JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Blazetrak...

It's been awhile, so this info might be dated. I did, in fact, check out Mr. Blume's site. It noted that not all submissions would be critiqued by him, but that some would be critiqued "by people he had trained". "Bait & switch" popped into my head.
Ott

Darn it, I've run out of popcorn.

Midnite

Has he placed an ad here? Blume's, I mean, I havent seen it.

Miz.Petra

Jason Blume has a songwriting book or two out--I have one of them.
I expect you have to go to his site and crits are offered there

http://www.jasonblume.com/1289852.html

Deja vu.....yes he charges for critiques and just about everything else and yes he gets others to do the critiques for him. Is this ethical?....is paying for a critique a worthwhile exercise?.....I do not think so.....the decision is yours. I am of the opinion that you learn the craft and write your own songs not copy what others think or adopt their methods or what they do. There is no short cut or learn quick system. Of course I write songs because I want to not for commercial success. If you want a good critique then post in the Mp3 forum or in the Lyric feedback forums......in amongst the pats on the back there are some pretty honest knowledgable free appraisals from people who write pretty good songs and you will save money. What if Jason Blume or his trained associate does not like the song but everyone else does?...do you go down the road of writing to his formula or stick with crafting your own......we need originality in this world full of clones.

When I read the comments condemning Blaze Trak why does the phrase "Spread The Wealth Around" come to mind.

Nope, he's never placed an ad here. Nice try to attack an honest an open person in the industry who donates tons of time and help with zero strings attached. Ott, every time you open your mouth via a post here, you put your foot deeply in it.

I really hope Ott spends ALL his money on unproven services willing to take his money far above market rates and offer little or nothing of value in return. Then perhaps he'll stop posting idiotic statements here.

Brian

BTW I too have Jason Blumes book 6 steps to songwriting success.
Follow his teachings and you just end up being a clone writing to the formula for the same old one dimesional tired cliche songs.
Now some would see that as a good thing....and buy the book. That is probably why a lot of pop music sounds the same. I prefer originality and folk writing to their own formula not poor copies of what has gone before.

To Anyone Finding This Long Long Post:

As the founder of Just Plain Folks, I've spent the last 15 years (and going back further in other artistic disciplines), helping musicians in a variety of ways and always for free. I've also brought in a variety of professionals from all areas of the industry to offer more free advice and guidance. In addition, I've created a place where peers, the most valuable people in your career as you start off, can share what they learn and know and where open discussion and debate can take place. Among the many topics involved are which companies are honest, moral and worthy of your time and patronage. Many companies approach us (or instead, like the case below, just come to our site looking to take what they can get without offering anything of value to anyone who isn't going to pay them first) to promote what they are doing to our members. Folks like Ron of Blazetrak want FREE and EASY access to the community that I have built with tremendous hard work over many years. But alas... let's move on.

I made an upfront offer, based on Greg Watton, a long time member here, staking his personal reputation on them, to do due diligence and give Ron a chance to demonstrate the value of his service to highly talented professional musicians who would be among the EASIEST to help of our 50,000 members. After all, if you can't be of benefit to them, what possible good can you do for anyone their equal or below? The obvious answer is that if you can't help someone READY for commercial success you can't help anyone at all except the same small handful of artists that breakthrough each year already. (Because the sad truth is that no "service" is going to increase the demand or number of opportunities for music, at best they might be able to shift it to someone else if they offer real value, but that's for another discussion about those companies who live up to that challenge).

I said (you can read the exact words earlier in this post, I don't have them in front of me as I type this) I'd write about any successes they were able to provide those artists which would be an unbiased and honest assessment of their company. I would do that for free and that could be the end of the matter if they wanted. I also said if they declined, it would tell me a lot as well. After all, it's easy to SAY you are transparent, but it's a different matter to actually BE transparent. And a write up from me to our 50,000 members is worth far more than the cost of using their service, so any benefit would go their way, not my way. In fact, I'd be the only entity to NOT benefit from the work. (Since I'd have to set it up, round up the artists, follow up with the progress, and write the article and then publish it in our newsletter to a community I personally created from scratch with years of hard work on my end). Since I would be putting my own reputation behind the truth in the article, I had to have control over the variables (such as which artists) so I could be sure it was all legit. After all, unlike Greg, who mistook a press release as an unbiased news story, I wanted to offer a factual recap of the real value and truth behind this company. And I was hoping we'd find something surprising: A useful, moral and worthwhile company providing a service that could actually help someone who was ready to be helped.

So what happened? I got the following response declining my offer.

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Ron from Blazetrak Said: First and foremost, I just want to say thank you to this whole community for having an open dialogue about Blazetrak. All of your comments, both positive and negative will help us tremendously to improve our product and hopefully provide better services for you. Brian, I appreciate your offer, but I will decline. Here is why:

Brian Responds to Ron: That's what our community does. Though you may be thrilled with the free feedback on your company, I think we learned enough about you to form some strong viewpoints on your business model and approach, but I doubt it's what you were hoping for.
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Ron from Blazetrack Said: #1. Music is 100% purely subjective. Who you think is the best has no bearing on what I think, or what any of our pros think (even with your massive music awards program endorsement). All great music is not commercially viable, and vice versa, some bad music is. With that being said, who you hand pick could really mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. (and i say this with the utmost respect to you and your accomplishments).

Brian Responds to Ron: So as I read your statement, you are saying that even your own "pros" opinions mean nothing. Since in Ron's opinion no one person's opinion means anything, then what value are you providing beyond a high priced vanity stroke?
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Ron from Blazetrack Said: #2. Our goal is not success stories and that proves nothing in regards to our model. Yes we love success stories and we want them to happen as often as possible, but we don't offer that. We offer an opportunity to present yourself to people you admire, respect, and/or would like to work with (or you just really want their opinion or advice). Hopefully you present something to them that will move them in such a way that they want to continue to interact with you outside of Blazetrak). This is our value proposition. You either think that is worth paying for or not. If you don't, then there is no need to use our service.

