. And there is this disproportionate affection across society for their dogs and cats, because the dogs and cats offer them unconditional love, no matter how screwy they are. (as long as the food keeps coming)

It all seems interlaced.

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I think it depends on the song, style and artist. I mentioned Taylor Swift fir a reason They DO care what she has to say, in as much that they would forgo a better song for a Taylor song. I know this cause I have younger generationers in my family.

My niece asked me to teach her guitar, and the main reason is cause Taylor Swift plays one.

And she's not paying 400 bucks to see anybody else, clearly she speaks to her.

Youngins are still the main target for musicsl instruments, old people no longer have interest.

On American idol the back story of the singer is more important than the actual singing.

It's about people. I don't deny the world has changed, and music itself is not as important as it once was.

As far as ai music my observations are the better the musician songwriter producer is, the better results they get. I have yet to see a talentless artist make a great recird with ai or software

People who play piano well do best with software.

Also take a look at YouTube youngins are still on there doing videos and instructionals on instruments and people who play real instruments get thousands of views, ai ers don't

I disagree with you , but I do agree apathy exists and it's a what's in it fir me, how can I be the star mentality out there, Facebook makes everybody there own imaginary star.

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Originally Posted by Sunset Poet
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
For example, we could have a software showing a guy climbing mt everest, but there would still be an interest in an other human who is doing it.

I watched a Sunday morning show on a major network this morning. They said that 3 billion people around the world had played a video game in one form or another. The point of view that you express is not necessarily shared by newer generations. Younger people these days often dont want to deal with a human to get a car loan, for instance. They prefer the solitude of an app. The same mentality would not care what generated a song...only that they like it or not. (and could get it for free)

Anecdotal sidenote...The "millenials" get excited and angered quickly over the slightest insult to their humanity or that of (specific) others. Yet they don't seem to like interacting with each other very much. And there is this disproportionate affection across society for their dogs and cats, because the dogs and cats offer them unconditional love, no matter how screwy they are. (as long as the food keeps coming)

It all seems interlaced.

You have some astute observations in there. Sadly. I have heard experts say that very thing about young people... much more introverted.

On a related sidenote. If the SHTF, who's going to labor? The young don't know how. And it's dirty. And they want so much given to them. They will panic. It won't be pretty. I don't mean to be a sourpuss about the young but it seems the truth.

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Singer songwriters have always been introverts. Nearly every single one of them, that's why they create, to have a voice.

The youth still play real musical instruments that's my main point.

Arenas are still being filled by young people, and if anybody is buying music it's young people nobody else.

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At the end of the 19th century, electricity revolutionized everything.
In the middle of the 20th, computers used electricity to commence revolutionizing everything.
Now we are at the beginning of the AI revolution. AI is going to take over decision making of everything, and linked machines will take many jobs.

The concerns that I have....
Who will program the disposition of AI and towards what ends?
What will happen to 8 billion people plus, many of whom have no real skills of any kind or easily replaceable skills with AI?

As for Taylor Swift, whom I admire, she began in one era, but is traversing into another. I don't know what will happen to people like Taylor.
I recall the Superbowl show where Prince (I think) was presented as a hologram. That technology (deep fake) will become stupefying in the future. There will be shows where machines can handle every aspect, including contractual arrangements and transportation.

Civilization is about to change dramatically.

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Originally Posted by DukeWill
On a related sidenote. If the SHTF, who's going to labor? The young don't know how. And it's dirty. And they want so much given to them. They will panic. It won't be pretty. I don't mean to be a sourpuss about the young but it seems the truth.

Not sure. In the West people seem to want something for nothing. In the East, I think that they still work very hard.
The East may take the lead in upcoming centuries. A lot of it will be done by robots.

