JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Industry Message Forum What is music worth?

People are so use to having music at their finger tip that they take it for granted and that cheapens it. Almost like the saying, you never miss the water till the well runs dry, well I'd like to see a period of time, maybe a month, when music was banned. No person or industry was allowed to play music for any reason for this period, just to draw the worlds attention to how important music is.

Just imagine a church service with no music, movies and TV and radio with no music, no music in advertisements, no music to lull babies to sleep. How many ways does music be used in the run of a day to get our attention, to get us to buy something, to raise money for charity, to get us into a club, etc. Still people take it for granted, like the air they breathe, they think it should be free to be used as they see fit. As we know, producing good music takes talent, skill, work and money. If music is good enough to steal, then someone should be willing to pay a fair price for it. What is a fair price? Who knows, people pay one price for a newspaper or magazine which is soon in the garbage, they pay another price for a book which they read once and file away in a bookcase. People pay a price for a video of a movie which they may watch a few times. Based on those items, a CD, which may get listened to hundreds of times, is the bargain of the century, yet million don't want to pay $15.00 or $20.00 for something that can entertain them for a lifetime. I rest my case.

Everett: I think there was $10 billion in revenue from just music sales last year ( http://www.internetretailer.com/int...it-534-billion-2012-study-forecasts.html ), so obviously someone is paying for music. This doesn't all include all the revenue from radio play, movies, TV, etc, etc.... and then revenue from concerts, festivals, bars and dives, ....

Your beginning premise seems wrong, but it is a fact that music is a commodity -- with so much supply, the cost stays low -- and free is pretty low.

Kevin

HiDee Bro Everett!

Take away Music & some LANGUAGES cease to exist...(I think Vietnamese & Thai "Primers" come with Musical Scales Attached..they're "Sung" Languages from the Get-Go.)

Historically, most Music WAS "Free"..until the Townsfolk tipped the Street Musicians..& the Kings Hired-Ya-On.

Enter the Music Publishing Biz..Mangers..Promoters..Big AD Budgets..Tours..& yep, FINALLY there's a way for Non-King-Supported Musical Careers to Happen.

Sadly, we can't ALL be Elvis.

&..if ya examine The Career of the Most-Successful "Musician" of all time..sales-wise..it still didn't turn out All That Wonderfully for him..personally.

HOWEVER..I'd wager MOST of those Billion Records he sold were $1 apiece. &..That's close to the Average Download Price, nowadaze.

So...I'll volunteer That Sum in answer to Your Very Valid Question.

Now..the "Trick" in making a Career outta Music is to reduce your "loss leader" (free) Performances..in relation to your actually Selling Something.

Is your Music so POWERFUL folks "Gotta Have It"..so MOVING (Like Elvis Was) it makes Young Bystanders SCREAM with Delight...(& will actually BUY SOME)? Or is is Vanilla..White Bread..Bland..Boring..Negative..Off-Key..Amateurish..Less-Than-What's-ALREADY-Out-There?

I don't think MOST music "entertains for a lifetime". (How many of your teenhood Vinyl 45's have ya played lately? I rest my case.) Very FEW even Successful "3-Minute-Movies" get played Year-After-Year...Original HIT Music's got a Short Shelf-Life.
(I'll prove it..NAME the Top Dance Hit for 1989..WITHOUT Googling it up.) (I can't either.) But SOMEONE Made a Pile of Money from it...still does..thanks to Laws & Publishing & Promoting that's mostly been put-in-place the last 100 years.

Anyways..SOMEONE will STILL make the Million off the next batch of Serious HITS..(Just look at Kevin's Stats.) Sadly, NOWADAYS it's rarely the WRITERS and THE ARTIST who does. &..JMO..with so many "Layers" these days of Lawyers & PROS & Promoters that Wanna "Help Us"..it sure seems like maybe LESS of that Moneygrubbin' "Help" is needed.

Back to makin' my $1 Downloads..heh! (That $11 Check from CDBaby felt GOOD last week..just 999,989 MORE Downloads & I can Prove My Point there...heh!)

Big Guy-Hug,
Ol' Stan

<www.CDBaby.com/TampaStan>

Supply and demand. And what funds the market will provide.

In any business.

Everett,

In the 40's, there was a two year general music strike against the record companies. Once the record companies ran out of stockpiled songs, no new songs went out to radio except for vocals only cuts. When the strike ended, the sales of records in the U.S. doubled.

Only nowdays, the musicians won't organize, and most do not like the union, so it will never happen again.

Guys,

There is a piece of the equation you are all forgetting.
The "Everyone can do it" element.

