JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum The Votes are all in...

My question's been answered. Please ignore!

[This message has been edited by sweetsong (edited 11-01-2002).]

Hi..all...

well... I think..in some cases melody/lyrical
content...is going to be genre dependent., meaning......WEE children's;
Many kids...go click....if it's just melody only......
In the case of children's music..., I feel
it's combination ...with maybe for the YOUNGEST children, lyric's taking priority...
Some times...NOT ALWAYS....but i've heard some pretty..run of the mill melodies (imo) for kids songs...but if the SINGER...can engage
the children...with the lyrical content...
and interaction.....WOW...the kids are thrilled....(short term..performances)..
BUT in order..to have..a long running
CLASSIC children's song...I believe..that melody
has to be there.

In other genre's...I think it's more of a marriage.....of Melody and lyrics...I've been told...that "in general"..folks....normally don't scrutinize
every word...in songs....(like many times we will do in order to keep improving on the craft we love...songwriting)
but I personally love what WORDS do to a
Great Melody.

Kaley

Equally important are:

Melody (it must move you and/or be memorable...hopefully, both) AND
Vocal performance (If the singer is "gawdawful", you won't be listening to much of the song! On the other hand, we DO have Bob Dylan, Tom Petty and Tom Waitts with some amazingly bad voices--yet amazing songs! But just TRY to push a demo with a bad singer on the recording--good luck!!).

Next is hook--even a bad production or a simplistic rendition won't usually sabotage a really good hook (see paragraph below on "story"). But a really good hook has been known to "put over" some otherwise awful songs.

Music is next 'cause that's what flavors the stew that is the completed song. Without good music (a tasty groove, engaging rhythm, and a compelling chord progression), it's all just blanc mange, baby!

Story IS important, but not near as much as the "feel" created by the first four elements cited above. I heard a song recently called, "Cool Guitar" where the hook is "I'm gonna' sell the b**ch's car and buy myself a cool guitar." Though not a GREAT song, it's very memorable: What musician couldn't laugh about getting revenge on an ex- who treated him badly, by borrowing the offending mate's vehicle and selling it to buy that "dream" guitar (PA, studio toy, name-your-musical-addiction here)? What a riot!

Last on my list are structure and detail. Why? If the first five elements above are good enough, the last two aren't near as necessary. They will, however, help a weaker song to shine more brightly.

I feel that production is a separate element that shouldn't necessarily be lumped into the "music" category--'cause it's an eight-legged octopus all its own, if you want to get down to discussing the nitty gritty of what it can do TO or FOR a song!

FINAL DISCLAIMER: Really GREAT instrumental music can bring us to tears--withOUT lyrics (as cited earlier, many classical pieces--or your favorite violin, flute, guitar, or whatever soloist [mine is guitarist Neil Zaza]). Music naturally becomes of prime importance for that type of "song". (I use quotes here because, for me, listening to instrumental music is more like embarking on an emotional journey; with a song (with lyrics), I feel I'm on a quick visit with an old or new friend ("You've got 3 minutes--spill it!"). In instrumental music, there will still usually be a MUSICAL hook to take the place of a lyrical one. In addition, tones and instrumentation begin to be more important here as well...but that's a whole 'NOTHER can o' worms, maybe better suited for a different discussion...!

OWWWW! My head hurts!!!


------------------
www.mp3.com/crisisrocks
www.mp3.com/dianatyler

[This message has been edited by Diana Tyler (edited 11-01-2002).]

 
Song:
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English sang; akin to Old English singan to sing Date: before 12th century
1 : the act or art of singing
2 : poetical composition
3 a : a short musical composition of words and music b : a collection of such compositions
4 : a distinctive or characteristic sound or series of sounds (as of a bird or insect)
5 a : a melody for a lyric poem or ballad b : a poem easily set to music

Insects,birds, whales etc. have distinct melodic vocalizations with repeated patterns, but aside from that, a song involves language. It is vocal music, whether sung to a distinct melody, chanted, "rapped" or "pattered. A song does not require musical instruments; it requires singing.

So, IMO, lyrics should never be placed at the end of any list when it comes to importance in a song.

A song is the vocalization of words set to melody which narrows the components into 2.

Vocalized Words
Melody(or rhythmic recitation such as rap or nonwestern chant, because the word inflections and tones by themselves have built in melodic sound.)


Production, instrumentation, orchestration, style, quality etc. are just optional variables. A song does not need these to be a song.

It seems to me the question that is really being asked is: "What makes a song most enjoyable?"
That would bring all those variables into play.