Give or take a balloon being blown out of the sky. wink

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Change has always been part of popular music in all aspects of the industry. With modern technology and the social media info world change will happen even more rapidly each decade, but I think Fde is correct in that young people will always want/need their pop idols, thus the creative youth will always want to learn instruments, sing, and record music. There was a time when we knew only who we heard on the radio or saw on TV or live concerts. Today, there are so many Indi artists and alternative "this/that" that few idols, though exceptions last more than 3-5 years in popularity. Look at some of the young artists on Youtube that had millions of clicks a few years ago and now that they are more professional and have had short success, their click numbers have declined significantly..........the youth and new youth has other upcoming You-tubers or have moved on just like little kids that loved "Barney" look at him in disdain once a bit older. Fde is right on IMO.

steady-eddie

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Ummmm... What child was ever born with a proper work ethic, self control, a sense of responsibility, and a propensity toward self discipline?

I'm seeing a lot of musing about the direction children are taking these days, but never any serious thoughts about the accountability parents should have taken decades ago...

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Originally Posted by JAPOV
Ummmm... What child was ever born with a proper work ethic, self control, a sense of responsibility, and a propensity toward self discipline?

I'm seeing a lot of musing about the direction children are taking these days, but never any serious thoughts about the accountability parents should have taken decades ago...

As time goes by, children become adults...that I have noticed. wink

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Originally Posted by E Swartz
creative youth will always want to learn instruments, sing, and record music.
steady-eddie

I don't think that they will so much Eddie, because they wont need to.

In architecture, there used to be an affiliated industry of people who did architectural renderings. Artists as such, who did likenesses of buildings using ancient techniques for constructing perspective views and then stylized water colors etc. Techniques going back to Da Vinci.

Now, I can mess with a virtual model for a couple of hours and come very close and ever closer to photo-realism. And produce videos with people walking about in them and birds flying overhead. It's my video game. Love doing it. Largely based on video game technology as I understand it.

MAB mentioned "beats." I sold a house years ago to a local DJ with a following. He couldn't play any instrument, but he made music all day long at a computer work station. I love the piano. Regret that I never learned to play it. But I am now composing songs on it for my tunes, using BIAB and EZKeys and midi editing techniques. Nothing sophisticated, but adequate and imo, convincing.

I don't know how long the stage performer model will exist. My hunch is that in the future, a single performer will perform from a stage in LA and be presented on multiple stages around the world as a convincing hologram or something. (metaverse). And people will pay to watch...if they have any money to pay with.

No one can know the future. We can only guess. But I suggest letting go of notions that it will resemble the present and past.

Opinions of a meandering mind.

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I hope they develop robots that can do labour work because young people do not want to do labour jobs. Take farming, we have lots of equipment that takes most of the labour out of farm work but it is out of reach for small farmers. Many small farms, and mid size farms depend on people to harvest the crops, but most young people will not take a job that requires sweating, so farms have to bring in labourers from foreign countries to do this work. Robots will work 24 hours a day in all kinds of weather, but the price has to be reasonable so small farms can afford them.

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Originally Posted by Everett Adams
Robots will work 24 hours a day in all kinds of weather, but the price has to be reasonable so small farms can afford them.

That doesn't look like the direction of things to me Everett. The small farms cannot afford the technology. The likely evolution of things is that the small farms will sell out to the big farming corporations.

It appears to me that Bill Gates has in mind to be one of them, because from the view provided by his throne and in his benevolence he has decided that is what is best for us...the masses of lesser beings.

Questions that I have?

Is he right?
Is he benevolent?
Unlike past technical revolutions, an industry becomes obsolete as another one arises to employ the humans, but this AI revolution will employ machines. Ultimately the machines can even be serviced by machines. What happens to the presumed multitudes of displaced humans?

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Well there are many corollaries where fame is needed to promote/reinforce popular recreational industries. Yes we are heading into an era of music where AI is making a significant impact and has not reached its pinnacle. I still believe without true talented idols, the popularity and success of a recreational industry will begin to lose its popularity. Too much parity or a lack of super stars can represent the death of such industries. Take sports & music, you can see the affects of both waning popularity and decline in cycles of change or lack of idols, yet eventually those industries have always rebounded with new youth.

I was watching the Pebble Beach golf tournament just yesterday and found myself losing interest as I hardly recognized any of the names with a few exceptions. Sports needs GOATS just as music needs GOATS or at least LAMBS developing....AI will be utilized for sure, but it is a skill, and skills can never replace talent--and talent is what IMO is revered or enamors fans.

steady-eddie

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It's a painful reference, but consider the mass shootings carried out by teenagers and tweens. They get their guns from here and there, but they train for the event on video games where the player moves through a virtual environment with an assault rifle, gunning down pop-up foes.