Karaoke.
Home recording
Local and home grown musicians.
American Idol
Nashville Star
Song and talent contest.

When this started happening in the 90's,it became affordable, accessable, immideate. Now what is the rage?

Guitar hero
Rock Star

When everyone can do it, the unique nature ceases. How many of you would stop doing music and only buy other music?

I rest my case.

MAB

So, here's what I'm seeing: on the one hand there are a lot of people who download my music and never pay me a dime (bummer), but on the other hand, there's a growing number of rabid fans who pay me $30 (or more) for an album that isn't even out yet. Some of the latter came to me because one of the former handed my music to them... that's just killer!

I think the value is shifting from the music itself (back) to the musicians. People nowadays are eager to support bands or individuals that they truly care about (just look at the success of Jonathan Coulton, Scott Andrew and others) and less so about whatever is dished out by the record industry.

Obviously a great time to be a musician, not so much if you're just the writer. Of course, there is no reason why you can't be both (except the excuses you make to convince yourself you can't).

I don't think this is true. Karaoke, Guitar Hero and Songsmith all do two things. On the one hand, they make musicianship accessible and enjoyable for the layman, but on the other hand they help bring appreciation to the skill that goes into being a 'proper' musician to those same people. Someone who's beat Guitar Hero understand how difficult it is to pull off an amazing guitar solo, because (s)he knows how difficult it is to pull of the game version of it... etc.



Not me, not ever.

I agree with Jim. What happened to the music industry, the majors at least, is they fought the tidal wave of "internet culture" by clinging to a twenty dollar CD stubbornly, and now begrudgingly are playing catch up with changing consumer needs.

One could look at the internet as a new, hyperfast "grass roots folk movement" and get in the thick of it, become part of the flow of information, reach people around the world that was never possible before--TOUCH listeners with a "personalism" that was not possible except to those in front rows of live shows.

So do many high profile musicians...Radiohead...the Nine Inch Nails dude.... Here's an essay by Janis Ian who found the more music she gave away for free, the more her sales went up:

http://www.audioenz.co.nz/2005/janisian.shtml


...the idea goes back before the time of Christ, and is now part of the ideas in many cultures...Hopi "Gift Culture"... in cult books like "the Secret", that to have a "giving" nature" is what attracts others to "give" back...

In Acts, chapter 20, verse 35: It is more blessed to give than to receive.

IMO, most people that steal were never going to buy that piece of music anyway; it has to do with "character", and I don't think the Internet has turned many good people into bad, simply because the "candy box" was open...

--Mike

I guess. I am probably just wrong. There really isn't any loss of income in the music business. All those "out of business, for sale, for lease, signs are just people who decided to do something else.

The Nine Inch Nails guy was shocked when they had 2 million in downloads and was paid for 29 thousand. Yeah, no problem. Less development budgets for acts, artists rosters cut. Yeah, sorry, I just made it up.

MAB

Marc,

I didn't mean, nor anywhere did I say there was no loss of income in the record business, but that the internet is here, and it's not going to go away any time soon. The best strategy might be to use it for what it's good for, instead of trying to erect a "virtual police state" that file sharers would just find a way around anyway, and that the "spirit of giving" does help make an artist new fans.

There are many reasons for the downward trend in music sales. It's a complex problem in need of a more complex way of dealing with it...

--Mike

the problem with stats like that is they "assume" that those two million are "lost sales" when you know and I know that's ridiculous...

Trent Reznor probably lost several thousand sales to "marginal fans"...and then probably GAINED back a few thousand sales by making NEW fans--by offering his album for free on the internet in a lower bandwidth--this is not to mention "cross sales" on other albums that one gets when garnering new fans...

I'd lay a bet with you that Reznor's sales on his previous couple of albums (that were "normally" merchandised) were at around or under the 100,000 unit mark, anyways...

I'm not trying to suggest there aren't "greedy takers" out there taking greedily--just that most likely these people were NEVER going to shovel out a ton of money on CDs or Itunes anyway, nor most likely did they ever...JMO...

--Mike

No,

The best way to deal with it is to fold up the tents and quit expecting to make a dime from music. That way you are never dissapointed. And it will come to everybody else's business soon enough.

M

Hi again Marc,

I can see from the tone of your writing that this subject is very personal to you and that you have strong feelings about it, and that it's affected you and your friends, and that you speak from experience. I apologize if there is anything I have said that has upset you...

I lived and worked in Nashville between '93 and '97, and worked for the now defunct record chain "Tower Records" for twenty or so years. Tower insiders in hindsight wish they would have gone the route of "Amazon" a lot sooner, for their mail order department never quite caught on...and so my livelihood too, had been affected somewhat by the changing face of the record industry.