Some people don't care about the lyrics. To them lyrics are just a vehicle for the voice. Some people don't care for vocalizations at all, they prefer instrumentals. Some people don't appreciate the intricacy of melody. The words are what move them. Some people just want a strong beat so they can move their bodies to it, and don't give a fig about melody or lyrics. Some people are delighted by a beautiful voice. People who exclusively enjoy opera, chant and four part harmony may fall into this category. etc. etc. Some musicians don't care about the lyrics or the vocals, they are interested in the melody and orchestration and the opportunity to enjoy or display virtuosity.


For ME to completely enjoy a song, I need to hear a balance of what I consider to be excellence in both lyrics and melody. Otherwise, I consider it mediocre or worse. A great lyric can make a mediocre melody passable. A great melody can make a mediocre lyric passable. But if they are both mediocre. P.U.

HOWEVER, if there is a melodic passage combined with a lyrical phrase that I really like despite the rest of the song, I may put up with the mediocrity or worse, just to enjoy that little bit. (I wouldn't BUY a recording like that, though.)

If I have never heard the song before, the combination of lyric and melody in the first few lines that I hear, whether it's the chorus or the verse, has to be outstanding or I will stop listening. Unless I am forced to listen to it (like when my daughter is listening to her favorite radio station), I may never hear the little bit that I would have liked.


The style of the music or the orchestration either has little effect on me, or is just icing on the cake. The song is the thing.

I am content with an average singer as long as the song itself is pleasing to me. Great vocal qualities are just an enhancement of the song (to me). I'll listen to a voice that I enjoy but I will most likely stop before it's finished if the song is truly inferior. I feel the same way about brilliant musicians. I think: Hmmm, great singer/musician, crummy song. Ho, hum, call me when you get a better song. I don't care about virtuosity unless it's within the context of the song or in the case of musicians, the composition.


Re: Lyricists and music.

I agree that a fundamental understanding of simple music theory is a great asset to a lyricist.

Too often, lyricists assume that a composer can correct meter and structure irregularities with melody. Sometimes it can be corrected, but often it cannot and it impairs the melody. Having a "head tune" is not enough, really. Even though I compose and play an instrument, sometimes my head tunes are not consistent because subconsciously I will alter a head tune without realizing it to accommodate inflection and irregular meter.

An understanding of some basic notation and music theory (beats to a measure, note values, keys etc.) and learning to use a notation program is a great visual help to both composers and lyricists, especially when it comes to verses. Once the melody of the verse is created , the subsequent verses can be lined up and checked for fit. The lyricist and the composer can then work together in deciding where changes can be made.

Lyricists and composers both need to be aware of the complexities of vocalization and not assume a good singer can cover deficiencies either. A good range, expressiveness, phrasing and vocal quality can bring out a new dimension in a song but they can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

There is a big difference between reciting aloud and singing aloud. Just because a song can be read aloud well, doesn't mean it will sing well. Some vowels, diphthongs and consonants allow the singer to vocalize properly while others interfere and nearly shut down the whole process. Some words look quite ordinary on the page but when sung take on a whole new dimension. So a lyricist and a composer both need to sing what they create. The singing doesn't need to be of performance quality, but the words do need to be vocalized to see if they work. I have changed whole lines in my lyrics and compositions because of that factor. The composer also needs to be aware of the voice when it comes to intervals and note values. What sounds good on an instrument doesn't necessarily sound good with the voice. Sometimes something that is sung, sounds better than when it's played instrumentally.

Words and music work together and become a new entity. A song.

I actually edited this, several times. It was much longer. Don't even get me started on what makes a good lyric.

My humble two cents. As soon as I buy a cd or tape. I go and read the lyrics first. I think the lyrics do get lost in the music. Bruce Springsteen my favorite singer had this case with Born In The U.S.A.. After the Born tour he never performed Born In The USA with a band till the last tour in 99 200. It was him, his guitar and harmonica. I subscribe to a Bruce digest and several fan magazines. From reports Bruce has turned Dancing In The Dark into a rocker now for The Rising tour. He also did this song without a band before.

I think it would be a great experience for all if someone would post some lyrics by some well knowen singer songwriters and see what people would reply about them. Not the songs that were hits though. I think people would be shocked who seem to think everything has to be by the book. At some point the person who wrote the song would be revealed.

As for TV guide this week how sad that Twain is on the cover and Not Merle.
Later,
Carl

Well, it's perfectly obvious to me. The music is more important. I mean, who dances to lyrics. You can hum a tune and not know the words.

Or wait, what good is achy breaky heart without the words? It has five notes in the melody and two chords, but add those lyrics and you have a world class...uh...never mind. But rap! Rap has no melody and only sometimes chords, yet it's music...isn't it?