Brian Responds to Ron: So again, you are acknowledging that your model has nothing to do with success of those using it. Your value proposition unfortunately only has an actual "value" to those of you raking in the cash. Value to those submitting (and paying the outrageous fees) to you is only measured in vanity/ego stroke and not based on anything resulting in success, income, career advancement or anything an intelligent person would view as a "value."
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Ron from Blazetrack Said: #3 We don't need your endorsement for success stories. Any success story that happens on our site is an endorsement in itself. We don't need you, or anyone else to validate it. When someone makes a submission on our site, then finds themselves in the studio with the same exact person they submitted to a few weeks later, all because of Blazetrak, it is already undeniable. We were the catalyst that made it happen and that is the fact. Maybe they make a hit record and make millions of dollars, maybe they show up at the studio and completely choke, leave and never hear from the person again. That part of the equation does not involve Blazetrak. You used our service to get in the door, now its your job to STAY in the room.

Brian Responds to Ron: A success story that happens on your site means nothing unless someone can independently verify it wasn't just an insider deal dressed up as a success. Many companies who have been exposed as scams used that exact tactic and without independent and unbiased evaluation it's only the word of those financially gaining to prove any success actually came about from using your service. You are smart to shield yourself from liability and legal trouble by saying "that part does not involve Blazetrak" but then it also means you shouldn't be able to take the credit either since it wouldn't involve you. But oddly enough you are making that claim earlier in the same paragraph... that you were the cause of what led to someone being in the "studio" with one of your "pros." Of course, no more details are offered, such as whether more money is being taken from the Blazetrak customer from that Super Producer (or whoever it is, you don't say) to make a recording that also has no chance of going anywhere, but sure does fill up that empty studio schedule that even the best producers can find themselves facing today with the massive retraction of the music industry. Taking you at your word (since no details are given) you have demonstrated how deep and dangerous a vanity scam can go. This tactic (i.e. you pay to be "discovered" then are passed to the next vulture to be bilked out of more money on the hopes you can keep buying your way to success) has existed in Nashville and LA for decades. Technology has just added a better mousetrap to catch the mouse and drain his/her blood more efficiently). Does this apply to Blazetrak? All I know is I was offering you a chance to have your process independently reviewed by a trusted entity in our community, which is a significant piece of your potential market (I am not sure of any larger collectives that would make such an offer to you). But you don't really want that independent review based on your response. To reasonable people that raises some flags. You'll be able to get free promotion by flooding message boards with promotional spam of sites less attentive or aware than ours or with much smaller member bases or both. But who is going to put their reputation on the line from someone unwilling to be critically reviewed? Anyone who does is a problem themselves. By the way, if something in my suggestion went to far, but Ron was really interested in having an unbiased look at his business, he could have countered with another suggestion. But that's not how he responded. See below:
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Ron from Blazetrack Said: #4 People from your membership have already used our service and will continue to do so (while paying our fees) if they feel it can help THEM with or without your blessing, and I am sure they will come back and report their findings anyway. You run a great organization and I commend you on it, but at the end of the day, people will make their own decisions on what is best for them, and whether something can be of use to them, regardless of what anyone else says or thinks. I am willing to bet on that side of the human character.

Brian Responds to Ron: None have previously indicated anything to me except Greg and I followed up. One reason people come to our message boards is to find out if a service is legit, a scam, or in between. Most scams by the way are perfectly legal and often have a common theme: They prey on the weakest in the herd, those DESPERATE to find success even if they have to buy it. You imply the possibility of major success very well without crossing any legal lines as far as I can tell. I don't question that you'd be a successful politician. My job is to be an educator, an encourager, a networker and a protector of the JPF community and grassroots artists at large, which I've been doing without my hand in their wallet along the way. Since you've stated clearly here that my opinion or "blessing" (your word) about your company will have no impact on who uses your company, then it's clear you've stated in writing that nothing I can say or do can help or hurt your company. That's good to know for the record. Don't forget you made that statement clearly and unequivocally. Based on that statement, I will continue to respond.
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Ron from Blazetrack Said: #5 I am wondering if you asked Taxi, or any other companies you endorse to give you a few freebies to prove themselves. Doing due diligence to learn more about a company or organization is one thing, but to ask for a handout so to speak and dangle your 50k members as a carrot just seemed a little off to me. But hey, this is just how my crazy mind works.

Brian Responds to Ron: Actually, what I got from TAXI was far more intrusive and I didn't even have to ask, they offered anything I wanted. And I didn't ask you to give me a freebie or anything else. I offered you a chance to demonstrate the value of your service using a handful of proven talents which I know aren't in bed with you or your team and offered YOU a freebie, an accurate accounting of any success stories that came from the trial experiment with no further strings attached. A "freebie" suggests I am getting something from it which is clear from the offer I am not. Actually, I was offering to help your company in ways money could not buy. An unbiased demonstration of the value of your company. And by the way, companies offer free samples of their products or services all the time. It's a common business practice as long as the company is legit and has nothing to hide or fear of being exposed. For example the film industry allows critics to come and see films for free all the time because when they have done great work, they want to get the word out from trusted sources. On the other hand, when they know their movies suck bad, they don't allow reviewers to see their films until they are already out in theaters because they know an honest assessment will ravage their early sales and when the movie sucks, that's the only time money is really made, once word is out they've made most of what they can because people were kept in the dark except tightly controlled press releases, misleading trailers that paint the film in the best possible light and, something you should really understand, lots of BIG FAMOUS NAMES to attract unsuspecting masses. And the reason why a critical review means more than 1 single person (who may not really know what they are talking about) is that good professional critic have large followings who tend to trust their advice. Quite an apt parallel I think.
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Ron from Blazetrack Said: Again, I have the utmost respect for you and what you have built here at JPF. My intent for coming here was not to win you over so you could endorse us to your membership. I came here to tell you and your membership our story, and be completely transparent in regards to how we operate and what we offer, then hope that you would find it useful. I feel like I have accomplished my goal.

