9 members (Fdemetrio, couchgrouch, Gavin Sinclair, bennash, rpirone, Sunset Poet, Everett Adams, 2 invisible),
903
guests, and
319
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.
By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
.
by Fdemetrio - 04/25/24 01:36 AM
|
|
|
|
.
by Fdemetrio - 04/24/24 10:25 AM
|
.
by Sunset Poet - 04/24/24 08:09 AM
|
|
|
.
by Fdemetrio - 04/23/24 10:08 AM
|
.
by Fdemetrio - 04/23/24 12:41 AM
|
|
.
by Fdemetrio - 04/22/24 10:39 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
.
by Fdemetrio - 04/22/24 11:04 AM
|
|
.
by Rob B. - 04/21/24 08:40 PM
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 42
Serious Contributor
|
OP
Serious Contributor
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 42 |
This is perhaps the wrong forum to post this article in because many of you guys are lovers of Country music, which is well known for quality lyrics and a real understanding of lyrical construct. I am guessing many of you will consider the lyrical content to be extremely important to the overall quality of a song. However, I am about to propose that lyrics are perhaps less important than one may first think. I'll admit, I am playing devils advocate a little because we all know that lyrics are very important, but stick with me, I may have a point and it may throw up a nice debate! The overwhelming majority of people will say that the lyrics are the most important part of a song. They'll claim that the lyrics are the thing they like most about a given song, especially a ballad. This afternoon I played devils advocate with my girlfriend who told me how she loves Stevie Wonder - Over Joyed Stevie Wonders - Over Joyed. I agree with her that the song is awesome, but I wanted to know why she likes the song so much. She told me that the lyrics are beautiful and explained that the lyrics are the primary reason she loves listening to the song. I proposed that the lyrics play a tiny role in why she likes the song. I explained that if we took the lyrics and sung them in a grungy, upbeat punk way (which I know she dislikes) then the lyrics would carry no meaning and she would avoid listening to the song! I went on to suggest that perhaps the vocal tune, chord progression and instrumentation were the key reasons why she likes the song, and that the lyrics were the “icing on the cake”. From my own perspective, I know that there are many songs that have average lyrical content that I can listen to over and over, but I can think of no songs that I enjoy listening too which have great lyrics but a poor musical/melodic content! An example of a song that has pretty basic lyrics but a great feel for example would be Lenny kravitz -- Sugar Lenny kravitz -- Sugar or Omar Lye-Fook -- World Of You Omar Lye-Fook -- World Of You I still haven't opened my recording studio in Birmingham (UK) yet but we have plans on introducing a song writing workshop and networking group when we do. Topics like these are great for getting a discussion going and forcing writers to think more deeply about what makes a song attract and connect with listeners. I must make my position known that I do believe lyrics are incredibly important. In fact, my “devils advocate” argument is somewhat invalid because we all know that a song is made from many parts and all those parts need to work in harmony. The greatest songs manage to have the best of all worlds, great lyrics, music and vocal melodies. However, the fact remains (for me at least), I do prefer great music and vocal melodies over poor music and great lyrics. This leads me to conclude that the lyrical content is slightly less important than the music and vocal tune. Is this conclusion controversial, short sighted or spot on? Let me know what you think and how you rank the overall importance of the lyric content in a song compared with other fundamental elements. Finally, I have to drop a shameless plug for my song pitching platform Audio Rokit. Songwriters always needed by top music industry reps and may be a great tool to gain exposure for your music.
Last edited by Brian Austin Whitney; 12/30/12 04:27 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,831
Top 30 Poster
|
Top 30 Poster
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,831 |
Hi Darren:
Your "banner" or topic title hints that you don't believe that lyrics are important at all... LOL! After reading your post, I would say that your observation is pretty close. The music is always (well, nearly always) more important than the lyric but they both need to compliment each other or contrast sufficiently to accomplish the writer's or writing team's objective.
Good luck with your music and a hearty welcome to JPF.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 61
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 61 |
Hi!
I think the music is the thing you get caught in when you listen to a song for the first time, but in order to keep you interested for a longer time and possibly to achieve some kind of "maturity" a song needs to have good lyrics. I don't think there's too many songs we perceive as "classics" with less then good lyrics.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,003 Likes: 1
Top 20 Poster
|
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,003 Likes: 1 |
Darren--
I agree with Dave basically--but IT always depends: THE IN-CROWD-Ramsey Lewis Trio, LOVE IS BLUE-Paul Mauriat, and many others like TEQUILA- Champs--ALL INSTRUMENTALS--Then there are the SPIRITUALS, WITH NO MUSIC, just a MELODY-GO DOWN MOSES--
I think the whole ball of wax added with the VIDEOS work together to enhance the SONG, no matter what genre!
ONE DAY IT MAY NOT BE A SONG UNLESS IT HAS A VIDEO!
Mackie
Last edited by Mackie H.; 11/15/11 12:38 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 6
Casual Observer
|
Casual Observer
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 6 |
The lyric is as important as the music if not more important. The bread and butter to me is the melody. If you can sing your lyric with no music and it's still catchy then your good to go. All in all the music and the lyric both need to work together to make a great song.
