JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Help to Upgrade Ideas @ JPFolks

More tolerance for different genres and styles, and more encouragement for young, aspiring musicians.

...... There was a recent rap video here that was bashed, though, as I recall (Nova) -- OK, that was intolerance (ha, ha).

.....

...There is a difference between nurturing and a mutual back patting club. Sometimes we are guilty of back patting when we should really be pointing out failings and weaknesses. Whilst it is great to receive great feedback and acclaim it can be counter productive to lull people into a false belief that their songs are anything other than what they are.

Intolerance? Hardly....

I added "More Contests" and "More help /instruction" as two things to add. I am not that big on contests, but I am big on challenges (like http://FAWM.org or http://RPMchallenge.com). Some of you might visit http://www.songfight.org/ or other things like that.

Some kind of organized activity might keep things fresh -- but contests at sites like this just become popularity polls after awhile. We have a challenge section here already -- we just need to get that into the mainstream activities section somehow (and make it critiquable -- is that a word?).

Great job Joice but before I vote, can you add seeking collaborations also to the lists???

Hi Joice and everyone,

First, thanks for taking action to gather helpful info to improve the message boards. It's very thoughtful of you to jump in and help out. I think we might learn some things, but I think we should work on a more inclusive set of questions and reword some things.

I think we should add Just Plain Folks "MESSAGE BOARDS" since most members who have joined JPF have never even seen the message board. I estimate of the 20K registered users, about 10K were never on the JPF member email list (which is the official membership requirement/indicator) and of the 50K JPF members, that means 40K have never registered and many have likely never even visited the boards as unregistered readers. That's one reason to make some changes here in hopes of giving more of thoe 40K folks reason to get involved and use the message boards.

None of the changes should disenfranchise current members, so the goal is to add to traffic and make the boards more useful to everyone. I think the options for answers are limited as well. We do not just have songwriters in JPF, over 90% are active musicians with at least 1 CD released and so there's no reference to reasons a recording artist would want to come here or what would keep them here etc.

I am also considering adjusting the site rules after I spent some time today on several other busy boards in other fields and found some good ideas. One is that there is ZERO tolerance for any foul language, any attacks or gratuitous off topic negative comments etc. I realized that many sites with huge memberships use these types of rules to keep from flame wars or fights or other issues ruining the enjoyment for everyone. Fortunately we have very little of that, but some of their sites have 100 times as many active users as we do and still manage to keep trolls from ruining things.

It's easy to suggest moderators should keep people in line and warn them etc. but Kevin (who has really helped a lot) and Mike and myself combined still will likely miss stuff, so we need to set the rules and ask for help from all of you to A: let us know when bad stuff is happening and B: to nudge people going in a bad direction to back off before we need to take action.

We have a "time out" feature that can block people from logging in for a day or however long we choose, so rather than ban someone, we can have a cooling off period if needed etc.

I really want to have a range of options here. Some boards and topics for people to just chat and talk about anything they want, but ALSO boards which focus on topics and don't let them stray nor allow for squabbles to become damaging. I also feel even stronger about using real names. Some very solid boards require that as mandatory and it makes things far more professional. And if people have a legit reason not to reveal their identities to the general public, they can simply contact me and make their case. Outside of that, people lying about who they are after a brief initial trial period would be removed.

I am happy to hear thoughts on that. I am not even sure Joice, but is it possible to edit or change your existing survey without starting over? I do agree having surveys are good and can be fun, my concern has always been that on important issues, it is tough to get enough feedback to make a quality decision. Would 20 be enough to make a major change? 50? 100? It is tough to get more than 25-30 people to take a survey in the past. Perhaps we can improve on that with some effort.

I don't want to diminish your interest in helping out. I am very happy you're reaching out to help. It is critical that we have more people stepping up. I just want to be sure we get info out of it that really helps us succeed.

Thanks,

Brian

On the any ideas for improvement "please write in" do we write in here???? I'm blonde!!! (well..almost)

...In regards to the Challenge Forum -- I participated some - Enjoyed it -- but it never seemed to take off -- across the whole board here.....just a sub set of people

Any Ideas as to how that could change ? ...