Brian Responds to Ron: Giving us a press release version of your company is the opposite of transparent, it's a one-way narrative. I was giving you a chance to be transparent, which you've declined, and gone on to further suggest I have no influence within my organization (even though you said you hoped I would find it useful). I find that comment very interesting. I guess we'll find out, not amongst a small handful of people on this post, but upon all the folks on the net that find this post when searching and who read your comments and mine. There are always going to be plenty of people who will try to BUY their success, usually because they either don't have the talent to do it for real, or they aren't willing or able to do the hard REAL work to make it happen. So when someone comes along and says "just pay us lots of money and you can talk to a famous industry person" there will sadly always be people lining up to pay, whether the people behind it are honest or not. In addition, companies like that will often pass off these easy targets to their idle industry friends to be further exploited. Sure, the vanity business has always existed. And I can't stop any of the ignorant or lazy people who want a quick, workless path to success. The same folks fall for all sorts of scams like fad diets or politicians who make them believe they really do have their interests at heart. But I can try to help educate some of those folks and for those with a clue (and a little less desperation) and who are ready and willing to learn the truth, I can inform them on how similar schemes have been done to people before and taken their money with little value in return, and I can warn them when someone is an out and out scam artist or is conducting illegal activities. You're right that I can only help those ready and willing to be helped. I am sure you'll find people looking for fame and fortune via their checkbook and astronomical luck. There's more than one sucker born every minute and I am sure you'll be happy to take their money.
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So we'll let folks read this and any other posts about your company that pop up on our site which we'll try to link back to this one so folks know where we stand and see where it goes.

Conclusion:

My strong recommendation is that our members and any musician surfing through who reads this to learn more about this company save their money and spend some time learning about the many FREE ways you can advance your talent and career using not only JPF but many other folks who will give you feedback and mentoring for free just as useful as what you'd be paying for minus the high fees and celebrity judges.

Once you've learned more about that and gotten a reality check on how the industry works, I (and other honest and knowledgeable people) can suggest (for free) a variety of ways you could invest (not necessarily money, but time, energy and hard work) in your career which would offer you far more benefit than a few minutes of video from someone who may be far more interested in cashing in on desperate and clueless musicians than really helping someone. I doubt anything illegal is happening, but when it come to a question of morals, that's another story.

Bottom Line about Blazetrak from the info supplied:

If you take away the vanity appeal of it all where you're sending your money to very rich people (and their friends and relatives) it's simply a very expensive critique site. There are no other stated benefits. Sure, they IMPLY more, but quickly distance themselves from any real connection to further benefit. (Because in my opinion that would be risky in a legal sense).

If a studio is charging 2-5-10-20 or whatever times the market rate for a service, we'd all recommend against it, especially if you weren't 100% ready for commercial success because the resulting product would be worthless beyond vanity which does not help your career, but can clean out your bank account quickly. Like the old saying, no matter how much you polish a turd, it's still a turd. (Producer/Writer Patrick Leonard was the first to tell me that, but it's been credited to dozens of different people).

If someone here who has not demonstrated commercially viable work pays ridiculous prices and is delighted to hear bogus positive feedback (easy to do on even the worst of the worst music if you want to get (or keep) someone hooked) they are certainly going to whip out that checkbook, buy more credits and waste more and more money. And if they prove to be a huge mark (what the scam industry calls someone willing and able and dumb enough to spend huge cash on their scam) they'll be told exactly the right things to string them along and sweet talk them and appear as their friend or safe business contact, as long as money continues to flow. But real people in the industry don't keep charging talented folks with promise. At most they will want to attach themselves to future success (which can also be a scam if the contract is unfair), but at least it's a shared success model versus a "buy your success" model where the only success you are buying is that of the people receiving your money.

But I will say that Ron is polite and seems politically correct, friendly and inviting to all. That makes him quite a risky force to deal with because people believe politicians who use the same demeanor all the time. Look how well that usually turns out. Food for thought.

But all that's just my opinion, I could be right. To the artists/writers reading this: Ask yourself who is trying to make a buck off of you, it might clear up whose motives are what.

To Greg and Linda and Ott and others using or supporting this model, spend away. You guys know a lot more about these things than I do right? ; )

Be careful out there folks, success requires talent, hard work and persistence. You can't afford to buy success. Multinational corporations are way ahead of you and even they lose 100's of millions trying in vain.

And one final thought: Your spouse or significant other doesn't charge you to love you. But a prostitute can simulate that for a fee. Which is real? The one you pay for from a stranger or the one that comes for free from someone who loves you for real? You can't "buy" real friends or contacts. That's not real. Don't get fooled.

Brian

Jason isn't baiting and switching anyone bro. He actually teaches people how to write songs for commercial use. So there's more to what he and his team does than just "critique" songs. Thought you should know that.

As far as Jim having a problem with what Jason offers, I think he has a great service he offers. But then again, my opinion probably doesn't count here anymore.

Brian,

I've only used their service once and I got good results out of it. I didn't use Blazetrak because I HAVE to. I used it because I was curious about the service. It worked as promised. I got a guaranteed video response from the industry professional I chose to submit to. I didn't see anything dishonest about that.

For the record, I don't NEED Blazetrak's services and I didn't need it BEFORE I used it. Based on my experience with them, I decided to let other people know about it here.

I will still back up what I said about staking my reputation on my conviction and based on the fact that they deliver what they promise, I will not back up and change my story. Their service delivered as promised. What more can I say about that? I was a satisfied customer.

You can't buy friends, I agree with that completely. You can't buy years of building relationships and the experiences that go along with that. I agree with that completely. You can't buy love. Again, I agree with that completely.

