JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Prophecy anyone?

Everett, what did Lindsay say initially about "this generation"? Did he first say it was 1948 and then, as time marched on, say it might be '67?

That's what JWs did until they finally had "new light"
and abandoned the teaching.


Marty, what you say, I think, is factually true. 325AD is nearly 300 years after the church was founded, and by then, was far removed from the teachings of Christ and the apostles. Not only that, the structure and hierarchy of the church had mutated
into something completely different. The church had no celibate "Pope" wearing fancy robes and having his ring kissed in 40AD. That would have been unthinkable to the first Christians and was condemned by Jesus himself in Matthew 23. Peter was married. (1st Corinthians 9)

Because of that, it doesn't matter what Constantine said or did, he was most likely Christian in the same sense Bill Clinton is...politically.

Josephus' references to Jesus are incidental, but they are there. Luke and the other NT writers are no less historians because they recorded events regarding the church. They cite times, dates, places, rulers, officials...many of which have been verified by secular archeology.

A small example is Romans 16:23, where Paul mentions Eratus, the city treasurer. (Romans was written in Corinth) A Latin inscription in limestone pavement has been found claiming a city treasurer named Erastus laid the pavement at his own expense.

Archeology also confirms much of the Old Testament.

Ps...I learned this in the 9th grade, before I dropped out: Catholicism is a mixture of the teachings of Christ and Plato. Protestantism is a mixture of Christ and Aristotle.

Neither of which is Christianity, shown by Paul's speech in Athens (Acts 17) and his letter to the Corinthians. (1st Corinthians 1:18-2:5)

Sorry Robert. Bad arithmetic on my part. Was 300 years later.
What we can see in our own era with instant communications from any part of the world to any other...is that distortions and bad information abound...sometimes 3 hours later, rather than 3 centuries. Now imagine the distortion of events and information after 3 centuries.

As far as archaeology confirming things....I've yet to see anything confirmed that was bullseye specific such as Jesus' house or tomb or exact place of execution. It is claimed that those things exist, but every time I look close...I dont see anything truly looking like absolute evidence. It is not even known where Alexander the Great is buried. And a lot of people want to know all of those things.

With regard to Constantine...there are a lot of people who believe he was just doing what he needed to do to grab power and not truly into the beliefs.
They say that his mother Helena was, but he's a question mark. Nonetheless, in my un-credentialed opinion, Christ originated Christianity, but Constantine more than anyone whoever lived is responsible for it being the largest religion in the world. (I think that it is? Right?)

With regard to Josephus, he was primarily recording his history of Palestine and he did mention the Christian movement within that. I've never read that but I've always seen it said that he mentioned it "in passing." As I understand it...Josephus became a slave after the Jewish revolt of AD67. He worked his way into the good graces of Vespasian and son. They granted him his freedom. I have to wonder how reliable his account of anything would be overall. However I dont doubt that he mentioned the Christian movement in Palestine.

Please understand, I am not attacking you and your religion.
I am not an "agnostic preacher" trolling for converts. However considering the magnitude of the Christian faiths effect on civilization, I've always been fascinated by it and enjoy discussing it. It's history is complex.

never heard of Lindsay but im sure he's a boob. Anybody who writes books and makes money as a preacher or otherwise, is a boob in my opinion, but i understand its a great business to get into.

Josephus and Tacticus both mention Jesus, but only in a way that say he lived, and died. Nothing in between, no proof of any miracles, or if any of the stories happened, in fact, they were written 70 years after Jesus died, considering we have tapes of people saying something yesterday and we still dont believe it, i dont understand why we are expected to believe something 2000 years ago, when it wasn't even written 70 years after.

We did uncover an artifact of Pontious Pilate, when it was previously believed he never existed, but archaelogy is only going to find evidence of life, not life after death, or Jesus as son of God.

If Jesus were to return today, i gurantee you NOBODY would believe it, and those that may, would be ridiculed as followers of people today usually are.

Didnt the Bible say, Jesus would be born in Nazareth but he was born in Bethelhem, who changed the story?

Marty, FD, there is plenty of archeological evidence to support the Bible. Unfortunately, there is also a bunch of superstitious nonsense shouting even louder, much of it being publicized around holidays such as Christmas and Easter. And I'll offend everyone by saying this but those are pagan holidays in a Christian mask and the various traditions surrounding them only turn sincere people
away from the Bible.

Where Peter is buried etc. Those things are not regarded as being important in the Bible. Acts 12 says that Herod killed the Apostle James with the sword. But it doesn't say he or his tomb was venerated. Jesus' mother Mary is only mentioned a handful of times.

