JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Toby Keith Talks About Gay Marrige/DADT

Repost from Huffington Post Online Edition

when I saw this story online I really thought"okay here we go he is gonna say its the end of the world and America will be consumed by the fires of Hell for this-etc etc"......But I was pleasantly surprised-no shocked actually-to see him speak out in favor of gay marrige rights and THE END OF DADT...I have a new respect for Toby Keth I must admit..

He has always been known for his battles with Music Row and refusing to be controlled by them-but I think his coming out so publicly in favor of gay rights and the end of DADT in the middle of this particular town and and the country music industry makes him a real hero....

One of my best friends was gay...He was a member of one of the leading families of Virginia-one that routinely produced top lawyers /judges and even a Virginia Supreme Court Justice.....

He was pretty much shunned by his family as "the crazy one"....Even though he was a graduate of VMI and Washington and Lee University in Lexington Virginia....He was also a decorated veteran of WWII-rising to the rank of Major....He definitely showed alot of courage under fire during the war-but he showed even more when he got back home to Harrisonburg,Virginia and was openly gay in a town and culture that was not at all gay friendly back then.....He died of cancer at 60 and his funeral reception was the strangest mix of people ever seen in that town in one room at one time....But we were all civil to each other.......

Of course we have all had gay friends.....He was a man of great courage and personal integrity-too much to lie or give a dam about the bullies of straight society.....

So I want to salute Toby Keith for his personal courage in coming out for gay marrige rights and in support of the end of DADT.....Yes I know he is still no fan of Barack Obamna-and believe it or not I am not always happy with him myself-but I really do have a new respect for Toby Keith to be this out front Before its a popular opinion to have in this town or this business........

here is a link to the article

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/01/toby-keith-weighs-in-on-g_n_990404.html

Tom

Tom, I'm glad to see that you can overcome and see past Toby Keith's conservative ideological image and realize that he's really a nice guy.

There may be some hope for you yet. Ben

theres hope for me huh? wooo doggies

then there must be hope for everybody

Tom

Thanks for Sharing, BroWriter Tom!

Yeah, I've long-respected Toby as a Writer, Now I respect him a LOT as a fellow human being.

My now-deceased Gay Uncle, Richard C.Good was instrumental at de-segregating the Birmingham YMCA back in the '60's. Married, fathered 2 daughters.. Alcoholism..& being-away from the West Palm Beach Y he usually-headed & his family, wrecked his marriage. He was in-process of reconciling..when killed by a car crossing a street in Miami.

I've never seen a More Mixed-Bag of Funeral Visitors than at Dick's Funeral...from Backstreet Winos...to Major-League Politicos...& for a whole day there, there wasn't any hint of Sexual Politics in the shared grief.

My Gay son's just moved to Chicago with his partner of 7 years..after living in Atlanta all that time. They liked Atlanta..but moved..fearing if their car ever broke down OUTSIDE Atlanta..they might not make it back.

Thanks Toby...hope ya make some Difference, Man!

Thanks Tommy...& I know Some Things Take Time!

Best Wishes & a Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

hope they are happy in Chicago Bro Stan

great city but too dam cold for me

you are a great father for wishing your son and his partner every happiness you would want for any other couple.......

best of luck to you in all things musical and otherwise.....

hope you are selling lots of those grandfather clocks...

Tom

Toby Keith's been on record for a long time being a democrat and those folks are seldom of the conservative bent.

On the gay agenda, I think it's a choice, a sin in the eyes of God, but we all sin, though sexual sin is different, and I hate to see it be as accepted as it is becoming. There are a lot of internal struggles in making those statements because people have the same knee jerk reactions they often accuse me of having. They don't realize where I've been, what I've done, and how much thought I've put into it.

Well,
I believe in live and let live. Now if someone would record some of my songs I could live a whole lot better! I like money and so does my wife, I think. On the other hand she can spend it like it's going out of style so maybe she don't like it so much!

Being gay is not a lifestyle as much as some would like to think. It was said that Rock Hudson, who was gay tried going straight but in the end couldn't. I say live and let live. None of us is perfect.

Hi Sausage

I had thought Toby was a Republican but I was wrong-he is a former Democrat who registered as an Independent in 2008..In a a web article he said he was leaving the Democratio party cause the nuts were taking it over and it no longer represented represented his political views.....