Beethoven didn't write words to his music, and he was deaf? I mean he couldn't even hear it! He could have written words that he could have read along with the orchestra. Instead he put some dots on the page and watched a bunch of guys get red faces and wave their arms around.

We can argue the chicken and the egg, the tree and the forest, and all those dancing angels, but the whole thing comes down to opinion. I personally weight the music a little more than the lyrics. I find myself whistling pop tunes, but I never walk around reciting the words.

Turn the bass up in the mix.

Mike

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music

Yeah, Mike, 'cuz you're one of those musician guys, I talked about, LOL.

I sure don't want to listen to a singer get up and hum to the music.

It doesn't matter which comes first, a song isn't a song unless the words are written to be sung or unless words are added to the musical composition.

A lot of rap music is basically recitation to a beat and people dance to that. Except for the tuneable kind, drums only express rhythm and people dance to that all over the world.

Please remember that a lot of really great melodies were created by writing to the lyric. A point I forgot to mention.

Aaaaaand what about the novelty songs that make us laugh. The words are what are making the song enjoyable.

A great song has great lyrics and great music. It is balanced.

JeanB

PS: Beethoven didn't write words to his music but he put music to words.

"As early as 1792 he had a notion to write music for the Ode to Joy by Friedrich Schiller, an eminent Revolutionary sympathizer. " …Henri Feldman

Both Beethoven and Tchaikovsky put music to the Ode To Joy by Shiller

Beethoven also was inspired by Goethe and put several of his poems to music.

[This message has been edited by JeanB (edited 11-02-2002).]

Hi Folks,

Let me wade in. If we are taking about songs and not just "tunes" or melodies and the like, don't we assume the communication of some feeling, meaning or message?

The following is my opinion on this---

F#m Bmaj F#m(sus) Db etc......

Did you get my meaning?

Ya'll can thank me later for not making my point stronger by posting the whole message this way (chuckle)

On a serious note, we are still figuring out how the human brain works, but one thing is clear: most people have trouble remembering musical intervals, but when you attach word cues, then they can. eg "My Dog Has Fleas", making a song out of it.

Before ever being written down, the enormous Buddhist canon was handed down accurately word for word for over 1500 years by monks who chanted or sung it at yearly meetings. My point is they did not just recite it.

And in a well written song the lyrical meaning and the musical feeling enhance and amplify each other in a magical synergy.

It is this magic that makes me love songwriting!

Have a good one

Peter Taos NM

[This message has been edited by eyesound (edited 11-01-2002).]

What DianneandJeanandPete said!

How many of the Psalms can you hum?

As Peter pointed out, much of the traditional poetry of the world, from Beowulf to the ballads of Burns, were sung. If memory serves (a toss-up these days), even the works of Homer were recited to music. But the important point to remember here is that the music was just a vehicle for the lyrics.

It was common, with songs like The Battle Hymn of the Republic and The Star-Spangled Banner, to fish around for a popular tune (i.e., a "drinking song") that would carry the words. We know those tunes today only because they were married to those words. Same with songs like Danny Boy and many traditional church songs.

My purpose here is not to belittle music, but to advocate for a little more respect for lyrics. I think the reason so much emphasis shifted to the music (reversing the trend of centuries) is due to the marketing value of the music. The tune is what catches your attention. But the lyric is what makes the song endure.

The A&R guys don't care about endurance; they are looking for hit material, and the name of the game is getting there first and fast for the five minutes of fame the fans will grant them.

The song needs to have a "hook" to get the listener's attention. While I believe that it's generally true that the hook is melodic, it can also be lyrical or rhythmic.

"Who let the dogs out?"

That's a lyrical hook. I know it sucks, but nevertheless. Let me give you a better example (quoting from memory, so apologies to purists):

"Living on the road, my friend,
was supposed to keep you free and clean.
Now you wear your skin like iron,
your breath's as hard as kerosene."

I don't know about you, but I have to hear the rest of that song when I hear a line like that. Actually, that song has multiple hooks, because it's got a great chorus and great lines. But the opening melody, while good, is just good folksinging, not a stunning melody. It's the lyric that catches your ear there.

On the other hand, it's a lyric that tends to be very confusing and would likely be rejected by most professional songwriters as "having some good lines, but needing work." It's unlikely that it would have gotten so popular without that tune.

But on the OTHER hand, I think the appeal of the song was due to its message, not its music. One of its great selling points was what I like to call its "attitude" (an element that I would add to Brian's list). In this case, it was the outlaw mystique. And that was conveyed in part by the guy who made it famous, Willie.

So there you have a convergence of many factors making a hit song, and I don't think you can really say it could have made it without all those elements in place.

But I think the song endures because of what it had to say. I think that tune without those words would be vapor by now.