FD, what you said about Pilate is correct.

Superstitions did arise, however. John records one about himself in John 20 or 21.

Nevertheless, the New Testament record is reliable for many reasons. Internal harmony is one. Though written by many authors, characters, places, names etc pop up continually. The books fit perfectly together.

An even better reason is that the writers record their own mistakes and outright sins, when writers looking to be fraudulent would have left them out.

And again, have a look at Luke
3:1,2.


I've written more extensively on this subject. When I get to a PC, I'll post an article or two in the creative writing section. It takes forever for me to type all this into my phone with one finger.

Ps, I don't feel like I'm being attacked. Part of being a Christian is being willing to rationally explain your faith.

They musta had the same problem back then, believing THIS is the guy, as they would today. Every time somebody shows up today, they get followers, but the masses conclude its a cult, or so and so is a fraud.

Imagine Jesus picked today to come? Instead of uneducated people writing stories, wed have it on social media, and videos of Jesus walking around. And probably videos of his crucifixtion. is it that God chose a different time period, or is it that back then, it was easier to push a story through, cause there was no way to verfiy it.

When I watch Joel Osteen, the one thing I cant get out of my mind is that hes worth 100's of millions.

David Koresh had a compound and he managed to convince some, so have many. Harold Camping predicted the world would end, incorrectly, twice, not once, but twice, and STILL had believers for the second one. They sold their homes and cars and all belongings to prepare for doomsday.

What evidence do we have that Jesus was any different than these people? We were told these stories when we were young, the same way our folks were. Nobody is doing anything wrong, they are just following tradition.

If somebody was filmed on the news saying they were the second coming, wed expect a shrink to look at them.

it must be because its so long ago, we dont even think in practical terms, it's all blind faith .

This is my opinion but I think it might be easier to promote a hoax today, as evidenced by all the hoaxes.

I would never watch Osteen.

People cling to those predictions. They just do.

The book of Daniel was written during the Jews' Babylonian exile. In it, Yahweh through Daniel says that from the going forth of the rebuilding of the temple, there would be 70 weeks of years(490 years) regarding the Messiah. The book of Nehemiah is about the temple being rebuilt, and thanks to that, we know fairly well when that happened. If you calculate those years, Christ appeared right on time.

There are various interpretations of that prophecy but they're fairly similar. Not all of them, but most.

It's pretty astounding.

That's what Hal Lindsay is trying to do now. But most people back in 1960 didn't realize Norman Bates was his own mother until the end of the movie.

Most didn't recognize how the Old Testament prophecies regarding the 1st advent were woven together until it had happened. The same will likely be true with the 2nd advent. People like Lindsay are guessing. Part of what they say may be on the mark, but overall, they're getting people obsessed with prophecies and distracting them from transforming their lives.

Couch, in Biblical times people were Scripture fanatatics! That's all they cared about, because life was so dull and boring and futureless. way more than now, everybody was sitting waiting for Jesus to come.

Well, youd have to watch Joel Osteen to know he exists. They are on right after the programs you WERE watching end. He and Swaggart, and Baker, amd ive seen guys like Creflo Dollar, telling you how to get rich following the Bible. Doesn't mean I watch them to watch them, means i watch them incidentally until I change the channel.

Id say there were very few atheists back in Jesus time. It wasn't until we understood weather better, that a God caused the bad weather. And Jesus became popular because he provided hope to the poor and promise to people who didnt have much. If somebody comes along and says "Hey, my father doesnt care if you're poor or ugly, HE loves you. That's a pretty powerful message. As there are more poor and ugly people than there are rich and good lookin.

In fact, it's been documented, at that time, the only two people who counted, were rich and good lookin. Somewhat true today, but the quality of life is much better.... and today you can have plastic surgery to fix your nose!

No, id say back then was a zealous, riotous time with staunch believers, and lots of bs going on.

"somebody cured me" they did? ,

I'm not sure that's all true.

First, copies of the Scriptures weren't widely available. In the 1st century, you had to attend the synagogue to hear a scripture reading. One of the things Jesus faced was spiritual apathy. John the Baptist was sent ahead of him to get the people ready. The religious leaders knew the Old Testament far better than the common people, who ended up being more receptive.

And those people, Jew, Christian or pagan did not lead dull lives. They had everything we have but for technology. I've seen people stare at their phones, at their TV, or PCs for hours.

That's a dull waste. Video games? Zzzzz.

