10 members (rpirone, bennash, Fdemetrio, Deej56, VNORTH2, Bill Draper, Guy E. Trepanier, 3 invisible),
998
guests, and
318
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.
By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,639
Top 100 Poster
|
OP
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,639 |
My 17 year old son Derek ask if I would buy him a music program to create beds for his rap songs. Any recommendation? His friends are recommending "Fruti-loops" It seems lame to me - way too techno, but then I don't write rap. I don't know enough about those sample programs to make an intelligent choice. Budget? I guess I would be willing to spend $100 or so unless the program is awesome and I can use it to write pop and country. He's pretty good. Here is a song he put on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0o2WgnMuIo
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 772
Top 500 Poster
|
Top 500 Poster
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 772 |
Fruityloops hasn't been called that for about 8 years now It's now called FL Studio, and it's actually an extremely powerful program... I make a full-time living from music (not rap music) using only FL. In fact, I wrote the demo song for the latest version. It's a great program for rap/hip-hop though mainly because of its fast, drum-centric workflow.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
Top 20 Poster
|
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463 |
Joe FL is pretty good....another program worth considering perhaps more geared to rap and hip hop is Reason. http://www.propellerheads.se/products/reason/It is perhaps a tad more expensive than FL but will double up as an all round music production studio for your use as well.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,585 Likes: 13
Top 10 Poster
|
Top 10 Poster
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,585 Likes: 13 |
Hey Andrew,
Pretty cool that you did the demo for that. Maybe we should do and article on the best of these programs and get the manufacturers to give some copies away to members in a drawing or contest?
It's been yeara since we did a Membership Drive.. but we used to have a lor of fun with those.
Brian
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@gmail.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney "It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..." -Brian Austin Whitney "Sometimes all you have to do to inspire humans to greatness is to give them a reason and opportunity to do something great." -Brian Austin Whitney
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,827
Top 50 Poster
|
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,827 |
Hey Joe, Yep, FL Studio does seem to be the most preferred programme by hip hop artists, I guess because it's beat driven. I have it, but prefer Acid Pro, http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/acidsoftware but they're all essentially the same. Just a matter of which interface you prefer and how you prefer your workload. Get your son to check out www.futureproducers.com , they should be able to answer all the details in regards to producing rap numbers. cheers, niteshift
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,704
Top 100 Poster
|
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,704 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 157
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 157 |
If you happen to have a Mac, the included (free) Garage Band is quite decent for loop-based recording. Or recording in general, for that matter. One could go pretty far with nothing more than a Mini.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 514
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 514 |
I can recommend Fruityloops or FLStudio, it's easy to use and beat based with an awful lot of features, it can host a whole load of VSTi's, it is a brilliant program much maligned by professionals.
It is primarily used by techno and rap/dance people but you can actually make any kind of music on it, downside is, it is quite technical but there isn't a program that isn't. If you have ever programmed a drum machine then this is a program which you can program just like a drum machine but with any kind of sound. It is quite mechanical sounding which is not a problem for rap. It is also half the price of Cubase or Logic or any of the other more professional programs.
It is the only program which can be used with-out a midi keyboard for it's input device, you input with the mouse. Less cost as a midi keyboard controller can be anything from £60 to £1,000's. You can make music with it as soon as it is installed, it is really quite simple in that respect and it does not need a super powerful sound card to run it ... I have had over 20 instruments playing at the same time with no latency problems.
I did both "From a lush garden" and "Keep movin' on" with Joice Marie using Fruityloops to make the backing if you want to have a listen and check out what is possible with it.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
Top 20 Poster
|
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463 |
I just want to correct Puddlegum's statement about FL being the only program that can be used without a Midi keyboard.....there are lots of music production programs that will work and make music without a MIDI keyboard just using the PC keyboard and edit facilities.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 691
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 691 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 514
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 514 |
Hi Big Jim, there are a few standalone synths and other programs but all the main ones that I have come across need the midi-keyboard, it is possible to use Reason with-out a midi keyboard but it is a really slow and convoluted process, I use Sibelius with out a midi keyboard but you can't do hip-hop on it, and some of the minor programs can be used but they usually just involve using preset loops which are provided and just strung together with ease which requires no real talent or understanding of music.
