JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum If you don't write country, why write songs?

Jim,

Of all the idiotic things you have said over the years, that is one of them. Not at all. It is speaking plainly to your audience. There are also subtle double meanings in it also it and it is much harder to write simple instead of a bunch of poetic nonsense that means nothing to anyone, the writer included. This elitst mentality you have is really quite tiresome. You know nothing of which you speak, pay no attention to reality and spout off nonsense at every opportunity.

So yes Jim, I guess country would fit you well. Although I doubt you would get it. It is a bit more that you probably could understand. Wouldn't hurt you to try to learn about it might help you make some sense of your own writing.

MAB

ALL

IN MY WHOLE LIFE I'VE NEVER HEARD SO MUCH DISAGREEMENT, WITH PEOPLE WANTING TO AGREE--I'M HERE IN NASHVILLE FOR A LONG TIME NOW (1960)--WRITE ANYTHING YOU WANT--IF IT DOESN'T FIT WHAT BIZ IS LOOKIN' FOR--FILE IT UNDER PERSONAL SONGS--AND WRITE SOMETHING ELSE--1 OUT OF 1000 MAKE ENOUGH MONEY TO NOT NEED A SECOND JOB--SO YOU ALWAYS ASK YOURSELF--"WOULD I BUY THAT"--NO MATTER WHAT GENRE MUSIC YOU'RE IN--AN AWFUL LOT OF ROCKERS WIND UP IN NASHVILLE PLAYING FOR FREE TOO--WAITIN' FOR A BREAK--SOME WAIT 10 YEARS--FOR SOME IT NEVER COMES--SO I SAY--"WRITE ON SONG WRITERS WRITE ON"--IF ONLY TO SATISFY YOU--PEOPLE IN THE BACK ROW, LISTEN UP--IF THEY TURN THE BUILDING AROUND--YOU'LL BE ON THE FRONT ROW--THINGS CHANGE....AND CHANGE...AND.......

ISN'T IT WONDERFUL TO BE ALL TANGLED UP TOGETHER IN MUSIC-------

Mackie

Marc what day was it when I posted....?

LOL sense of humour deserted you?

The best country songs are parables, an art form in itself. American art seems to be largely based around the allegorical, from Walt Whitman, through John Huston, to Bob Dylan and Quentin Tarantino.

Rock music is mostly about sex, pop music about infatuation.

The best lyrics you find today are probably in hip-hop.

Rock 'poetry' is, as Marc says, largely nonsense - but then rock lyrics are about vocal expression, not common sense.

Dan

Dan I think your generalisations are all wrong. Probably the worst lyrics of today are Hip Hop. They mostly are guys mouthing off as fast as they can to the point of most of it being totally uncomprehensible. They promote violence, gang culture, drugs, crime, disrespect of women and any authority not to mention the constant use of the N word. Saying this word would get a white guy into a lot of trouble but black guys use it all the time with impunity......can never get my head around that. I also cannot get my head around the fact that despite all the money some of these guys make they still look like pimps at a facy dress party or someone who has dresssed in the dark and put on the wrong size of clothes from the kids dressing up box. Yeah you can take the guy out of the hood but you cannot take the hood out of the guy.

Rock music vocals cover a wide range of subjects and saying they are poetic nonsense perhaps shows a lack of understanding of the clever word plays and hidden meanings behind a lot of the lyrics.
"Country music lyrics contain clever word plays" well I will take your word for it.

Getting back to basics Blues was traditionally simple music and lyrics written by poor uneducated people usually the products of slavery who vented their anger at the rotten life they had been given......Country music is little different. It comes from poor uneducated folk who wrote about their lifestyle and surroundings. So by their very nature these genres tend to have simple down to earth lyrics and melodies. Nothing to be ashamed about.....but they by their very nature will remain simple lyrics written for simple folk.
Rock music however is historically a product of well educated well trained musicians and people traditionally from college and university backgrounds so the lyrics and musication tends to be from a higher intellectual plain requiring a more refined ear and imagination. Things are not spelled out to the degree of other less simple genres. The language used tends to be more sophisticated and the subject matter is less down to earth with lots of hidden meanings and clever word plays.
The genres and style of the music people are associated with is very much down to geographic location and the level of education received by the individual.