And guess what? It was a great song long before it was a hit song. And that is the point that I'm actually trying to get to. What I have been urging is that the formula-writing approach that tends to dominate songwriting circles can be limiting, and it can cause people to reject songs because they don't fit what they're already looking for.

What we're dealing with here is not a songwriting kit, where if you take all the pieces and follow the instructions, you are guaranteed to get a hit song. We're dealing with a hit-and-run, and we're trying to figure out what happened. Maybe a better analogy would be this: We're like scientists sitting around pondering how life came from a rock.

So I don't really see this as a music v. lyrics debate, because if it is, we will get nowhere. I don't think that anyone here would argue with the proposition that the best songs are those that marry words and music in marvelous ways.

The other factors that Brian lists are important, too, but you're dealing with a larger issue there than the "song."

I remember talking to a former Columbia Records VP about getting my songs heard, and he said that the first thing he thinks about when he listens to a song is whether it's a "song" or a "record." A song, he said, is something that many different people can sing. It can travel around. It's adaptable to different voices and styles. A record, on the other hand, is something that is dependent on the production, and is not likely to be covered.

Some of the elements on Brian's list fall into the "record" category, I believe, rather than the "song" category.

We should be careful, also, to distinguish between whether we are talking about hit songs or great songs, because, as we all know, those are two very different things. And I suggest we leave the "hit" question up to the real judges, the A&R folks and the public, and set the kinds of standards for ourselves that recognize the value of a song based on its artistic, and not its economic, merits.

Michael R. J. Roth
Songs for Easy Heroes
http://www.hometown.aol.com/easyhero/index.html

P.S. Hey, Peter, I'm your neighbor, from Los Alamos.

Hey EasyHero

Well, for one thing, David could sing em all and play along on that ol harp of his.

Which brings up an interesting point. Those psalms were in Hebrew, which scans very differently from English, and probably fit the metre of the day well.

This has me thinking that when a song is a hit and gets marketed abroad, the lyrics often are translated.

Notice I said the lyrics, not the music. It seems that the lyrics become secondary in this case because some languages don't accomodate the kind of word play that songwriters love to do in English.

To get the same "juice" out of the translation would require rewriting the music to lengthen it, as in the case of the Germanic languages, which I recall take more syllables per idea than English does, forgetting about the word play, or the more formal protocols for gender, etc, found in many languages.

Just a thought to spur the debate.

And my hats off to Townes..Pancho and Lefty was a good song.

Peter Taos NM

Sometimes lyrics are just another sound part to the music.

If you remember the movie "Amadeus" there is a scene where Mozart is explaining the affect he has planned for an operatic vocal octet, eight people singing different lyrics, held together by the music. Eight people talking at once could not be understood, but with music, the voices can be blended together to give this amazing sound.

And, while words convey ideas, they also convey sound, there is rhyme, there is alliteration, there is all kinds of word play (remember Poe's "The Bells").

I like to think words can convey their own "song" without a melody. But certainly, in many instances, they are part of the sound, part of the music. Linda

SHow me a folk ballad that doesn't have words. Show me a Concerto that does. Different strokes for different folks. It's as simple as that. I judged the lyrics from my personal perspective, Everybody else did the same. Since none of us are identical twins there are lots of different approaches to what we thought was good. Why bother trying to understand anyone else's

Warren

Geez...this is a tough one but I'll give it a stab!
I've always thought that the music and lyrics should compliment each other, harmonically and melodically which will hopefully create a mood to draw the listener in. For example, if I play a certain chord progression on the guitar, it tends to affect where I will go lyrically and sometimes with the arrangement and production and sometimes if I have lyrics first, the way they read may suggest things musically/melodically. But, production is only like icing on the cake. and if the cake sucks, well... I've always believed that a song should be able to be played on a piano or guitar with a voice and stand on its own without the aid of production values. But for the average listener because of what they hear on major label CD's and with the constant evolution of technology, their ears are so accustomed to hearing things with production that unless they're really open to listening for songs, if the production isn't there, they'll probably turn it off, which is a shame because they could be missing out on some great songwriting. Try this experiment; go to your local music store that sells sheet music, and pick an N'Sync, Janet Jackson or Britney sheet off the rack, sit down at a piano and try to play it. You'll find that they don't stand alone as great songs on their own, yet these are the kind of "hits" that some people strive to write. I just know one thing and that's to write what I feel and to play as much as possible, whenever and wherever possible. It must be working. I performed in Corning, NY last night which is about a 2 and 1/2 hour drive from where I live in Buffalo and I sold 5 CD's ($10.00 each) at the coffee house I played at and made close to $70.00 in tips for two hours. Since October 4th, I've sold 20 CD's. It shines through if it's real and it's sincere. I truly believe that. Well...just some thoughts.
davey O.