BUT, you CAN buy a few minutes of a person's time and that IS ALL Blazetrak is offering. The relationships built AFTER, aren't being bought. The guy I submitted to wasn't obligated to give me his contact information. He isn't obligated to do anything more other than give a video response.

I think both parties offer valid points. I suppose it's up to the consumer to decide what they want to do.

Oh and Jason Blume has a book out called 6 Steps to Songwriting Success. GREAT book. I got a lot of use out of it and it's helped me fine tune my own talents back when I read it. You can buy it at any bookstore and if they don't have it, you can have it special ordered or just go on Jason's website. I think you can order it there.

Yes Greg, that's called prostitution. It has it's place if you so consider it to be part of your ethos.

I must say, like Midnite, I've run out of popcorn.

Brian, I gotta hand it to ya. Someone here called me an amateur. I truely am, in regards to your response.

But then again, when you're an educator, and not a money grabbing vanity proposer, I guess the difference is obvious.

Nice work.

cheers, niteshift

Oh! My

Greg: I apologize for the "bait & switch" comment. Though I still think that to use the "people he's trained" to do critiques is disengenuous. If the professionals on Blazetrak used the same disclaimer, I wouldn't touch then with a twenty foot pole.
Ott
p.s. I still will be using Blazetrak's services.
p.s.s. I've read every book he has ever published.

The definition of prostitution according to dictionary.com is as follows:

1. A woman who engages in sexual intercourse for money
2. A man who engages in such activity, especially in homosexual practices
3. A person who offers his talent or work for unworthy purposes

This debate is turning into something that I never intended for it to turn into. I appreciate Brian's response. I appreciate Ron's response, and I appreciate everybody else's response.

I know some people are going to say Blazetrak qualifies as "prostitution" under definition #3, but let me point out the definition of "unworthy" first:

1. Not adequate of merit or character
2. Not commendable or creditable

Blazetrak never lied about what they're about. They never lied about what they can do. They presented themselves well and they defended their integrity. In no way did they try to deceive anyone and everything they offer and promise is crystal clear (read the entire thread).

The only time they would become "unworthy" is if they didn't follow through with everything they promise.

"For the record, I don't NEED Blazetrak's services and I didn't need it BEFORE I used it."-Greg Watton

That's my point. YOU don't need it because you've been doing the work to build contacts already. If, on the other hand you hadn't done all the work you've already done, then what interest would they have had in you? Zero. Unless of course there was going to be MORE money in it for them. But sure, if you already have contacts and success, it's not surprising that someone on the same level would talk to you or want to see if they can benefit from your contacts and hard work. That's how it always works. But this company has inserted a FEE into what normally happen naturally based on mutual interest that didn't involve a fee.

Greg, you came here at first and post a completely false and poorly verified claim that the Wall Street Journal had written a story about these guys. (And to be clear, Blazetrak did not make that statement, only Greg did). You act impulsively and always have and it has often not worked out well for you. You have also (to your credit) replaced that knee jerk strategy with patience and hard work that led to some real contacts and opportunities for you in the business. But you reverted back to the old Greg on this one. And you dragged a lot of people, some well meaning, some clueless, some not so well meaning and some from outer space to go back and forth about this. Since Ron had come here on his own to try and benefit from my hard work to promote his company to our member base on the cheap and without our usual scrutiny, we hashed this out in public. Some don't seem to like that I have a process of due dilligence to check folks out. Tough. I don't care if you like it or agree with it. It means nothing that you disagree because it's MY reputation and name and my trademark's reputation at stake, not theirs. So you folks should feel free to post your own names behind anything you want, just put it on your own website in your own name, not on my site.

Had Ron come to me first, we'd have discussed these matters off site and made decisions if JPF and his company had any common interests or trust. I wouldn't expect him to be forced to place JPF's name on his site, he should have come to our site and posted his site's promotional messages without permission. It's interesting, company who has come to me first for permission to post about their company has turned out to be legit. I ask them questions, they answer. I give them requirements they have to follow if they are going to post and if they follow them, all is well. The ones we have problems with are the ones who try to benefit off the hard work done by JPF to build membership without bothering to even act with respect or professionalism before trying to snare some business, which this company admits to having done already. If not for OUR hard work, they wouldn't have gotten that business. We got nothing of value in return from them and that's how they want it. One way.

The one sided free ride spamming is over though. Ron is welcome to respond on this post, but going forward, Blazetrak the company needs to find their marks elsewhere. They aren't interested in being checked out to protect our members. They only want to make a quick easy free buck. Ack.

Brian

Let me defend Jason by saying that those people he's trained are like an extension of him. They're just as qualified to offer educated critiques of other people's work just as much as Jason is because he ensured they became qualified. Otherwise they wouldn't be working for him.

I've read a lot of Jason's books too and I think there is a wealth of information beginning writers AND seasoned writers can learn from. The books are a useful tool anytime, anywhere.

Greg,

Are you really going to suggest they are okay because they might not fit the definition of prostitution 100%? That's some endorsement.

By the way, prostitutes in Nevada, where it is legal, fits your defense:

"Blazetrak never lied about what they're about. They never lied about what they can do. They presented themselves well and they defended their integrity. In no way did they try to deceive anyone and everything they offer and promise is crystal clear"

Legal Nevada prostitutes fit that as well. So what?

But let's not compare BT to prostitutes even though they might fit your definition. You can't buy REAL love and you can't buy REAL success. (and to make this a little political, you can't cut a deficit and get out of debt by spending more money, but I digress).

Brian

Brian,

I was responding to Niteshift's claim and countering it. Obviously my response backfired on me. This isn't about "prostitution" anyway.

I'm not going to try to argue with you either. You've made some valid points and I'd be interested in seeing what Ron's response to you is.

How can it be put any simpler ?

If you don't know the difference Greg, then you need to learn the difference.

cheers, niteshift

I should probably just shut up now.

Come on Gerg, you're a decent guy, and your work really speaks for itself. It's top notch. Not to my taste, but top notch all the same.

