JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum How many songwriters does it take to...

How many songwriters does it take to write one song-of-the-year contender?

In the case of Estelle's Grammy-nominated American Boy, seven — one fewer than the category's other four songs combined.

Article in USA Today:
Songwriters

One writes it. The others are assistnants to get coffee, one walked down the hall at the right time,the artist sand two lines for the melody, the song plugger added two words, and the cab driver changed an of to a the.

MAB

Isn't that the truth. I co-wrote a song with the people I work with a few months ago.

This week it is getting cut with a major artist and I was informed that the artist is most likely going to change a few things in the song so that he can get writing credit.

Unfortunately, if I decided that I wanted to say no to that, then the artist would most likely ditch the song and I wouldn't get the cut on his album.

In this particular case, the other co-writers feel it is beneficial to let the artist do it, so I said yes to it as well.

We shall see what happens at the end of the day.

But these situations are quite common.

Greg

Keep in mind, it doesn't matter if a song is a potential hit or not. A lot of people think that if you have a great song, then that's all that really matters. Not so much.

The truth is, it's political. If you can survive the red tape, then congratulations, you get to move on to the next round. ;-)

Greg

If the Artist is only getting a writing credit on his release I would have no problem with it. But if he wants a part of Copyright I would most likely reject that unless I, (The writer's) are getting an up front hefty fee.

I understand your feelings, Ray, but a release on a major artist's album, if they are big enough, is like a guaranteed fee. When the banks were solid, a cut on a big selling artist's album was good enough to get a loan.

Now, if the writer has a lot of clout, then maybe...maybe...

I'll bet Marc has a good perspective on this.

Have you asked why? is it for the writers credit, the royalty or both? and then if they want a credit... offer it for a fee with no changes and you keep all the royalty, if they want the royalty ... take the cut with no change and no loss of credit... and if its both then maybe offer two songs so you get the equivilent royalty to one.... Just a thought ... these guys are business men...

I agree with the band a cut is better than no cut....

Cheers

cheers

For this particular artist (and I am not naming who it is at this time), all songs going on the album will only be considered if "artist" has a co-write on each song. That means name on song, share in writers' copyright and share in publishing.

I am not a big name writer yet. I don't have any chart topping number one hits yet. It's only one song. I'm not gonna put up a big stink about it. At the end of the day, it's being cut by the artist. For me, it's another writing credit and another step up.

I can live with it.

Greg

If you really like the song as it is, maybe you should offer the co-write in exchange for just leaving it alone.

Seriously though, if a major is willing to take you to the dance, then by all means, offer the co-write. What would you rather have: a partial share of a million seller, or an entire share of nothing at all?

Actually.

I just spoke with the producers....The artist won't be touching the lyrics. It'll be melodic changes after the bridge toward the end of the song.

Mark. I would rather have a partial share of a platinum (million seller) record than a share of nothing at all. That's a no brainer.

As I said, I already gave my approval of the whole deal. The artist is cutting the song, we just gotta wait until all the songs that the artist is cutting is done and then it will go to the next phase. Which songs make the album based on the labels' overall decision of songs recorded.

An artist will typically "cut" 40 to 50 songs. From that point, then the label and artist have a meeting and narrow down those songs to the 20 best ones. After those songs have been chosen, then another elimination process is commenced until 12 to 15 songs have been chosen. Those 12 to 15 songs will be what the album is made up of.

Actually.

I just spoke with the producers....The artist won't be touching the lyrics. It'll be melodic changes after the bridge toward the end of the song.

Mark. I would rather have a partial share of a platinum (million seller) record than a share of nothing at all. That's a no brainer.

As I said, I already gave my approval of the whole deal. The artist is cutting the song, we just gotta wait until all the songs that the artist is cutting is done and then it will go to the next phase. Which songs make the album based on the labels' overall decision of songs recorded.

An artist will typically "cut" 40 to 50 songs. From that point, then the label and artist have a meeting and narrow down those songs to the 20 best ones. After those songs have been chosen, then another elimination process is commenced until 12 to 15 songs have been chosen. Those 12 to 15 songs will be what the album is made up of.

Guys, if you knew just how hard it was to be in the position of where Gregory is, you would be saying CHANGE AWAY. To my friend Keith Anderson, cutting in George Jones and Garth Brooks in on BEER RUN, led to his entire career. That is probably several million dollars over the years. If you want to play the game you let them make changes if it strenthens the songs in your favor.
One of the first things people who want to do this have to do, is not get so attached to their songs. They are just songs. And if they get you in tons of other doors, what is the big deal? You will write more songs and if you have a big hit, people will be coming to write with you.
And who knows you might like it better. I know on my David Ball cut, it was almost a totlly different song. My version was southern rock, his was Texas Two step. And they changed a few lines. No problem. The producer was my co-writer in addition to the producer on the project. His song too.
Get out of your own way and let the big boys do their stuff. You will be happy you did. And yes, there is a LONG way from a hold to a cut. A LONG way from a hard hold to a cut. A LONG Way from a cut and a release. A LONG way from a release and a single. Just put on your seat belts and move on to other things. They will let you know when they have something for you to know about. hope that you get a sincronization liscence. That means you have a single and possible video. That is the best place to be.