I think we can argue this point forever, and,as a lyricist, I like to believe that my words poetically create a kind of music . I SAY LIKE TO BELIEVE that, but in reality, unless I have a dynamite melody to marry to the lyric, my words will never be heard; there are many examples of poor lyrics that have been elevated to stardom thru great music or a great singer, and many great lyrics lost when matched to a melody that is predicatable and mediocre and not memorable enough for the listener to absorb it. And, it is strange that all my life I have responded to the music rather than words, simply because I love to dance...however, I am more likely to really feel the music when I also can relate to the words. There is an article in the Songwriters Connection ezine discussing whether publishers listen to lyric or words, interesting comments. Jeannette

This whole discussion sits at the heart of my biggest problem in taking a big step toward being a good song writer. I have been involved in instrumental music for 25 years. I have studied music theory, can part-write, arrange, write nice melodies, etc... In the last couple of years I have begun to write lyrics and complete "songs". My problem: I can write nice melodies and my lyric writing is improving all the time - got a few that I even think are good, BUT I can't seem to put the two together. Both are so important IMO and I just don't feel like my "songs" are complete because I am not able to marry the music and the lyric adequately. Anybody got some suggestions on how to learn to do this better? I would appreciate any ideas, resources, etc... --Jeff

wow, this thread just keeps on going!

This is a good lesson. We're a bunch of songwriters and you see the disparity in opinions, imagine the disparity among the general public. Knowing this, I'd recommend that we songwriters leave no stone unturned...if you favor the music, concentrate heavily on the lyric and vice/versa.

Wanting your songs to appeal to as many people as possible, each song must be strong lyrically, melodically, and harmonically. It should be pleasing to both the "lyrics first" listeners as well as the "music first" listeners.



------------------
Mike Dunbar Music

Jeff,

I know hundreds of lyricists who would love to work with someone who is strong with music and needs help with lyrics. They're all over on the Lyric Feedback board! Find some collaborators who are strong lyrically and weak musically and co-write. You can see their work all over the message boards so you can essentially "audition" them before even contacting them.

Have fun!

Brian

Sorry,

I can't help but think of this as the "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" thread...ya know when Richard Dreyfus was trying to communicate with the alien space ship using only notes and tones.

As Pythagoras postulated a few years back, music is a math based science. Notes progress at a fixed rate of vibration intensity.

When the progression is arranged into a combination that is pleasing and harmonious, the sounds cross the barrier from "noise" to "music". Many and varied instruments can be used to make music, including the human voice. I agree with Jean's statement, that the addition of the voice is necessary for the music to become a song. I also think that music is more of a "left brain" function while lyrics are more "right brain".

I believe it was one of our JPF Mentors, Fett, who made the point during a discussion that when the voice is used as an instrument it is always the primary instrument. The other instruments must be submissive to and supportive of the vocal.(ie, don't step on the lyrics.)

Since a song is sold (to a publisher, a label, an artist, the consumer, etc)as a "package deal", I feel it is the arrangement of the package which is most important, and why arrangers make the big bucks.

After that, I feel that tempo, lyrics, melody, et al, are equal in importance.

I was fortunate to spend a little time with John Ford, a gifted songwriter and professional radio consultant, a few weeks ago and he made a very interesting point. He said, "Every genre of music which is popular today....rock, pop, country, blues, etc...all of them, were begun by amateurs.
There are a lot of pros involved now because of the amount of money involved, which is a fairly recent occurance, but all genres were started by amateurs.

Just a few thoughts.

dawg

Hi all,
After some extra thought on this and re-reading through some of the posts, I have to agree with alot of what Easy Hero said especially the distinction between a "record" and a "song". One thing that must be kept in mind is that no one knows what a "hit" song is before the fact. And when it does happen, is it because the song is so great that it can't be denied that climb up the charts or because the record industry is making sure it does? From there, the record industry tries to copycat that success and alot of writers get sucked into trying to write a "flavor of the month" song in the hopes of cashing in. I may never have the commercial success of a Diane Warren, but yet on a certain level, I'm connecting with the audiences I perform for, I'm booked pretty solid through the end of the year, I've always been asked back to places I perform at and I have control over what goes onto my CD's and they sell. To me, what is considered "small potatoes" is just as valid of a success as the big stuff. I think alot of the problem lies in the fact that so many of us get trapped into formulatic and contrived writing styles and into buying songwritng "how to" books because we're seeking validation of our work from a very large, corporate machine industry instead of from ourselves first. As Easy Hero said, this isn't like going out and buying a songwriting kit. To take this idea further, I offer a quote from Susan Gibson, writer of "Wide Open Spaces" from the reference guide book "The Songwriter's Market"... "Songwriting has taught me you gotta realize nobody else can do it like you can. There may be better or worse songwriters, but they aren't like you." And on the time a freind loaned her a songwriting "how to" book she had taken out from the library..."It absolutely said everything I would never say. Teaching people to write songs is like teaching them to paint-there's painting by number in a book, and there's oil painting with gravel and dog hair for added texture. There's no way to study it:you have to practice telling the truth in a way." The lyrics may change for various reasons, she says, "but the heart of a song has to be true. You've gotta mean it and if you mean it, you gotta say it." I couldn't have said it better myself Susan.
Take care y'all,
davey O.