In the same article he praised Sarah Palin as being normal and representing mainstream America.

So I was definitely wrong about his political affiliation prior to the 2008 election...Whatever-I still think its great he supports gay marrige and the end of DADT.....I am going back to find that link about him switching affiliation in 2008......brb...
Tom

here is a repost of the article in CMT NEWS about Toby Keith leaving the Democratic Party and going Independent and praising Sarah Palin etc......So as I said I was wrong about his party affiliation prior to 2008......

http://www.cmt.com/news/country-music/1596198/toby-keith-registering-as-independent-voter.jhtml


Tom

Morning, Tom:

We agree on lots of topics... but not this one. I cringe when I think of the living hell our military forces will endure because of the repeal of DADT. As one of the other respondents said, being homosexual is a matter of choice. It does fly in the face with the reason man and woman were created... and homosexuality does nothing to propogate the species.

In my mind, the homosexual movement is a greater threat to the nation than al Queda. Where will all of this anti-reasoning end? Will the Horse Fornicators Movement be the next group expecting special treatment? The San Francisco based G&L people are not content with calling illicit union "Marriage." They want textbooks to laud them for their specialness.

We will suffer greatly as a nation for this brazen flaunting of immoral license. I do not plan to become a pillar of salt.

well Dave-as you say-we disagree and you certainly have the right to disagree about gays in the military......I disagree that gays in America are a greater threat than AL-QUEDA........

there were gays in the military back when I was in the Marines in the early 70s.....they were highly patriotic freedom loving hardworking soldiers/sailors whatever.....

they were usually well known to their superiors/commanders/fellow troops and we just didnt discuss it much at the time........live and let live as long as they did their job.....which they did...now and then the Navy NIS or Army CID or whatever would run investigations and trap them-charge them/discharge them.....course they didnt get em all-many died on the battlefields of Vietnam at the time

I dont think anyone is going to turn to salt no matter what their views on this issue.......I guess according to your beliefs a gay soldier who is a gate guard at a base in Afghanistan will go to Hell after being killed by a suicide bomber from AL-QUEDA or the Taliban........that'll teach em.....

rock on my friend

Tom

I can never understand why some folks think it is their place, or duty, to try to control someone else's life. It is very well known that 1 in 10 humans are homosexual or at the least bisexual. I would think the Bi's are more choice but the Homosexual is something that cannot be changed.
Can it be controlled by the Homosexual person? Probably. But with great personal sacrifice. That sacrifice should be by choice.

JPF is supposed to have 50,000 plus members. That's about 5,000 gay members. We have folks right here posting on these boards who are gay. What should the "moral policemen" do about it. Maybe they should rethink their association and leave here before gayness rubs off on them.

I have at least two Gay relatives that I know of, A couple I am not sure about. But I have about 40 first cousins and I don't even know how many second cousins, so it is my guess there may be more. Do I care? No. Not a damn bit.

It ain't none of my damn business.

I don't get the DADT crap either. I was in the Military and I can tell you with certainty there were gay soldiers in our unit. Did it make a difference. NONE, NADA. and that was back in the 60's when people were more homophobic, by far, than they are now.

I can't understand the moral outrage of some folks. I am sure some of these same folks have had more than one sexual partner in their own life. If I remember right it's a sin. Is it less of a sin to Fornicate or commit Adultery? I don't recall there being "Degrees" of sin. It either is or is not.

As far as a "God" goes. If there is one I really doubt he cares but someone decided to write down their own beliefs in a book at some point in time so now it must be true.
If I remember right there is a commandment against adultery. It doesn't specify man with woman. If it mattered I would think something so important would be more specific.

If two people enter into a personal relationship where they share their life together it is a partnership. A life partnership. They share the pain and joys of every day life the same as "Straight" couples. They struggle with work, paying bills and mortgages, illnesses, death. I wonder how many of the three thousand killed on Sept, 11 were gay. If stats are correct it would be about three hundred.

I see no reason they should not have the same "rights" as anyone else.

So you go Toby Keith.

There is growing scientific evidence that being gay is NOT a choice...it is inherently biological.

Also, I have personally seen a number of gay relationships go on for decades...while the hetero relationships fall by the wayside. Which relationship is better??

So I prefer to be tolerant and let God judge. And if you believe in God, and believe that it is against God's law, why would you take the right of judgement away from God?? Because no matter how you argue, man is fallible and our judgment and interpretation of God's will is also fallible.