I am always on the look out for new programs or ways of doing things, I don't suppose you would care to name a few so that I can check them out, I do have a midi keyboard but I very rarely use it.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,827
Top 50 Poster
|
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,827 |
....but they usually just involve using preset loops which are provided and just strung together with ease which requires no real talent or understanding of music.
Hey Puddleglum,
I'd have to beg to differ here. Sure, if you don't understand musical construction, then you're going to get something resembling Groudhog Day ( except much faster )
If used properly, cut and spliced, they're a great sounding, well recorded production tool, which almost every commercial musician uses. And why not ? Great sound, and a much reduced studio bill.
cheers, niteshift
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
Top 20 Poster
|
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463 |
Hi Puddlegum I have many many programs and VST plugins......but they are hugely expensive and usually require a good understanding of music production, construction and music theory plus a decent midi keyboard to get the full benefits. I cannot understand how anyone can work without a keyboard. Even DJs nowadays use MIDI to compliment their stolen samples. The best way of recommending a better way of doing things is to go to a pro studio and see how these guys make music.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 514
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 514 |
Hi Niteshift, at Uni we get shot for using present sounds and no-one would be allowed to use somebody else's loops, we have to write our own, make our own and if we don't we would fail. Using preset loops, even if you cut and splice them, shows a certain lack of creativity, it's easy and a cop out, you can't claim to have written the song if it consists mainly of loops and samples created by someone else ... which is not important in the professional pop world, as long as it sounds good and makes money, who cares eh.
But I think we digress from what program the guy should buy his son to make hip-hop with ... and I don't have the time to sit and argue all day since I went back.
I will however agree that it is far cheaper than hiring a drummer and bassist or spending hours and hours writing your own (like I do) so I can understand why people do it, I just think that music as a whole suffers from their use, and they are mainly used for dance/hip-hop and those kind of genres rather than rock or country or any of the other "real" music. And yes I know all about rock groups using triggers to play samples of big meaty kick drums and solid snare hits, but isn't this a little bit of a cheat and it draws people into an illusion that drums sound like that when in actual fact they don't, leading people to disappointment when they see their favourite group live and they don't sound anything like the record.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
Top 20 Poster
|
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463 |
Every studio I know uses sample sounds.....it is a bit like using a pedal on a guitar.....you play the notes.... but what comes out is a completely different instrument or sound. A loop is a collection of samples and sounds pre done. This should not be confused with taking samples from a record...that IMO is iffy and lacks creativity. No university should shoot anyone for using legit tools that are readily available.....BUT they are perfrctly correct in taking someone to task for cheating by copying someone else. But perhaps we split hairs.....in reality every time we hit a note on a modern synth or keyboard we are stealing a sample produced by someone else. As I said before maybe if you go into a modern pro studio you will see how things are done. It is a case of time and money. It is cheaper and easier and arguably a better performance to use VST. This saving allows for more creativity and better quality recordings...... no bad thing.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 157
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 157 |
I know all about rock groups using triggers to play samples of big meaty kick drums and solid snare hits, but isn't this a little bit of a cheat and it draws people into an illusion that drums sound like that when in actual fact they don't, leading people to disappointment when they see their favourite group live and they don't sound anything like the record.
Chances are pretty good that drummer will also be triggering samples if you go see him play live. Those drums you see him (or her) bashing aren't necessarily what you'll be hearing.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
Top 20 Poster
|
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463 |
Puddlegum has a lot to learn.....Few pop stars ever sing or perform live even though they claim to.....most lip sync or sing to a prerecorded backing track. The same applies to rap, R&B and hip hop stars. Most rock bands can never produce live what you hear on a recording. Some bands are still well worth seeing live though as this performance shows the raw talent and the musicianship which cannot be hidden or faked in a live environment.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 514
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 514 |
Hi Big Jim, your probably right there, I haven't been to a pop concert since I was young, and maybe your seeing the wrong bands as I don't think I've ever seen or heard any "live" band mime or lip synch. The last bands I saw definitely did not, they were Porcupine Tree and Ozric Tentacles, not very famous I know but very talented people producing epic rock music, both have been around for at least 10 years and have as many albums available.
I'm not much into pop music now-a-days and I do know all that goes on which is one of the reasons I'm not into the "professional" thing, this is exactly the kind of thing they get up to. I would much rather listen to honest amateurs, warts and all, than cheat with autotune.