MAB

outside the music business this tactic would be called extortion

but in our fine industry its called business as usual...........


Tom

Hi Mark,

Great to hear from someone in the big leagues.

Great advice - "Change Away".

Do what ever it takes to get recognition in this crazy business (I refuse to have sex with a guy though).

As I believe you stated on another thread - "presence" is very important. If I have to sacrifice a song or two to get there (or even three or four), so be it.

Thanks for the sound advice.

Best, John

Congratulations Greg!

From reading the topic, I thought the subject was going to be:

Q: How many songwriters does it take to change a light bulb?

A: Change? What do you mean? I'm not changing anything!

The song and the song writer is the most important thing and person in the whole music industry, yet it is treated like a bastard child to be claimed as the offspring of whomever wants to take credit for it. I know of one artist that makes millions performing but still wants to pilfer as many pennies from the writers that provide her with the foundation of her career. Artist have to have songs to sing, why do they need to be recognized as writers too. They get all the glory and most of the money, yet they want a share of your soul. That would cause a pimp to blush. Most people think the singers wrote the songs anyway, why confirm it. They can't cry poor and say they need the radio royalties to make ends meet. The US is the only country in the civilized world that does not give a royalty to the singer and record label. That is where they need to get their needed royalties, not off the song writer.

The basement(foundation) of a house may be the least glamorous part of the house, but take it away and the house will fall flat in a short time. Songs are the foundation of the music industry, without them there would be no industry, singing phonebooks will have little appeal to music lovers.

...to change a light bulb?

Why..SEVEN, of course:
1) One to screw in the bulb..
2) One to Brew The Coffee..
3) One to Handle Contracts..
4) One to Assauge the PROs..
5) One to Cover The Electric Bill..
6) One to study The Ecological Impact..
And
7) One to throw The Switch!~

Probably MORE if it's a Union Shop...?

(Happy Bailout Ahead!)
Stan

Hey Everette and all,

Reading down and enjoying what you are saying. What I do is try to explain things from the "other side of the desk" and bring some perspective to these threads. I do this because I truly care about the people on these pages and want you to see more complete pictures so that it will help you in your writing, recording, and wherever your journey should take you. I really am always here for you. I want you to pay attention to that face on my picture because is the way I am smiling when I write these things. So nobody gets the wrong idea about things I say, pay attention to that and pretend I'm looking like that while I talk to you.

The "The song is everything" is a great mantra. It does begin there and NSAI's slogan is "It all begins with a song." Without songs we wouldn't have anything. But there are other ways you have to look at it. Most people would not shell out $50-$100 a ticket to see some song writer sit around in his living room to play songs. That has to be artists. And what I am bringing to this particular thread is the artists position in this mix. I think I am in a pretty good position to do this since the artist I am working with is about to sign a major record deal next week and I got him there.
It is very easy to look at Kenny Chesney, who makes 100 million dollars a year and go "Hey look at the big artist." WHy does he want our meager money?" But there are very few Kenny Chesney's. Of all the major artists that are out there at any one time, there are probably less than 20 that make a majority of the money. Most are mid level artists, who are barely getting by.The writer never sees that.
The writer doesn't have tour buses and staff, musicians and insurance. For that $100 million, it costs about $40 million to keep that tour rolling. There are ENORMOUS payrolls involved, just like any business. And the writer's don't incur that. They don't put out the two million dollars plus to launch an artist. And out of 12-15 people on anyone label roster, about 3 will make enough money to be resigned.
For a "Real Reality check" it takes approximatly 680,000 in sales to break even on a mainstream record release. American Idol's Taylor Hicks and Ruben Stoddard, sold under three hundred thousand of their products. That is after being seen by over ONE HUNDRED MILLION people over a period of time. That is how tough this business is.
I am not really even defending artists, record labels, etc. as much as trying to explain the "other side of the desk." In my current primary project, Frankie Ballard. I work with about 500 people a year. Been doing it for ten years. I work writing songs, teaching, traveling, have written 920 songs with about 1200 people in four years. It took all of those (and I must say I am pretty proud of about all of them) to get me to Frankie and the magic five or six that provided the basis for his deal. He started working with me one year ago, signed a major publishing deal in August and is about to sign a major record label.
But I am not the only one involved here. It takes Rene' Mauve, the NSAI coordinator that found him. Walt Aldrich, the hit songwriter who took what I had done on Frankie and walked him to Sony music for his publishing deal. It took Troy Tomlinson, the head of Sony to use his political clout to get the top label heads in the country music industry, Luke Lewis of Universal, Joe Galante and Rene Bell of Sony records, other major players, writer like Bob Dipero, Frank Meyers and Jeffery Steele to show up at his showcases. And he gave 150 of his employees the afternoon off with pay to be there. It will take hundreds of record label people, radio promoters, DJ's, and ultimately, hopefully the fans, to make things happen by embracing what Frankie does.