Justin Callahan
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,710
Top 100 Poster
|
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,710 |
Ah, Papa-oom-muh-muh-muh-muh Ah, Papa-oom-mow-mow Papa-oom-mow-mow Papa-oom-mow-mow Dit-dit-dit Papa-oom-mow-mow Papa-oom-mow-mow Dit-dit-dit Papa-oom-mow-mow Papa-oom-mow-mow
The funniest sound I ever heard Papa-oom-mow-mow Papa-oom-mow-mow But I can't understand a single word Papa-oom-mow-mow Papa-oom-mow-mow But if he's serious or if he's playin' Whoo, my my is all he's sayin' Papa, whooo Baba-baba-baba-whoooooooo!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,941 Likes: 3
Top 10 Poster
|
Top 10 Poster
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,941 Likes: 3 |
Wop-bop-a-loom-a-blop-bam-boom Tutti frutti, oh Rudy, tutti frutti, oh Rudy,... I think lyrics are very important.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,827
Top 50 Poster
|
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,827 |
Lemme see....
Bass Drums Guitar Keys Vocal Performance and Delivery - *most important of all Backing Vocalists Melody Song Structure Song Musical Arrangement Recording Mixing, Engineering and Production Post Production and Mastering
..... and of course lyrics do go in there too, in no particular order.
Conclusion ? ..... the lyrical value equates to about 10% of the value of the finished work..... and also needs to be the very best it can be in addition to all the other parts mentioned.
cheers, niteshift
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 71
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 71 |
Hey everyone, I am just new to the site but great to hear your thoughts on lyrics & music! What you've all said makes sense & has merit. Thanks for sharing, & all the best with your songs!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
Top 20 Poster
|
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463 |
Depends on the genre...but IMO lyrics are relatively unimportant compared to melody, arrangement, production and performance. These things are what make a hit before considering lyrics.....to illustrate my point folk cannot sing most songs the whole way through without going lah de dah cause they have forgotten the lyrics. They remember the odd verse and chorus and some hooks but that is about it....now if lyrics were the number one important thing then folks would remember the lyrics but forget the tune. Today's pop music is mainly repetitive moronic nonsense when it comes to lyrics.......more often than not the melody is pretty one dimensional but it sells because of the rhythmic beat and the production....most kids have no clue as to what the singer is singing about....I also have a problem making out some of the modern lyrics because of really bad diction and pronunciation.....and why everyone has to sound so nasally is beyond me.....as forthe overuse of Melodyne.....just one question......WHY?
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,891 Likes: 6
Top 100 Poster
|
Top 100 Poster
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,891 Likes: 6 |
I see Darren has set yet another hare running Sometimes the lyric is not that important however sometimes it is everything. For every Bee Bop A Lula there is an I Will Survive and for every Rama Lama Ding Dong there’s a My Way. What is important is the message that needs to be conveyed. If you want to make a thought provoking statement about the history of pop then you need an American Pie if you just want to dance and party then Boogie Nights should do it. Lyrics are very important in the sense that they must be right for the song but that doesn’t mean they have to be some profound piece of prose or poetry. Depending on the type of song 'Shake shake shake your booty' can be as important as 'From a distance you look like my friend even though we are at war' - it’s all about context. Let me know when your studio is open I would love to pop in. Cheers Nige
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,911 Likes: 1
Top 30 Poster
|
Top 30 Poster
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,911 Likes: 1 |
The sound of someone with a nice voice singing appeals to most humans, often more than someone playing an instrument. The lyrics have to sound good when sung. They have to have rhythm, nice vowels, and often a hook that people can sing along with in their heads to a good melody.
In general. the actual meaning of the lyrics is less important than the way they sound when sung. Of course, some songs are telling a story and in those cases, the lyrics also have to make sense.
People like to hear operas sung in Italian, songs with dialects so strong they cannot understand what is being said, etc.....as long as it sounds good.
There are countless examples of important lyrics and unimportant lyrics:
Unimportant: Ob-La-Di Ob-La-Da Brown Sugar (bet you can't recite any except the hook) Billie Jean
Important: Ode to Billie Joe Love Story (Taylor Swift)
So, it depends.....
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,271
Top 100 Poster
|
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,271 |
I went on to suggest that perhaps the vocal tune, chord progression and instrumentation were the key reasons why she likes the song, and that the lyrics were the 'icing on the cake'.
A cake without icing is a bun...The age old question appears again lol. Nice to meet you Darren and a big welcome from London-UK I wont get drawn too much into this subject as its been done so many times, and very heated on occasions. I write lyrics only, and whilst I believe them to be be the icing on the cake, I also believe that the music and vocals on all my tracks made the songs special. For me its the whole finished package that counts. God Bless Roy and Helen
Last edited by Roy Cooper; 11/15/11 11:14 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,891 Likes: 6
Top 100 Poster
|
Top 100 Poster
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,891 Likes: 6 |
I would just like to register the fact that I don't like icing ... or marzipan for that matter - it's all food of the devil!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 29,275
Top 10 Poster
|
Top 10 Poster
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 29,275 |
Hi Ya Bother Darren, & Welcome!
Ah, the Age-Old Debate, usually started by a Musician...heh!
