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I am totally confused regarding using Roman numerals versus Arabic numbers for designating chords in charts. I am writing some charts for a very important gig and want them read correctly! Two guys I know who will play, their charts are plain numbers (Arabic, regular numbers). But on forums, posters say, no, the correct way is Roman numerals. What is the usual in Nashville? (I want to learn the right way.)

Whatever the answer is, I have a few more questions. Thanks.

We stopped using Roman numerals in the Nashville studios about 400 a.d.

Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

Duke,

I have a little more time now. Yep, numbers almost exclusively in Nashville. After over 25 years of sessions here, I've only seen standard notation a couple of times, and I've never seen Roman numerals on a session (at a few writer's nights, though).

In college, we used Roman numerals exclusively. After college, I haven't used them, and other than the few, above mentioned writer's nights, the only times I've had to deal with them is when figuring out which Super Bowl it is.

Post back and let us know any questions you have, always happy to help.

Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

Thank you for replying, I knew you would know. On another forum, they told me I was wrong when I reported that the two guys I know around here who use numbers (both of which are pro musicians), use plain numbers. And then proceeded to say why Roman numerals are superior. Some of which made sense. But, if people are used to plain numbers, that is the norm and what the eye is used to.

So, now that we've cleared that up...

How do you designate a 7th chord? Exactly how do you write it? Say, a G7 in C major. 57? 5-7? When I write by hand, I just put the 7 up in superscript, which I can't type here. As for when typing the chords, I dunno.

Second, how do you designate a minor? Like a Dm in key of C? Do you just write a 2 or a 2- or 2m? My feeble brain says that 2m is best, as to alleviate any chance of misinterpretation. (They may not catch the hyphen or dash or whatever you call that.)

Third, how do you designate a major chord which is normally a minor in that key? Such as a D-major chord in key of C. 2 or 2maj or 2M or just what? (EDIT: I think I read where you said a number by itself is assumed to be major. If you put a hyphen after it, that means minor. Contrarily, I have read where if it says a 2, it is assumed to be minor. Maybe the writer erred.)

EDIT: Fourth, how do you write a flat? Do you write is like b7 or 7b? (What is written first?)

Lastly, do you use sharps in charts as well as flats? Someone said something about not using sharps in charts, which confused me.

Thanks, I appreciate the help. I don't have time to rehearse much with them for this important gig.

[This message has been edited by DukeWill (edited 03-15-2006).]

Duke,

I'll bump my posts on the subject, they should answer all your questions and more. Also, here is the website of my friend Chas Williams, he is author of the number one book on the subject.

http://www.nashvillenumbersystem.com/index.html

Later tonight, I'll get online and try to answer your questions, but I've only got a little time now.

Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 03-15-2006).]

Mike, at least I did try before I asked. I did read three of your old posts but I did not find the info I asked about. But I did glance through it rapidly, so, I might have missed it. (I've also read these before.) As for the book, when moola permits, I think I'll get that.

Duke,

I'll try to do this fast so you can have some answers right away.

How do you designate a 7th chord? Exactly how do you write it? Say, a G7 in C major. 57? 5-7? When I write by hand, I just put the 7 up in superscript, which I can't type here. As for when typing the chords, I dunno.

Answer: I never type number charts, I write them with my purple mechanical pencil and put the seven as a superscript. There are programs for charts that superscript, but I can write a chart faster than program or type one. If I had to type one, I'd try to superscript it, but I've never typed a real chart, just the examples in the posts, and the same problem cropped up. I just don't type charts.

Second, how do you designate a minor? Like a Dm in key of C? Do you just write a 2 or a 2- or 2m? My feeble brain says that 2m is best, as to alleviate any chance of misinterpretation. (They may not catch the hyphen or dash or whatever you call that.)

Answer: We use a minus sign, it's faster when you are writing a chart real time to write a minus sign than an m. An m will work, but we almost never see that, rather a minus sign.

Third, how do you designate a major chord which is normally a minor in that key? Such as a D-major chord in key of C. 2maj or 2M or just what?

Answer: We simply don't use the minus sign, all numbers are major unless designated otherwise.

EDIT: Fourth, how do you write a flat? Do you write is like b7 or 7b?

I, personally, write the flat before the number as in flat-seven, this way the flat won't be accidentally read as a six, as in a seven sixth chord. Remember, I write in pencil. Maybe one out of every twenty sessions or more do we see a typed or computer generated chart. A lot of charts, though, put the flat or sharp behind the number.