And lots of rock groups can replicate what is done in the studio, Pink Floyd, Tangerine Dream, The Who, all brilliant in concert, but they do have millions to spend making sure they can. Old rock bands can and did, I don't have much interest in the modern ones they are just not up to scratch, too much reliance of clever production in the studio's. And triggers are used for the drums live as that is reasonably easy to set up.
Every preset sound on synths and software are used by studio's but we are encouraged to set the envelopes ourselves and not use the preset, which can be done on most synths, just twiddle the knobs and see what happens to the sound. I suppose it is the difference between an artist who mixes his own colours and a painter who just uses the colour from the tin. The professional studio is just a painter who adds colour, where as the artist will usually write and produce his own music independently. I bet Brian Eno doesn't use presets, neither did Kraftwerk or Tangerine Dream or Jean Micheal Jarre, etc etc. They probably wrote most of the sounds we hear today.
I don't think there is anything wrong with singing to a backing track, karaoke style, as long as they don't use autotune or pretend they are playing when they are not. If they have produced the backing track themselves, nothing wrong with that at all, I've done half a dozen gigs like that myself.
So Big Jim, I'll start going to gigs again when the artist learns to actually sing live and can produce their recorded works to a reasonable standard. I'm pretty sure bands and artists, live Amy McDonald and some of the other more folky rock bands, can. They aim to replicate in the studio what they do in concert and usually quite successfully because they will not allow the studio to over-produce their sound, and I think that was my complaint about a lot of pop music is that it is over-produced and it has to be because it is not of a very good quality to begin with, so over-production is necessary.
Afore I go ... writing music on a computer without using a keyboard is an art in it's self, but no different to writing notation, it is easier now as you can play back and hear what it sounds like immediately, step sequencing is no different than programming an old style drum machine.
It is really no different than editing the midi track produced by a keyboard, except that it is already quantised, and there are ways of programming swing and late/early hits should you really want them, in fact very little is impossible and a computer can 'perform' things that would be impossible to play by humans, either too fast or slow or just "in time".
Anyway, I hope the guy gets his son something for him to make music on with or without a keyboard.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 157
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 157 |
Puddleglum, I write on a computer sans keyboard as well. It comes natural to me to write in notation, actually -- I find PG Music's Power Tracks program to be a good match for me there.
Btw, when I mentioned live drummers I did not meant they were using pre-recorded tracks (not necessarily, anyway) but that a lot of rock drummers have triggers on their drum sets to play samples along with or in place of the natural drum sound.
Just as that wall of guitar amps behind the band are likely to be phony and they're actually playing through some digital processor going into the PA system.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
Top 20 Poster
|
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463 |
Puddlegum I sing live to backing tracks and also with my band when a decent properly paid gig comes along.....sadly in this age of cutbacks few venues can pay the money for a live band so I have to earn a crust any way I can. I would never dream of singing live with Autotune or lip sync. I have no time for any artist who does.....there is no excuse ever for such a thing other than not being able to sing in the first place. In the last few years music production tools have come on in leaps and bounds.....studios can produce the accurate sound of every instrument known by use of synth MIDI and VST. Few people can afford session musicians and pay for the time it would take to record their parts. It is easier and cheaper to do it the modern way...does not make the finished result any worse or less artistically demanding. I doubt if many of the modern pop stars could perform live with a band to any kind of decent standard. Most proper bands and musicians can produce a pretty good version of what was recorded in the studio....bearing in mind that they used some tricks and techniques perhaps played many different parts or multi tracked to create the studuo version. I have heard Yes live and they could not produce anything like the studio sound but they came close.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 514
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 514 |
Hi Stephen, there's a lot to be said for open mic nights as these are the only "real" untainted music to be had. Can't beat one man and a guitar. A lot of it boils down to money, the cheapest option often being the only one available to both amateur and semi-pro bands, and if cheating sounds good then it's easy to understand why drummers use triggers, they still have to play in time so triggers are only half a cheat, and we can't turn back time on technology. I am always amazed at how good 1950's rock n roll was, most of it recorded live with one microphone and they still sound great, a quality lacking with a lot of modern pop even with all that expensive technology.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,827
Top 50 Poster
|
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,827 |