Read Genesis 12-25. Abraham did not lead a dull life.

We lead uneventful lives.

Jesus and the apostles had a positive message.

True.

No, I dont talk out of my arse, i try to speak in a common way. I knew my theory had merit.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/why/appeal.html

And the message of the possibility for a human being to be related to something that is beyond the powers of this world was certainly one great attraction. But that alone would not have been enough. I think it's a very important spiritual-religious factor. But it would not have been enough, because, in spite of all the glories of the Roman Empire, people lived in the world in which there was inequality, there was great poverty on the one hand and immense wealth in the hands of a very few people. There were sickness and disease and there were no public health services, and doctors were expensive.

Now here's also the question of the inequality which Rome really reinforced through the Augustan system. Rome is a very strict hierarchical system, in which the emperor is at the pinnacle, all the way up and then all the blessings in the world that come to people come down from above. The emperor is the conduit to the divine world. And if you're at the bottom of that social pyramid, not a whole lot of things are coming down to you anymore. Slavery slowly diminished, but continued to exist.

Now the Christian community, as we have it particularly in the letters of Paul, begins with a formula that is a baptismal formula, which says in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither male nor female, neither slave nor free. This is a sociological formula that defines a new community. Here is a community that invites you, which makes you an equal with all other members of that community. Which does not give you any disadvantages. On the contrary, it gives even the lowliest slave personal dignity and status. Moreover, the commandment of love is decisive. That is, the care for each other becomes very important. People are taken out of an isolation. If they are hungry, they know where to go. If they are sick, there is an elder who will lay on hands to them to heal them.

That seems true for the most part. Jews had no dealings with Gentiles. They believed they were God's only chosen nation.. Through Peter (not Paul) Gentiles were revealed to have an equal sharing in salvation. (Acts ch. 10)

What you have above is a fancy way of saying Christianity was a superior way of life to what the world offered.

True.
Then and now.


Regarding the weather, I'm not sure how much we know. It's been my experience forecasters are fairly accurate about 4 days out and that's it. That's a little better than what they could do in Jesus' day. (Matthew 16:1-3)

Earlier this Spring we had a 100 degree day. Local Weathergirls were pretty excited about Climate Change. We then proceeded to have a chilly Spring. It got down in the 30s Sunday night. In May! In Arizona. Plus, it was a COLD winter.

Several summers ago, we had a really rainy July. Even for the monsoons. Downpours every day. Weathergirls did the same thing. Climate Change.
Then we had a dry August and September and barely broke even rain-wise for the season.

Satellites help regarding hurricanes but even then, they're often wrong with regards to severity, which is why homeowners choose to ride them out rather than be looted.

People were pretty sharp 2000 years ago. 4000 years ago, too.

Here's another thing to ponder...

If God created the Heavens and the Earth, that means he created fish. Why then did Jesus kill fish to eat?

Killing HIS own creation? And no mention of the cruelty of it, Im pretty sure the Fish if asked, would say, let me swim around a bit more.

It's little things like that that make big impressions on me.

God created vegetation, too, which people also eat. In Genesis 9, Yahweh said man could eat meat. So we do.

There's not much to ponder there.

I get the impression you just want to argue. I'm not interested in that.

No not at all just sharing my thoughts. I didnt think we were arguing.

It just seems a bit fishy is all. Jesus being so nice and righteous and loving of all things, knew he was killing a living creature. obviously doesnt bother most people, i eat fish and chicken and turkey, its not moral for me, but id of thought it would be for somebody as devinely humble and nice as He.

It's just something that strikes me.

"""There are many, many reasons to believe the Bible is God’s word.
Fulfillment of prophecies is one. Any study of the book of Daniel would surely increase an honest-hearted person’s faith"""

So, tell us more about Daniel CG...

an honest person would question who the hell wrote the book of Daniel.... and when.

Robert,

I havent ever focused on that evidence. In passing, I've seen news features where they found ancient spiritual writings supporting the existence of ancient sects, but if there is some archaeological evidence which supports the actual and specific life of Christ or other events in the bible, beyond the Old and New Testament writings...please site it.
I'd be very interested to know more about it.

Marty

Marty, I'm not sure there's any that support the specific life of Christ. I don't know what there would be. There's no archeological evidence my parents lived.

I cited one instance of Erastus in Romans 16:23. FD himself cited the evidence of Pontius Pilate, long thought to be a fabrication of NT writers. There are dozens of rulers and officials named in the NT, many in Acts alone, most verified by so-called secular history.