Last year saw a Number-One-Billboard-Charted Hit that was ONLY Vocal & Piano..Adele...Think it was "Someone Like You", check it out at VEVO.
Then, ask yourself if you'd have that tear in your eye if it was Music Only....
Back to penning my next lyric, & searching for good Musicians, like yourself.
Best Wishes, Welcome A-Boards, Stan
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 4,195 Likes: 1
Top 100 Poster
|
Top 100 Poster
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 4,195 Likes: 1 |
It is a very legitimate issue. I think lyrics are important but I also think that the degree of importance relative to the music depends on the genre and audience. I focus on teen pop and country - and I write very differently for each.
Teen pop requires a measure of simplicity and fitting the lyrics to the music. Generally, the way we do it, the music is written first and the lyrics are written to the music.
For country, I like to really make a focused story. We write the lyrics first and then do the music.
Tom
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 318
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 318 |
Lyrics are both the *most* and *least* important part of a song. At the same time.
You can name many instrumentals that are popular but you can name many many many more non-instrumentals. Naming the few successful instrumentals just shows how comparatively few there are.
It all depends on what you mean by "song" though, isn't it? "Song" has two distinct meanings. A "song" is the music and lyrics (often with a specific chord progression) that can be sung by anyone on any instrument. I can sing Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Dah on the guitar, piano, or accompanied by a harmonica, but it is the same "song"
However "song" has *come to mean* the *recording* of a song. "Did you download that new song?" means did you get that recorded track. A song plays on the radio, that's the whole enchilada, the singer, the instruments, the lyric, the mixing. So we get the two meaning crossed sometimes.
The better the lyric, the easier the song can move from the intial recording to other modes of expression.
Now, it's also true that before the 1950s, there were big bands, and instrumentals were widely heard and quite popular. Sometimes they had words, with a lead singer, but you had Count Basie and Duke Ellington hits that were all music. So in other ways, it's a product of the time and what technology is popular.
I agree that lyric are becoming less important (in some respects) due to digital music. As music is available 24/7, carried around with us, it is less of an event to hear it; it's on all the time, in our ears. It's now background to everything, and as "songs" recede into the background of everyday life, we hear the words less prominently. And if you listen to Pandora, and hear them choose singers who are similar to one of your favorites, they all start to blend together.
So yes, it depends. But a lyric is the great Diffentiator -- it's what elevates a song to a story or meaning that stays with you, that makes you want to hear that song again. It's still a key element. Maybe even more important than the bass line!!!!
And....in closing (applause, cheers), I'd argue that the lyric for Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Dah is *very* important and not just because of the carefully chosen nonsense words in the chorus. I have thought about Desmond's barrow and Molly's band for many years.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,827
Top 50 Poster
|
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,827 |
Hey Darren, I think it's about time for a Mike Dunbar "Who's On Your Team?" lecture. Followed by.... "You Do Have A Team, Don't You" lecture. A lyricist is part of the team. Nothing more, nothing less. If you're a musician who's lyrics are weak, you choose to work with a strong lyricist. Likewise if you can't play a 1 4 5, you hire a bass player who can. If you can't drum map, or actually play live drums, you include an ace drummer. I don't think one aspect is more important than another. It should all gel, and a lyricist who doesn't study their craft will end up just like a vocalist who can't pitch or phrase correctly. It's Ok, It'll all work out in the mix........ cheers, niteshift
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,997
Top 20 Poster
|
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,997 |
We all know it's all about the best or perfect marriage of lyric to a song Melody with words. Nige hit it really simply the "the right words for the music" Or the right music for the words. Elton & Bernie are one of the greatest examples of this in modern times. Think about some songs that are timeless and everlasting. You'd have to start with the music of Bach, Beethoven, Mozart,Brahms etc... Till this day EVERYONE knows this music kids graduate to it EVERY year, people get buried to it every day. Movies and TV keep rehashing it over & over... You'd have to be not human to not recognize the melody of the 5th Of Beethoven or Brahms "Craddle Song" And they are ALL instrumentals...... So you can have centuries if desired of MUSIC without one word being sung. But since it has you couldn't anymore. In a nut shell on the quality of lyrics it ranges, simple can be great, heavy and deep can be great.. Being effective is the most important thing. In some cases they can be NOT GREAT and still be a Big Hit.. Also STYLE or SUBSTANCE in many cases. Country - Can have the greatest heartfelt lyrics and some some of the lamest hokey things you could ever imagine. Face turn red in shame lines.... Dance - Can have the greatest feel good wanna get up and go lyrics or the dumbest ones you ever heard. A pure novelty! Rock - Can have the most unique and interesting lyrics of ALL music ever... But can also be so obscure and clueless, it would seem some bands take 10 minutes to write lyrics to there songs. They dont even know what they mean, but the devoted fan cheers and throw money.. Hip Hop & Rap - Some of the most catchy catch phrases, clever unique rhymes you could ever hear. Straight at the people from the people. Then again the over use of degrading women at ever turn.. Hoe's, & Bitches, Rims Bling, Money and VIOLENCE. I know it's a reflection but does every image need to be mirrored? Singer Songwriter Artist - At one time this artist had it ALL. It still does, with some of the most beautiful songs messages that are deep yet simple and there fans just dig deep into listening to them. Lots of PASSION make up this approach. But much like some bands these type can get away with MURDER. Come onto a late night national TV talk show. like the Tonight Show, sit there Out of tune, out of pitch and sing the same line 16 times in row like, "Give me strength oh chariot" or "You dont really see me" But because it's a cool minor chord an they look so sincere and passionate about what there doing they get away with it... Pop - Combine all of the above... SEX is the main issue here. Sex = Popular. well there's some Pos/Neg Yin/Yang for you The best songs overall lyrically and have great lasting power are the simple and great kind. Just take a quick stroll back to some Grammy Winners and Nominees of the 1970's and you'll get a great example of that.. Bridge Over Troubled Water You've Got A Friend Killing Me Softly The Way We Were Send In The Clowns Just The Way You Are At Seventeen This Masquerade Hotel California Fire & Rain What a Fool Believes Midnight Train To Georgia We've Only Just Begun Rose Garden American Pie The Wreck Of The Edmund Nobody Does It Better Hello? Singles... lets not even start with albums
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 232
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 232 |
Hi Darren I think a song needs both good music and lyrics to be a hit. If it sounds good I'll start listening to it. But if the lyrics suck, then I'll change the station.