I find that when I hear a new song, if the music is only ordinary (and some of today's biggest country hits are EXTREMELY ordinary), it takes me a long time to learn what the words are, if I bother at all.

On the other hand, a song with a really powerful hook and a passionate melody (Faith Hill's "Cry" is an example) makes me more inclined to pay attention to the lyric. If it sounds really good, I want to know more about the song, even if the lyric happens to not be so strong. So, despite being a lyricist only, I think a strong melody/hook is at the top of such a list.

As far as great SOUNDING songs with weak lyrics, I think many of those songs are written by the performers themselves where a strong lyric is not nearly as important as a great performance.

In country music, on the other hand, the majority of songs are not written by the artist, but by writers who sole purpose is to craft the best song (lyric and music) possible. Alas, even some of those fail to measure up, but please, don't get me started on THAT.

Great thread!

Greg

As a performing singer/songwriter, I have to take issue with the comments made regarding the weakness of lyrics by performers. I think that folks like us are storytellers more so that the folks in staff writer gigs Nashville and L.A. etc... whose primary focus IS the hook. There's nothing wrong with that because the goal is commercial success. However, I have heard the song "Cry" several times and am hard pressed to remember ANYTHING about the song other than the chorus. As far as songs like that being COMPLETE, well written songs, I guess I kind of see them as a soundtrack for the video which is nothing more than an expensive ad for the CD. When I think of performing songwriters such as Melissa Etheridge, Bruce Springsteen, Sting, Indigo Girls and James Taylor to name a few, it's their storytelling lyrics, married with a great melody and music that inspire and make me want to continue on this path as a songwriter, certainly not the Diane Warren's and Max Martin's of this industry. I will certainly give those writer's their due when it comes to commercial songwriting success, however, artistically, I can't even think to place them alongside the writers that I mentioned earlier as well as some of the relatively unknown writers such as Patti Griffin, Buddy & Julie Miller, Sarah Harmer and Jim Cuddy for example. Just my opinions, for what it's worth...
davey O.

have the nominees been announced yet? will they be posted somewhere on this board? i'm curious to see how my top five line up against the nominees...

thanks for the fun, Brian and have a good roadtrip!

Tink

Diane Warren has had many popular songs. Yet few if any of her songs do anything for me when I hear them sung by those who do not write their own lyrics. There are a few exceptions. The same with the songs of Britney and the Backstreet Boys. I would take songs by Joe Grushecky a great Pittsburgh artist, Bruce Springsteen, U2, Southside Johnny, and Little Steven over anything that I hear by the so called experts.
I was reading a magazine yesterday and a programmer said nothing changed with the O Brother soundtrack for country music being played. That they would not play groups like Blue Highway and Rhonda Vincent. I guess what I am saying is radio alienates most people I know. I do not listen to it unless to get the news or local sports. I buy cds tapes mix them and play them. I get the music I want not what is forced down my throat. What was better by far was the internet radio stations but the corporations saw fit to do away with that by charging uncalled for fees.

I was involved with streaming media with the first computer I had. A whopping 66 Mhz. I used to go and set up a Baptist minsters website in my area with his sermons so they could be listened to. He had many visitors to his site. The advantages of streaming media were many. I could listen to songs being played wherever on the same station my friends were or family members. About this time the commercials were said to be for the local market and so could not be advertised. Now you have the current situation with mom n pop radio stations unable to compete with the fee structures. The mom n pop who provided a better choice. Another attempt to provide what I call slop by the so called experts who write and not the singer songwriters. Now I leave with this link .
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/newsarticle.asp?nid=16913&cf=399
Later,
Carl

[This message has been edited by thunder_road_2051 (edited 11-05-2002).]