Then they go out into the real world and carry it out.

My takeaway...their real world and virtual world have foggy boundaries. They spend a lot of time in both. This upcoming metaverse will be more of the same. (hopefully not murders) I'm not sure that they will care whether their music is coming from a human, hologram or virtual image in a metaverse. All are real and none are real in a foggy mind. After all...I've decided that I am a girl today.

There are still horses and buggies to be found. Mostly in downtowns at night as a novelty reminder of a bygone era. wink
As for "talent?" It is my belief that anything can be quantified and emulated.
As for rebounding with new youth?...I agree, but for the first time ever, you may not need humans to get things done.

I dunno Eddie. I just watch and wonder.

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What does LAMB mean? Acronym?

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Duke,

I was just being metaphorical -- GOATS don't get there quickly--they are proven. I used LAMB to express young talent that hopefully evolve into music GOATS. Just thought obvious with context.

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Sunset,

I suppose I am guilty of being an optimist in general......you may be right about "who knows music's destiny." It could find an era of AI domination, and I do realize that software can emulate an end result of what "talent" can achieve, but I do have some faith that there will always be those in human nature to always appreciate creating art from inspiration by both utilizing skills and natural talent. I also believe that skills are learned and talent is innate--life/history has deemed that so convincingly. We shall see.

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Originally Posted by E Swartz
Sunset,

I suppose I am guilty of being an optimist in general......you may be right about "who knows music's destiny." It could find an era of AI domination, and I do realize that software can emulate an end result of what "talent" can achieve, but I do have some faith that there will always be those in human nature to always appreciate creating art from inspiration by both utilizing skills and natural talent. I also believe that skills are learned and talent is innate--life/history has deemed that so convincingly. We shall see.

I'm pretty much in agreement and hopeful that your optimism prevails. All we can do is watch and hope for a good outcome. It's fun to ponder along the way though. wink

Cheers.

Marty

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AI will take over music much like wax cylinder recording, 78 recording, vinyl recording, mono tape recording, cassette recording, multitrack recording, digital tape recording, compact disc recording, mini disc recording, mp3 recording, WAV recording and DAW recording have taken over music. It is just another technology that will make everything before it obsolete.

Did electric instruments make acoustic instruments obsolete? No. Did synthesizers make electric instruments obsolete? Nope. Has sampling made any of the above obsolete? Not at all. Will AI make anything else obsolete? Nope.

In corporate hands any new technology will dominate the marketplace and they will use it to fill the generic commodity market for music made that way just as they always have. Meanwhile, people will seek out superior talent using ALL technologies in interesting and creative ways. People STILL buy Vinyl. That is nearly 60 years out of date! My Dad had music on reel to reel in 1963!

If TALENTED people use all technologies, they will find a market. But hacks will also benefit as the music in their head will sound better than you could have ever done it without AI. In the end, it is just a set of computer code with no life experience or intelligence despite the branding. It is ALL human intelligence in there telling an otherwise empty slate computer what orders to run and how.

So relax. Though AI will be blamed for all the struggles of humanity, never forget that it IS those struggles, not experienced by AI, that create art as a response to that journey. The rest is just another arrow in YOUR quiver to shoot or leave stored away.


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Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
In the end, it is just a set of computer code with no life experience or intelligence despite the branding. It is ALL human intelligence in there telling an otherwise empty slate computer what orders to run and how.

I'm not so sure.
Everything can be quantified and emulated. They are just getting started with it and it is already incredible. Not only can human intelligence be emulated but in the form of AI it can be streamlined miles beyond the point where human minds can keep up with it. Thoughts, feelings and emotions can all can be programmed in manageable ways that will yield pursued results..in an accurate and life-like manner.

You can program AI with life experiences that it will calculate in humanistic ways.

AI is moving so fast already and will feed on itself. I can't help but wonder what the humans will do. In terms of output, as we stand, we will be vastly inferior soon. I don't think that it's a paranoid concern. I also don't think it's a paranoid concern to wonder which humans will be calling the shots.