Last edited by BonnieHickling; 01/18/12 05:31 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,707 Likes: 43
Top 50 Poster
|
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,707 Likes: 43 |
If a piece of music has a lyric, it's important to me.
I'm not interested in hearing a boring bunch of words that don't rhyme, or even that do.
I'm very word-oriented. I don't like hearing a voice hitting notes but distorting the words so I can't understand them. A lyric is a 'communication'. That implies the singer is 'sending' and I'm 'receiving'. If I don't understand the words, then the communication is incomplete.
Most people can relate to a lyric, even if they have little appreciation for the guitar work or keyboard work or percussion performance, beyond the beat. Even young children can relate to the lyric. That's why nursery rhymes are so entertaining to them.
As a songwriter, YOU are the first listener. You should be hooked the same way you hope others will be.
Sometimes you're not truly 'hooked' on the words, but you go on because you are 'hooked' by the pleasure of singing and playing. And sometimes what you're singing, entertaining yourself, is not entertaining to others.
There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,845
Top 100 Poster
|
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,845 |
It's interesting to ponder about, of course.
I don't believe you can measure it, like the question asks for. A song is a whole, and can't be reduced to it's parts. So a lyric might be the whole schiiiz, and it might not be as important.
Today, writing a serious and coherent lyric might sound pretty old school, no matter how great it is. So, I belive it's not just about content, but about style as well. Lyrics need to be written in an acceptable language style of the listeners (the segmented audience), and bring up issues that is important to the particular crowd. In some genres, you can't move beyond how to score and getting out on the dancefloor, without being uncool, and in some genres, those exact same things are uncool.
So lyrics are important, but from a writing perspective, you always need to be ahead of the game, and consider the audience you are aspiring to write for. That's why some lyrics seem ridiculous for some, and hits the mark for others.
Perspective, perspective, perspective!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,047 Likes: 16
Top 40 Poster
|
Top 40 Poster
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,047 Likes: 16 |
Lyrics are very important in Gospel music, without the lyrics it would just be another instrumental song, the lyrics is the message that convicts the sinner and convinces him/her that they need a Saviour.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31
Casual Observer
|
Casual Observer
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31 |
As someone who has always placed a high value on lyrics and consider myself at least half decent at writing them, I'd never asked myself this question until posting my songs on a facebook songwriting community page. I found that although I got lots of very helpful feedabck about my music, 90% of the comments made no mention of the lyrics whatsoever. This left me, and still leaves me pondering, if songwriters are not interested in lyrics, perhaps they are not as important as I thought. The few comments I have had in the short time I have been on JPF contain only one reference to lyrics. I'm not complaining, just wondering if that speeks volumes for the importance or lack of importance of lyrics.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,845
Top 100 Poster
|
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,845 |
As someone who has always placed a high value on lyrics and consider myself at least half decent at writing them, I'd never asked myself this question until posting my songs on a facebook songwriting community page. I found that although I got lots of very helpful feedabck about my music, 90% of the comments made no mention of the lyrics whatsoever. This left me, and still leaves me pondering, if songwriters are not interested in lyrics, perhaps they are not as important as I thought. The few comments I have had in the short time I have been on JPF contain only one reference to lyrics. I'm not complaining, just wondering if that speeks volumes for the importance or lack of importance of lyrics. I don't think you can deduct this from participating in public foras. Anybody can call themselves songwriters, and they can be very interested and engaged in songwritings for sure, but that does not mean they actually have well defined concepts about what they are doing. Professionals doesn't participate often in public foras because what they write is already in a professional context, and is therefore either owned by someone else, keeping them from exposing their work before it's officially released, or their work is peer reviewed by actual decision makers, who can determine if a song gets cut or not. Professional songwriters are already in a peer group with documented knowledge, so they have no reason to seek out public foras for reviews. If the pro's come out in the general public, it's to make easy money off of hopeful amateurs. I'm not saying anything bad about participants in public forums, but you have to realize what you are dealing with. There's a lot of fiction here in the virtual world!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,210
Top 50 Poster
|
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,210 |
Hi Ya Bother Darren, & Welcome!