Hey Thunder Road,
Great story in Rolling Stone...You know, I get it, you get it, but somehow some of these people have been lured and brainwashed into the whole songwriting thing as only having validity if it's coming out of Nashville or one of the major music centers or if it's written by "recipe". Petty is right on about the industry, and I know we'll have people on here pissing and moaning about how he's a hypocrite cause he's a rock star and how dare he bite the hand that feeds him. But the reality of this basic fact is true;if Tom Petty or Bruce Springsteen or similar acts were to come out today, not only would they have a tough time getting signed in the first place, but if they did, they'd be lucky to get to release CD #2. Look at bands like Counting Crows and The Wallflowers for example. Yeah, they're still releasing records, but I can assure you that the money necessary to promote and make their current releases "hits" isn't being thrown at them, but rather at what has been deemed "marketable" acts to turn a quick profit by the record industry. Hell, I don't want marketable, or lunch boxes with the band on them, I don't care if the band is fat and bald or skinny as a rail, I want great songs that move me on some level that I can connect with emotionally. I just can't connect with alot of what's out there that is considered great music simply because it's all over the airwaves. To me alot of popular music is like the old saying about bad food and spaghetti sauce. If you put enough sauce on bad food, it will eventually taste good. And it's seems that that's all that is really going on with music today;alot of bad food masked by sauce(image, marketing etc...). It's funny, but people don't realize there are ways other than than the mainstream radio, MTV and VH-1 to find out about new artists. I find out about things from my peers, college radio, reading (there's a concept) music publications, going to shows and buying a CD if I like the artists performance and once in awhile, by taking a chance on something, no differently than we'd like someone to take a chance on our music. We live in the greatest country in the world, yet in reality we're probably the most culturally and morally bankrupt. Yet, we allow this to continue by saying "yes" to the music industry and it's way of doing business because alot of us feel our music has no validity unless it's accepted by the industry. Well, this thread has taken a slightly different turn!!!!
davey O.

[This message has been edited by 3daveyO3 (edited 11-05-2002).]

As Brian says Jeff. Both the lyrics forums are a welth of lyrics waiting for music.
Maybe though you are opne of those composers who likes the music first. Tha by the way is my preffered way even though i usually write the words first.
If this is the case Song ramp has a Music looking for Lyrics genre section. Is is only a recent additioin but is bearing fruit, and could do with some more music.
Link to SongRamp at foot of this message.
Regards.
Graham

------------------
http://www.songramp.com/homepage.ez?Who=grahamhenderson

Thanks Graham! I will certainly look into it. I appreciate the suggestions I have received from others as well. I want to create and express myself, whether it is lyrics or music. Although ultimately, I want to successfully do both. --Jeff

We've had a lyrics only contest. What about a music only contest?

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music

You mean kind of like the "Instrumental" category in the music awards?

To davey0:

First, my hat's off to you as a singer AND songwriter. Being a lyricist only, I have tons of respect and admiration for you, even while not being familiar with your music.

In looking over my comments, to which you took issue, I sure dropped the ball and didn't make myself as clear as I should have. I can easily add to your notable list of singer/songwriters whom I admire tremendously. Paul Simon, Harry Chapin and Nanci Griffith come to mind.

My point referred to some artists, 70s arena bands come to mind, whose music seemed far superior than their lyrics, which were only a vehicle to give the singer something to do. An example is "Lights," from the first Journey album to feature Steve Perry as lead singer. The first time I heard the song, I was captured by the powerful and emotional singing along with a great hook-laden melody. When I bought the album, as a wannabe lyricist I was dismayed at how shallow and practically non-existent the lyrics were, a few meaningless lines that hardly said anything significant.

Another example is Lindsey Buckingham, a fine guitarist, singer and composer. He writes some of the most memorable and pleasant MELODIES I've ever heard, but on his first solo album, the lyrics were almost embarrassing in their brevity and, IMO, emptiness.

My point is that in SOME instances, lyrics seem to be secondary to the music of some artists. To make a broad generalization like I did was a mistake, and I appreciate your taking issue with it and bringing it to my attention.

As for "Cry," I did say that the great music prompted me to concentrate more on the lyric which I concede doesn't break any new ground.

Greg

[This message has been edited by Greg C. Brown (edited 11-06-2002).]

Well,
I guess by definition, a track without words is an instrumental, but I meant a song in search of words. It's probably unwieldly, but there are a lot of people who write melodies with collaboration in mind, how different is that from a lyrics contest? But I guess now (this is stream of consciousness LOL) that would just be an instrumental also.

Mike

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music

Actually, Mike, I thought about the possibility of rather than a finished instrumental you were thinking of an unfinished song looking for words - which would be different from a finished instrumental - just don't know how you might judge those. Plus, should it be just a melody and rough arrangement or full demo sans vocals? Or maybe just some charts and melodies in black and white?

I'm beginning to think this thread has gone on way too long.