Finally, hatred and intolerance IS a choice.

Wow. I think that this type of thread always seems to go the same way. Those for and against state their reasoning and their case. Never the twain shall meet.

There seems to be a lot of people throwing Gods name around as if they knew Him personally. I guess it matters who your definition of God is. But if you don't believe in Him then don't quote Him or throw His name around. I wouldn't dare throw your name around without knowing you.

I can tell you that "my" bible (emphasis mine) does say that homosexuality is a sin. So is lying. So is putting other gods before Him, etc. They are all the same in my Gods eyes. Sin.

Before you jump on me let me finish. I would not treat someone I knew was homosexual any different than I did someone who I caught in a lie. Or any different than one who was caught in bi-sexual adultery. It's all sin according to "my" bible. Am I a sinner. Yes in deed. That's why I'm not throwing stones or worrying about turning to stone or anything else. It's by the "grace" of God that I'm here at all. But I must say, that if I believe in "my" God, and if I believe in "my" bible, then that's what will drive my decision making and the way I carry myself around others. I do not have the right to condemn anyone. I'll let "my" God worry about that.

But I wonder, if homosexuality is not a choice, and is somehow inherited, then why don't we leave alcoholics alone and not bother with wanting them to get treatment. If it's something they inherit, somehow genetics or whatever, what's the difference in the way we treat them and anyone else with a genetic issue they can't control??

I condemn now one. There will be no one answering to me on judgement day. That's above my pay grade. I'm told in "my" bible to respect and love others. That's what I will try to do. No matter what.

Steve

Dammit,
And I forgot to put my Halo on this morning. Oh, Well. I think Toby Keith should have just kept his mouth shut.

Ray did you think that I think I'm wearing a halo based on my response?

This is one of the more civil threads I've seen on this subject. kudos to all involved.

I can't reconcile all the "what's right" with the "what's not right." When we mix God in there, it gets even more complicated but for me, God is the filter for what goes in and out of my mind so I can't just leave Him out of it.

It saddens me that homosexuals who love another can't always get married. Seems like they should be able to. I've surely seen enough heterosexuals get married that I knew would wreak havoc late on.

At the same time, we need to remember one small couple is sometimes all we can see from our perspective. If it's someone we care about it's even more true. Over the horizon though are thousands and beyond that are millions of people in the same group. To accomodate all of them would change the course of world history. That can bring a lot of problems.

40-50 years ago there was (IMO) a righteous Civil Rights movement to make those of African descent equal to caucasians. How many people are happy with how it turned out? Has it been beneficial to all, has it become one sided, has either side taken advantage of the other since it was done? We face this same situation with the way society looks at homosexuals. I think it's different from the Civil Rights movement, most of you may think it's different from the Civil Rights movement, but the homosexual agenda is often defended and promoted as being like the Civil Rights movement by its supporters.

There are no doubt people in this group who defend a person's right to take recreational illegal drugs. Over in Mexico though they are cutting off peoples heads, slicing their faces from their skulls, and Arizona has become the kidnapping capital of the world. There is a connection.

Most of my fighting days are over, I offer comments I think are pertinent but I don't defend them like I used to.

This is no longer just a moral issue, it has become a political battleground. That's how it will affect most of us from here on out.

I didn't know he had switched to independent. I was surprised when I learned he was a democrat 'cause I was sure he was a republican.

Hey Tom:

I think you may have misinterpreted my post. Homosexuals have served in the military for years. They were just not encouraged to discuss or openly practice it. My objection was the repeal of DADT. Why you ask? Discipline! It's as simple as that. Whose word will be taken after an "incident" in the barracks? Will both parties be punished in order to be politically correct?
This will lead to all sorts of discipline problems.

My reference to the "al Queda" greater threat by the G&L community lies strictly with the master minds of this massive PR effort by the folks in San Francisco and their partnership with the liberal media. They will create whatever statistics or ploy to tear the fabric of decency... no matter the consequences or impact upon society. I suspect the 10% number mentioned by Bill is a pure fabrication by that same group. Just a few years ago, the number was reportedly 5% and that had no real basis of proof. When did the census bureau begin collecting such data?

As to homosexual marriage... just don't call it marriage. Marriage is a privilege between a man and a woman. It's what distinguishes humans from the rest of the animals. Civil Union sounds like a better description for what homosexuals want.