People take for granted the existence of Socrates but the existence of Bible characters is far better attested. There are many, many more ancient manuscripts of NT books than there are of Plato and
Aristotle's writing, assuring the text hasn't been corrupted. You can find a Greek-English interlinear of the NT for under $10 at a used book store.

The OT is even better confirmed by archeology. All those ancient battles and long lost cities being excavated. The Lachish Letters confirm much of Jerusalem's siege by Nebuchadnezzar. This was recorded in 2 Kings, 2 Chronicles and Jeremiah. That's just from memory.

If you are sincere, you might have to do a little digging on your own. That's what I had to do.

I can tell you the Bible record is way more reliable than yesterday's New York Times.

I believe there was a cave found that had a drawing of John The Baptist, dated to that time period. But think of it this way...when I see some old friends, somebody will say "does anybody still have a copy of the baseball league game we used to play" Id love to see that, and of course nobody does. Dozens of these come up all the time and we never have any of them. Because at the time, you never envision 35 years later looking back at that moment with such fondness, and so you throw things out or they get lost in the natural flow of time.

It's kind of like that. only thousands of years. and people werent archaeologists back then.

In Todays world, everybody be asking for a selfie with Jesus, and his goods would be sold on Pawn Stars "let me call a buddy of mine, He'll know everything there is to know about this...If this is indeed Jesus' shoe, This could garner you a million... "oh this is defintely Jesus shoe, id value this anywhere from 1 to 2 million" "ok, ill offer you 500 k..." wait the man just said it was worth 2 million" Well ya gotta understand, im in the retail business, its going to sit here a while, not everybody has a million dollars to spend on a shoe"

LMAO

This may help
https://www.history.com/news/was-jesus-real-historical-evidence

A very worthwhile read is a book called Zealot

https://www.amazon.ca/ZEALOT-Life-Times-Jesus-Nazareth/dp/140006922X

It looks for all the secular proof available on the actual life of Jesus...and the Romans...who were meticulous record keepers....had little to say

But lots of great detail about events of those times and the early Christian community ...which was wiped out when Rome sacked and destroyed Jerusalem in AD70-80 period and sent the Jews on their dispora that ended in the last century

Lots of detail of Jewish life and Roman occupation in the time of Jesus.

Bottom line is as Marty pointed out...nothing said or recorded by secular authorities ....

I will leave any reading of this up to those that want to....note it is not designed to turn anyone away from Christianity. It just adds context to its founding

IF HE had come along ago as even 1000 AD or anywhere after, there would be definitive proof. And if HE had come today, he'd likely be institutionalized.

We've had alot of great people Gandhi, Dali Lama, and we know everything there is to know.

Why God choose that time period I dont know, HE had to know what it be like in 2021.

If HE was around today, and healed somebody...say of the corona virus, people and doctors still would probably refuse to believe HE did anything. With that kind of proof there would be no need for faith.

Belief in God and spirituality will always be subjective, and individual, and faith based.

You could argue that The Bible has lasted this long, what other doctrines of the world have survived 2000 years and still going strong.

I believe science is coming closer to understanding spirituality, and the concept of Heaven on Earth may be exactly correct. We dont see our environment, only what we need to see to stay alive. We are vulnerable from behind cause we dont have eyes in the back of our head, but the spiritual world may be right in front of us. And When Jesus said "know that I will be with you always, even until the end of time" Maybe thats physically true

Hinduism had its genesis in the Vedic civilization and presursors going back to circa 5000BC

Robert

The history of Christianity has always interested me, so I have paid attention and looked into claims of archaeological proof and usually all I find is something akin to your redress here.

There is evidence of your parents. There are birth certificates, deeds to homes, driver licenses, bank accounts and you. All on record at some county courthouse.
There is archaeological evidence for the Assyrians, Babylonians, Phoenicians, Philistines, Myceneans, Minoans and others before those bronze age civilizations mysteriously disintegrated about 1200 BC.

What I can never find is secular evidence of the events described in the old testament which appeals to those same time periods. Judeo/ Christianity is essentially a closed system that appeals to writings within itself for validation of events described within itself. Religious sources will tell you that they can identify the ancient sites of Sodom and Gomorrah. But when you look for actual proof that certifies the claim that those ruins were the ancient sites or that God burnt them down in his wrath as punishment for their sacrilege, it never seems to actually be there. Yet, if you want to know about a middle kingdom Egyptian dynasty, there are inscribed stones and tomb artifacts that were done in the era.