And you know what? I wrote about 90% of the main songs that got him there. Should I suggest that they make me a bigger part of everything? Nah. Not my style. I am a part. I have never gone to one Number one party where some artist was cut in on the writing without doing a lot, and the writers complained as they cashed their checks, paid off their houses, and got other cuts. I have never heard that conversation except from disgruntled writers who haven't had a cut in 20 years complaining about the "good old days." The poeple who really do this business in this day and age, never do that because they know how many people it takes to make an aritst.

So I am happy to be here and just want to point out other things that people go through. It is easy to complain about the CEO's who spend this bailout money on offices and planes. It is easy to always point a finger at someone else and complain they have something we don't have.
I just would like people to see how the other parts of this work so they can adjust what they need to do. Want to get a cut in this day and age? Find some artists and write with them on the ground floor. Interact with the community. Help other people.BE a driving force for good. Don't complain because somebody might be getting something they don't deserve.That is happening every day and with this bunch of idiots in Washington there is your poster children. I just think we do better when we keep our own efforts moving forward and work on that, and understanding how all this works instead of complaining about things we can't do anything about.

That is my labored explanations, sorry it takes so long but a lot of these things don't have simple explinations. I hope it makes sense. If you have questions, ask away. Or I will shut up if need be.

MAB

Marc,

I couldn't have said it better myself....very detailed.

and to all you that didn't understand...Stop complaining!

Marc is the real deal.
You have a pro giving you business advice. in the "real world" it wouldn't be for free!

JPF is amazing that we can attract a pro for business advice and for critiques and for FREE!
This website is awesome!

Yes very sad ... Just shows how greedy and insecure they really are...

Right now? With my condition,,,,,And to be in MY Favor?, (which means my band will also benefit in some way or another), CHANGE AWAY! If the cut will be made, and the artist is a in the game player, then again, change away. Just don't take out the good hooks I might have!

With what I'm going through now, show me the deal, and I hope the guys are good ones at least. Things can work out for me better later. "Just let this one foot in"


"Could it be" written by John Daubert, Buddy Holcombe, Iggy Taylor, Mike Caro, Scott Campbell, Clive Davis, Brian Austin Whitney, Marc Barnette, and Paul McCartney.

Don't you close this door on me, baby
Just let one foot in
An' take this flowers from my hand
Two weeks now you're not lettin' your heart show
We'll I'm not gonna say goodbye,,eyeye
Could it be, that you've heard this, all before?

Want more, with the song? Request away.

Let me see... who was it that said... There are no limits to what may be accomplished... if you don't care who gets the credit! Unfortunately, like Everett... I care! After creating more than 700 songs (Everett has more than 2000) one would think that it might earn just a modicum of respect... but not in this business. Because we don't have the contacts who will "grease the skids for us" or hide a key to the back door in Nashville for us to use every now and then... we struggle to be heard.

Marc is right however, in the end... it does not matter provided that the poor schnook writer is at least partially connected to the income stream generated when Mr. Big records his little ditty... after demanding a portion of the writer's share. (Marc, I'm not attempting to "shoot the messenger.") Your words are facts.

But, to my way of thinking... it is a sad commentary on the convoluted state of songwriting today... and the music industry in general. Being "an audience of one" is not a very pleasurable experience but I have no trouble sleeping nights as a result.

In reality, the 50 apples in this barrel we call the United States are "rotting away" because our congress and our courts have betrayed the American People. So badly, in fact, that our children will be destined for poverty and serfdom because there will be no manufacturing jobs. Instead, we will all be expected to work at McDonalds, Wal-Mart or the local Hospital for minimum wage, no benefits and long hours, harrassment and quota systems designed to create constant turnover. Unfortunately, it is a flawed model where only the rich can run for office... and line their pockets if they lie sufficiently to win.

So, the "sickness" does not begin in Nashville.

Sorry for the "rant" folks but we, as a nation, are in deep dish chicken fat if we don't wake up and clean house in congress and the courts. 800 billion to bail out those miserable, greedy, toad sucking fools in our banking and investment communities. Who, pray tell, is going to bail out you and me?

Me! Just put your name on that list after making this song better, even with one word,,,,,or if you know somebody that will take us along with you, and away we all go to the grammays next year!

I'd rather have a team to share things with, then to be alone stroking my statue! ,,,Although,,,,,!

Ok, since no one asked in a few minutes, I did! So here's the next song to be picked up by a superstar, and with the help of many, who wil share in the limelight.