.....and if cheating sounds good then it's easy to understand why drummers use triggers,.... Hey Puddleglum, Of course pro dummers use triggers, and have been doing so for the last 20 yrs or more. It's not cheating, it's actually doing the session properly by providing a MIDI track with the recorded drum track. It's good to see you're been taught the basics of sound creation, manipulation and punch programming, but there really is no need to reinvent the wheel. I couldn't imagine sitting there in front of an old Atari computer again, going through note for note. It's much more fun to be using that time creatively, and leave the robotic programming to the annals of history. Besides, you're just "cheating" all round, making synthetic tones that have never been heard in nature. Back to rain drops in puddles, and banging rocks and sticks together for me ! cheers, niteshift
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
Top 20 Poster
|
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463 |
I agree.......there is nothing tainted about bands using every tool available to improve a live or recorded performance. Whether it is a midi pad or a skin the drummer still has to hit it at the correct time. Re electric versus acoustic...well that is just down to taste. One thing for sure the guys I play with are just as comfortable either way. They certainly do not cheat. I suggest that Puddlegum visits a studio and sees for himself just what can and is being done NOWADAYS. He might change his opinion.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 514
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 514 |
Hi Niteshift, all that hip-hop and dance stuff is just robotic programming, it's hardly in the annuls of history, we make music anyway we can. The point about triggers is that the sound that makes it onto the record is not the sound the kick drum made, it doesn't really reflect the real sound of the drums, which I think is a shame, because when played well, live drums do sound good, listen to anything before 1983 and the drums are real.
And certainly I cheat all round by using synthasized sound, but I'm an electronic artist who likes to work by himself, so it's practical, step programming can be just as creative as playing, you still have to know what your doing, and anything that makes a sound can be used for music, that includes a computer. Using midi tracks allows for automation and all the clever stuff that you can do with it, I don't use it that often it depends on what I'm doing.
Musical instruments all make sounds that are not heard in Nature, instruments are man-made and usually produce clear tones of specific frequencies consistently (when in tune) so that we can make music with them, most of natures sounds are both atonal and inconsistent.
And speaking of raindrops and banging sticks and stones together, that is exactly what we are doing in a slightly more human and sophisticated way, the fact that a drummer can whack a stretched out pigskin with a stick and (with the help of a computer) make it sound like a stomping elephant shouldn't distract from the fact that really he is just hitting the skin with a stick and that the sound is not really representative of the action. That is the "cheat".
Using synthasized sounds is not cheating unless you are pretending that it is a real live instrument, it is still a matter of melody, a good melody will sound good played on any instrument, that is just a matter of notes and their intervals and the rhythm with which they are played. A synthasizer is a real instrument, both in hardware and in software, it produces synthetic sounds, it is no less valid than guitars, piano's, drums or vocals for making music. I think things have moved on a little bit since the days of the atari, I've only had a computer for about 6 years, but essentially it will be the same, it's what comes out of the speakers that matters in the end.
I suppose I don't like that "big" drum sound that seems prevalent in most pop music, it just seems very fake.
So have you ever tried substituting your drum samples with animal noises, that would be fun!! Try it and see how fake it sounds.
It seems that everyone agrees that analogue recording give a better sound, they seem warmer, so why don't professionals use analogue any more when everyone seems to agree that it is better. Just a matter of money I think, studio's used to spend weeks recording drums where-as now the drummer doesn't even need to be in time, as it can be quantised later, why not just program it in the first place using the same samples as the trigger. End result just the same.
And of coarse drummers need triggers or some kind of extra volume because most guitarists insist on playing as loud as possible and drowning out everyone else. Now, that is a thought, why not turn the guitarist down so that the drummers don't need the boost, then we get to hear what the music really sounds like.
My biggest cheat is that I write all my songs on a guitar and then transpose and arrange them using the computer instead of recording just guitar and vocals which would be 100% honest of me, which means I can be creative twice!!
Well, I'll see you later.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 514
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 514 |
Hi Big Jim, I know some of the things they do in professional studio's, that's partly the reason I hold some of my opinions.
I don't know them all but I do know there are enough good singer's around that wouldn't need auto-tune so why are studio's recording singers who do!! The music industry keeps trying to make stars out of people based on how they look rather than who can actually sing. If they started judging singers by how well they sing, there would be an awful lot of plain looking people making hit records and auto-tune would go out of business.