Pop music is pretty unsophisticated and is clearly aimed at impressionable teenagers who will blindly follow the latest fad or cool trend...just to discard it a week later when it is considered uncool.
All that said any true lover of music should be able to appreciate good music and performances REGARDLESS OF ITS STYLE ERA OR GENRE.
Todays music is a HUGE melting pot where many styles crossover so generalising is pointless and usually inaccurate.
Even todays Country draws inspiration from pop, blues and rock.
So all bets are off regarding generalisation.
Now just to have another dig at Marc....in a light hearted way of course....If writing country songs is SO DIFFICULT then how come so many people manage to achieve it. It seems that everbody and their Grannies dog in Nashville write country lyrics AND everyone outside Nashville wants to have a go as well despite the fact that the subject matter has been done to death and is pretty much exhausted. LOL

Guess you got Marc going there Big Jim.

Maybe 'April Fools' day is different in the USA

God Bless Roy and Helen

Thanks Roy....at last someone with a sense of humour....I would have thought that anyone reading my post despite it being April 1st would have taken it as light hearted humour in any case......maybe SIMPLE country folk cannot accept or appreciate the sophistication of jokes unless it is spelled out with LOL after it to reinforce the point and tell them when to laugh.
Maybe they are far too busy getting divorced, painting the porch with its obligatory swing and tending to their four hundred kids and the cop in the field to have a laugh.

Anyone who sells a lot of music deals in generalisations - a few great artists may buck this trend, but that is why they are great!

Yawn. IF you listen to the Airwaves today, what's "Country" IS Pop & Rock: Tim McGraw's "Felt Good on My Lips" is a Mantra-Like 60's POP Song..pure-&-simple (JMO, anyways...& I, as a writer, remain Totally-Revulsed at any Honcho's attempt to "Pigeonhole" ANY Genre.) Taylor Swift's "Mine" has the term "flight risk" in it..ever heard THAT line in a "Country" Number before?/the "Yeah-Yeah"s hark back to The Beatles.

The Pat Benetar Yarn only serves to remind us that even "Insiders" have a Hard Time getting a Good Song CUT. (And that it takes years of perseverance and yeah, LUCK, to get ANY song in ANY Genre Up-There with the Big Boys.)

So..keep a-writing Whatever You Like...(& buy a few Powerball Tickets every week, too...might have even-better Odds!)

JMO, again, but the MORE Genres you CAN Write In..the Better Your Odds. Nashville prefers "Country"...(What a Surprise?)..but L.A...New York..Branson..& even Miami..(& Abroad)..are all "Targets-of-Opportunity" for Your Wares.

Good Luck/Best Wishes/Big Hugs,
Stan

Yes, Jim,you did get me. Good for you.

It hit me at the wrong time and I reacted badly. We are in the middle of Tin Pan South here and we have thousands of people here that come in for the shows, which last all week. I have continued appointments and try to follow along with everyone as I can. Many of the JPF and other members of the other forums I do decend on this town.

The day before I had been in several heated discussions with some of them. Two happened to be from England. One of them, a very talented keyboard player, picked back up on a discussion we had started last year on the subject matter and lyrics of country.

He really was that same opinion and was going on again about it. Then he came up with a weird statement that what he hated about country was the cheating and drinking songs of Tammy Wynette and George jones,which actualy pretty much dissapeared 20 years ago. THEN he says he LOVES Rascal Flatts. he said he loves the melodies and THAT kind of country he could get into.

THAT IS WHAT COUNTRY IS NOW.

Then I really poured it on twenty minutes later when I had a round put together with Danny Wells, the writer of several Rascal Flatts hits, like "These Days." He spent the rest of the night apologizing to me and actually starting to listen to what he has been complaining about.