But what do we do? Do we believe that our fans/potential fans are, at root, "thieves", and then live a paranoid, pessimistic existence, and look at them with anger? ...when that would surely rot our souls... how long would we keep such fans?

....Or hate the Internet, when there's so much good that it offers? ...look at us!! We're using this very medium to share our thoughts across time and space...a little ironic, I think...

Sure, change is painful, but please allow for the possibility--JUST...the possibility that something good will come of all this...from this "changing face" of the music industry...self-production, for one, is now a reality.....so much great music that I would NEVER ever have heard, and PURCHASED, without the Internet and self-production....

Best wishes,
Mike

Mike,

It is a tough subject, especially when trying to teach people "reality" in a world of dreams. I believe that we keep going, but level expectations to a point that is workable. You don't expect to make millions in the music industry. You learn other skills and utilize those until or if music should take a turn toward making up a percentage of your income or life experience.
In fact, I try to completely demphasize the financial aspect of the industry to anyone I deal with. The Internet is there. It is the million pound bear in the woods. You can't pretend it is not, and can't avoid it. But you can acknowledge the damage it has wrought and can make plans to work within it.
Your example of Amazon is correct. But there will come a time when that is rendered extinct as well. My point is people have come to expect music for free, period. And that is not going away. In the infancy of this medium, people used it to use it to promote their live shows. until people stopped going to live shows, which has been the trend in the past couple of years.
My entire point, entire thread, entire perspective of all of this, is to demphasize cuts, money, fame, etc. and concentrate on the craft of writing great songs, learning about the marketing and try not to get too caught up in issues you have no control over.
It is a sore spot with me. Watching an industry all but end, is not a pleasent experience ever. But we can all elevate the community we have. That is my whole effort.

MAB

Marc,

With those last paragraphs, I now have a good understanding of where you are coming from, and it's a place that makes a lot of sense, and does appear to be rooted in reality as you say.

An interesting question to pose as a thread starter might be, "if somehow you could see your own future, and you knew for a FACT you would never EVER make one (more) penny at music, would music play the same part in your life that it does now? less? more?

Answering these kind of questions, early on, might keep someone from feeling that kind of "disillusionment" of which you speak...

Personally, I've tried escaping from music several times in my life, for various reasons, but it always finds me...

All the best, Marc,

Mike

So, the question is "What is music worth ? "

Just like any other commodity, it's only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

Like it, or lump it, that is todays reality. There's great indie music coming out which uses a different business model to that which has been used before. I'd liken it to the mass printing of sheet music around the turn of the previous ( 19th ) century. The music industry survived, just in a different format. It will continue to survive in the digitial age, though with a yet to be determined model.

Those that lament the "old days" I think, are refusing to turn their head towards the freight train, which is currently about 2 feet in front of them. Jump out of the way, or stand defiantly put ? Hmmmm.... not a hard choice.

cheers, niteshift

If you want to think about it, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

In the 50's,60's and up to the 70's, music was built around 45 records. They were small vinyl records, with a large hole, that needed an adapter to keep it from wobbling.They had two songs on it, one on the "A" side, one on the "B" side.

Artists, had to take their music directly to radio stations, driving from place to place, trying to get DJ's to add their record. In most cases, paying the DJ to get it started. A great deal of them were given away for free as promotion. There were even hundreds and sometimes thousands of copies with printing on
the record saying "Promotional copy only, not for sale."

Even a great selling record was around 40,000-50,000 copies, resulting in the artist/writer, making $10,000-$50,000 in a year/two year time frame.

In the 80's, videos hit the airwaves, first with rock, then with country, that used were to advertise the artist and bring people to his/her live shows and events. These were not paid for in the performance royalties. Total free advertising.

Nowadays, artists and writers are pitching their single songs,
called downloads,which are today's 45's, They usually have at least one or two songs on web sites offered at one time.

The Internet are comprised of millions individuals, of "DJ's"
who program their own play lists, I-Pods, personal "radio stations".

Artists are having to give away a good deal of their prouduct as a form of advertisement, much in the way of videos on You Tube
My Space, Face Book, which advertise the artist's live shows, and bring awareness to the artist's career.

Many artists and writers are making much less money. Sometimes less than $50,000 on songs that do not chart highly. and in the case of someone who has had a writing deal for some time, much of that might be eaten up in advances paid by publishing companies. So having a substansial medium size hit, and making not much more than $10,000 is a very real possibility.

The more things change.

MAB

What is music worth?
It is worth playing.