Ah, the Age-Old Debate, usually started by a Musician...heh!
Last year saw a Number-One-Billboard-Charted Hit that was ONLY Vocal & Piano..Adele...Think it was "Someone Like You", check it out at VEVO.
Then, ask yourself if you'd have that tear in your eye if it was Music Only....
Back to penning my next lyric, & searching for good Musicians, like yourself.
Best Wishes, Welcome A-Boards, Stan amen mmmmmmm. that was all I was gonna say, but I decided to probably stick my foot in my mouth far enough to gag, but hey.... Some songs are driven by the music and the lyrics are junk, like songs by many pop artists these days, but they work, to dance to, drive to, whatever. I can get down to LMFAO's Party Rock... "Party rock is in the house tonight everybody just have a good time and we gonna make you lose your mind everybody just have a good time" very simple writing. Nothing new or unheard of before, BUT the music drives it, makes you wanna move, a celebration style of song. Then take the song by Adele, as Stan mentioned Someone Like You, --just one verse of this amazing tear-jerker " I hate to turn up out of the blue uninvited. But I couldn't stay away, I couldn't fight it. I'd hoped you'd see my face & that you'd be reminded, That for me, it isn't over" that last line is a heartbreaker, of course, the WAY she sings it and feels it...makes it even better. Lyrics matter in this song, I feel. The lady wrote it about a bad breakup, and touched upon many of our feelings that we have all faced at one time or another when running into someone we used to love, or who used to love us. I just feel it is a blanket statement to say lyrics don't count or really matter much. Of course for a mostly lyrical writer, it is a slap to the face, like what we do is not creative or important to a song. If the lyrics are good and have a message, or bring back a memory or bring a smile or tear, they are important....but then again, so is music...why do we have to debate which is more important, really? I love them both.
*Always open to collaborations on my lyrics.. with singers and musicians, but PLEASE contact me before putting work into one--in case someone else has it..thanks!!** BMI Member All Rights Reserved http://www.littleikepublishing.com Email for Song Business Only littleikeproductions@hotmail.com
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
Top 20 Poster
|
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463 |
As someone who has always placed a high value on lyrics and consider myself at least half decent at writing them, I'd never asked myself this question until posting my songs on a facebook songwriting community page. I found that although I got lots of very helpful feedabck about my music, 90% of the comments made no mention of the lyrics whatsoever. This left me, and still leaves me pondering, if songwriters are not interested in lyrics, perhaps they are not as important as I thought. The few comments I have had in the short time I have been on JPF contain only one reference to lyrics. I'm not complaining, just wondering if that speeks volumes for the importance or lack of importance of lyrics. Ken I have seen critiques on our MP3 forum where only the lyrics were discussed...the melody, music arrangement and production were hardly ever mentioned...some people almost re wrote the whole lyric but barely mentioned the melody or much else about the musication....the conclusion I come to is that it depends on whether you are a lyric writer or a musician....and your perspective is somewhat swayed by that....lyric only people concentrate on lyrics whilst musicians tend to think of the melody and arrangement etc. Lyrics are important to any song cause without lyrics it is a tune....that said there have been huge hits with pretty iffy lyrics....but I have never come across a poor melody that was a hit regardless of lyrics. I love both lyrics and melody and have been known to write one, other or both...but from a commercial POV IMHO the music is what sells...lyrics in comparison are quite far down the list....ther are exceptions but they are few and far between in popular music.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,710
Top 100 Poster
|
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,710 |
Big Jim, If you've never heard a poor melody that was a hit regardless of lyrics you haven't listened to much corporate country music coming out of Nashville for the last 20 years or so. But I can't blame you for that.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 13,325
Top 10 Poster
|
Top 10 Poster
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 13,325 |
i think it has to have both.there's no right or wrong,if i want to write an instrumental does that mean it's an unfinished song or if i want some really great lyrics to some handclapping does that suck?It's all what you like to hear i think.Look at the early musicians with great lyrics but not bad music just poorly recordings from back then.Someone in todays market picks up a Woody Guthrie or Blind Lemmon song with great lyrics and put some awesome mix to it,it's gonna be different musicaly but not lyricly.It's all food for the ears and everybody don't like the same!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 42
Serious Contributor
|
OP
Serious Contributor
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 42 |
Wow great comments guys! I read through all the comments and whilst everyone had some great points I think Nige nailed it with this statement; "Lyrics are very important in the sense that they must be right for the song" Some songs benefit from (and are better as a result of) cheesy, simple, shallow, fun (etc) lyrics. However, I think we'll all agree that whilst a lyric isn't always the most important part of a song, a great song combined with a thought provoking and equally great lyric seems to create truly great (and lasting) art! BTW: I had a few hours in a cafe today without internet. Aghh! My panic subsided and I realised there are other things I can do with a computer besides going online! The result, another post entitled: Celebrity Exposure For Your Music
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 692 Likes: 1
Top 500 Poster
|
Top 500 Poster
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 692 Likes: 1 |
The lyric just has to be true to the song.
