JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum The Votes are all in...

I just checked other songwriting contests and they don't have the lyrics only divided into categories. I have a feeling that may occur in some lyric contests but apparently not in any songwriting contests.

Jean

I'm still trying to find out what "multigenrecal" means! :: but from Jean's comment, I think that's the category most of my writings would fall into!

I've been watching this post with curiosity and I'd be one of those on the fence. Somethings I write and I know it will come out country; others I try for anything OTHER than country and never really know until the words find their partner in music. Also, if I were to be looking on the lyric boards and trying to assist in critiquing, I would probably stick with the genre most comfortable for me and wouldn't venture far beyond that. Being and participating on a lyric board where I have a potpourrie of selections is also encouraging me as a writer to try different styles as I'm exposed to them. If we ever DO split, look for my lyrics under "multigenrecal" or "Other" <smile>

..and on the other hand.... (I'm running out of hands...)

for example, Cyrus Chestnut, a great contemporary jazz pianist not only recorded a jazz version of Beethoven's "Fur Elise" it's a LATIN Jazz version! Go, figure!

I read on another board that the old Hank Williams honkey-tonk standard "Move It On Over" has been covered and re-released by a boy band as a pop song.

Thanks to Blue Lightnin' for that tidbit.

dawg

And of course that same song (Move It On Over) was a big rockin' blues hit for George Thourhgood (spelling?) as well.

BB

BINGO!
Well, here's what I think.....(yeah, once in a while that happens, lol).

Speaking from my own experiences...when I write a lyric (I don't write music), I ALWAYS write in the country genre'. So far, of the 15 or so completed songs I have, four of them are get-down blues/jazz, one is big-band-easy listening, two are rock, two are folk music, one is bluegrass, and the others are country. This tells me that a lyric can be interpreted in many different ways. I swore that they were all country-oriented, but that goes to show ya what I know, lol.....
As Dawg mentioned, 'Move It On Over' was just released by some "hip-hop" group, and as
BB.B said, was also released as an R&B song.
Now, I doubt that ole Hank was thinkin' "hip-hop", when he wrote that song. There are a lot of other examples along these lines.
So, in my opinion, a lyric can be any genre'. It all depends on the music. I realize that there are slightly different criteria that come into play when writing for one genre' or another, but a good lyric should be able to fit most.
There are some genre's that require certain lyrics....gospel, hymn's, Christian, etc. However, as someone else mentioned, even these can have rock, blues, jazz, country, or any other type of music and still fit into that genre. For example, "I Saw The Light" has been done in probably every genre.

Just some thoughts.......

Bluelitenin

Boy, this is getting complicated!

"Springtime for Hitler" (which I LOVE, by the way) is a GOOD LYRIC because it TELLS the listener that it's a farce by the voiceover lyrics that are part of the song: "Come on, Germans, go into your dance". "I was born in Dusseldorf; that is why they call me Rolf." "Don't be stupid, be a smartie: Come and join the Nazi party." I mean, who could take that stuff seriously???

Now, WITHOUT those lyrical cues, we probably wouldn't know the intent of the song, and would, most probably, condemn it (AND its composer!). This vagueness would make it a BAD LYRIC.

BUT...let's say "Springtime for Hitler" was entered into a SONG competition, WITHOUT those lyric cues that signalled its satirical intent. And let's say that the music behind the lyrics is so obviously cheesey that the listener is able to pick up on the musical "raspberries" that Mel Brooks is giving the Nazis...THEN it can be judged a GOOD SONG!!

I don't know about you folks, but I'm starting to get a headache on this one!

I LOVE your idea of imagining this song in different genres...what a hoot! I think it's time for the fat lady to sing this one! :-)



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www.mp3.com/crisisrocks
www.mp3.com/dianatyler

Diane, I've already been hitting the aspirin over this one! Linda

Here are a few of my thoughts on this -

Regardless of the genre, a strong lyric paints a picture, grabs you in the heart, and makes you feel like a part of the song...
When I read lyrics by Bob Dylan, Joni Mitchell, Laura Nryo and Paul Simon - to name a few of my favorites -the words really do stand on their own. In my opinion, many great songs can be sung in lots of styles, because the lyrics are so meaningful. The writer has something important to say, and the style in which it is performed is only part of the presentation.