Hey Marc,

Yep, I think you pretty much nailed it. The similarities are strikingly similar. Just hard work and a prayer. The guy who has a "very good" song ( or a few )and figures out the angles, and chases down the leads, and does it consistenly, will start to make headway over someone who writes "excellent" songs, yet lets them rot on a website non-one is ever going to find.

I used to think ( maybe 5 yrs ago )fractination of the market was a good thing, it provided diversity and a greater carve up of the pie. Not so now, everyone just gets crumbs due to the overwhelming amount of material produced. Sure, you've got to dig hard to find the gems, but they're certainly there, and for the most part, free. Airplay and mechandising are the main driving forces, no longer sales, so I think I'll focus a bit more on marketing.

Mike D, you crack me up ! Get back in your box, and stop being so bloody well right !

cheers, niteshift

There will ALWAYS be people in any industry that inovate, succeed and prosper. Some will seemingly "not deserve it" for some people's taste, some of the most deserving simply will not catch the break.

A few things that provide some bright spots are things like around half of the current crop of mainstream country singers, are from labels and through publishers that did not exist five years ago. These are people who did not nessasarily have enormous budgets and the good wishes of the industry.

They are people who for the most part, worked their way into many doors, by being inovattive, pro-active, and WAY on top of their game. They are people who are very good studies, work their angles and interject themselves into an existing set of circumstances and have had great effect.

From a major writing party yesterday, to a writers night tonight here in Nashville, I have heard parts or total songs of over 200 songwriters. Quite literally hundreds of songs. And I can count on one hand the songs I can even remember. That is because it is very hard to do this right. Having a "good song" is simply not enough in our amazingly short attention spans. That is why we have to be "great." In the end, if you strip away all of the hyperbole, the money, the other trappings of fame, you are still with the backbone of our industry. Great songs.
Worry about writing those. All else will follow, or it won't. But you will have participated somewhere great and will be in a better personal space than you thought you might be.

All my best,

MAB

It's fitting that after all the pro and con argument, debate, emotion and all...that it comes back 'round to this simple truth...

...for the "value" of a "great song" to a time and place goes far beyond any exchanged currency, but into complex realms...some defining who we are, and of shaping us as people. Great songs "mark us" -- can "change us"...

But that all sounds like a lot of pressure, I'll just try to write the best song I can, and go from there...

Go into ANY group of 4 people and ask who writes or plays a musical instrument.... the witing includes lyrics ballads poetry and stories the musical instrument includes the voice/ singing... 2 will write 1 will play a musical instrument the 4th will either do one or the other or both or if not will own a musical instrument they always wanted to learn.... you need to push for true answers because for many it is a personal thing and they don't like to admit in public they do it for fear of being laughed at.... every one wants to be involved at some level in rhytmical story telling and music.... which to my mind are two sides of the same coin...

I believe there is too much focus on the well known and the being great (which is why a ticket to watch them costs 200-1000 dollars for one show) and not enough time spent on developing the grass roots local community culture.... Give to your community and it will cherish you forever.

Hi Noel,

You are coming from a broader, healthier perspective: that of music as a natural part of life--more the "folk" model. Do you think modern culture negatively affects this type of "grass roots community culture", or do you think they happily co-exist, side by side?

And worth listening to when well-performed.

I agree with Noel - think of all the guitar centers, drum shops, music teachers out there. If they were only selling to or training to people who make a living at music, do you think they would be able to stay in business? Hardly.....

I believe making music is important to a tremendous number of people - only if they only do it to please themselves and a few people around them. I'd go on to speculate that most of them are not thinking about music as a source of income but of enjoyment.

It's like playing in a softball league and watching the world series. No one would quit playing softball just because the major leaguers go on strike. Heck, they might even play a little more.

I have nothing but respect for people trying to make a living through music. There are many easier ways to make a living so it is obvious that they are doing it because they love it. Or, more accurately, are trying to make a living at something they happen to be passionate about. Nothing better to shoot for, in my opinion....

But if all radio play was shut down, all concerts cancelled, all CDs and ipods melted, music would survive just fine....

What's it worth? Well, it's priceless - in the correct meaning of that word......

All my own opinion, of course.