The statement about scientific evidence... "that it is inherently biological" has no proven foundation. It is just another ploy by the G&L tacticians to curry favor with the masses.

Hey, if a person wants to be homosexual, it's their business but I'd rather not know about it. To me, it is wrong... but none of my business unless "forced upon me" as a new minority group or political faction through a campaign of lies.

well Dave old Buddy I just dont think that to make any person spend their whole life lying is good for them or others they are involved with.....

would you want to marry a lesbian who lied to you about being attracted to men while seeing girlfriends on the side?

I personally think tatoos are hideous-but if someone wants to get covered head to toe in them-it aint my business-its their body....

as for the conspiracy between gays and the liberal media to brainwash America into submission of the gay and lesbian agenda-yes it does indeed exist and those black helicopters hovering over your house at night are not spraying for mosquitoes
buddy-so you better protect yourself with a tinfoil hat lest you find yourself running away to become a groupie for the Village People....

gays and lesbians want marrige-not civil unions obviously.....cool-good for them....I dont care if they get married...they are in love....and if they have tatoos I still dont care.........and if they are in the military even better-cause they will need the love and suport even more to handle long seperations......so we shall see if the ground opens up and the heavens fall within a year from now when miltary chapels have held marrige ceromonies for hundreds or thousands of gay military couples with tatoos...I am betting it wont make a dam bit of difference in my life or yours...

wishing you and your wife a happy anniversary-I am sure she is the best thing that ever happened to you....

Tom

Thanks, Tom:

I wondered about those black helicopters. It's wonderful that we live in a country where we can actually have an honest and frank discussion about subjects like this. Sorry if I pushed one of your "hot" buttons. No rancor intended... just an ordinary citizen expressing an honest opinion. Thanks for the anniversary wish. Fifty-one is a good number.

Dave

I'd like to inject a little Humor right about now:

We all know Many-a-Nickname for Gay folks...but did you know theirs for Heterosexuals?

"Breeders"...according to my son.

Thankee Folks, & Good Night,
Stan

Doh! Snap!!
Good one Stan

51 years together-wow

I consider it a silver anniversary if I have the same girlfriend for for 2 weeks...

congratulations....no offense taken about our discussion of this topic..after all-no one is trying to keep us and those we love apart..

keep rockin my friend

Tom

Do I dare get involved here after my post of a week or so ago.

If people don't believe in God or the bible,then I guess it doesn't matter what other people do. But I happen to be a Christian and I believe in God and the bible, which is our guide for righteous living. I believe my God is a fair God. He doesn't say in His word that those born blind, deaf or crippled will go to hell, but He does say unrepentant effeminates, murders,etc. will not inhertite the kingdom of heaven. So it sound to me that it is a sin that they choose to do,but they don't HAVE to do it. We all have a sin nature capable of committing the worst of crimes and sin, but most of us resist doing so,thank God. We all sin and come short of the glory of God, we are born in sin, we live in a sinful world and tempted to sin every day. But sin can not enter Heaven, that is why God sent His Son Jesus into the world as a sacrifice for our sin. He died and took our sins on Him upon the cross of Calvary, so that we,beliving in Him, have our sins paid for. If some don't believe this, and many don't, then they are still in their sin and will have to pay for their own sin in Hell.

I personally don't know any homosexuals, I would not treat them any differently than an adulterer or a drunk,except maybe to point out what they were doing is wrong. Abortion is wrong too, over fifty million children aborted in the US since it became acceptable to do so,but that is an all new topic of sin. The US and Canada,plus Europe have turned away from our Christian roots and have become self worshippers, worshippers of money, even worshippers of sports and music idols. We have become so rich that we feel we don't need God any more. But that is being taken away from us, soon we will face much more troubles, mainly because we trust in self and the god of this world, Satan.

Canada, and especially the US were based on believing in God, and God has blessed us over the past few hundred years because of it. But we have started to slide away of the God that keeps us strong,because we no longer honour Him. It happened to the Jews several thousand years ago when they turned away from God. England also turned away from God and lost their position as the most powerful Empire, the US will go the same way, not over night, but it will happen.