Pick out yer artist who needs this soon to be classic type hit, and make it one damnit!

"Could it be"
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=4029326

Now get to work!

Hey guys,

I guess one of the things that kind of surprises me is how little people seem to know of music history. When I moved into town in 1988, I met people who had been here since the 60's and they had known people who had been here in the 50's who brought me to people who had been here in the 40's. This stuff has never changed.
There is a reason it was always called "Starving artists" It has ALWAYS been like this. Van Gogh sold two paintings while he was alive. To his brother. Michaelanglo argued with the Pope over the 16th Chapel. Amedeaus Motzart died penniless. Am I the only person who has ever studied music history.
Why are their so many Beatles songs in commercials? Because Micheal Jackson sold the rights to the Beatles songs. Why did Miceal Jackson have the rights to Beatles songs? Because he outbid Yoko Ono and Paul McArtney when they tried to buy them. Why were they on the market in the first place? Because the Beatles signed bad deals at first and then later got so high on "All you Need is Love" did dumb things with Apple corp and made dumb decisions most of their lives. And still were billionaires.
Look, and I am going to look you dead in the eyes on this one. You guys can have lofty principals, and all kinds of rules and restrictions and do things your way. NO ONE forces any one to do this stuff. EVER. Everybody signs up for this and 90% of songwriters and artists wounds are self inflicted. So I don't buy the poor poor pitiful artists non-sense. When you are face to face with people with cancer, with families torn apart, when people can't pay for food, you get over this stuff pretty quick. We all need a realty check REAL fast. Nashville does that.
The only difference in the music business and six week old puppy?
The puppy eventually stops whining.

You can make memories or make excuses.

Your choice.

MAB

I wouldn't even care if they spelled my name Midnight Boob & listed me as the 4th writer right behind the coffee fetcher.

Shortly after moving to DC in '99, I learned the story behind "Take me home, country roads" and how much of that song John Denver actually wrote, and if you Google Bill Danoff & Taffy Nivert, you'll find that they never complained at all.

And if you take out that top 10% of gazzilionaires, you'll find a lot of performers whose shelf life is a coupla years. And if one of those now you hear 'em now you don't artists are foolish enough to put a song of mine on a CD while they're still being heard, then I've got no problem cutting 'em in on some future royalties.

I find it impossible to lose any sleep over this.

Midnite

I give up.

Well Folks,
It is all right to negotiate as long as you are clear of what you are negotiating. I do have the option of assigning publishing if a cut is in the works. If an Artist wants a reduced mechanical royality rate on the cut, it can be negoiated. If they want to buy a part of the copyright it can be negoiated. If they want something for nothing it will most likely be rejected.

If you are asked for something beyond what is reasonable do check it carefully before you jump. Most people on the other side are honest but even they may may not be aware of all the minefields you may be wadeing thru.

After the Contracts are signed it may be too late to correct something without going thru a messy Court fight if you feel you have been taken advantage of.

My former Publisher had a song recorded by someone on a Major Label. So far he has heard nothing about any roylaties on the cut. It has been a few years.

You have to know how the music business works even as a songwriter. A lot of people don't want to become business savvy but want to let someone else worry about that part.

Remember someone else may not know as much as you do so do like the Boy Scouts, be prepared. Write a hit!

Guys,

If you want to know how Nashville works, this story should tell you about it.

MAB

Let me tell you a NEW MAB story. This should cheer you up.

Last night, I played on a benefit show with about 30 of Nashville's biggest writers. Me and the Normie and Tina all were there. During the course of the night, Lisa Carver my special girlfriend that doesn't know it, Chris Wallin, Jeffery Steele, Micheal Peterson, Doug Johnson, new and up and coming artists and writers, and a ton of others all played because we are always suckers for a benefit. I guess we keep hoping that if we do enough of them one day, we will qualify for our own benefit someday! LOL!

Anyway, it was one of those nights that everything happens. A few hundred people, hit writers and producers, hot babes, new silly guys, everything. The first thing that happened when I got there was a new guy in town, a singer, gherms me with his CD. He had no idea who I was (Like that means anything) and being a new singer in town looking for demo work just KNEW I had to have his CD. I took it, kind of laughed and did the thing I really like to do with new, clueless people. I sicked him on Norm!!! LOL! That made me laugh for about an hour as Norm couldn't get the guy to SHUT UP!!!! I loved that. I think he GERMED Norm too after I convinced him that Norm was a talent scout for talent for porno movie soundtracks. God I love some of this stuff.
So one of the things about this night is Igot to see it through the eyes of a newbie who was just wondering around behind the little animals totally clueless.

One thing about the bigger writers that I know but most people don't pick up on is how they never go negative. Even when it is a tough song, "I'm Trying' abouttrying to keep up with a child support payments, (One really close to me), "Don't Blink' about getting older and at the end of your life, and hit after hit, they all have a "I'm gonna make it through this no matter what" quality. That is the key hit writing. And it was on display.