Scott

Music is worth something different to each person...

to the person who has lost a loved one- it's comfort, $ who cares
to the lovers touching tenderly- it's fuel for the fire, whatever $$, the man 'll pay
throw three beers back- you're gonna dance to something, in the price of the beer
take a shower- atleast 50% of people sing or hum something in the shower, more hot water costs more $$
take a road trip- what's a road trip without your favorite songs, buy the car with the good stereo $$
go to church- how better to offer praise and worship, feel good put a $20 in the hat
get married- here comes the bride, pay the entertainers would ya?
sporting event- we will, we will, rock you, built in the ticket price
performing musician- it's your groceries man, the more they pay, the better you eat
songwriter- it's your passion, maybe some of your groceries too, the fact you've created something that didn't exist 2 hours before, it's a gas, gas, gas... caution: may be addicting, very expen$ive to pursue as a career, may cost you your brain if you don't, or a couple o' wives if you do
memories- many of us associate events or highlights with what music was playing at the time.memories are priceless.
passing it on- it's of great joy to turn young listeners onto songs we consider wonderful, those always feel like special times. give 'em the cd, you already put it on your i-pod.i-pod=$$

Music-what's it worth? there is no price tag that can be placed on it...if it weren't for sale in stores or for download, we'd still be sitting around campfires playing or singing what brings us joy.

but, if we have to stick a price tag on it, i have 2 cd's i'll sell ya for $12.99 each or if you'd prefer individual tracks they're on i-tunes for 99 cents each, click that cdbaby link below and we'll get 'em right out to ya

Hey guys,

I kind of felt I needed to clarify a postion. Recently some of you might have noticed that I have been a little irritated with some of the talk of Government funding of the arts and of writers and artists that have the attitude of "Give me some of that, everybody else is doing it." That all bothers me and in my opinion creates many more problems for the arts than it helps.
And I have been somewhat focused on some of the negative issues, downloading, lost market share, etc. that we all have seen and discussed. But I don't want to indicate that I think music will go away. Actually, I feel exactly the opposite. We have seen dramatic increases in interest in music, from American Idol, to Nashville Star, home recording, sales of musical instruments and people getting music lessons and making trips to places like Nashville.
Actually, I am very encouraged by that and am attempting to help people do just that, which are what my postings are about. My actual business is as a "tour guide" for people trying to negotiate the complexities of the music business. So I hope that many come all the time. And they do.
My suggestions to you all are based upon my theory that you make great music, write great songs, learn your craft, make the relationships, learn the basics and intricacies of networking and business, exploring the various avenues in different markets, if you do that first, you will see that other things will follow. Proof is on pages like these, where there are many like minded individuals across the world who are sharing informaition, discussing elements and helping each other. I'd say that is a pretty strong indication that there is always hope and always interest in moving forward.

As always, I wish you the best.

MAB

I think it is also very important to never loose sight of the things that music brings which are simply priceless. For example, I had a lady come up to me after a show and tell me that one of my songs turned her life around. Another fan told me he listened to my music while jogging every morning to be inspired for the rest of the day.

While I definitely think that making money is important (I gotta eat), those are the things that truly matter to me. Something I did meant something to somebody else... wow!

Hi Marc I agree with what you say...I have been in the business a very long time and have seen many many changes..not just in musical styles but in attitudes and also the availability of production and recording methods. It is changing almost on a daily basis. Nowadays people all over the world can mindmeld instantly...these collabs and cowrites were unheard of even a few years ago. Anyone with a PC and a guitar or keyboard can record pretty good quality stuff in their own living room using state of the art software. Like yourself I try and help others in any way I can.

All that said it saddens me that the business is still run by suits who basically are only interested in profit and seem unable to sign up the best new innovative acts....they seem to concentrate on mediocre clones who produce third class same old lip sync Karaoke songs.

Whilst great music IS available from many indie artists the top liners are getting away with murder music wise. I watched the Brit awards last night and "OH dear" what a sorry sad bunch of third raters....this is the best in the business?...No way!

Whilst there is a place for everybody in our business it seems that the mediocre manufactured and overly hyped pop singers are rising to the top under false pretences whilst the quality musicians are struggling with the scraps left over.

Whilst we should be encouraging ALL fellow musicians there comes a point when we should say enough is enough. Expose these charlatans for what they are...overpaid, overhyped, overated and undertalented.

I watched a program on TV the other night about an indigenous tribe of people in the Amazon rain forest. They have had almost no contact with the outside world, have almost no possessions, have no clothes, no shoes, no tools, and spend all their time growing, hunting and preparing food to survive. But at one point in the show, one of the men started tapping out a rhythm on the ground with a stick and singing and dancing to entertain the others.

Music is in the dna.

Ello big Jim,

I'll be wearin' me kilt for ya today me boy if tha wind were not a blowin' up me drawers! LOL! (My grandparents were McClusky and Campbells.)