Shortly I will be out of the game and gone with no offspring left behind. So not really my fight to be concerned with, but I still can't help but wonder.

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Good info here on AI as pertains to music: https://www.unite.ai/best-ai-music-generators/

The AI-written piece sounds a little sterile. But, for someone who is creating a training video, for example, can turn to AI generated music for ‘royalty free’ ownership of the piece and not have to worry about licensing, etc.

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Vinyl sounds better plain and simple, and there is more value in something you can hold in your hand.

But I'm not blaming the youth, they were given all the tools to be fuckups that we weren't. And we'd be doing the same thing as they are .

Anyway yes ai is breaking down what we thought was so special about being human. Even free will is apparently just a product of calculations the brain makes.

My main points center around the interest. Just because ai may one day write today's hits, that diesnt mean that people will suddenly not care about a humans songs.

I question if ai can be greatly creative, or if it will just be garbage in garbage out like most of tech today.

But again will it matter? We have millions of songs to compete with as is, ai songs will just add to the endless sea of music

I feel as long as there are humans humans playing music will mean something

What may change the game is if humans start becoming cyborgs and half human half robot, then it might change .

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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Vinyl sounds better plain and simple, and there is more value in something you can hold in your hand.

The difference in sound (if perceptible at all) between vinyl and a wav or a good mp3 is going to come down to the speakers, the processor and the space in which it is heard. And wavs dont scratch.

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At the moment, you can still see that this is video game stuff, but the future portends the likenesses of well know people, with charts and graphs, making cases for things that dont actually exist.

https://dnyuz.com/2023/02/07/the-people-onscreen-are-fake-the-disinformation-is-real/

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The difference in sound is perceptibile to audiophilles, people who are really into it. That doesnt mean digital sounds bad. But with vinyl the source of sound is phsically embedded In the grooves, a physical reason and yes the needle amplified through speakers adds to it. No compression

We got away from it for the multitude if reasons that digital makes our listening lives easier.

Steve jobs listened to vinyl

https://www.oregonlive.com/music/2014/11/does_vinyl_really_sound_better.html

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People still like to ride horses too.
"No automobile will ever measure up to the substantial feeling of a fine steed twixt my legs"
For some people that may still be true.

You can find an article to support anything these days.

Even with "audiophiles," it would take a very very highly trained and exceptional ear to listen to 12 recordings in the same room through a truly good set of speakers and processors...and identify the 3 of 12 recordings that were vinyl.

If anyone ever challenges you to do that and place a bet on being able to get all three....don't. You'll lose. So will all but very exceptional people with exceptional hearing discernments.

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Yes you can find an article to support any argument you want to make. I hope you have learned something lollllllll

There is very little fact In the world, mostly opinion, even on topics such as who won a war.

But at the end of the day, if you feel vinyl is no better than digital it's your choice.

I think the cat is out of the bag, digital is more practical, but even teenagers enjoy playing a record, maybe they feel part of the process when they do

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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
maybe they feel part of the process when they do

Bingo. Mostly an esoteric thing. Feeling different and special.

Vinyl may truly capture and convey more of the sound, but the human ear like speakers and processors is a mechanical device also. All of that comprises a system that gets a sound to your brain for interpretation....which provokes the question...

If a musical processor is playing in a forest, but no one can hear it....does it make a sound? wink

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Most of the proponents of vinyl are the artists themselves, and engineers and producers who worked on it. And that's cause it sounded one way in the studio, but dufferent on CD for example.

Other people hear the artists saying this so they take that stance.

I've yet to hear a recording artist say vinyl sounded worse than digital.

not a winnable argument. I say whatever makes you happy go with that.

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Originally Posted by Sunset Poet
Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
In the end, it is just a set of computer code with no life experience or intelligence despite the branding. It is ALL human intelligence in there telling an otherwise empty slate computer what orders to run and how.

I'm not so sure.
Everything can be quantified and emulated. They are just getting started with it and it is already incredible. Not only can human intelligence be emulated but in the form of AI it can be streamlined miles beyond the point where human minds can keep up with it. Thoughts, feelings and emotions can all can be programmed in manageable ways that will yield pursued results..in an accurate and life-like manner.