All new writers should get back-patting and support, with criticisms presented in the softest possible ways. After a period of learning and gaining confidence, then more constructive criticism is needed.

Intolerance -- Absolutely! Why? "so typical of rap put me off the whole culture", "..rap is crap." Instead of just sticking to the song presented, you two decided to trash the entire genre. Of course I agree with you (ha, ha) -- but I don't think it is necessary or useful for me to say that here.

Do I want to see JPF taken over by the Death Metal Punk Rappers (DMPRs) of the world? Not really, but if that happened, it would be just the way it goes.

...There was no mention of being new Kevin. ...

As someone with a Decade's-Worth of Lyrics-Posted here, I'd wish for an Improved "Search" Feature... It's not very-easy retrieving a Lyric, even if ya know the Title...

I came here becuase Justice wanted to become a singer and we soon determined that to go anywhere she needed to have her own songs. This was the place to learn.

There was no mention of being new Kevin. Only the best female rapper alive and check out the free style rap. Certainly had there been mention of being a new writer things would have been different.
As to what I said, you took it out of context and Kevin, that never works.
"The truth of the matter is, Nova, that bit is a prime example of why, with some fairly rare exceptions like Brian mentioned, rap is crap.

The best female rapper alive? Hardly.
If you follow Brian's advice you can certainly rise above the bottom dwellers where you're now apparently mired."
I did not trash the whole genre, only what is crap. If that happens to be most of it, so be it. It's up to those who write and perform RAP to make it better and not simply revisit the same old same old.

As someone with a Decade's-Worth of Lyrics-Posted here, I'd wish for an Improved "Search" Feature... It's not very-easy retrieving a Lyric, even if ya know the Title...

It'd be interesting to have some Reportage on the Marketing Aspect of "How Hits Happen". The Story probably varies a lot, genre-to-genre. All would be interesting, methinks.

As someone with a Decade's-Worth of Lyrics-Posted here, I'd wish for an Improved "Search" Feature... It's not very-easy retrieving a Lyric, even if ya know the Title...

It'd be interesting to have some Reportage on the Marketing Aspect of "How Hits Happen". The Story probably varies a lot, genre-to-genre. All would be interesting, methinks.

Joice Marie I love you girl for getting into this.

Whatever we do, the people out there must be engaged, so "theory threads" as well as "practice and learn together threads", collaboration rooms, project rooms, challenger rooms, as well as other things I've seen above are all good ideas.


The JPF experience on the board is all about the exchange between two or more people...so focus on making that exchange as "rich" as possible.

This book tells you how hits happen, despite the negative opinions of those who have not read it! http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/994400/page/1#Post994400

When doing peer-critiquing, anything goes. Anyone's opinion is just as valid as anyone else's. That's both a pro and a con of peer critiquing.

As "pros" you get a range of opinions. Some folks are going to like anything they read, some folks will like nearly none of what they read. Also, you get to collaborate with others of like mind an ability. You get to critique as well as be critiqued.

As "cons" you end up with "group-think" where the group develops its own values which may or may not match the songwriters' natural audience. There is no experienced "teacher" role, someone who understands how people learn and grow, and how to coach people without either breaking their spirit or giving them a false sense of "greatness." Someone with a dominant personality can have an effect on the development of the group. If that dominant personality has strong prejudices or personal tastes, it can dampen a creative atmosphere for those with whom they disagree. And, something I've seen happen on the boards here: groups or "cliques" can form around one or more dominant personality and hen peck a weaker personality ridiculing their style (in one particular case I, personally, saw nothing at all wrong with their style) or leaving our forum (which is what finally happened with that guy).

Critiquing, itself, can be varied. For a teacher, critiquing art should never be ad hominem. Ad hominem is ok for popular critics on the tv shows or in blogs, but it has no place in education. Then, the question is, are we here to educate or entertain ourselves? I'm not familiar with the particulars of the case to which Kevin and Dak are referring, but I'll invent a somewhat similar one. Let's say someone comes to JPF with all kinds of hubris, announcing they are the greatest country songwriter of all time. Then folks read their songs and find them to be ok, good but nowhere near great. Folks might attack and ridicule them for such boastful pride and arrogance. Now let's say those same songs are presented by a likeable, rather humble person. Folks might over-inflate the value of their work. The trick is to separate the songwriter from the song. Also the trick is to decide if the role of the website here is to have good songs or good members. Do we want new friends or do we want songs to improve, even if we don't particularly like the person...or do we not care if songs improve as long as we make our friends happy?