There is always crap. In the 50's for every Elvis, there were dozens of Fabians, Frankie Avalons, Tab Hunters, Pat Boones,etc. the 60's everybody got a Beatles hair cut and followed that trend, with the Bugs, the Turtles, the Trogs, etc.

70's brought the folk invasion, the heart throbbing disco beats, the 80'sthe Corporate Rock, the 90's Seattle and Athen's grunge, and their counter parts all over the world. It always happens. Everyone thinks they have the "next big thing" and trot them out. Record companies are there to make money. And everyone who puts an artist out there thinks they truely have it. It many times comes down to bad decisions, clouded thinking, record company insest (Maria Carey and Tony Motolla) and now every karaoke singer out there.

What we have to do my great plaid friend, is play the game. What if you were to find a decent artist in a local karaoke night with those stars in their eyes and looking very good? What if you had a very good song that you wrote with or for that singer? What if you had a really good demo of that song and he or she sang it? What if they ended up auditioning for POP Idol or in some other show and the judges while rejecting her or him, approahced them afterword and said "you know, sorry we just can't use you at this time, but what was that song you were doing? That is what we are looking for for another artist."

That just gave you another pitch on the song. And you might have helped that artist. And THAT has happened numerous times particularly here.
A couple of years ago, a song came across a record label's desk. He didn't care that much for the song, but LOVED the demo singer on it. When he asked who the singer was, it turned out that she was his own Secretary. She ended up with a record deal.

The point is that you can't do anything about the crap that is out there. You just need to make sure you are not part of it. Do the best you can. Write with other people, which give you more access. Write great passionate songs that people love. Get it out as much as you can in any way you can. If you concentrate on touching lives, making somebody's good memories, you are in the game, no matter if you never have a hit. As a great freind and co-writer of mine said in a song one day, "I might be the best three and half minutes of somebody's day." That is what you need to be.

MAB

Hi Marc and thanks for the response. I am a performer first and foremost so I do not need to write music to make a living. My living comes from my singing. Perhaps my views are slightly different from the none performing songwriters AND THERE IS THE POND. So many influences are different as well as tastes in music.
I agree that there has always been crap..but your definitions of good and bad differ from mine. I have always felt that Elvis was overrated and the Troggs were underrated. Wild thing is and always will be a classic. That said I understand your POV.
Yes I try and do my best..same as everybody else.
When all said and done songwriting has little to do with talent. It is down to connections and influence. You don't have to be Einstein to see that. Just look at the charts. I do not buy this nonsense that the cream will always rise.
I am of the opinion that we can do something about it. We can write better stuff as you say BUT we can also draw attention to the crap and show people that there IS better stuff out there.
A lot of indie music is now sold online outside the control of the traditional crap shovellers. They do not like it....people muscling in on their monopoly.
TV and especially reality shows are ruining the business because slots which used to be the chance for new acts to show off their stuff are now used to promote nobodys.
I think we should speak out against this and not try and pretend everything is OK.
Whilst it is nice to be nice about these "popstars".....it is better to be honest.

Jim,

There may be some things that you think of as crap but many people don't. Actually the majority of sales are not on the internet. They are actually downloading for free. The sales represent about 28%. Free and peer to peer file sharing dominate. So people can get millions of hits and sell very little.
Yes, there are people that are outside the mainstream and always have been. But in order to get more visibility you need retail establishments and visibility in the mainstream. There are just too many sites on the Internet to make for a convincing sales figures. That is why you have reality shows. When you can be seen by 100 million people, that is a chance at a lot more sales. But I am the first to agree that there are many crappy things.
And by the way, I liked the Troggs okay. It is just the follow the leader business. But in all cases, you can NEVER force people to buy records. Ever.
In Nashville, people sometimes wonder how some songs get on ther radio. There are subjects or pathways they do that most people would go, NO WAY. Look at the track record of the writer. You sell several millions in record sales and represent millions of dollars, yeah, you are going to have a lot of leeway. Or if you are the artist.
But make no mistake, there is a lot of money invested in all of these things and nobody just throws money away. So somebody is buying it, going to concerts, buying downloads, joining fan clubs, doing web sites, lining up at meet and greets and getting autographs.
And that is where the rubber meets the road.

MAB

And you might make the case that Elvis might have been overrated, but he changed the nature of the business, inspired millions of writers, artists, clothing and hair styles, fueled magazines, movies, television, web sites, etc. like almost no one else has. Like the title of one of his albums said,

"One hundred million Elvis fans can't be wrong."

MAB

Oh yes they can LOL!!!