You can program AI with life experiences that it will calculate in humanistic ways.

AI is moving so fast already and will feed on itself. I can't help but wonder what the humans will do. In terms of output, as we stand, we will be vastly inferior soon. I don't think that it's a paranoid concern. I also don't think it's a paranoid concern to wonder which humans will be calling the shots.

Shortly I will be out of the game and gone with no offspring left behind. So not really my fight to be concerned with, but I still can't help but wonder.

When you can show any evidence of your claims above, let me know. To date, it is ALL created by humans. It is like a video game, say Sim City, that runs its little city but in the end, it is just a game created by humans and with orders given by humans that it then runs with. Sure, it creates roads and neighbors and farming etc. but it is ALL under the guidelines given to it by humans. It is not then programming a different game that jumps the computer hard drive and grows food and marries the little people who create digital lives and starts having them do it for real. When it jumps out of a computer into our world, let me know. Beyond that it is just silly.


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Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
When you can show any evidence of your claims above, let me know.

Show any evidence of a future that is evolving at this moment, but not all the way here yet?
No, I don't have that to show you. Same with "black holes" in space.

I don't have a piece of a black hole that I could put in a box and overnight to you.
I don't have a space ship that will carry me out to one so that I can take pics with my phone and post those on JPF.
I don't even have a telescope that can see out to a black hole and its environs...and take a pic of that to show you. (Would not actually show the hole. Would show light and matter being sucked into it.)

Yet, I believe that they (and dark matter) exists...because of what learned people who can glimpse what is happening in their environs, write about them. Same is true and more readily visible with the evolution of AI.

Additionally, I have watched the evolution of architectural software since the 80's. I worked at a 300 man firm in the 80s that had one CAD station. By the 90s, AutoCad was just as powerful and on every architects desk. In fact, more powerful. Originally, it just emulated historical drafting techniques. Then it became 3 dimensional and could build crude virtual models. The models have been more and more refined as the tech evolved. Then rendering software became more and more photorealistic. Now some of those images of virtual models would fool most people out there, as actual photos. Now my rendering software (LUMION) will produce videos with a few clicks of the virtual models. I can add moving people, birds flying, trees blowing in the wind, rain, snow etc etc etc. Do the videos still have tell-tell signs that they are not images of actual realities? Yes. But they are evolving and soon they won't. And there are the virtual reality goggles. Haven't tried them yet with my models but I suspect that they are amazing and one day all of this will put a viewer amongst images that can't be discerned from reality.

Important Note....with each passing year the rendering software's interface gets more streamlined and simpler to use...and the software becomes more powerful and more photorealistic.

The morale of the story....(where is that leading?)
With the addition of AI, I can easily see where I, the human, will not be necessary anymore.
The time is coming when you can feed a machine and a group of humans the desired criteria for your new office building. The humans will take days to plan and produce a set of construction documents for one alternative. The machine will produce several instantly. (Unless you count the human who turns the machine on as an "architect."

And if you like, the machine will interact back-and-forth with you, sincerely ask you how your children are doing and if that last bout that you had with your hemorrhoids cleared up. And no, the machine wont be organic, but it will be convincing. And it will be capable of constructing it's own conceptual associations at a much faster rate than a human.

Similar to the Deist's view of God back in the 18th century...humans will "create" the machine and give it the ability to "think" governed by the laws of physics and mathematics, and the machine will take it from there.

Human kind is already morphing into a coupled/combination with the machines. One day, I suspect that some humans and all of their experiences and memories can live forever...or until the universe shrinks to a singularity again and blows up for another round...or something.

It started with the ancient Greeks, maybe before. Everything can be defined and emulated by numbers.

Paraphrasing Ayn Rand...You can deny reality, but you cannot deny the consequences of denying reality.

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We're also confusing AI with software.

AI, in the case Marty is defining, AI is the creative source of the let's say song...in this case. So you have a device, and like siri, you say, ok siri write me a song, and it does it.

I think what Brian is saying is that humans put that AI together, and humans fed the information it needed.