I feel it is beneath you to have the views that you hold. And what's worse, promote them to folks which are just passing by and don't have a clue.

Take that pork chop offa your neck mate ! ( please see previous post )

cheers, niteshift

Nite,

Thanks man. That actually really means a lot to me that you said that. Truthfully, I think if a person CAN get in the door without having to pay for it, they SHOULD take that route and develop all the relationships they can and network, do the hard work et cetera. Truthfully, that will cost money too, but if they CAN do it that way, they should.

I do think BT is worth a shot for people who are good enough and don't know how to open the doors that others can. Perhaps they COULD lower the fees to a more affordable cost because the average person in the current economy isn't making enough money to make a service like BT worth their while. While BT guarantees video responses, there really is no guarantee that anything beyond that would happen for a submitter unless they favorably fit the bias of the listener.

Brian, your arrogance no longer surprises me. "Since Ron had come here on his own to try and benefit from my hard work to promote his company to our member base on the cheap and without our usual scrutiny, we hashed this out in public. Some don't seem to like that I have a process of due dilligence to check folks out." Ron did not start this thread.
Greg started this thread, in the sincere belief that he believed this was a legitmate business site. And all you do is condescend to him for this supposed indiscretion, because the owners of the site did not give in to your demands?
Here's a countdown for you. First, the posters who agree with you: Niteshift, Big Jim Merriless, Songcabinet, Dan Tindall. And now, a list of people who disagree, or are at the very least, thinking this business model might be appropriate for some individuals : Greg Watton -- Linda Adams -- Donna Marilyn -- Mike Caro -- Bill Robinson -- Kevin Emmerich -- John Voorpostel -- Jody Whitesides -- Tampa Stan -- Johnny Daubert -- and me, Ott Lukk. Just how many "Top 100" posters are you blowing off?
Ron did not kiss up to you, so you blew him off. Just like you do to anyone who disagrees with you. Throw me another insult because I disagree with you? Big whoop. Go ahead. In the mean time, consider the possibility that your members do not always need your precious guidance, and can think for themselves.
Ott

(Note from Brian: I edited this post without changing a single word of what Ott said, but to correct a partial sentence which I had edited in the original post but after Ott had quoted it. I did not touch Ott's words in any way nor did I change what I said beyond changing a run-on sentence to a shorter easier to read sentence which made better sense. I will respond to Ott below).

Please, let's not get into any personal attacks here. That was not the intent of this thread. :-(

I think if Ott and Brian have any grievances toward each other, they should speak about it privately and resolve it that way. Everything that needed to be said in support (for/against) BT has been said and there really isn't anything further that can be said about it. Let this thread be what it is and those who read it in the future can go through ALL the points of view and can come to their own conclusion about it.

Ott, buddy you are way out of line.

Brian ? Arrogant ? I don't think so. Is is your own ignorance which is being displayed.

I joined this site about 4 yrs ago now. Just stumbled across it, and have been here from that time. Why ? Because there's a great bunch of people here. They all give their time and they share their experiences in order to make things better.

Each has a small but specific skill and life experience. Through that, we all benefit. And we do it for free because it is so damn hard to make it in this business, you may as well sit down and slash your wrists.

Please don't call Brian arrogant Ott. It couldn't be any further from the truth.

And please don't try to dismiss intelligent men. They will simply brush you aside.

cheers, niteshift

Here's actually an objective and unbiased view of Blazetrak from an angel investor podcast called Sharktank. It's pretty cut and dry and the assessment talks about both the pros and cons of what Blazetrak is proposing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9AwMhunLjE

Greg said it better.....

cheers, niteshift

Ott,

Once again you simply put your foot in your own mouth. Ron came here originally to promote Blazetrak on his own. A simple click of his name and a look at his own self created posts will see that. You'll also find I treated him nicely and with respect on those posts. But this post exposed some concerns which led to more discussion and then direct back and forth.

It was when Ron acted with huge disrespect towards me that I lost respect for him. I made him a very generous offer in good faith with nothing to gain for myself. He could have said "How about instead we do X, Y or Z to demonstrate we're not just a vanity site etc." and at least that would have furthered the discussion, which in my experience honest companies with concerns would do. What you would NOT do is insult the owner of the site you are currently profiting off of (and I stand 100% by the comment which you quoted) because I am the one who put in the work to make this community exist and I expect if you want to come here and use my site or the programs offered in JPF you'll be a positive part and not a leech. We run leeches off of here all the time. Because up until now Ron had been professional and polite, I gave him every opportunity to demonstrate he was offering value over vanity. Had you read my post without the pre-bias you have against me, you'd have come to a different conclusion. I disagree daily with both Jim and Nite but when they are right, they are right. And when the others you mention are wrong, they are wrong. I made my argument and left everyone's comments here pro and con for rational people to make their own choices. According to Ron, my opinion means nothing to anyone in terms of support or non-support of his company. I find it offensive then that he came to my site to USE us rather than add something of value to the community in return for promoting what he was doing. When the time came for real transparency due to concerns raised, he declined and made no counter. I believe that is because his site offers nothing more than a pricey (far above market value) critique from a famous person for vanity purposes. He makes no other claims and thus, I can't see how any of my conclusions differ from his own admissions other than he thinks it's worth it and I do not.

On this single post Ott you've made ridiculous claims multiple times that were false. It's not just that you are wrong, it's that you are ignorant with an agenda. I warned you before and for a short time you dialed it back. But like the scorpion in the old tale, you just can't change your nature and I am no frog willing to let you ride on my back across the river waiting for your next attempt to sting. So as I promised you, you are taking a vacation from our site. Have a nice time elsewhere.

Brian

Oh man. :-( This thread wasn't intended for it to turn into a pissing contest that resulted in people getting personally attacked or memberships being suspended/revoked. :-( I kinda' feel like this might be my fault.