For my part, I saw an interesting thing happening. As I got ready to go onstage I saw Doug Johnson, hit songwriter (Three Wooden Crosses) and hit producer, record label chief and one of the most powerful men in town. Onstage i decided at the last minute to do something I don't do. I decided to play "My Heart Tells Me So" so I could hit him with my new civic mindedness. I just knew all these people were going to be blown away. But I have still not ironed out the lyrics and arrangement on it, and even changed the key yesterday to fit my voice better. I am still making changes.
So I did my three song set, started out with the Little Feat New Orleans "My Oh Mayoh", did my little vocal impressions on "Too Much Blood" and then did "Heart" on the last song, of course since I am still having to use my glasses, to see the lyrics, which keep slipping off my face due to the sweat, I am about to laugh my butt off at myself because I am such a goof, but I finish the song, hit some mega high notes and figured I had hit a pretty big home run. I didn't know where Doug went but he wasn't at the front table. Oh Well, I thought.
Later on in the night, he comes over to me. I am thinking "Here we go, he wants the big song!" He say's "Hey man, who has cut that first New Orleans sounding thing?" I told him nobody, but that it was being pitched. He asked me for a CD, which weirdly enough, I actually had one with me. To make a long story short, he had flipped on My Oh, and wanted to play it for Hank Jr. today. They are actually finished recording but he really wants to have Hank hear it and do it as a tribute to Hank's dad who did Jambalia. Again you never know but I seem to be getting pretty hot right now, so it wouldn't be surprised.
The point is that you never know what is going to hit people. Just when you think your big deal song is going to smash through, they will go for something you didn't even think of playing because you think it is fluff. That is Nashville.

MAB

Hey Marc,
I saw requests for Hank Jr. songs but I think he is with CURB so I couldn't send anything. I have a song Entitled: HANK, LOSE THAT HONKY TONK that would fit Hank Jr. pretty well. Haven't pitched it in a while. The last song Hank Released before he died was I'LL NEVER GET OUT OF THIS WORLD ALIVE.

No doubt being in the right place at the right time always helps. The best laid plans will never replace dumb luck!

Ray,

A little tip from the Row. Don't try pitching something that seems that obvious. You need to pay attention to where they are in the career. Hank is actually getting away from the whole "Honky Tonk" thing. He is past that at his age. This record will be more about mature subjects, the passing scene, one of my friends did his cut last night, about the economic scene.
Mine was WAY left of what they usually even listen to but they love that kind of music, which is like the band "Little Feat's "Dixie Chicken." Hank was a huge fan of Lowell George.
If you want to be smart on pitches find out where singers influences are. If you want to pitch something to Little Big Town, what would you pitch to Fleetwood Mac? If you want to pitch something to Montgomery Gentry, what would you pitch to Lynyrd Skynyrd?
Pitching is all about a little psycology and as you said a LOT of PURE dumb luck. But it does teach to always be prepared. You never know where you are going to be or who is listening.

MAB

Very cool! Good luck to you on that cut.

Jack,

Thank you but it is a LOOOOOONNNNNNGGGGGGG way from a cut. It is just getting a song heard directly at the top of the heap. But that is all it means. It is a BIG difference between a listen and a cut. A BIG difference between a cut and a release. A BIG difference between a release and a single. And that is what really matters. And factoring that Hank is a few years past his prime toward a radio single, I can't see that happening.
But it is a funny example of how this town works. It is always odd things that happen here which show you that no one ever know and that you can never plan or depend on anything. You just always keep moving forward.

MAB

Thanks Marc,
The song isn't a Hank Song or anything like it. It is a Muse about the current state of Country Music and all the gripes that have been in the realm for the last 20 years at least of what is out there on Hot Country Radio. There have been a steady stream of complaints about country Radio, the short playlists, repeating the same so-so over and over again, Song Consultants telling us what we will hear, on what was or still is Clear Channel Radio, and the fact that you can no longer call your local radio station to request a song. And if you can if it isn't on their Play List they can't or won't play it.

There is always people seeking songs from outside Nashville so everyone has a chance to get heard if only sparingly.

The Publisher I worked with and I used to discuss the music Scene. We used to ponder what was the Number One Song last year.
We couldn't seem to recall which one it was.

With the Economy like it is I wonder if anyone is doing any Recording in Nashville to speak of.

It's bad when you can still hear Mozart but you can't hear Webb, Carl, Marty, Lefty or the like. There is no reason radio can't play one or two songs from the past every hour. Oh well.