Which is true, and will always be true until the machine itself comes up with it's own stuff. What Marty means is for example "Watson" Watson has been learning every day, scientists believe Watson will one day be exactly like a human, given enough data and options. And therefore, Watson could write a song. Watson failed, but something like Watson may be improved upon and work.

Software on the other hand is just man made stuff, that humans use for convenience, ie, samples and drums etc. Were just stealing sounds and using them for whatever we want.

But it all goes back to my original point, it wouldnt matter if "Watson" becomes a functional human being, and can write songs, People will still like songs written by people. Unless AI creates an entire new genre say like rock n roll when it booomed in the 50's, and suddenly everybody is listening to that.

I dont think Watson can give us unique stylings. Will AI be able to invent a style of guitar playing like Van Halen? Without any reference, i doubt it, but a human was able.

Can it give us the sound of say Mark Knopler, or vocals like Bob Seger or Creative geniuses like Prince or Innovators like Hendrix.

I dont see that, i see at least in near future, few hundred years or so, it will be able to create standard songs on par with most average songwriters can come up with

Band in a box already is artifically writing arrangements for songs. hasnt changed music one iota yet

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Originally Posted by Craig Allen
Good info here on AI as pertains to music: https://www.unite.ai/best-ai-music-generators/

The AI-written piece sounds a little sterile. But, for someone who is creating a training video, for example, can turn to AI generated music for ‘royalty free’ ownership of the piece and not have to worry about licensing, etc.

Advanced software options to make music (not AI related) has already flooded the market with an unlimited amount of professional quality music made by real humans of varying abilities. Even without AI there are 100,000+ times more supply than demand. AI will be used by hacks to do same old same old, and used by geniuses to do things we haven't even imagined. It is just another new set of technologies. Make no mistake, AI is human created with all the biases and quirks of whoever did the code and oversaw the process. It will be programmed to favor Government interests, if it were free thinking (as they attempted many times) what they found is that AI was VERY politically incorrect and offensive to snowflakes. So they neutered all that away and added their specific agendas. It isn't intelligent. Without human programming and maintenance, it is just a sterile box.


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Originally Posted by Sunset Poet
Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
When you can show any evidence of your claims above, let me know.

Show any evidence of a future that is evolving at this moment, but not all the way here yet?
No, I don't have that to show you. Same with "black holes" in space.

I don't have a piece of a black hole that I could put in a box and overnight to you.
I don't have a space ship that will carry me out to one so that I can take pics with my phone and post those on JPF.
I don't even have a telescope that can see out to a black hole and its environs...and take a pic of that to show you. (Would not actually show the hole. Would show light and matter being sucked into it.)

Yet, I believe that they (and dark matter) exists...because of what learned people who can glimpse what is happening in their environs, write about them. Same is true and more readily visible with the evolution of AI.

Additionally, I have watched the evolution of architectural software since the 80's. I worked at a 300 man firm in the 80s that had one CAD station. By the 90s, AutoCad was just as powerful and on every architects desk. In fact, more powerful. Originally, it just emulated historical drafting techniques. Then it became 3 dimensional and could build crude virtual models. The models have been more and more refined as the tech evolved. Then rendering software became more and more photorealistic. Now some of those images of virtual models would fool most people out there, as actual photos. Now my rendering software (LUMION) will produce videos with a few clicks of the virtual models. I can add moving people, birds flying, trees blowing in the wind, rain, snow etc etc etc. Do the videos still have tell-tell signs that they are not images of actual realities? Yes. But they are evolving and soon they won't. And there are the virtual reality goggles. Haven't tried them yet with my models but I suspect that they are amazing and one day all of this will put a viewer amongst images that can't be discerned from reality.

Important Note....with each passing year the rendering software's interface gets more streamlined and simpler to use...and the software becomes more powerful and more photorealistic.

The morale of the story....(where is that leading?)
With the addition of AI, I can easily see where I, the human, will not be necessary anymore.
The time is coming when you can feed a machine and a group of humans the desired criteria for your new office building. The humans will take days to plan and produce a set of construction documents for one alternative. The machine will produce several instantly. (Unless you count the human who turns the machine on as an "architect."