Yes Greg, it is your fault. And you are going to be boiled in smoking oil and spend the rest of your life in perpertuity where they are going to play you boy songs until your ears bleed.

cheers, niteshift

Greg,

Just remember.. you put your reputation behind this company which started this. That means something. It's a lesson I really wish you'd learn before it becomes far more costly than a message board post. Though I appreciate that you've come to the right conclusion, it's unfortunate the carnage left in the wake. But, let's be clear, you did not cause the owner Ron of responding the way he did. He did that all on his own. And Ott has been a disaster for a long time. He's had some issues which I will not divulge here, but one I can discuss is his hatred of me and my involvement with my own site. I never understood why he wanted to stay here as there are other message boards where he might be far happier, where people will put up with his falsehoods, personal attacks and stupid statements.

I think I might paste the primary discussion points of this post on it's own post so folks can just read the relevent commentary. Ott always felt I had a grudge against anyone who disagreed with me. Well, I just agreed with two of the people I publicly disagree with perhaps as much as anyone on the boards. So how exactly would that work? I consider Nite and Jim and Linda and You and pretty much everyone else on this board I personally know a friend. I would exclude Ott. And as for Ron, I have no personal issue aside from his loss of decorum and illogical cheap shot on me and the weaknesses of his business model that lend themselves to abuse of members of our community. He's on record saying nothing I say or think about him or his company can help or hurt them to our membership. Well, saying nothing at all and giving zero exposure itself would have already cost him money from those he's suckered into spending money based on this one post alone. That's awfully reckless based on all his previous polite correspondence and supposed respect for myself and JPF.

Regardless of my impulsiveness on calling the press release an article (which I admit was a stupidly impulsive thing), this thread has been a very important debate that is educational on many levels. Despite the opinions (on both sides) regarding blazetrak, it exists and I am positive there are plenty of people in the world who will continue to utilize the service for whatever purpose they may have.

I think it's an intriguing business model. Sure, I think certain things could be changed about it to make it better and more user friendly. After watching the podcast by the shark tank, they mentioned that it could be a good idea if the professional donated their portion of the money to a charity of their choice. I think that would make their business model more attractive to the consumer. But I digress.

I don't have any personal grudges or feelings against anyone who posted on this thread (pro or con) and yes, I consider you a friend as well Brian. I'm honored that you consider me one. :-) We all agree and disagree on many different things. That's what makes us all unique. If everybody agreed on everything, we'd live in a pretty boring world.

I'm not sorry for creating this thread. I think there's plenty that was said in this thread for many people to learn from. There is a wealth of information and lessons to be digested here. I am sorry that some people felt like they had to turn into personal attack dogs. I hope they learn in the future not to do that.

Greg: You come off like a pro to me -- keep doing what you are doing. It is great to see hard working folks have successes in this brutal business.

Brian: You certainly have a way with words and can put things in perspective that makes it understandable to the "masses".

Ott doesn't need me to come to his "defense", but I will say he has become a regular and valued contributor on the MP3 thread (even if he does complain that I am a Simon Cowell wannabe in PM's -- ha, ha). I know JPF is much, much bigger than the MP3 thread, but since that is where I spend 90% of my time, I thought that I would point out that he is a "well-behaved" participant over there. Of course, I don't know what has been going on behind the scenes.

Kevin

I don't know what to say about all this.
Brian you have said I am wrong to believe as I do and Big Jim is right(edit) to believe as he does.
I don't know who or what God gave you the power to decide who's beliefs are right and who's are wrong but I reject it.

That I think BlazeTrak's business model is appropriate is my opinion.
And from what I can tell from searching the internet it seems to be about 50/50 split on whether people would use their service or not but I had a hard time finding anyone who called them a scam.
What I did find were industry people who gave examples of what it cost them to get their music into the hands of people like John Rich or Beyonce. Most said they had spent Thousands in their efforts to get their songs in front of them to no avail. The sheer volume of people wanting to get heard is overwhelming. At least with BlazeTrak they have a guarantee of the person actually hearing their music.

I'd like to know under what circumstances you can guarantee that?

Blaze Trak is NOT for everyone. But it might be for someone who is talented enough but languishing in the netherland of the music business lost in the sheer numbers of folks trying to make it.
Nashville hates Gherms. Gherms are the wannabes that are trying to get their foot in the door who approach the "Stars" and try to force their music on them.
Would I expect John Rich to open his door for me? No I wouldn't. (Even if I did have the talent)

For what I would pay to Taxi for one year to get some unknown in a booth to listen to thirty seconds of my song I might be able to get several established Artists or industry professionals, of my choice, to listen to one of my songs and give me a personal critique. And I will actually make PERSONAL contact with that person. Does that mean it will go any further? NO. But it might.

NSAI is the same. They are not free. You pay to be heard. I have gone to their play for publisher nights myself. It's like a cattle call. And you do not get to choose who you meet. You do get to play your song. Thirty seconds. But you do NOT get a critique. I have gone to their critiques and it is decent but again you don't get to choose the Professional.
At the NSAI pitch to publisher nights there are people from all over the country there. They spend hundreds or even thousands to get there to be heard for thirty seconds.

I just don't see the difference between that and what Blaze Trak offers.
Matter of fact I actually think Blaze Trak offers a better deal.
But that is only my opinion. I might be right I might be wrong.

Blaze Trak has been around for a while. I guess time will tell if they are successful or not.
It seems it is not just for songwriters. They seem to have opportunities for other industry professionals as well. Auditions are offered. You pay, yes. But what would a person who lives in Nebraska spend to attend an audition is New York? $500.00, $1000.00. I would think at least that much.

I need to understand this because is see this as a business model worth paying for.


Is it because Blazetrack charges money for something you (who disagree)feel should be free?


Brian et al, two very important and relevant to this conversation concepts I've taken away from here is... "it's not about who you know but who knows you", and no one wants to be a "ghermer" because that is a sure way to oblivion.


But people WANT and NEED these connections, and WANT and NEED to put their work in front of the right people.