So yes, your comments did hit me the wrong way, and it was one of my "To Hell with it" moments.

So April Fools. You got me. It was also my 23rd anniversery of moving to Nashville. So I missed that one. Sorry for my reaction. But a LOT of people from outside here have real reactions just like that.

The problem comes is when they come HERE to find some way to resurect their careers since it played out everywhere else. We get a little tired of people from all over coming here and tell us what we are doing wrong and how backwards we are. We get it all the time.So yes, some of our tempers can be on edge sometimes.

Actually what we have had in the past few years are every rocker coming to town. The parade is endless, from Peter Frampton, Kid Rock, Sherryl Crowe, Jon Bon Jovi, Jon Waite, Neil Diamond, Paul McCartney, Elton John, Darius Rucker, Barry Gibb (bought and then burned down Johnny Cash's house), actors like Gwenneth Paltrow, it never ends. They all are coming HERE. And they don't leave. They buy houses and LOVE the community.

And of course when Robert Plant is here fairly regularly and winning a Grammy with Alison Krause,it harkens back to the days of that great Bluegrass combo "The Led Zepplin Kentucky Bluegrass boys" sure we always remember that one.

So yeah, I got a little bent. Sorry about that. Glad to read your later posts.

Have a good day after getting me.

MAB

No prob.....Marc you should get out more LOL...YES Nashville is the mecca for a lot of stars....and most music nowadays draws inspiration from other artists and other genres......I am pretty eclectic in my tastes but am not a big fan of the modern whiny nasally female singers and the overuse of autotune we hear in most pop music nowadays. I also am not a fan of the older style crying in a bucket country songs as mentioned by the keyboard player in your post. Some of the more modern songs I like but they tend to be more rock than country. All that said I can appreciate ANY good music performed well.

Jim,

I don't know you but you have a right to what you "opinion" of hip hop is but I think you really need to go back and re-examine all the generalities that you have laid out.
I am not a big hip hop fan, and yes it is true that some Artist do some of the things that you have posted but not all of them.

Your generalities should not go unchallenged.
You have a right to whatever opinion you have, but you are doing yourself a great disservice here by posting such an ill informed post.-Respectfully-Dana

MAB, I liked your first response when you gave the devil to Big Jim. Gotta stand up for what you believe and the hometown team. I see nothing wrong with that. Even on April Fools Day.

I do not doubt what you say.......there is always an exception to any rule but enough hip hop folk do exactly what I claim they do to more than prove my generalisation. I would be interested to hear some of the exceptions you claim there are to prove me wrong. My view is not unique.. many people just do not get hip hop and a lot dislike it intensely for the very reasons I have stated. I fall into both camps. I cannot see what the mass appeal and attraction is for hip hop especially from people outside this relatively small culture. I know of MIDDLE CLASS people who deliberately put on a ghetto accent and adopt this street culture just to look cool..... GEEZZ how purile is that.

Here is a weird one, I actually am on Big Jim's team on this. But probably for a different reason.

I am first and formost a singer. The extension of melodic notes, being able to turn a phrase in some form of tune is what makes what I do unique in how I do it. At least that is what I try to do.

With most rap and hip hop I have heard (and I will be the first to tell you that I don't listen to much, so I do plead ignorance on that, however I work with a LOT of people who have done a lot of it, some even to have multi platinum records on their walls who come to me to get farther away from that world. The neighborhood in many ways gets a little rough for their tastes.)The stacatto bursts that are required to keep in a rythmn don't allow for the holding out of notes. And a lot of the subject matter is not something I care for.

Many of the tracks are very similar with the same sound effects on a lot of records. But I choose to keep most of my thoughts to myself on it, because, who cares about what I think on a format I don't even know? I do speak of my hometown because I do know that. A complaint that I do have is that many people who speak against it do not know it. That is what bothers me.

For the record Jim, we tend to be more on the same pages than away from it. And like you I too dislike much of the older whiny stuff. I don't like depressing subject matter so none of that appeals to me in any form of music. I also don't care for a lot of minor chords, which tend to denote negativity.