Lastly, do you use sharps in charts as well as flats? Someone said something about not using sharps, which confused me.

Answer: Many times people use sharps because they are guitar players and the guitar is sharp key friendly, but in pure music, the key of A flat is easier to read and write than the key of G#, for example: Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab as opposed to G# A# B# C# D# E# F##(double sharp) G#. We use sharps usually when referring to a note in a chord as in: minor seven sharp five, or two major with a sharp four in the bass. Generally, though, in a key, we'll call chords 1 b2 2 b3 4 5 b6 6 b7 7 1

Thanks, I appreciate the help. I don't have time to rehearse much with them for this important gig.

Answer: no problem. By the way, most of these are answered in the posts, I'll let you find which ones All kidding aside, please feel free to ask any and all. I like to answer questions or I wouldn't be a forum moderator.

Good luck with the gig.
Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 03-15-2006).]

Thanks. I was editing my post while you were answering but you answered it anyway.

Why do you use a purple pencil? Pencil, I understand but why purple? That's pretty unusual, is there a reason?

Because that's the color of the plastic sleeve on my Pentel .09 mechanical pencil, of course. It's my favorite pencil. If you look at the cover of my album on CDbaby, I drew it with that pencil. I have it in my shirt pocket now.

All the Best,
Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

Welllllllll.
I saw this bloke.
Down on the row.
He looked like he.
Was in the know.
he had a purple pencil.
Held so firmly.
He looked like a purple pencil.
Lover to me.
See if Sheb wants a collab on this one Mike.
Graham


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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

I thought you meant purple LEAD! I've seen red, I've seen blue, but not purple, haha. That would certainly be odd. I thought maybe you have some secret lead that glows in the dark or something.

BTW, I didn't know they made .9mm lead. I'll have to check that out. I have always used .5mm but recently, found a .7mm among my brother's stuff and liked it for writing charts because it makes a much wider line. A .9mm would be even bigger! (Easier to read... and I don't like having to sharpen regular pencils. Like you, I like mechanical pencils.)

Duke,

Yes, I have large lead in my pencil. And my pencil is purple.

Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

I think all the foregoing explains why country musicians are prone to one-syllable chords, and eschew fruity stuff like minors, sevenths, usw.<g>

Joe
www.soundclick.com/bands/7/joewrabek_music.htm

Joe, at a session just yesterday we cut a version of "Unforgettable" all written in numbers. In the past I've seen number charts for "Take the A Train," "The Christmas Song," and "Moonlight in Vermont" among many other fruity songs. By the way, is "Yes, We Have No Bananas" a fruity song?

All the Best,
Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

What's this?

1maj7 2-7 1maj7/3 2-7
1mj7 (5-7 1) 4 b7

An avocado?



Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

Mike, I'd say it was a kiwi, myself (but remember, I have no formal musical training). I just would find four flats really depressing--sorta down under, as it were.

Joe
www.soundclick.com/bands/7/joewrabek_music.htm

So, Joe, what do you get when you drop a piano down a mine shaft?

A flat minor.

Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

Hunh. Coulda swore it was "Gee-flat minor." Oh, well--no musical training, y'know. And I gets confused by all them numbers.

Joe
www.soundclick.com/bands/7/joewrabek_music.htm

What do you call this... a point in a song where all instruments stop abruptly. For emphasis at end of a verse or chorus. Like, if I am playing guitar, I'll hit the last chord and then mute all strings. Then start playing again when the song kicks off again.

I am writing this on a chart as a period with a hat over it. "." with a "^" over it.

If I am to let the chord ring instead of mute the strings, I write a period with a semi-circle above it instead of the pointy hat. Is this how it should be symbolized?

Also, do you put this symbol above the chord or beside the chord in the chart? (It can get kinda busy-looking if I write it above the chord if my chart is squished up tight with not much room between lines.

I'm full of questions today. Writing charts for next weekend gig and I still don't know what I'm doing. But I'm getting there.

Will this work? For my own purposes, I leave a 1.5" or 2" left margin. I write the chords for each line there. I write the chord in the position it falls in the lyric line. Like if the chord is on beat 1, the chord would be right there at the left margin. If the next chord is at the middle of the lyric line, I write that chord in the middle of the margin. If the next chord changes at the end of the line, it's written at the right edge of the margin.

So, as I'm singing the song, you can see where to change.

Do you think musicians could follow this okay? It's the same principal as a real chart except it's not as exact. But when pressed for time, I wondered if it would work okay with most. If I want to do a song I don't have a chart for yet.