There are exceptions. The melody to Mack The Knife is very happy, but the lyric is about a guy who's claim to fame is his prowess for stabbing people. ( I know, originally, in the german production of Three Penny Opera, the song was done in a very dour fashion, matching the lyrics ). Still, it was redone as a pop tune keeping the dour lyrics, and no one seemed to complain.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 7,712
Top 30 Poster
|
Top 30 Poster
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 7,712 |
Lyrics are always important. But I think even more impotant than lyrics is the production --- the way a record sounds.
Last edited by Jim Colyer; 02/05/12 08:09 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,448
Top 200 Poster
|
Top 200 Poster
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,448 |
Both, depends on the song and the genre. One some songs lyrics are critical and other songs they're irrelevant. Listeners usually dig the melody, rhythm, music and beat. From a creation point of view, lyrics can be critical to getting a song started, they can set the mood and melody, but songs are written both ways, some words first some mucic/melody first. If you are an artist you can write & record whatever you want. Sometimes lyrics can really limit a pitch. Good luck getting an artist to record a song like Alanis Morissette's "You Oughta Know" with the line "Are you thinking of me when you f@ck her?" or Liz Phair's "Why Can't I?" "We haven't f@cked yet, but my head's spinning" If you are a songwriter who wants other artists to record your songs, They need to be very well crafted, they need to jump out of the pile of songs they've searched through, lyrics can't be a deal breaker, you have to give the artist HUGE reasons to record your song. It needs to be incredible. it needs to be special. Lyrics are extremely important in country, americana, & folk. Not so much in rock or pop, but they can be really important, it's a judgement call from one song to the next. When comes to lyrics, some say country is substance over style and pop & rock are style over substance. The answers to this are, it depends on the song and on the listener. It's not fair to critique a pop song with a country filter & vice versa. There's nothing like an awesome song with a well crafted moving lyric It's good to use Lyric Writing Tools http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/537816/page/1#Post537816There's nothing like an awesome song where the lyrics are in a language you understand and parts or all of it is jibberish. There's nothing like an awesome song in a language you don't speak but the music melody and singer are so passionate that you feel the emotion. Like I don't speak or understand much spanish but I love Son By Four's song A Puro Dolor. www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAKVT1HWNsgthe singers passion and desperation completely comes across. Louie Louie's Lyrics are: CHORUS: Louie Louie, oh no Me gotta go Aye-yi-yi-yi, I said Louie Louie, oh baby Me gotta go Fine little girl waits for me Catch a ship across the sea Sail that ship about, all alone Never know if I make it home CHORUS Three nights and days I sail the sea Think of girl, constantly On that ship, I dream she's there I smell the rose in her hair. CHORUS Okay, let's give it to 'em, right now! GUITAR SOLO See Jamaica, the moon above It won't be long, me see me love Take her in my arms again Tell her I'll never leave again CHORUS Let's take it on outa here SO MAYBE NOT THAT IMPORTANT BUT THE LYRICS TO TODD SNIDER'S "BALLAD OF THE KINGSMAN" ARE: The Kingsmen came together in a garage, They could hardly even play But they practiced night And day pretty soon they got to where they could really play that song Louie, Louie So, they saved up all the money from the shows, Went in to one of them studios and gave their version of the song a try Now, I don't know the words to that song Louie, Louie and I'm pretty sure the singer for the Kingsmen didn't know ‘em either, If he did know ‘em he didn't get ‘em right on the record Cause on the record they sound jumbled in his jaw? It says, Me think of me girl oh so constantly Ahmayaaah makaaaah aahh ooohoooh aaaaah Well, that last part scared everybody from the PTA to the FBI You see, the kids had been going kind of crazy lately And it seemed like nobody could figure out why, So they decided to form a coalition, Launch an investigation, you know for the children, they at least had to try To figure out the words to Louie, Louie ChorusIt's the feel good hit of this endless summer It gets these kids out of control Singin along to that star spangled bummer, Hail, hail rock and roll Marilyn Manson’s real name isn't even Marilyn Manson, He's a skinny public high school Kid from Florida, Not some monster from out of this world and like of a lot other skinny long hair public High school kids he was sick of getting Beaten up by the pulling guard all week only to go out on the weekend, And watch the Quarterback get all the girls so, He formed a band man Now' he gets all the girls, A few years later a couple of latchkey kids go tragically Mad and everybody's standing around the television store at the mall trying to figure out what went wrong, This guy says, You think the life of a kid going to high school could've gotten so bad this other guy says nah, It's just the words to one of them goddamn Marilyn Manson songs, You know the one Chorus You know, every ten years or so our country and some other little country, We start firing all of our newest weapons At each other for some reason or another, right or wrong, Like it or not, it happens, and when it happens People get shot and when people get shot, They show it on tv a lot every night at six o clock And you don't even have to be eighteen to see it you don't even have to be in first grade, First grade where they teach the kid pride They tell him he'll need to thrive, In a world where only the strong will survive, So he's taught the art of more To compare to and to keep score Monday thru Friday while He stares at the floor til' Sunday they make him go to School once more only this time they make him wear a suit and a tie And listen to some guy who claims to know Where people go When they die tell him that only the meek are gonna inherit the earth Well [naughty word removed], By this time the kid doesn't know what anything Is worth, now brothers and sisters I am only one guy