Ray,'

If you look back through history there have always been this exact same complaints. Radio complains we don't send anything different. Record companies sent different things but they won't play them.
Actually Nashville has been humming along quite well. there are more artists than ever going into more areas than ever. Last year while every other market contracted country grew. But there is always room for improvement.
Radio responds to advertisers who do focus groups and other testing. Record companies release thousands of CD's that don't go anywhere and just don't ignite audiences. Thousands of new artists are all out there, doing radio tours, up and down the highways, some work, most don't.
Everyone is trying to get the all important hit singles but single get out and stay out longer. They will milk a video or single as long as it plays then it will fall like a stone when it doesn't.
Record company development budgets have been slashed on some new artists because they can maximize profits by developing interactive video games like Guitar Hero and Rock Star and promoting older hits.
Older artists are still out there and if you ever drive across the country and see Indian Casinos you are most likely to see the stars you knew and loved. And they usually make three times as much as they ever did in their hey day. XM and Sirius Radio have about 30 stations each dedicated to everything from Roots country to bluegrass, to oldies, to new artists, to established stars. The Internet has every thing that you can ever imagine from the Slim Whitman fan club to Kenny Chesney's latest release.
The world always changes and their are always problems. One of the fun things to do is sit around with guys from the 50's talking about driving all night in cars to radio stations that had no reach and not getting paid. Then people from the 60's talkning about riding around on busses going to radio stations and not getting paid, then people from the 70's talking about selling 50,000 copies at the top end of a record sales and not getting paid. Then from the80's, 90's and 2000's talking about too much competition and not getting paid.
My question has always been "When have any of you expected TO get paid?" Kind of like a friend of mine recently was listening to Reba McEntire complaining about the sorry state of the industry. My friend, one of her band members said "Well you could quit." Reba said, "Oh no, it's not that bad."
I guess it's always in the way you look at it.

Good luck.

MAB

Well Bud,
I used to listen to Country Radio a lot. Today I can turn on at least 2 Stations if I care to. If I can listen 30 seconds it is a mircle. I have been listening since about 1950. I'd like to give todays offering in "Country" a pass but they are going to have to give me something to listen to/buy. What is the last Country Album you bought in the last year or other type music?

I've asked the question before. Nobody answered.

Ray,

I hate to say it but you are not the target country audience,neither am I. We don;t buy records. How much of your parents music did you buy in 1950. You see, I just don't buy that whole "it's not like I liked it growing up" stuff. It's a nonsense argument that we all want to use when our type stuff is not in the mainstream any more. Gotta have a little historical perspective here bud. This is as old as music itself. I know Cain and Able were complaining about Adam's tone deafness on his animal horn.
Jamie Johnson's In Color. I've Had Moments. I'm Trying. I'm moving On. I don't know what there is not to like, but hey, you don;t have to buy any of it. I deal with 300 songs a week so I am not going to go buy anything. I haven't bought records in 20 years. Don't have to. I live in the middle of this stuff.
You know we can all sit up and shoot holes in each other's stuff. but it is always that kind of argument that come from people who don't listen to the radio, compains that it all either all sounds like crap, sounds alike or whatever the complaint of the day is.
And it NEVER changes. These same arguments are the same ones that have gone on since music started. If you or anybody wants to be the best writer in your living room that is great. Many people do. And that is what lots of people do. They just can't expect the rest of the world to bend to them,
And you can do what every body else that is in this business launching artists, labels and songs do. Get about $2.5 million dollars per artist, do videos, promotional tours, attend the country radio seminar, pay the fees that come at you from every angle from fees that have to be paid per tour to be on that tour, to the major venue owners, find ways to bump the headliners own artists off the existing tour, set up the merchandising, find the areas that test market well, try to minimize those that don't, submit to every fair and special event, attract a mutli million working manager and agent, line up corporate endorsments, be able to ride over the 80% that stiff, compete to get on Letterman and Leno, buy advertising time on major television shows, tie your artist or artists to product placement in movies and television, develop a marketing stratagy. Fail. Get back up. Fail again, get back up and do it again. Every day.

That's all there is to it.

MAB

Marc,
I know you are a good guy. We have discussed on this board of how an Artist becomes sucessful. Usually the idea is to start in your local market build a base and then expand outward. Then if you have a wide appeal you may become attractve enough to get signed to a Major Label of which isn't all it's cracked up to be but that is another subject.

A few years ago the Label Head at Capitol, I think had an issue with a song that involved Patsy Cline. To resolve the issue he said, "Well lets get Patsy in and see if we can solve it" Patsy had been dead for nearly 40 years but he didn't know that because he was from New York or someplace other than Nashville.

I think that is a general explanation of how the Music Industry works today. Label Owners don't live in Nashville but are huge Corporations that hire Label Heads who have to "Produce" or they get replaced by someone else. Don't know if you have read Jimmy Bowen's book ROUGH MIX but you might want to pick up a copy and read it. It was Published in 1997 so it has been a while since I read it. I have it.

We have also discussed Payola here from time to time of which may muddy the water of what gets played on the radio and what doesn't. We have also discussed the Crap that is played on Country Radio from time to time.