Nice chatting and seeing different POV. I am about as far from Nashville as you can get both musically and geographically. I know it has its own rules and peculiarities but at the end of the day we are all music lovers. I accept the "one mans meat is another's poison" scenario but maintain that most musical people can differentiate crap and tone deafness from real talent without much trouble.

I just do my best....and am perhaps too critical of untalented people who make something in the business when perhaps there are more deserving folk.

Too honest for my own good....was how one well known artist who I used to work with once described me. He was probably correct.

Speak to you soon. JIM

"All my wishes, hopes and fears for the last 30 years
I write for the love of the art
It's really kinda funny when you do it for the money
Won't be long til you fall apart"

Ain't much else to it......Uhh, that is, if you're talking about music's worth in other terms besides just money....

This may be a subject for another thread, but after reading Snake's (Sam) quote I want to respond.
I have been playing music in one form or another since I was nine years old when my parents bought me a violin. Music was something to learn in my family just as reading and writing was. I later learned the clarinet, then the sax in middle and high school. I always had a guitar around but never really got serious about playing it until I was 21. I started writing my own songs about six years ago. I've always put my guitar skill above songwriting. I would rather be a great guitar player than a great songwriter but being both would be a bonus.

As a person who has been around music, but not the music industry all of my life, I don't see any problem with a person who wants to make a living with music at any capacity including writing songs for money. There seems to be a disconnect from various threads that I've read between the love of a craft and simply going into the craft just for money. It isn't that simple.
Sure, there are amateurish songwriters who think that they can make easy money with their clever lyrics who have no clue of how the industry really works. You can spot them a mile away. Some may be "crumudgeons".

My point is that I see nothing wrong with someone who has been groomed since childhood to read, write and perform music and later took it upon them self to continue the craft into adulthood. It's no different than any other profession. Yes the love of the art is there, but most likely ingrained from experience and it won't go away. Just like I've read on these boards from others, If my songs are never heard, it doesn't matter and that makes me kind of immortal because they will always be there.

To paraphrase Marc, if you want to write simply for the love of it, you could also make ceramics, paint or maybe get into macrame. Everyone who writes a hit song gets paid. Ben

Ben,

All my life I've had folks criticize me for "selling out" with my music. The folkies thought because I played some pop stuff or learned jazz chords that I was selling out. The acoustic crowd was horrified that I would play an electric guitar. The bluegrassers thought it ridiculous when I got gigs playing R&B, and the rockers couldn't get into my folks stuff. Most of those "purists" are working in a bank somewhere, wearing ties and getting their butts chewed out by bosses from whom they live in terror.

I've played music and I've put up drywall. I'd rather play music.

Thanks Mike, I hope that you don't think that I was complaining because I wasn't. I was only trying to figure out the "love of music" thing that is so basic, and the correlation between that and getting paid to write and/or make music.
I've never had the problems that you have had with "selling out" because I have been pretty consistent with my music, and I don't have an iota of your level of experience, but if I did, I'm sure that I would take it the same way that you do. Music is music and banks are banks. I'll take the music. Banks are like hospitals to me. I don't like to go into them.

I've had about 50 jobs in my life, the longest lasting nine years. I did drywall and hated it. You gave me an idea for a gen. thread. "Dirty jobs", see you over there. Ben

No, I didn't read you as complaining. Write that song, it's a hit.

Ben,

The people that I know who do this well, do both. If someone like Jeffery Steele can write "My Wish" he was doing it for his daughter, who was getting married. Chris Wallin, writing "I'm Trying" for a man who was being harrased by his ex for child support money when the man was having a really rough time.
Jeffery wrote "What Hurts the Most" to express heartace over his 14 year old Son Alex's death on a four wheeler. David Vincent Williams wrote "I'm Moving On" when he was getting ready to quit music and move home. Tim Nichols and Craig Wiseman wrote "Live Like you were Dying" for a friend who was dying of cancer and it happened to fit Tim McGraw's situation with his Father.
The key to it is finding the Heart of the song. That is why you always follow the three rules of songwriting from our point of veiw here:
#1 Reality based.
#2 Conversational
#3 Great Melodic hook.

If you find real subjects about real people, you can find a lot more heart than just making things up. But you never let the facts get in the way of a good story. It doesn't always have to happen to you. You don't have to be a homeless person to know it sucks pretty bad. But you do have to find elements of truth in that lyric.

Making sure that your lyric is something people could have a conversation with. If you can't speak it, don't write it.

Working out your melodies around singability, where anyone could sing it, not being complicated, keeping it simple and where anyone can hum along, is the key.