And I don't even know the words to that song Louie, Louie but I can tell you right now without batting an eye That the next time some latchkey kid goes wrong It aint gonna be cause that Eminem gets to say the word Fag in his song And I'm not trying to preach to ya either, I'm just trying to sing to ya too, you know string a few words together Hey kids... Lets get it on, Lets get it on ~ ~ ~ ~ YOU BE THE JUDGE WHAT ABOUT Imagine - John Lennon From a Distance _ The Rose Yesterday what a wonderful World or James McMurtrey's "We Can't Make it Here" Vietnam Vet with a cardboard sign Sitting there by the left turn line Flag on the wheelchair flapping in the breeze One leg missing, both hands free No one's paying much mind to him The V.A. budget's stretched so thin And there's more comin' home from the Mideast war We can't make it here anymore That big ol' building was the textile mill It fed our kids and it paid our bills But they turned us out and they closed the doors We can't make it here anymore See all those pallets piled up on the loading dock They're just gonna set there till they rot 'Cause there's nothing to ship, nothing to pack Just busted concrete and rusted tracks Empty storefronts around the square There's a needle in the gutter and glass everywhere You don't come down here 'less you're looking to score We can't make it here anymore The bar's still open but man it's slow The tip jar's light and the register's low The bartender don't have much to say The regular crowd gets thinner each day Some have maxed out all their credit cards Some are working two jobs and living in cars Minimum wage won't pay for a roof, won't pay for a drink If you gotta have proof just try it yourself Mr. CEO See how far 5.15 an hour will go Take a part time job at one of your stores Bet you can't make it here anymore High school girl with a bourgeois dream Just like the pictures in the magazine She found on the floor of the laundromat A woman with kids can forget all that If she comes up pregnant what'll she do Forget the career, forget about school Can she live on faith? live on hope? High on Jesus or hooked on dope When it's way too late to just say no You can't make it here anymore Now I'm stocking shirts in the Wal-Mart store Just like the ones we made before 'Cept this one came from Singapore I guess we can't make it here anymore Should I hate a people for the shade of their skin Or the shape of their eyes or the shape I'm in Should I hate 'em for having our jobs today No I hate the men sent the jobs away I can see them all now, they haunt my dreams All lily white and squeaky clean They've never known want, they'll never know need Their sh@# don't stink and their kids won't bleed Their kids won't bleed in the da$% little war And we can't make it here anymore Will work for food Will die for oil Will kill for power and to us the spoils The billionaires get to pay less tax The working poor get to fall through the cracks Let 'em eat jellybeans let 'em eat cake Let 'em eat sh$%, whatever it takes They can join the Air Force, or join the Corps If they can't make it here anymore And that's how it is That's what we got If the president wants to admit it or not You can read it in the paper Read it on the wall Hear it on the wind If you're listening at all Get out of that limo Look us in the eye Call us on the cell phone Tell us all why In Dayton, Ohio Or Portland, Maine Or a cotton gin out on the great high plains That's done closed down along with the school And the hospital and the swimming pool Dust devils dance in the noonday heat There's rats in the alley And trash in the street Gang graffiti on a boxcar door We can't make it here anymore Music and lyrics © 2004 by James McMurtry
Ande Rasmus sen Ande R a s m u s s e n@aol.com Ande R a s m u s s e n.com SongRamp.com/ande MySpace.com/anders
Texas Grammy Gov 06-08 grammy.com/Texas
Editor Of "Inspirations for Songwriters" SongWriterBlog.com Explore the message archive
To receive IFS SEND an EMPTY email to: difs-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 938
Top 500 Poster
|
Top 500 Poster
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 938 |
Depends on the ears doing the listenin' I reckon
Cheers Paul
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 7,712
Top 30 Poster
|
Top 30 Poster
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 7,712 |
Here in Nashville, lyrics are VERY important. I saw the Kingsmen in 1964.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,585 Likes: 13
Top 10 Poster
|
Top 10 Poster
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,585 Likes: 13 |
As important as lyric CAN be, it's rather unusual for people to actually know what the lyrics of a song are, even after hearing it dozens of times or more. Ask someone on the street to name 3 of their favorite all time songs. Then ask them to sing it to you (tell them not to worry about the quality, it's not American Idol or Candid Camera) and what you'll find is most know the main hook/chorus line and get much of the rest wrong, especially after the first verse. Sure, there's exceptions, but even on their all time favorites, people often can't get the lyrics right and in many cases, never actually understood all the lyrics. I bet some of you, if you're being honest, would have the same problems if I chose 10 very famous songs you'd heard many times for you to tell me the lyrics to them correctly. Truth is I can't even remember the lyrics to my OWN songs past my most recent ones without lots of rehearsals. BUT...
Most people will very accurately get the melodies right.
Sure, there are exceptions to it all, but go give it a try at your next gathering of friends and family and see what happens. You might be surprised.
Brian
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@gmail.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney "It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..." -Brian Austin Whitney "Sometimes all you have to do to inspire humans to greatness is to give them a reason and opportunity to do something great." -Brian Austin Whitney
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 161
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 161 |
For me, and I'm biased, the lyrics can often say something deep and poignant, which the music doesn't, and maybe can't. I can write a line which explains the whole premise of a song, but I'm not sure that can be conveyed so quickly with music.