Aw Gheesh,
I can't believe this. Or maybe I can. I once had a Bapist Preaher come to my house. Actually a Southern Bapist. Among other things he told me, he told me he didn't interpert the Bible. Aw So, say Charlie Chan? It didn't dawn on me at the time, as I had already covered religion forwards and backwards, but I should have broached the subject. One place in the bible it says we are all sinners and have fallen short of the Glory of God. In another place it says Judge not that you ye shall be judged. Now my Baptist Precher fine feathered friend, you have to come down on one side of that argument or the other. So, like it or not you do interpert the bible. And it appears, for all practical purposes, Organized Religion has decided we are all sinners and need converting! See what you learn when you come here! Now would you ever get this in a church? The Bible has many facts in it. Some choose to ignore the facts so the facts come back once in a while to help them.

Mornin Ray, bye they way you never answered my question to you earlier. I can understand folks talking about judging. We usually do do that and are wrong. But you have to realize (not agree with but realize) that if the bible we believe to be true says something is a sin then it's not "us" judging, it's what we believe to be Gods word. It's the don't shoot the messenger thing. If you want to go off on God (as I said earlier, the one we believe is true) then that's your prerogative. Yes we have all fallen short of the glory of God. All of us. My "organized religion" says we all have a choice. No one is forced to do anything or believe any way. And I'm a Southern Baptist by choice, not birth. Usually what we do is let our personal "feelings" about issues cloud what the issues really are. That's why I prefaced my previous comment with the fact that this issue is not gonna be resolved on any forum or whatever. Those who think it's ok to be gay are gonna continue to thing that and that's fine. Those that don't aren't gonna change their mind either. In the end Ray, it's all about loving each other as we are. That IS my responsibility. So I'm gonna love all those who are in either camp. I'm not gonna take pot shots at your camp or any other. As said previously by another poster, this has actually been one of the more civil discussions about this. Thanks for your views Ray.

Steve

What people do with their private parts is their private business.

For the record some of us who do not believe in God or the bible still have morals and values...in fact it could be claimed that these morals are purer because they are not steeped in myth or are a bi product of a bygone age where rules and morals based on ignorance and hidden agendas were forced onto naive people who blindly accepted them.

I also say live and let live...but....homosexuality and other forms of sexual deviance are not normal or wholesome....they should not be made legal or morally acceptable.

That said if gays do not bother me then I will not bother them. Who cares if two poofs get married. Just as long as they do not make it compulsory to be a homosexual.

It's a lot less likely that they would force homesexuality on you, than it would be for you (or others) to force heterosexuality on them.

Also, as to it being a "choice":
Would YOU choose to live a lifestyle that sets you up for potential harassment, mockery, and shunning by not only those who love you, but by the majority of society at large?
It's not a choice. It's who they are.

And, re: treating homosexuality like alcoholism -- alcoholism is a disease. Homosexuality just who somebody is.

Trying to treat homosexuality would be like trying to treat somebody for being black. It's foolish and wrong.

Todd I am a product of the 50s when homosexuality carried a huge stigma and was also a crime. Many folk were sent to prison if caught.......how times have changed....now it is us who could be sent to prison for saying anything discriminatory or offensive about gays.
I know a lot of people who are gay....and I adopt the live and let live attitude....that said I wonder why some or even most of them make such a big thing about it and go out of their way to draw attention or accentuate their gayness and exaggerate the fashions and traits associated with such people.

Se,
My comments are directed at no one in particular. P.S. The Jury is still out on Organised Religion. But, you don't have to ask me. There are at least 78 different "Denominations" here in Brunswick alone. Need I say more?

SE, you should realise that people the same as you and me, wrote every word in the Bible. So, and this may be hard to get, if we are all sinners and have fallen short of the Glory of God, what makes you think anyone who wrote things down knew anything? If we know "nothing", they also knew "nothing". So the Bible has a fatal flaw in it. Kinda like Achelles Heel. And this is supposed to be a Music Board! SE good luck in your studies.

Throughout history, Man's survival's always required a "them-vs-us" mentality. Same for religions: Without "The Sinners" there'd be no need for "The Faithful".

Traditional Christianity's in Big-Trouble when the first Confirmed Space-Visitor makes Page One of our Media. The Chances of THEIR Morality..(& Genitalia) Mirroring Our-Own are probably pretty-remote...while their Technology for-sure'll outstrip our own.

&..heh..THEY'll become our New Generation of "Sinners" almost overnight. (Even tho the Pope's seemingly Already Blessed 'Em.)