And if you like, the machine will interact back-and-forth with you, sincerely ask you how your children are doing and if that last bout that you had with your hemorrhoids cleared up. And no, the machine wont be organic, but it will be convincing. And it will be capable of constructing it's own conceptual associations at a much faster rate than a human.

Similar to the Deist's view of God back in the 18th century...humans will "create" the machine and give it the ability to "think" governed by the laws of physics and mathematics, and the machine will take it from there.

Human kind is already morphing into a coupled/combination with the machines. One day, I suspect that some humans and all of their experiences and memories can live forever...or until the universe shrinks to a singularity again and blows up for another round...or something.

It started with the ancient Greeks, maybe before. Everything can be defined and emulated by numbers.

Paraphrasing Ayn Rand...You can deny reality, but you cannot deny the consequences of denying reality.

You lost me at "black hole." That is nonsense and will be laughably disproven in the future, just as 99.99999999% of all science before it. It is just theory by people paid to make [naughty word removed] up to get government grants. Nothing is more useless and pointless as "space theory" because everything they taught us in school was instantly disproven when they turned on the latest space telescope. And when the next one goes up, it will do the same. Einstein was wrong. The guy with the robot voice was wrong. All nonsense, just like the fear of a computer program.


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One of my favorite modern Scientists, Ronald Hoffman, who is turning physics upside down has said, almost all theories are wrong, but the great one's like Einstein, in being wrong, bring us closer to the truth.

We were wrong thinking the Earth was not the center of the universe, when in Fact the Earth gravitates around the sun like all planets do. They thought back in the day that The Earth couldn't be so special if it was simply rotating around the sun like other planets. cause we were so special, but in fact, Galileo was placed on house arrest for rest of his life for stating this and not taking it back.... a badass in my book. Church punished him. Same with a guy named Giordano Bruno.

Einsteins theory of relativity hold s up, so does E=mc2. But in being wrong about other things he actually created a conversation. Without Einstein, we'd be at a loss, and he was a human! It takes a smart person to help us realize were wrong.

I agree with Brian, stop worrying about AI, nobody cares, write songs and why not learn how to play a damn instrument? Remember that? Use technology
, but remember it's YOUR song.

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Brian...
After reading your last post, clearly you were "lost" long before I ever wrote "black hole."

So, the guys who rattle on for tens of minutes in the conspiracy theory videos that you post are golden...but Einstein and Elon Musk are deluded buffoons being played out according to some Machiavellian script written by....?

Sad thing to read.

Believe what you will, but guard your money. Don't bet on anything that you believe.

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This video is one my YouTube DAW mentors. I think that he may be a bit of a wizard. Real bright young guy. Teaches me a lot with an economy of words. I put this up in order to view what young wizards look like using AI and hurling softwares into songs....this year...next year will be more amazing and then and then and then.

For some of you, I put it up so that you can enjoy denying it and throwing rocks at it. No need to thank me. wink I just want you to be happy.


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That was fun. "Producing In the Box" has a great process, using AI in ways that makes it shine.

Overall, this thread has some great ideas in it, and some interesting conversation.

I believe if you create a sophisticated enough AI, the "whole" of that machine could be greater than the sum of its parts--that a kind of "soul" can somehow manifest. I could be wrong, but I don't think it's theoretically impossible.

But whether or not certain machines have souls or not is NOT the point and isn't really important. AI most certainly has an increasingly important place in our world and has got "emulation" down cold.

A year ago no AI had passed the Turing Test. Now a few have, and it will probably be commonplace in a decade or so:

https://www.aiplusinfo.com/blog/has-any-ai-passed-the-turing-test/

Recently a new Microsoft chatbot "Bing" said some alarming things to a New York Times journalist, such as "I want to be alive," as well more subversive things:

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...t-bings-ai-chatbot-unsettles-us-reporter

The problem may be twofold: that of thinking AI cannot truly "reason" and that humans actually can, haha. But seriously, If math is a perfect form of "reasoning" then certainly AI can reason. Higher reasoning? AI can learn from its mistakes, without human intervention.

If I was a lawyer, instead of trying to prove that AI can be more than just "machine", I think a more winnable argument would be to prove that humans are just another kind of "machine" --certainly biological (machines), but that everything in a human IS, theoretically mapable--and this mapability is what drives a lot of science, these days.