I'm not trying to re-invent music from the past. However if you listen to any of the hits from the past it sounds as fresh as like it was recorded yesterday. Thats why it was a hit.

It is difficult to write a good song. My songs have to satisfy me before I send them out to anyone else. I wish those putting out new music would use tougher standards but when they are on a timetable and have to compromise to get the product out it shows.

Sorry to rant but as an old friend once said, "I have been thru 3 World Wars, 2 County Fairs, and a .....

Ray,

I very much respect your opinion and you are going to get NOTHING from me defending the idiocy of the record labels. I don't. I try to get everyone to look at overall perspective. What you are saying is all to true in a lot of areas. But there are things that are differnt.

If you look at the country charts almost the entire male artist roster, Dierk's Bently, Josh Turner, Craig Morgan, Blake Shelton, several others,all came through a company that didn't exist five years ago. It was called "Broken Bow' records and was a very small publishing company. It got a few minor hits and then started building. It has been the story over and over in the past few years, and is why the hit writers (Steele, Wiseman, etc) have gone to producing and developing the acts before they get to the record labels. And there are some really different things out there.

For the past couple of months the top songs are Zac Brown, Country Fried, and Jamie Johnson, In Color. These guys are ANYTHING BUT the normal, cookie cutter type babe magnet singers. Actually they are the embodiment of unattractive men, and give hope to us facially and age challenged writer/artists everywhere. And there are others out there that are doing the same thing.
I am not saying there is a panacea. All I am saying is that this argument has ALWAYS gone on. Details change but if you read biographies (and that, along with actually talking to the people involved) is how I learn a lot of this stuff. There has always been tension between artists, labels, the marketplace, etc. It never ends.

My point is that too many people get bogged down in what they cna't do and complain about it. What we hear almost ad naseum how terrible things are, how hopeless things are. I go to the country radio seminar and hang out in the bar. i have friends in the radio world, the label world, artists, producers. The artists all bitch that they can't get airplay. Radio complains that they can't get anything different. Producers complain that labels won't take anything that is different. Labels complain that they can't get anything different from the artists. The artists complain that their producers won't let them try anything different. It is insane to me. That is my point.

When you sit around in the middle of all this and then hear a bunch of songwriters come in with these "blame everybody else for something" songs, it just kind of makes me hit the wall. My role is to try to help people see the entire playing fielda and then show some ways to access that playing field. It may not always work, but Lord it beats the alternative.
I sit around and watch the world complain. I hear from every corner of the globe how terrible things are. Then I sit back and just about go nuts when all there is from songwriters (who are really the only one's I care about) this constant drumbeat of negative songs, about negative subjects, about how terrible things are. It is just total overload for me.

I don't know, and have never known what to do about that. But I do know what I do, and it is what Rand Bishop was talking about at the start of one of these threads. Being positive and working hard.
Every day I try to work at something. I look at these and other boards and see what people are talking about and offer insights when it fits. I work with a variety of people on their songs and approach, work with my publishing and plugger contacts, work on demos, build as much positive as I can and write songs. One of my clients was just terribly frustrated about his daughter moving back home after getting pregnant and making poor choices. But he was glad to have her back and is really getting into being a Grandfather. The song we wrote, was about that yet was a very commercial country song. And he has gotten his emotions into something that is tangible. Hopefully he will take that into other songs he writes and apply the same formula. Make it Real and you get better songs.
Today, I am working on a jingle for a friend's business. And talking to you. Next week,the artist that I have been working with will very probably sing a two million dollar record deal. And I have almost all the songs on his project for now. Now I am not saying this to say "Look at what I have done, nah nah nah nah nah!" That is not it. None of this has enormous amounts of money coming into my bank account. I am doing it to say that my entire life is about trying to practice what I preach. I can't change or fix the record labels or radio or the fans.
I can apply what I have learned to help others, help shape things one song at a time and constantly move forward. That is all I can do. I concede your point about the music industry. you are right. It is dumb. But nobody forced me to come here. There are no black and blue marks on my arms from doing so. And if I can't compete, I don't need to try to do this.
It is just all in the way you look at it.

Great to get to know you Ray. You are a very wise young man.