But..we're ALL God's Chillun'..methinks.

Best Wishes, Big Hugs,
Stan

I remember now. Was it Flip Wilson that said, THE DEVIL MADE ME DO IT. Without the Devil, who needs Religion anyway!

The "liberal media" that Dave mentions is a favorite bugaboo of the right wing. Who owns the media? If it was the left wing, there would be mainstream media coverage of the "Occupy" movement that is going on right now. As it is, the protests in New York went on for 10 days before NBC even mentioned them. Bus 25 Tea-Partiers to an "event", and the media is all over it. Get gassed by police for standing on a sidewalk, and go to jail with hundreds of other peaceful protesters, and it may go viral on the internet, but the people who own the media will pretend it
didn't happen.
"Liberal media", my (expletive deleted)!

oh well Toby Keith will no doubt gain some fans and lose some fans depending on who cares at all about this issue.....but of course most wont care at all...I wonder if the clerk would cite her religious beliefs in refusing to issue a permit for a Toby Keith concert.. the lesbian couple own a farm together in New York State.....be funny if Van Halen offered to do a free concert at their farm just to freak out the clerk......thems some good God fearing heterosexuals....lol......

Tom

Maybe the Liberal Media isn't covering the event because no one seems to know what they are there for. I must have seen 15 different interviews asking the protestors what they were protesting and they gave 15 different answers. One person said he was protesting against Wall Street getting Bailouts? Bailouts? Who gave them the bailout? He's protesting the wrong guy.
They didn't have a clue. Most of them seemed to be there for the party, LOL.

If they want to protest something why not go to the shipyards and protest against the Billions of tons of merchandise being imported from China. Protest our Congress who is allowing it to happen. Protest the Billions of Barrels of oil being imported from the middle east while permits to drill here are being denied by this and past administrations.

Here's a good place to start. Reading the article it mentions our exports. Like, Clay, Coal, Chickens, Grain, etc. No manufactured goods. The imports? Clothes, socks, I-pods, etc. every day items we all use.

Why bother covering a meaningless protest.

Not sure what that has to do with gay marriage, but right on Bill! Raise tariffs, not taxes.

Kurt, I'm afraid that you made your own point (or answered your own question). Why does the media cover Tea Party rallies and not the protesters? Here's my take. The protesters are mostly left-wingers right? The Tea-Partiers are mostly right-wingers right? Doesn't it make better sense for the liberal media to portray the (right-wing) Tea Party as nutty zealots than to let the public see the left-wing protesters, who happen to be the current administration's voting base display themselves as they really are? God forbid NBC let's us see the real left in this country.

So Ray, if the bible I believe in is simply a "fabrication" of mans thoughts then so is any scientific evidence to support gays not having a choice in who they are. So we're all fabricated by our particular desires whatever they may be. Scientific cases can be made to show anything they want to show. We're all predisposed by the things that have influenced our lives. Personally, my belief is that this book is not simply a fabrication of ideas of men. Why would men trying to appease their own feelings invent a book that, if you follow it completely would result in your death or at minimum extreme persecution. That make absolutely no sense. And if I'm going to say that this book is simply "created" by sinners for their own benefit, then I wouldn't quote it to support my cause. If I'm gonna "make up" a book I'll make up one where God is all warm and fuzzy and we all get to get along. That would make sense using your logic. And yes this is a music board so I'll not say anything else that doesn't directly apply to music in this thread.
Steve


As I said, this issue won't be resolved on a thread anywhere. But the conversation is good.

SE,
You seem to be confusing things. There is no fiction in the Bible. People, sinners just like you and me, according to Organised Religion, and musings in the Bible, wrote everything that is in there. Now, another point for you to ponder. The Bible was never written to be used as it is being used today. And it was put together back when, not written at the same time, and the people doing the writing at one time weren't always aware of other writings. Now, if God knows everything, and we all of mankind, know nothing, how did anyone get anything right?
The fatal flaw.

Now, it says in the Bible, that we are all sinners and have fallen short of the Glory of God. If that is so, how did we or they ever get anything right? It is the eternal enigma.

I didn't say the Bible was a fabracation of anyone. Everyone wrote what he thought was the truth. And, according to the Bible we are all sinners, except for that fatal flaw.

I have been thru this for the last 59 years. I didn't just start yesterday.