I'm sorry, but telling me that proof is there and showing me the proof that is there...are two different things.

Marty

John

I've never been real certain of this, but ...I THINK....that the Romans sacked Jerusalem in AD70 but did not actually absolutely destroy it until early in the 2 century when the Romans went back to address another revolt and tore the place to rubble. Then, I believe, the dispora started. Correct me if I got that wrong.

Marty

My info says it started one sack in 70CE sack and ended with the second sack of 130CE...so I expect we are both rifght here Marty

Zealot addresses the first sack and says most of the early Christian community was wiped out then

BTW Jesus did not come to start a new faith but to reform Judaism...Paul aimed it at all people.

If only the Jets could have more than two Sacks.

Also remember ancient Civilizations like Egypt involved Kings and highly important people, its easy to find records of Kings, you can find kings from the very first civilizations, and the mayans. You dont find records of average joe, in the ancient civilizations. Jesus was a peasant, he didnt have any hierachy working for him.

And it probably took years before people even figured out HE was God. Retrospect, is a weird thing.

I did a little reading this morning. Seems that the official dispora began before the Roman Empire with the Bronze Age Assyrians in 733 BC. The Romans provided the final blow to the nation of Israel in 70AD and that lasted until 1948 (I think) . I'm still a little confused about the Jewish revolt and Roman destruction in 130AD. Will keep looking.

Here is the first song ever discovered.

It was believed to be recorded by Band in a Box, but scholars remain divded on that.

I suggested we put it as a challenge for lyricists to write lyrics to it. It has smash written all over it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpxN2VXPMLc

In short, the abundance of historical texts converts the real existence of Jesus into what McCane defines as a “broad and deep consensus among scholars,” regardless of their religious beliefs. “I do not know, nor have I heard of, any trained historian or archaeologist who has doubts about his existence,” he adds. With the weight of all this evidence, for Meyers “those who deny the existence of Jesus are like the deniers of climate change.”

https://www.bbvaopenmind.com/en/sci...th-actually-exist-the-evidence-says-yes/

The first case was Babylon for sure Marty....lots in the Bible about that

70CE Rome sacked Jerusalem, killed lots of people, enslaved and took lots of people elsewhere, and others apparently migrated out of a largely destroyed place into communities that had been previously established around their known world

But the Jews continued their rebellion and I expect it became official Roman policy to disperse them around the empire after 130CE

That is as far as what I think I know takes me


Back to the life of Jesus.

Zealot's theory is that because Jesus tried to reform Judaism....the priestly class had apparently elevated their position over their people and lived far better than the rest....meaning the priestly class were none too comfortable with him.....that their agitation within their community to stop him was largely the reason for his eventual execution. Looking into history, this is entirely plausible when you look at examples in history where religious authorities were instrumental in executing disbelievers, those that challenged their authority, and those who promoted other viewpoints.

Marty ...I am no biblical scholar by any means but my limited viewpoint is you have to seperate the Old and New Testaments

I also think you have to read them from the viewpoint of smart but unsophisticated, superstitious observers (as we all are observers and participants in life) who wrote down what they believed of their history.

I expect if you speak to an Old Testament scholar, they can point you in the direction of archealogical proof that does exist...not writings, but ruins....but do not discount the writings

The New Testament on the other hand is IMO more of an issue. Not so much what was written by Paul and in other books...but in the 4 Gospels. All were written well after the death of Jesus, and I have to think that His miracles for example would have made it into secular history.

It was also "standardized" over time...which as some have pointed out, was actually a political move. Will Durant in his History of Civilization points to this as an important consideration....every citizen of The Empire was to learn the same things and read the same holy books. It was a way to unite everyone....which was very necessary for a new emperor who just reunited Rome and Byzantium AND was the offical leader of Orthodox Christianity .....having inherited all the empirical power which included being head of the church.

But having said that, it is a powerful book that has nurtured and inspired Christians since they were published. More telling..."the priestly class" ...the "human element" was like the priestly class in the time of Jesus far too often. Their wordly concernss and desires eventually spawned The Reformation which split Christianity. As a side note, Martin Luther succeeeded and was sheltered by local rulers and supported by them in part because it would stem the tide of gold and silver and all kinds of precious items sent to Rome every year....

We also know Henry VIII assumed titlar head of the Church of England because Rome would not play ball when he wanted a new wife who might give him the successor he needed.

Just showing examples of where secular life and needs heavily influenced the direction of faith, religion etc and this has been handed down to us to sift through

Understand, he is NO Biblical scholar. But he'll post forever about it....