Here is a service that uses the internet and the "excess time" of industry professionals to connect two people. This infrastructure takes money to set up, and the industry professionals who agree to provide their time, knowledge, experience etc deserve to be paid.


Now if we look at the "old way", these meetings are done face to face, via introductions, because someone stakes their reputation on that introduction. Even under the "old way" the talentless or as yet "underexposed with a small fan" base had no chance to be heard by the pros because no one would be willing to sponsor them.


Moreover, the "industry" also runs on favours, so someone's introduction always came with some expectation of quid pro quo.


So here BT facilitates the introduction, and no one needs a sponsor, just a very reasonable sum of money gets them exposure to the right kinds of people OF THEIR OWN CHOOSING.


There's also a deeper and more subtle "wrong" in demanding this to be free, or condemning it because it is not.


Just because some people offer up their services for free does not mean everybody has to. Just because you can get Open Office for free does not mean Microsoft has to give their software away. Just because I participate in free tax clinics for the elderly does not mean that when I do charge for that service that I am somehow unethical.


The beauty of free enterprise is that you can try to develop a business model that generates a profit. It means employment, and money keeps circulating, and it stimulates the economy. But it also means you may fail. It is really the consumer who will decide.


Here BT provides a service that not only connects someone to an industry professional where the talent stands on its own merits, but it does so cheaply (save air fare, hotels, time, effort) and effectively.


And Brian, just because JPF is free does not mean everything has to be. Your model is entirely different from BT. Folks connect here, and mentors gather here because they want to, and BECAUSE IT SERVES THEIR PURPOSES. You have a marketing background. You and I both know the world runs on "what is in it for me".


For example, I think Marc is an awesome person, generous, knowledgeable, talented etc, but if you ask him to be honest about why he's here, one of his top three reasons is "because I run a business in Nashville and this is cheap exposure for me". You may think this is selfish, but I'm betting it's the truth and I respect him for being smart in his business.


You do this JPF gig because it exposes you to the industry, and you are building a legacy in the business. It opens doors for you, and you get to mingle with people in the businesses. You don't do it for money but for ego...to be remembered as an internet community pioneer and the founder of a great on line organization. It gave you the opportunity to travel and meet "the industry" and accomplish an initial goal you had...to write a somg with a musician from every one of the US states.


Should we condemn you for these "selfish reasons"? Just because your "currency" is not cash, does that make your reason somehow more noble?


Not charging for a service is a choice and sometimes it is a strategic choice made for business or personal reasons. But that does not mean that charging for it is unethical.

Oh man, am I really over this sh*t.

Seems to me, those that have actually done something in life are on one side, and the wannabes are on the other.

I'm no superstar, yet there's plenty of ( well known ) folks who will come around to my joint and say hey. I wonder why ?

Morality is a judgement call. No more, no less.

And whom do I wish to be aligned with ? A rag tag bunch of folks who will rip each others eyeballs out, then sit down and have a beer, and get on with life.

I love you guys, but sometimes I just wish to bang my head on the desk till it bleeds.

Be seein ya'll.

cheers, niteshift

So go ahead and bang Night.
I can never understand why some people have to resort to personal insults when someone disagrees with their point of view.

it's the "done something's" versus the "wannabees"
or maybe those who see the forest from the trees
I wonder if you can tell which is which
in any case, the music biz sez life's a bitch

So pay you money and spin the wheel
no way to know if you'll get a raw deal
maybe it's blume, taxi or blazetrak
but in every case you still need jack

Whatever some might think of Brian's reasons for offering his time and hard work to this sight is irrelevant, it cost YOU nothing.
I think that's the point.-Dana

I must admit, if Blazetrak had Bennett or Streisand on their critiquing roster I'd be seduced. Even Harry Connick, Jr, Michael Buble, or Diana Krall.

John

Oh my.....

Over 300 posts, over 1,700 views and what have you learned, what have you lost and what have you gained?

There are only THREE reasons to be here that are productive:

1. Greg, who I am interested in what he has to say made a post, you've all read it.

2. Everyone posts their take/experience on it, all different, but they are personal points of view.

3. Wait for Brian's take because lets face it, us newbies need that perspective.


Then, you made the best decision for yourself and move on, it is your life and money, who are we to TELL each other WHAT to do, just do what is best for you considering your mentors advice.

Instead, we have folks who will argue their point of view to the detriment of the board, trying to change everyone's mind and make them define every minute detail of their ideas.

Also, we have the folks who zoom in and out and drop comments meant to stir the pot to keep things going, for what purpose really?? Please stop instigating this.

Either you are lonely, argumentative or stubborn, but you are caught in a circle my friends, no one is going to stand up and proclaim that you are "RIGHT" or the "WINNER", there is no winning. You had your 15 minutes to state your ideas...now move on.

There are lyrics left unread and songs left un-listened to and most of the FREE commenters that we all wish would listen to our stuff are trapped on this thread.

BIG JIM, when is the last time you listened to my songs...I sit around wishing you would, but is this more important to you? I'm on two boards you are on and nothing, what have I done?? Mr. Robinson?? How about you? Maybe I need to start a big argument to get your interest, if I became controversial, would I get your attention?? Or aren't you interested in helping me out (I am using myself as an example but am representing all posters who are serious and need comments).

I do not mean any disrespect in what I have just said, but some of you don't understand that we all sit and wait for your attention and wonder why you don't give it, maybe you don't realise your importance here. I appreciate your "take" on this subject, but it was heard over 1,700 times, is there nothing else to do here?

There are many people who aren't even at the point of being able to consider this service idea, but we will never get there if JPF freezes up because everyone wants to be right and not be polite to one another.

I think the good, bad and ugly of this company has been fleshed out enough...can we go back to work now?

I know you are all clammering to be heard and understood, but you had your say, what more do you need? I NEED SOMEONE TO LISTEN TO MY DING DANG SONGS and some of the best people are over here caught in this never ending circle and not going anywhere!