I said I wasn't going to say anything unmusical but I guess I have to. There is no "eternal enigma". According to the bible, yes it was written by common sinful men. But it was written at the direction of the Holy Spirit. You either believe that God had the power to be able to get what He wanted down on paper or you don't. I personally believe He was capable of doing that, even with our fatal flaws. It's really not about us Ray, in the end it is about Him and what He wants. Not us.

Sorry folks for getting way off base I apologize. I'll keep to my previous commitment.

Steve

Getting back to the original subject and it's place in modern times. The Bible, The English translation commonly used in religion today, was written over several hundred years. It was mostly written in Greek and Hebrew. The translations have always been questioned. If I am not mistaken the term Homosexual had not even been coined at that time. I also don't think the original Greek and Hebrew text even addressed homosexuality except for when and where it was practiced. I could be wrong but that's what I remember.
So using today's Bible as a guide for sexual morals is, IMHO, flawed. But if folks want to use it that way to lead their own lives I see nothing wrong with that. As long as they don't try to force it on other folks.

I think I'll just let folks believe what they want.

It was said of Caesar "He was every woman's man, & every man's woman"...

Try framing THAT in Modern Context...eh?

Best Wishes again,
Stan

Man shall not lie with a man as he would with a woman is a quote from the bible, sounds like a homosexual act to me. It is an abomination against the Lord so says the bible.

The bible also says the day will come when good will be evil and evil will be good. Sounds like what is happening today, if we say homosexual acts are evil, we become evil for saying it. We are getting to a point where we don't know right from wrong or lies from truth.If it feels good, do it.

obviously homosexuals agree with heterosexuals that love feels good so they wanna "do it" i.e. get married...

Tom

Well Tom,
Aren't you proud of yourself! Yiou have really stirred up the old pot! Now if two people, who happen to be of the same sex want to have a good loving relationship I fail to see how it is harming me. I don't care and don't want to even know about it. Be my guest.

For me it's always been the lovely lasses. Ask my wife, of nearly 48 years. Damm she knows I look now and then. Actually I have to beat them off with a stick! All you guys know what I mean!

Humm. It's not about us but what God wants? Now, SE, do you know we are all part of God? Did anyone ever cover that fact? It is also in the Bible, but maybe a bit obscured in the uh, Scriptures. And SE, it says something like, we are made in the image of God? Well, more things to ponder. Not to mention that the word changed hands a few times before it got to you. How many errors creeped in over that span? And, what do you do when you hear something that seems wrong. Just accept it or question it? Usually when that happens people start their own church. Think I'm kidding? Joseph Smith didn't agree with any of the churches, and started the Morman Church. No fatal flaw? No Enigma? You're kidding right?

As Kurt Vonnegut so eloquently put it......

“I tell you, we are on earth to fart around and don’t let anybody tell you different”

Man shall not lie with man....but not woman shall not lie with woman...since we apparently MUST take the Bible literally, being a lesbian is just fine...as is stoning people for their transgressions..as is having multiple wives...as is taking out your own eye...

I mean no disrespect here. I'm just pointing out that not everything the Bible says is right or applicable to modern society.

I'm a simple guy. I believe in God, I'm just not sure about the complicated stories that surround God. So I can accept and in fact respect Judaism and all its divisions, Christianity and all its divisions, and Islam and all its divisions.

I also respect every followers views, so I respect their beliefs about homosexuality, as long as they do not harm those who live that way.

Every believer wants to live a spiritual life and all are on their own journeys to our one shared God. Myself, I try to adhere to the 10 Commandments and Aristotle's Golden Mean as much as possible.

I have read the Bible, the Koran, all sorts of history, philosophy, science fiction (a wonderful genre to explore themes) and more, and in my simple mind, and upon lots of reflection, I've cut away a lot of clutter to get to where I am spiritually.

So I would never argue that the Bible or Koran were not handed to us as the word of God, just that it is read and interpreted by fallible humans.

This is why I believe that if you really believe in God, and you really are a Christian, I cannot see why you could not or would not "love your fellow man as you love yourself", Jesus' golden rule, and leave the judgement of "sinners" up to God.

I am an atheist......I could never be a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew even if I did believe in God. I respect women, freedom of speech and pacifism too much. Sadly those religions have a poor track record when it comes to those moral issues plus many more.