Hey Greg,
If you'd like to find out more about my songwriting, you can hear soundclips from my CD's at the following links...
www.cdbaby.com/daveyo1
www.cdbaby.com/daveyo2
Thanks,
davey O.

Have the top 5 winners been announced yet? I thought the date was Nov. 1st. Did I miss it?

You have not missed it....yet. Keep your pants on,,,paitiance is a vertue,,good things come to those who wait....

This has been an awesome thread. I have been coming back for the past few weeks now and I hope everyone has found this motherlode.

To Brian's question, I have considered it and I would have to contribute my two cents.

Firstly, I agree with the person who said that for a song to work well, all these elements are important.

However, as writers, we have to keep our audience and their expectations and their intent in mind, meaning emphasising one element over another would be driven by our ultimate vision and reason for the song.

If we intend for our song to be a "dance" song, then music, hook and melody take precedence. If it is a "coffee house" song, the audience wants these elements, but they are also more cerebral and want a lyric they can follow, and which carries meaning for them. Dancers don't care for the story, they are too busy dancing and "playing" with their partner.

I have recently seized upon an opportunity to write an intro song for a television series. (Lucky me the executive producer and his wife are my clients) No more than 90 seconds, it must introduce the story, it must hint at the music used in the show, it must appeal to the audience demographic, be memorable etc.

So keeping the audience and intent in mind is a real driving force in deciding what elements of "the song" to emphasize.


But having said this, there is an overiding problem with Brian's question in the sense that a) no one can predict a hit due to the fluid and fleeting nature of the tastes and preferences of the target audience, so those who are the industry can only (and do) make calculated business and artistic decisions based on these tastes and preferences,

and b) the music industry markets "acts" first and music second, so songs tend to become hits because of the acts that perform them ...

Hence the music industry invests in the careers of indivuals and bands, and hopes for several well selling albums.

And going back to my specific situation at hand, even if my "show" lyric\song is good enough, in the end its use is subject to business decisions surrounding eligibility for tax credits.

To be a country's certified and eligible production, a minimum amount of the budget must be spent on the issuing country's citizens and facilities. Hence elements of the film are scored on a points system... so many points for using the issuing country's actor's, directors, post production facilities etc. So if they need a UK lyricist for points reasons, then no matter how good the Canadian lyric is, it will simply receive no consideration.


The conclusion? Keep your audience and "intended acts" in mind in writing, and keep the business decisions in mind in selling.

Someone told me that the list for lyric contest is out, but I have not yet received an email listing who they were. Wasn't there supposed to be a mass email go out to notify all those who voted? Jeannette

Here ya go Jeanette...

http://www.jpfolks.com/MusicAwards/2002JPFLyricNominees.htm

Tink

So no comments after all this hand wringing?

Brian

How about a Whoopie! and Congratulations to the Nominees !!!!!

Congratulations to all nominees! All (but possibly 1 ) are certainly well-deserved. 3 of the 5 I picked made the cut..don't know what that says..but anyway. Good luck to everyone in the running!

Corey

Brian,

I am totally humbled in the company of such GREAT writers... Gotta tell ya, I genuinely am inspired by reading the lyrics nominated. I have learned SO much from the experience of not only entering, but voting and seeing the results. This IS, hands down, THE best writer's board on the net. I say that with total confidence.

Thank YOU, Brian for making it all possible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tink

Congratulations and sincere good wishes to all nominees. This is probably the best organization with the nicest bunch of people I haven't been kicked out of yet.<g>

dawg

Cool!! Every one of my finalists and close calls are on this list. Now ther4e's only going to be one winner, but rest assured, every one of you is in good company!

OUT, OUT FALSE MODESTY!

Again, congrats! Linda

Congratulations Y'all.......PROUD of ya...
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

kk

Just came from reading the nominations and I am totally happy with the way the voting chose 10 of my 12 favorites. The compiling of all of the nominees for lyrics, songs and albums must have been a huge strain on Brian and his crew. I would like to give all of the winners and the people involved in putting this group together a big thank you and a Standing ovation.
CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP
Now good luck to all who made the cut in the finals. I know that one of my favorites will win the lyrics award. YEA ! Idamarie

Congrats to all.

All of my picks made it to the lyric list... congrats to everybody! And the rest of the catagories contain a mind-boggling amount of talent as well-- I recognize a lot of names in there, & even got to hear a couple on the EC roadtrip this year.

Good luck, everybody...




------------------
Shandy Lawson

http://www.shandylawson.com

Thanks to Brian, and all those who put this contest together for all their hard work! Thanks to all those who participated and took the time to vote! It's so nice to feel like your work is amounting to something, and someone appreciates it.
Sonny Bell