There is a good reason a lot of the country music coming out now sounds like older rock. There is usually a ten-12 year learning curve from when we first start paying attention to music from age around 12-14, we pick up an instrument, and then develop our own versions of music. At first we simply parrot the songs we hear on our radios or those of older friends or siblings. As we develop our own styles around ages of 20-25 and start writing our own, we absorb that into our own styles.

Music is more about ADAPTATION than actual CHANGE.Just like the Beatles took the SKIFFLE beats to the next level, much of what we do now,takes the previous generation and adds to it.

In the 90's, a lot of rock turned to grunge, alternative, and hip hop/rap. So many rock artists, turned to country. A large majority of the producers, musicians, writers, publishers, song pluggers in Nashville now, came from LA and New York in the 70's-90's. They were involved on rock hits, of that era and then migrated to Nashville, first on a part time basis, then on a more full time basis. Many of them, finding the real estate and cost of living 1/3rd of where they are, including the raising of families a bit safer, less traffic congestion, closer community.

So you have heard a gradual easing of more pop or rock sounding songs. Also the average listener is more sophisticated now, (EVEN FOR COUNTRY JIM) so our writing, production and approach have adapted as well.

That is why I react at times a bit strongly when people talk about Nashville. Most all of you hear a VERY SMALL part of what there is here. And also some of all of your favorite writers that many of you quote on pages like these, ALL end up coming here.

Enough on Nashville 101 today. Hope you are all doing well.

MAB

Marc take a tablet......most of that made sense....LOL

So what you are saying is that Nashville is SLOW TO ADAPT AND is 10-15 years behind the times....I can buy that...... LOL

Seriously though music must have light and shade, hot and cold, happy and sad....it must be balanced. I like some of the sad minor chords they add depth and feeling. Nothing wrong with a bit of melancholy every noe and then. I also like the strong happy majors that bring warmth and a feeling of well being. There is a time and a place for both happy and sad just as in life.
Play a sad song and watch all the couples hugging and carressing each other on the dance floor......think about what is going to happen later on when they get home...... Well if you only play happy songs you would be personally be responsible for the demise of the human race due to lack of procreation. No point in just playing happy songs if there is no humans left to listen to them.
Anyways I'm off for a cold shower. All this excitememnt is bad for me at my age.

I'm not here to change Jim's opinion about what hip hop is, I hope most here know enough about hip hop to know what it isn't.-Dana

Anyone interested in knowing what hip hop is can do a simple search on it and read up on it. Here is a link below

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop_music

I know enough about hip hop to know what I like and what I dislike about it. I stand by my original statements. Now please show me where I am wrong...so far you have claimed I do not know what I am talking about.....I saw nothing in the article to disprove any of what I originally said......but hey you are the expert....you tell me what is so wrong in what I said. There are some elements I quite like and some folk are pretty clever poets DJs and studio techs but most of it is pretty naff and certainly unoriginal. Where would it be without ripping off huge samples from proper music?
I grew up on blues and soul music from the sixties plus ska and reggae...I love it all but hip hop is a downward spiral.

"One of my arguments for those who think country is just "the best" is why do they cover so many rock/pop songs? I know the reason is mostly because as people get older they generally veer towards country and they get to hear the songs they used to love in a different genre." -Ricky Layne

Great point Ricky. = )

If you're not writing German Death Metal in the original German language and maximum aggression, then why bother writing songs? = )

Rap music is an art for just as legit as rock or country. And like those two, there's an equal ratio of crap and brilliance. We find similar levels across all genres really. To claim any genre is all crap or even all 1 thing only reveals deep ignorance of the genre as a whole. Surface opinion means little, especially when you simply don't like or respect the music to start with. Rap is about FAR more than lame Gangsta Rap as well, it's sort of like saying all country is Achy Breaky Heart or Cheatin' Songs.

Brian

I would have been proud to have written Achy Breaky Heart. It was actually a perfect little dance tune when it was released by Billy Ray (even if it was written about 10 years earlier!).