Hi Duke,

An abrupt stop that keeps time, we call a "button" and it usually has a simple black dot over the number. A stop that rings, but keeps time is a diamond, we put a diamond around the number, and a stop that rings but does not keep time (is, rather, brought back in on cue or simply dies out) is called a "bird's eye" named such because the symbol for the fermata looks like an eye, it is a curve over a dot.

The method you describe, putting numbers and such over the lyrics, is not what we use here in Nashville. I'll bump the Number System posts and add here a link to Chas Williams' site where you can purchase his book (the best on the subject...more detailed than our post here).

www.nashvillenumbersystem.com

Other than that, I'd have to see your chart and hear your song to go into more detail, and I really would not have time to listen to MP3's or do any downloading. So, read through the posts and that should answer your questions, if you're stumped, feel free to post back.

All the Best,
Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

Thanks Mike.

I think you said you write the entire chart... I take that to mean you do not just write "verse" again or "chorus" again. This was a question of mine.

I like to make the numbers as big as I can (as tall as I can). So they are legible as can be.

My chart might look like this.

INTRO:
4 5 1

VERSE:
1 1 4 1
1 1 5 1

CHORUS:
4 4 4 4
5 5 1 1

BREAK (same as chorus)

VERSE

CHORUS

OUTRO (same as intro)

You do NOT do it like this? You write out the entire chart, you don't reference already written sections? I think this is what you are saying. Because that is the way I would prefer to do it, if I can make the numbers tall enough.

The reason I would like to write out each section is so the musician can follow it down, down, down, the page. Without having to jump around with his eyes here and there. Just this week, I noticed my duo partner screwing up some and he'd say "My bad, I was in the wrong section."

Do you always fit yours on one page?

How do YOU write augmented? Diminished?

I use "+" sign for augmented. For diminished, I write a little "o" to the right of the number like a "degree" symbol (as in Fahrenheit).

I had this chord -- b3*7

Flat three diminished seventh.

{I can't type a degree symbol, the asterisk is the substitution.)

My duo guy didn't know what it was. I guess I will have to start always writing out "dim." that sure gets busy when you're trying to write with a felt tip.

ANOTHER QUESTION:

Do you space out your chords so that are equidistant apart, denoting time? I have been doing this. It seems you could use pre-ruled graph paper or something and make this easier. If not, this just doesn't matter or what? In your post on "time," you said each number means a measure. If two chords, put in underline or a box or parentheses. But do you space out everything evenly?

If each chord was exactly one beat of two beats or whatever, your chart numbers would all line up vertically. Is this what you do?

This is what I have been doing but yesterday my friend showed me a chart he was proud of. I'm sure it will work BUT there was zero apparent horizontal time. The chords for a lyric line were all run together with all of them separated by a "/" -- a slash.

I don't know, that seems that could be problematic if you wanted to write a slash chord (a chord with a certain note in the bass.) Or is this how you do it?

If a song is VERY easy, I might write repeat signs or write V C V etc., but if it's difficult, or especially if I'm writing for a live show rather than a session (I find more pressure at a live performance, and even more so at a live radio or tv show, because you can't "punch."), I write it all out.

The post about the number system part 3:

http://www.justplainfolks.org/ubb/Forum60/HTML/000004.html

at the ninth paragraph, explains how we delineate time.

Different players write a chord with a specific bass note in different ways. I print my charts out by hand, with my purple Pentel .09 mechanical pencil (the best inexpensive mechanical pencil made [are you listening, Pentel? I sure could use a case of 'em.]) So I just write the chord number directly over the bass number. I don't use the slash for the same reason you mention. However, I have no idea how one would type that, or how any of the programs for the number system handle that. I chart by hand.

All the Best,
Mike

P.S. If someone put a gun to my head and forced me to type a number chart, or gave me a LOT of money to do it (the ONLY two reasons why I would type one rather than do it by had) I'd simply write 2dim for a Supertonic Diminished...in your example, I'd call it a b3dim7 That is, if someone put a gun to my head or gave me a LOT of money.


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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music



[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 07-20-2006).]

Mike, where do you buy those pencils? I looked, couldn't find. I've never seen .9mm pencil. I've used .5mm often, some .7mm. Seriously, why PURPLE? Why not black?

Hopefully, my last questions for awhile.

Key of G. Say you going from Am to C on the guitar. The Am is a 2m and the C is a 4. On the in between beat, I strike the A-string on fret 2. That's a B note. I guess it's Am/B. This is a very audible "change" as I play this. I just wrote Am for my duo guy but this confused him, he was wanting to change the chord (since he could hear something change). Would you show this or leave it as Am? (2m)

AND... do you always make a chart fit one page?