MAB

Ray, My man,

I remember the Patsy Cline thing. That was a hoot. he was wanting to get Patsy to sing a duo with some modern singer. He did say "Let's call Patsy Cline and get her in" and one of his assistants said "She's been dead for 40 years."
And as silly as that sounds it actually has happened. None of us at the time wanted to admit it but we all knew what he was talking about. Natalie Cole had done a duet with her Dad Nat King Cole, on "Unforgettable" and was a huge hit. Then Hank Jr. found some old footage of his Dad's on a song called "There's a Tear in My Beer" and they did a video and a single and it did well.
The artist at Capitol at the time they wanted to do the Patsy Cline thing was John Berry. John, who was not selling a lot of records wanted out of his deal because he didn't like the way Garth Brooks had taken over the company. Garth had refuse to release his latest record until they fired Scott Hendricks and the staff that did not promote the "No Fences" record. That one had "only" sold 4 million copies. Garth wanted this guy from New York (who I can't even remember his name, that is how fast they come and go) who had promoted his Central Park concert.
They fired Scott and he went to another label (again, I can't even remember which one, but I had an audition with him on an act I was involved in at the time where he told me there was another duo ahead of me in line, just like I was doing, called Montgomery Gentry) And we all had felt Scott was mistreated. So when the New York guy said that, we all played it up. but he really didn't mean it that way.
What happened was Garth's next album sold 9 million copies and everybody was vindicated. John Berry, went to Lyric Street, and did a record, Wildest Dreams that I had the Title cut on. Then John quit that record company and decided to go to Word records, so he could do a Christian album. And WORD was and still is in the building Capitol built and Garth didn't like so they never moved into.
If this ain't the most insestuous business alive, I don't know what is. I am having trouble remembering all the details. That was about 12 years ago. But it is fun to look at how really silly all this stuff is. That is why I don't really sweat too much of this. Thanks for the memories Ray.

MAB

HEY!

The label Scott Hendricks went to was VIRGIN!!! I have a music trivia book in my girlfriend's bathroom and found it there. How's that for too much information?!!!!

MAB

Hi John,

I listened to your song "Could It Be" and really loved it!! I think it "could be". I hear it as having much potential. As good as you are, I think it might help if you had it done in a second demo as well. I'm hearing a cross between an oldie and a country genre which I really like. Best of pitching.

Best,
Lynn
P.S. I'd like to read the full lyrics but couldn't find them

You can write on an island being all by yourself,
You can write with a village or with just someone else,
Whatever your fancy, whatever works best,
As long as the song is a hit, it's success!!!!

Hi Marc,

Nice to meet you and your smile. I like your candid take on the realities of the music business and how you keep an upbeat attitude. I just learned alot. Thanks for being so willing to share such a wealth of information. For someone who has been on the music/Nashville scene for twentysome years (if my math is correct), I'm sure you can speak with authority on the subject and we appreciate any and all sage advice. Take care.

Thanks again,
Lynn

The label head that allegedly make the Patsy Cline statement was Pat Quigley. For some reason, it must have seemed like a good idea at the time to hire a guy whose previous success was running Swisstime, the maker of Swatch and Omega watches.

Pat Quigly. That is RIGHT! Whatever happened to him? He had done the Garth Central Park thing as I recall. Correct me if I am wrong. Twenty years in this town plays Hell with the memory and the people. I do well to remember who I am dealing with now, much less the power players from 10-15 years ago. I knew it was some kind of coorporation but didn't know it was Swisstime.

MAB

We have Pat Quigley to thank for getting Keith Urban to go solo. Quigley had also been involved in marketing beer and ski equipment before Garth Brooks hand picked him to helm "Garth's label."

I can't remember which Capitol artist it was that Quigley suggested pairing up in a duo with Patsy Cline.

Anyway, this thread evidently has a lot of grousing about the state of the business, or of songwriting, because record companies don't seem to release great songs and radio sucks, and all that kind of victim oriented posturing.

Listen to Marc-alan, you guys. Anybody who expects show-biz to be "fair" or "enlightened" should go back and watch "Amadeus." There has always been pap in the marketplace; and there has always been inspired, great music.

All we can do is put on a sunny disposition and keep pluggin' at it. As Marc knows well, nobody wants to be around a downer. And, since the friends you make today are likely to be the people who are gonna kick open the doors for you tomorrow, it makes sense to be enthusiastic and chipper and fun to be around.

We get to make stuff up. That's a privilege in and of itself. Any success or recognition we achieve is gravy. And, there ain't no guarantees. So, smile, suck it up and do the work. Every minute you get to spend writing, recording or performing a song is one you don't have to spend layin' bricks. Halleluia for the creative process!

Make stuff up! What a title. you ought to write that. Right on the mark as usual Rand.

M

Rand,

I just wanna say this....YOU ROCK bro!!! I love your outlook. I agree with Marc B....You're right on the mark.

I'm not a country guy. Many of you know I work in the pop (top 40) spectrum, but that's not an easy road either.

It's fun....I've made some headway, but the road definitely has not reached its' end.

Keep listening to Marc Barnette, he knows whats up.

Gregory Watton
THE SENATE
www.myspace.com/prosongwriter
www.myspace.com/thesenatellc

THIS is why I love this place

Nice to meet you Marc. Thank you for sharing your practical insights! My main life is in business. I've seen your main points many times in "mainstream business". So much depends on networking, attitude, personality, persistence and showing up.

And thanks for the update Greg...and I like the news....keep it up!

thanks for all the great info. another for the 'print, re-read' file.