If we want to educate, we need to critique a piece on its own merits, apart from whether we like the songwriter, their politics, or the genre of the song. However, the truth is, we may not be here to educate. We may be here simply to play our songs to each other like some big writers night with no publishers in the audience, clapping for each other and clapping a little harder for our friends. LOL. And that's ok, but I'm not sure if that's why Brian is working so hard maintaining a forum.

Joice,

Thank you for your initiative in trying to help make this board even more enjoyable than it is. I like your ideas of FEATURE, SPOTLIGHT, INVITE and believe this would be a valuable addition.

Peace,

Dave

Hi Joice, I voted on the things that seemed relevant to the reason why I came here.
I found this site by accident after I recorded my only CD in '06 and was looking for feedback. You could say that I put the wagon before the horse. JPF was also recommended to me by a personal musician friend from the Tampa Bay area. I've since learned invaluable recording techniques from others here and the links that are provided.

I've actually changed and/or rerecorded some of my recordings because of suggestions from the MP3 board. So it does work.

Tom -- Can you Expand your thoughts on WHY -- you felt This was the place to Learn

Thanks
jm

Great Experience ! -- Thanks for coming back and sharing this
jm

Joyce --- I looked at several sites and found that JPF had the best information and the best people. The feeling here is terrific - very helpful. The best example was Mike Dunbar's wonderful assist. J will always remember going to Nashville for the recording of the tracks for six of her songs for her first cd - under the guidance and production my Mike. It is remarkable to think that a 10 year girl with no experience could be there in the vocal booth while five of the top studio musicians in the world performed her songs. Holy catfish.............

Tom

I came to this site when I was a newer songwriter several years ago and have learned so much from more seasoned writers. Many were very patient with me as I would put up multiple re-writes and offer help and or approval to help me move on.
I found one of my first collaborations on this site with Colin Ward. He was super nice enough to take me under his wing and help me with songwriting even though I am only a lyric writer per sae. We have collaborated on several songs and I continue to pitch our songs to artists, in hopes of a break one day.

I continue to learn from this site though to be honest I have not been on the site as often in the past 6 months, for several reasons.
The main reason was because I had major surgery and songwriting went on the back burner for a long time and I am still not writing as often as I used to. I am trying to go more for quality than quantity.

Other reasons I have not come to this site as often as I used to...
I do feel frustrated at times when it seems a song that is not country does not get quite as many comments. Many of mine are not...I have one now actually that I am afraid to post because it has one curse word in it...though some can write kinky sexually toned songs and they are praised..but I feel here I have to tread more lightly perhaps...
I do see or feel sometimes certain people are getting pats on the back more then constructive and honest critiques. I feel sometimes when I try to be honest and helpful, it is not taken in a good way and some writers never take any of the advice they are given, which is fine if they are the artist and want to sing stuff as they want to but if they are wanting to pitch the song professionally, as I strive to do, we all need true opinions on what we feel about the song, but gently of course. No need to tell someone hey, this stinks, but offer advice on what it needs.

It seems sometimes more lyrics come through than songs and I wish we could see more of these lyrics becoming true songs...

There are several members that continue to put up either songs and or lyrics almost daily yet the only crits they give are one liners, like---this is a love song and it tells the truth...what does this teach the writer? If one likes a song tell us what they like, so we know where we are hitting the mark...

I am not sure about putting the lyrics into genres because often a lyric can be a number of genres, depending on the music..but to have a few boards for the genres on mp3's may be good. I just hope all the country writers will be willing to actively participate in critiquing the other genres, as often as possible.

I hate to think that Brian would ever consider giving up on JPF. I for one feel it is one of the main sites responsible for my growth and continued growth as a songwriter. I want more polished and professionals joining us too, to offer all the lyric writers and none singers out there, ways to maybe find collaborations...

I hope this helps some Brian. I am very appreciative of all you do for this site. I appreciate the kind souls on this site and the talent!!

Kimberly