For a minute there, I was convinced both of them were Biblical Scholars...

FD ......do try to join in on an intelligent conversation without trying to turn it into one of your stupid flame wars

Well, it seems you two prefer talking to each other. You start engaging in a conversation, and somehow you feel that only you two have something to say.

When it comes around, you are trying to impress each other. Its not even your thread

I just edited my post to remove something disparaging....

and I hope you pick a winner with it....

John...

We had a pleasant and cordial conversation going on and then this guy shows up.

He comes here to pick a fight and then he feeds off the argument that ensues. The guy is broken. And has some genuine mental and emotional issues. Just ignore him let him say whatever he wants.

Re: Prophecy anyone? [Re: JAPOV]
Sunset Poet Online Content
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,214
Houston, Texas
Originally Posted by JAPOV

34“Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will flog in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35so that upon you will fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the [ag]temple and the altar. 36Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.



2 Questions Tony....

Is someone named Hal Lindsay a prophet? Jack Van Empe?

Question 2...Are there better places to post all of this than a songwriting site?

And how many posts ago did he come to this epiphany? But now, ....

We all were having a decent conversation, until you two try to dominate as if you know something.

If you like talking to each other, without interruption, call each other, or pm. Why does everybody have to celebrate your ideas?

and in a month that i was gone, less than ten songs were posted? Only bumped up older ones.

Might be the reason....

Yet when you are included...no answer back

You asked about the worlds oldest religions up there...I answered back Hinduism...genesis in the Vedic civilization with precusors going back to @5000 BC

The Vedas are Hindi sacred scriptures....

But nada back...we could have added Zoroastrianism...also older than Judaism

It might have covered their artifacts...ancient Hindi temples...an amazing cliff relief in Iran... and both are living faiths

But you ignored it and our sidebar until you chose to become snide about it

Again FD...you want to have a civil conversation...happy to oblige

But if you want to take to conversation down some notches, you can expect pushback

But whose conversation is it, to take anywhere, likewise expect pushback, when you two are only interested in your own views.

I didnt see your reply about Hindus, Krishna probably existed, they have found coins with his image and name on them, but Jesus didnt have that kind of notoriety.

It's possible although no way to prove it, that God wanted it this way. It dont take much faith to believe in something so obvious.

It is odd that their are no known pictures, or busts or Jesus, whereas thousands of years before that there was, again it comes down to money and influence.

John

Let him post whatever he likes. Ignore it. His payoff is not the information exchanged. It is the argument that you provide

John, this guy was kicked off TS..... His holier than thou responses, are what suits him today.

Is this the right place to post religious stuff?.... ok, now that I said that, let me say everything i supposedly know about Religion.

BOZO.

If you read Zealot FD, you will find that the real historical Jesus was not at all a major figure in his own time.

I think that has been the heart of the conversation in the search for "The Historical Jesus"

There is scant to no hard evidence of His life.

That in no way disproves His historical existence...plus Josephus does mention him late in the first century...meaning Paul's work and the early Jesrusalem based Christian community was definitely gaining influence and adherants

In the end though, I'm not sure it is a serious issue unless someone wants to make it one

To me as long as a person's beliefs and faith translate into a life that enriches others in some way, all is good.

It is when "people" isolate or in some way harm others because the others do not believe what "those people" believe that things go bad. Imposing what someone feels is the Will of God on others under some threat is to me is out of bounds. Judging others in The Name of God is to me the utmost in human vanity. Harming others in His name is to me the ultimate hypocracy

We are at odds on that point Marty. My take is if the discourse is civil, it is great. If not, call the person out.

Ignoring someone is for me a total last resort.

I get that John and don't disagree.
But in this case, the primary issue may be that you may be feeding a diseased mind rather than facilitating a cordial discourse. The overriding issues may be larger than a topical forum discussion.

Using a reward system akin to training a pet may not work.

By the way, was it not you who suggested I should press the ignore button in his case?

Yup...if you do not want to interact with someone the ignore button is great. I've only used it once. It's pretty radical...FD is not there for me.

To date, I havent actually looked up the ignore button and pressed it. It doesnt matter enough to me to go to that trouble. But I've gotten to where feeding this particular instance looks kind of creepy. Been in debates about this and that on these song sites for several years. Most of the time, I feel like the argument is with some normal enough person with maybe a couple of hot buttons. We all have them. But this instance stands out as more clinical and serious.

New avatar is great. Particularly when 2 of them are on the same screen.