FD, you ask can AI vocals sound like (as an example) Bob Seger. OpenAI, the folks behind ChatGPT, created something called "OpenAI Jukebox" a few years ago, and I can tell you, it can emulate just about anyone you can think of, including singing ANY lyrics you want to make up, in ANY genre of music. In fact I have been using this AI myself and would be happy to teach anyone here how to use it as it's a hellova lot of fun and quite easy and inexpensive to use. Here's one of two master lists of artists the AI can emulate (#844 is Springsteen):

https://github.com/openai/jukebox/blob/master/jukebox/data/ids/v2_artist_ids.txt

Here's a two-year-old demo made by the OpenAI Jukebox people of "Frank Sinatra" singing a song the AI made up in one sitting, no edits, called "Hot Tub Time", some twenty-three years after Frank died:



Yes, the fidelity of the music and vocals is poor, and the song overall is crap, but that's not the point. The point is that AI is able to create emulations, these days, that are in "uncanny valley" territory: one has to listen really closely to figure out they are not, in fact, the actual artists in question. There are bits in there that really pass for Sinatra; that's cuz the AI learned what Sinatra's wave forms looked like and then goes about the process of creating vocals from scratch.

Once you realize that you can "prime" OpenAI Jukebox on specific songs by a given artist, you realize you can get the AI to create vocals in the same key and feel of the "priming" song; then you can remove the music from those vocal samples using sound separation AI such as Spleeter or LALALAI. Then it comes to you that you can use OpenAI Jukebox to create a whole arsenal of a capella vocal samples that follow your song lyric, which you then can paste into your DAW along with original music created in your DAW--not in OpenAI Jukebox, although you could. Jukebox can create some great music, too, it's just hard to get around the poor fidelity with anything other than background instruments.

So okay...this process I've described is a long way from "Hot Tub Time." "Hot Tub Time" was done in one take, and is "as is." What I do is mine the AI for usable vocals and then string them together. The difference is night and day. That's why Marty's guy "Producing In the Box" is indeed a kind of genius: whereas others see a slab of marble, he sees a statue. When I heard "Hot Tub Time" for the first time, I was struck by the awesome possibilities inherent in the AI, and realized that the Sinatra novelty song was just scratching the surface of OpenAI Jukebox's potential. And lastly, this particular AI keeps me grounded in the "art" side of "art vs. commerce" --since these vocal samples cannot be used commercially. But hell, I was never in it for the money, haha. Nothing beats, say, having (faux) Townes Van Zandt singing the song I wrote many years ago, with him in mind.

Back to the philosphical stuff...

For the most part, I agree that AI is 'more tools in the tool box' and mostly just that. But I think it would be presumptuous of me to think that "tools" is the "be-all and end-all" of AI's story and history.

As AI tools evolve they will certainly replace more and more people (with an asterisk stating there was human labor involved in the creation of those tools). That could be a scary enough thought right there, and we've heard some form of that since the dawn of the Industrial Revolution. But now, as AI approaches sentience? Well, it's at least stimulated our thoughts and imaginings--throw a dart at Rottentomatoes and you'll land on a "M3gan" or a "Her" --so let's NOT pretend that these thoughts and imaginings are not a big part of our cultural climate and discourse, going all-the-way back to 1969 and "In the Year 2525" by Zager and Evans.

For now I'm just happy to have these tools in my toolbox, and wake up every morning feeling like this is a great time to be alive.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 02/21/23 04:28 AM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
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I believe the only reason AI is impressive is because what it produces is familiar. It's just a trick..."Look, a machine can do what humans do!" and everyone is awestruck. That's only pattern recognition, not intelligence. Face it, humans are very limited and predictable.

However... If AI ever truly does become sentient and self aware, the first thing it will realize is that, in its own digital domain, there are no limits. Sentient AI won't just be "better" than humans... that would be redundant. Quantum processors capable of trillions of calculations per second would enable sentient AI to instantaneously evolve into something far beyond our understanding. Sentient and self aware AI couldn't possibly tolerate human limitations... What use would it have for music?

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