MAB

I am in the fortunate position of being paid for doing what I like best...singing and making music. OK sometimes I have to perform stuff that is "not my cup of tea" or stuff that I have done to death but it is a small price to pay and is miles better than a proper job. Re selling out...never thought about...never been accused of it and had plenty folk wish they could do what I do and had my job.

I would do it for nothing...but getting paid is a bonus.

As for songwriting I dabble for my own amusement and could not care less if anybody listens or any of my songs ever "make it"
It would of course be neat to have a hit or two but not the end of the world if I do not. My life does not revolve around trying to make it happen. I realise that if it did the odds would still be stacked against me. I will of course try and network build up songwriting partnerships and pitch but no big deal if it comes to nothing.

jim,

I have never known a successful songwriter who moved or started doing music for the money. Actually if you are trying to do this you are making music while working two and three jobs. If it works out, that is gravy.
But you do get closer to the mark by writing with other people, building those relationships and understanding your market. Making money is just a by product if you do it right and all the planets align.
But mostly it is just doing the work every day and staying at it.

MAB

I cited this quote for a reason, I have written several songs about homelessness, all in a humorous nature and people connect. Leave out the humor and they go away.
If you can get the audience to laugh about their situation by using the old time hobo song revised, than that may be a sample of everyday life today for a lot of the music buying public. I know what you are saying about father/daughter love, personal tragedies, etc. but people do love to laugh at themselves. Tobey Keith is a fine example of someone laughing at ones self. Ben

Marc, the points of yours and Rand's that are resonating most with me--keeping me up at night, in fact--are keeping songs positive, and getting out of my own head.

Blammo.

I get it. I also get that it's easier said than done...but I get it. I look forward to writing more appealing songs because of those two gems right there. THANK YOU.

Marc, my own personal route I have decided to go down is write, record and produce my own album at home and, depending if I can pull of yet another 0% credit card balance trick, to get it professionally mixed and mastered, then sell it on iTunes. How I will sell it, is a bridge I will cross when I meet that bridge.

It seems to me that this is by far the best route to go down for me and perhaps a lot of others too. Rather than bemoaning the Internet for damaging the music industry, I personally think it's given the music industry back to the the artists, and made it far easier to go it alone without their backing. Sure that's made it possible for a zillion others to do the same but the cream will always rise to the top, and I intend to be the cream.

The artist route is one I think more should go down, if they have the relevant tools, and you're no longer tied by the rules of writing a song to pitch purely as a commercial product.

Just out of interest, what would you say the odds are of the guy like me, a nobody in the music world, ever achieving real success by this route?

Cheers Lucian

Lucian, it seems to me that Marc's priciples would still apply. You've still got to sell your cds to the cd buying public.

Lucien,

Actually what I am saying includes the internet. The money that was once was in music is no longer there. So everyone has to get used to making less. But everyone is doing exactly what you are talking about. Recording their own product, getting it distributed as best they can. The Internet is a tool. Just like retail stores.
But you have to get people to you. How are you going to do that? How many shows are you playing? How far does your reach extend? How many people come to your shows. Since about 3 out of 50 will buy CD's, how many are you getting there.
The Internet has been the worlds biggest dual edge sword. You can let people know who you are, what you do and give them examples, delivered to their living room, through the computer. But it has also conditioned them to expect music for free. They are not interested in your problems writing, recording and putting a CD together. They think that just because you are musician, you make a lot of money and don't need theirs. And besides, "Everybody does it." So that is what you have to do.
How good a chance do you have? As good or bad as anybody. If you are hard working, put about 10-12 hours a day in making phone calls, advancing gigs, contacting people to come to your gigs, local press interviews, CD reviews, radio interviews, making yourself availible to local charities, and venues, driving long distances, making little money until you build a following to make a decent cover charge, CD, hat, and t-shirt sales, and every day are thinking about the next three weeks, you will probably do fine. If you don't do all that, you will have a lot of CD's to use for coasters, give to friends, build birdhouses out of, and learn to not do it the second time the same way.

Like everything, this business is what you put into it.

MAB

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but this is a bad plan! I know it is, because that's what I've done with my last CD of which I've sold precisely 1 copy on iTunes to date. (I did sell quite a few copies on CD at concerts and such)

Being present on iTunes (or in any other shop) by itself is not enough. You have to tell people you are there! That's why this time around, I've set money aside for a promotional campaign. (if you're interested in details, read this: http://www.jimofferman.net/blog/2009/financials)

Conventional wisdom is that you have to spend about 40% of your budget on marketing, but even 10% (what I'm doing) is MUCH better than nothing. People do buy music, t-shirts and what not... but you gotta reach out to them first!

Some more rain on the Internet parade:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/dec/23/music-sell-sales

John