I am sorry for raising my voice, I'm a little bit frustrated.

Tammy

You're obviously right Niteshift.


It is far better to pay to belong to IAC and hope that someone in the industry drops by, looks through all the independent artists there, and finds your work, then may or may not listen to it. In any event, you'll never know who was there, who listened, what they thought...but that's better right?


And dangling the free "bronze service" in front of you, then going for the upsell to paying for it because a free, two song, 8mb limit, and limits to usable templates, stations etc is nothing, well, that's OK right?


Maybe you should pay for the more premium Platinum or Gold service? Or the cheaper Silver service if you can't afford those? Oh wait, I see you do pay for one of those plans. Sounds like blatent "market segmentation" to me. But that's OK right? Just find how much someone can afford or are willing to pay and charge them that. Just make sure the introductory free stuff is very limiting. That's OK right?


That you are prepared to pay to "broadcast" to a wide, undefined audience, using a vehicle that makes you one of many choices that makes it almost impossible to stand out, but balk at paying to "narrowcast" your work to a specific audience for the specific purpose of getting through their door is beyond me. But hey, your money and your choice.

Dayson, my point was that Brian made a choice to make it free...but that does not mean all things that help other get ahead in the business should be...and that his choice to make it free is based on individual motivation, be it a business decision or a personal decision....and most importantly, people always do things based on "what's in it for me?...so that even if you are not paying for it, there is a benefit to providing it for free.


The internet allows for lots to be free because the revenue model makes it free to consumers. Youtube, Google, Facebook etc...they're all free for you, but make tons of money and are worth billions.


I created a Canadian tax forum, kinda like a jpf for tax professionals, that is free them...but it is a strategic asset to me....beyond gaining about 140 tax partners across Canada, it is a strategic fit in a suite of websites I operate for the benefit of Canadian business owners and their professionals...and I'm planning more. They're free for users, but would not have been so unless there was something in it for me.


You critique lyrics and\ or interact here because

1) you want your own work critiqued
2) you want to learn the craft better
3) you want to develop on line relationships with others
4) it's free
5) insert your own "what's in it for me?

No one does anything without a reason that speaks to "what's in it for me"

All right, folks, move along. Everyone go home. There's nothing to see here. Just move along, everyone. It's all over. Move along.

So now we have people coming into this forum telling the posters to "Move along".
Thread police?

Tammy
I spent a great deal of time over the years in the Lyric and MP3 forums. That I choose to not participate there at this time is my choice. After a couple thousand critiques I needed a break.
Like Brian says, JPF is not just the lyric forums. They are a minor part of JPF.
How many of the 50,000 members ever even log on here.

I feel as though a very unfair picture of me has been painted, and I feel it necessary to defend myself.

I would just like to post a PRIVATE MSG I sent to Brian on June 9th 2010...Yes 2010, immediately after my very first post on JPF which can be found here (please note the times of the posts):

http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthr...k&topic=0&Search=true#Post823870

#135079 - 06/09/10 08:13 PM

Hello Brian,

I just posted a topic about our company Blazetrak and I just wanted to make sure we werent breaking any forum rules with the style of our post. We know how messageboards can be about advertisements and we do understand. I read the FAQ's and I think we are safe. Please let me know if it is acceptable.

We have a very legitimate business that that musicains all over the world are finding VERY useful, and we just want to share the information. I would also be happy to speak with you directly if you feel like you need a little mre information on us before determining the validity of our service.

Thanks,
Ron

I only post this to completely refute Brian's statement about me not coming to him in the very beginning to have an open dialogue between me and him personally to discuss Blazetrak. He did not respond to that message just for the record. Since I received no response from him, i continued to post openly, and assumed I was in the clear. It was not until THIS post (almost a year later) started by a member of your community, unbeknownst to me, that there is now a problem.

Also, never once have I disrespected Brian, or anyone else within this community. I disagreed with Brian, and gave my reasons. I am not obligated to give a counteroffer. Never once did I insult you Brian. You completely twisted the words that I wrote to service your own agenda. I never said that your opinion means nothing to YOUR community. Here is what I said just so we are clear:

People from your membership have already used our service and will continue to do so (while paying our fees) if they feel it can help THEM with or without your blessing, and I am sure they will come back and report their findings anyway. You run a great organization and I commend you on it, but at the end of the day, people will make their own decisions on what is best for them, and whether something can be of use to them, regardless of what anyone else says or thinks. I am willing to bet on that side of the human character.

Now if you are reading correctly, what I said was that people are going to make their own decisions at the end of the day regardless of what anyone else thinks, and that is human nature. For you to imply that I said your opinion solely means nothing is just ridiculous. If anyone should be insulted it should be me. First you did not tell the truth in regards to me reaching out to you, which maybe says a little about your credibility, and second you managed to relate me to a prostitute, a crook, a scammer, risky, a spammer, a leech, illogical, abusive to your members and probably a few others I missed. Is that how you treat visitors to your community who happen to disagree with your stance? Also, if anyone happened to do any research of Blazetrak, we offer SEVERAL free critiques and opportunities as well.

Again Brian, I have nothing but respect for what you managed to build here, and clearly your members respect you. At the end of the day, and this is what I attempted to say before: People will make their own decisions in regards to what they think will work for them. Are you entitled to your opinion, of course you are. Do I think you should bad mouth me and my company or any other company that you never even tried in the first place, well I think that is a little unfair. But hey, this is your house and you run it the way you please. Im just a visitor.

Either way, I think this is a great debate. Its unfortunate that it turned ugly. I hope I am still welcome here. Time will tell.

Ron

Three or more pages have vanished....

I am almost ready to post a new topic. Blazetrak, My experience with them. YES I have used them, a few times as well.

Unless loads ask me not to do it. Don't want a war lol

God Bless Roy and Helen

Naw they're still there Roy--I get 'em--Click on "First" down there at the bottom and they'll come up