See my response to niteshift for the trigger thing.
I only think the sound is a cheat, not the musicians, like you say they still have to play the correct notes and in time, guitarists manipulate their sound all the time with fx and no-one, even me, thinks that is a cheat. And I am well aware that if you play a lead solo on an nylon strung acoustic guitar it is generally quite pathetic, strip away the effects to bare music and they are lacking, it is the effect of applying fx that generate the emotion or intensity. I just worry that people don't actually know what real instruments sound like, drums in particular due to the studio production process. Everything is bigged up and sounds great but it seems to have an hollowness, that lots of people recognise as not real or not natural. I think it's a matter of perception and what criteria you use to analyse and judge music. Overproduction is cheating the consumer because it often makes second rate songs sound great, strip away the technology and you are left with something weak and dull.
I don't think this reliance on technology is serving music well, musicians should use technology, I use it myself (big fan of it) but not to the detriment of music. Music that doesn't sound good when played on one acoustic instrument, ie Piano or guitar, with or without vocals, isn't good, if the technology is used to make it sound good, then someone is being cheated. If it does sound good then far less technology needs to be used to enhance it and it will sound more natural.
Most musicians just use what they have and using fx is not cheating, but studio's use all sorts of "cheats" or tricks to "improve" the sound and I have to concede that whether it is an improvement or not is a matter of opinion or taste. As long as people pay their money the studio's will overproduce until it goes out of fashion, just like it did in the late 1980's when people got fed up with midi and returned to a more organic rock sound.
Well, nice to chat, see you later.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
Top 20 Poster
|
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463 |
Puddlegum you are a kindred spirit....I too hate the popstars and hype...most of them have very little talent.....I am famous on this forum for constantly hammering them and the people who suppoort them. I am in a pro studio almost every week plus I have my own little studio with pretty good pro gear by anybody's standard. I hear what you say about acoustic music but do not agree 100%....I have worked with some top musicians and they can play acoustic with the best......when it comes to electric and FX etc etc they do not cheat they just show off their talent even more. It all boils down to taste and upbringing....I came from a rock/blues background and started performing in the mid sixties....so I grew up with a loud big sound...lots of FX and pedals etc. IMO this requires even more skills...the ability to play well live and the ability to work the machinery at the same time. Yes most pop music is about production and most pop sucks.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 514
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 514 |
Hi Big Jim, I do appriciate the skill of using technology and the talent of those who play any kind of music, I do admire people who work studio's and record and mix stuff, either traditionally or using the latest stuff.
Professionals are very lucky that they get paid for something that most people do for love, they need to appreciate that not everyone has their amount of knowledge or the resources to ensure brilliant sound, I asked my tutor how much for a soundbank of the best classical samples and he said "£50,000" - I told him I'd get it next week!! A top studio may be able to invest it that but I'll just have to keep using the soundbank in Sibelius which cost £400, and yes it probably shows.
To get back on track with the original post of which program to buy for his son, on a budget of $100, I would have to say Fruityloops is the only viable one and if he does ok on that then maybe move on to Cubase or Logic later. The amount of knowledge needed to make Cubase/Logic work is beyond most people who are not familiar with the technology already, it is an awful lot to learn if you don't know someone who can show you how to do things and I have to presume that because he is asking for advice that he or his son is not to familiar with music software.
Fight the good fight!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 514
Serious Contributor
|
Serious Contributor
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 514 |
Hi Samuel Joe, I'm sorry if we hi-jacked your question but Fruityloops is good for the beginner, and possibly the only one in your price range, if you buy it for him and he needs some help let me know and I'll do what I can.
See you
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,639
Top 100 Poster
|
OP
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,639 |
Puddleglum, I posted the question but didn't stick around for the answer. I got busy at work for a couple of weeks and then forgot I had posted it. I do appreciate the responses. I will probably load SL studio on my son's computer and let him play around with it. Then I will probably pick his brain for anything useful I can to with it.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
|
|
|
We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.
|
|
Forums117
Topics125,824
Posts1,161,940
Members21,470
|
Most Online37,523 Jan 25th, 2020
|
|
"Never accept no as an answer from someone not empowered to say yes in the first place." –Brian Austin Whitney
|
|
|
|