Both music and lyrics are key components, but it's like asking how important is sun, compared to rain.
Andy
If at first you don't succeed, try the 'ON' switch!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
JPF Mentor
|
JPF Mentor
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574 |
Lyrics are important to music otherwise singers would have to go "la la la."
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash It's only music. -niteshift Mike Dunbar Music
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
Top 20 Poster
|
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463 |
A lot of singers DO go la la la or similar meaningless nonesense.......their music is just as successful as the songs with deep meaningful clever lyrics. I just watched a series of TV programs "Celtic Connections" a festival of International Celtic inspired folk music.....there was a host of diverse genres and famous names from many nationalities. Some performers sang in languages that most of the audience could not understand.....yet all performances were very much appreciated......obviously the music was more important than the lyrics. Lyrics are important but only in context depending on the genre style or purpose of the song. The Beatles had some real nonesense songs and pretty basic lyrics as well as some of the most profound clever lyrics ever written...yes I agree that lyrics are important but they must be right for the style of song.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 161
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 161 |
Jim, I have to confess, one of my favourite albums (7 Vies by Tina Arena) is in French and I don't understand a word of it, but it has a magical quality which I enjoy. Largely the instrumentation and arrangement. Her voice has always been great though, so the words don't seem to matter that much. http://www.amazon.com/7-Vies/dp/B002AXCLVQ/ref=tmm_msc_title_0/185-2419945-2634564Andy
If at first you don't succeed, try the 'ON' switch!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 19
Casual Observer
|
Casual Observer
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 19 |
Well on a twist to that, for me the lyrics must have a unified message. I have no problems listening to music where the lyrics don’t, but the only ones I truly remember the lyrics to, are the ones that do. It also depends on how deep is it supposed to go. Are they nonsense just filling the melody like another instrument, literal telling a story, or subjective relying on imagery or analogies? I like subjective lyrics, because discovering what they artist is trying to say, is like solving a puzzle sometimes. Once you get that, it adds an extra ah ha, to everything else. Pink Floyd “Wish You Were Here” is a good example.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
Top 20 Poster
|
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463 |
Hey Andy I do not know much about Tina other than her work on Zorro and the song Chains which is one of my all time favs...I cover it. I knew she was Australian but did not realise she spoke French. Must check out that album. Thanks.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 28
Casual Observer
|
Casual Observer
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 28 |
I remember when Macy Gray's "I try" first came on the radio. i had to pull over cause the words floored me. When the song is right the words can stop you in your tracks. It depends on the song if the lyrics are important. But the magic are the songs that at certain times you feel your life depends on those words. They got us through the night, gave us the couage to ask the question, and came on the radio when you hear you lost your favorite Uncle. Sometimes they are the milestones in our life.
Last edited by Sir Hick; 02/15/12 12:08 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 42
Serious Contributor
|
OP
Serious Contributor
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 42 |
Thanks for all your comments guys, it's been a while and I am more attentive to lyrics now than I was when I posted this originally. I still find it a damn chore writing them though!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,633
Top 200 Poster
|
Top 200 Poster
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,633 |
Some interesting points but honestly, a. who cares, b. sounds like small man syndrome to me, c. who cares, d. every time you change variable component of a song you change the demographic of the listening fan group and e. did I say who cares already.
Cheers
from someone who is really tired of "I'm more important cause I can compose" postings.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,448
Top 200 Poster
|
Top 200 Poster
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,448 |
Lyrics are very important, singers need something to say and something to sing. but melody and music are more important.
also different genres put different emphasis on lyrics, melody and music.
some say country is substance over style and pop is style over substance. We are all trying to find a new ways to express timeless emotions, universal stituations, feelings and stories.
You know you're on to something great when naked words on a page cause unexpected emotions in you and more importantly in others.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,652
Top 200 Poster
|
Top 200 Poster
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,652 |
Swag, swag, swag, on you Chillin' by the fire while we eatin’ fondue"
Justin Bieber...Need I say more?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,827
Top 50 Poster
|
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,827 |
How important is a lyric ? Not at all if you write instrumentals. cheers, niteshift
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 4,195 Likes: 1
Top 100 Poster
|
Top 100 Poster
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 4,195 Likes: 1 |
It is a great question. Sometimes it is not very important - a la Diamonds in the Sky.
Tom
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,589 Likes: 1
Top 40 Poster
|
Top 40 Poster
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,589 Likes: 1 |
Just look at all the different perspectives here.
Now imagine all the different perspectives of the millions of listeners in the world.
My advice: focus on the whole song, and create the sort of thing that really moves you. Any one element--like the lyric--has the power to distract, even derail your focus on creating The Whole.
If one element was more important than all the others, we'd just be listening to bass lines and reading poems.
Create the whole beast.
|
|
|
We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.
|
|
Forums117
Topics125,783
Posts1,161,559
Members21,470
|
Most Online37,523 Jan 25th, 2020
|
|
"Sometimes, the best thing you can say, isn't the easiest thing" -Brian Austin Whitney
|
|
|
|