[This message has been edited by DukeWill (edited 07-20-2006).]

I buy my purple Pentel .09 mechanical pencils at Office Depot. They are in aisle 4 on the left, about half way down the aisle on the right hand side at about eye level. The .09 Pentel's are all purple, they use a flush trigger to advance the lead rather than a screw action at the muzzle end or pressing the breech end.

Your other questions are:

"Key of G. Say you going from Am to C on the guitar. The Am is a 2m and the C is a 4. On the in between beat, I strike the A-string on fret 2. That's a B note. I guess it's Am/B. This is a very audible "change" as I play this. I just wrote Am for my duo guy but this confused him, he was wanting to change the chord (since he could hear something change). Would you show this or leave it as Am? (2m)

AND... do you always make a chart fit one page?"

My answers,

Guitarists often play a bass run while keeping a chord down, as in your example of walking the bass up from Am to C by playing a B note. The ordinary harmonization of this run is Am G/B C...Am, G with a B in the bass, then C. I'd write it, in the key of G: 2- 1/3 (here, I'd write a one directly over a three, but because you can't do that typing, which I find inferior to writing with my purple Pentel .09 mechanical pencil, I am reduced to showing the bass note after a slash!) 4.

I write all my charts on one page unless they don't fit. Usually songs that don't fit on one page are either too long, very fast with a lot of changes, or medleys.

And now, for Graham, I just now read your lovely poem. Unfortunately, Sheb Wooley, writer of the wonderful song, "The Purple People Eater" passed away some time ago.

All the Best,
Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 07-20-2006).]

Thanks for your replies.

You said, here, I'd write a five directly over a seven

You lost me there. I can't figure out what you mean by that. I understand 1/3, that's the G/B.

If you check back, you'll see I corrected that. I was thinking in the key of C, for some reason

Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

Durn, FINALLY, I know what you are talking about. The pencil. It's purple PLASTIC, not purple lead. For the life of me, I could not figure out why you'd want to use purple lead. The lead is just plain black, right? Anyway, I bought a couple and yes, this will work nicely. The lead is broad enough to leave a legible mark. Plus, a decent size eraser. Sure beats writing in ink and getting 80% of it perfectly written and then you make a mistake and have to scratch over it or white it out. Pencil, just erase it.

That's right. Good solid piece of graphite (how'd they ever get calling it lead? It's as light as a fishing rod!) that doesn't break easy, prints as black as a priest's pants, erases cleaner than the church steps, and copies easily as a college kid stealing music for his IPod.



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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

Thought we should move this up for folks. = )

Thanks, Brian, It would be nice to somehow stick the number system threads at the top. If not, we can keep bumping now and then.

Hey guys...I'm new to posting on the forum, and I know this is an older thread, but I thought I might try to answer a question if I may...

I teach a music theory/producing class at a local college, and the biggest question that I run across is "how do we write 7th chords for number charts?" Most everyone I know uses a superscript when they write them by hand, but that can get confusing and it's not really practical when typing. The accepted method is to add "x" or "dom" between the chord and the extension. For example, in the key of A Maj, an E7 would be 5dom7 or 5x7. The same is true for further extensions like 9, 11, and so on.

We also type all of our number charts at my church and post them electronically for our praise team, and that method of notation keeps down confusion pretty well.

Here's an article about the Nashville Number System:
http://www.articlesbase.com/music-articles/the-nashville-number-chart-system-demystified-893035.html

Hi Clay,

Welcome to JPF and thanks for posting.

I like the idea of using "dom" for the dominant seven or nine or whatever when typing. It sure does help in that case.

I checked out the article. It is perfectly sound music theory, the only thing I would point out is about the harmonized scale. We don't assume the 2, 3 and 6 are minor or the 7 is diminished. The only thing we assume is that a number with no other instruction is a major chord. We build the chord based on the degree of the scale. In A, for example, 1 2 5 5 would be Amaj, Bmaj, Emaj, Emaj. To write out Amaj, Bmin, Emaj, Emaj, we would write 1 2- 5 5. Either way is "right," that's just the way, for whatever reason, that we do it here.

All the Best,
Mike

Mike,

Thanks for the correction and tip! I guess that's just the way I was taught. But you know those college professors...can't trust 'em!

Thanks, too, for being so welcoming!
--CCB

This goes well with the other numbers questions/lessons.