Here is an example of different genres for a lyric. I have done music for a lot of great lyric writers on this forum. When I wrap a melody around the words, I do a practice cassette to send to my co-writer. Almost all of them are given at least three different arrangements, but,I think Judy Hollier gets the prize for the most genres for one lyric in my book. I sent her a tape with seven very different full arrangements of the same song. It was Pop/Rock/Blues/Waltz/Latin/Techno beat cool/Boogie/Power Ballad. Same words, same melody, different arrangements, tempos, and feel. She chose the flavor for the demo. so I know for sure it can be done. I vote no genre for the lyric contest. Let the finished song with the music and the taste of the performer determine that. I have been reading some of the new lyrics on the boards and I must say that I have recently, without namung names, read at least three new ones that are real winners. I never realized there were so many fine writers out there. This site seems to harbor some of the best on the web IMHO. Thanks, Brian, for the opportunity to network and write with greats from all over the world. Idamarie

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JeanB:
A great children's song cannot compete with a great rock or country song. Many religious songs cannot compete with secular songs.


I might be taking this a little out of context, but the main dicussion of "genre-fying" is contained in this portion.
......and my [rhetorical] question would be: Why not?

Gordon Lightfoot wrote a children's song that has beguiled his fans for decades. ("The Pony Man".) If I were to be judging a lyric contest and saw that lyric pop up (sans the Lightfoot moniker, mind you), you can bet your Uncle Charlie and the mortgage that it would be a BIG contender.
My contention will always be that a strong lyric is a strong lyric. That means different things to different Folks, but ain't that what it's all about?
See if you don't think this would be a contender! "Hove" and "trove" (?); dunno 'bout that one. (You fans of "visuals" will dig this...)

Oops! that link died; here's another; click on "t" for "the", then click on the title...
http://www.corfid.com/gl/songs.htm
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Ozone
http://www.mp3.com/OzonePete

[This message has been edited by Ozone Pete (edited 10-27-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Ozone Pete (edited 10-29-2002).]

Hi, Pete!

Why? Because the judges will be adults. And if those adults have not worked with children extensively or can see the lyric through a child's eyes they will not be able to recognize how great the lyric is.

Some people think that a child's song needs to be simple and repetitive. There is more to it than that.

Look at the song you mentioned. I never heard of it. IMO the one of the best children's song ever written is the "Itsy Bitsy Spider." AKA "Eensy Weensy," "Itty Bitty: and other variations.

A great lyric is one that endures, is well loved, easy to remember and has managed to keep its basic structure and charm despite the many variations of it.

I have taught hundreds of children and everyone of them loved that song. It is a great lyric because it tells a graphic story that never ends. It allows for hand gestures that children absolutely adore making. I won't go into the melody because that is apart from the lyric thing here.

Imagine if that song had been introduced for the first time in the contest and no one had ever heard it, how many people would really have given it that much consideration?

Likewise with holiday or religious lyrics. Those who judge those lyrics need to be familiar with the aspects of the categories to know whether or not it is a great lyric.

They are in a class by themselves.

JeanB

A point being missed here I am sure is.
Judges will also be selected for their ability to decide how words are used no matter what genre the lyrics suggest.
Regards.
Graham

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http://www.songramp.com/homepage.ez?Who=grahamhenderson

I wasn't going to comment on this until I realized: if the contest were broken into lyric genres, I wouldn't have entered.

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Mike Dunbar Music

I second that emotion... If a lyric is good, it's good. I don't feel that it's necessary to know that it's bad hip hop instead of bad pop-country. I don't think I'd give any leeway to a mediocre lyric if I knew its intended genre...

In the marketplace all lyrics...all songs... are competing for the same $19.95 of disposable, discretionary income. It is not a necessity like food, water, air and shelter. It does not rank as high as clothing, medication, or transportation.

It competes with all other genres of music, as well as lipstick, a six-pack of beer or a book to read. I feel the genre of any given lyric is a matter of personal preference for both the writer and the reader.

dawg

As my friend Mike says very simply, he would not have entered a lyric in a catagory. I feel the same way. A good lyric is not a "song" without music, however, it is a carefully grouped bunch of words that can be sung by ten different people with ten different melodies, tempos, beats and rests ,flavors and feel. Given ten good lyrics and ten good judges It is possible you would get ten first place winners. I do not like rap because I feel it has little musical value, however I do think a rap lyric is sometimes brilliant. If I were judging lyrics, I would just as likely vote for the one designed with that genre in mind, When I read a good lyric, I almost always tune it up. A lyric that appeals to kids, also appeals to me. Funny, Jean would mention Itsy Bitsy Spider. That is one of the songs I teach my student kids to do in Techno style.They really rock with it. If it was in a contest as a lyric, Jean is right. I wouldn't vote for it either. I didn't vote for a whole lot of lyrics in this contest that I thought could be first place winners. So many great words posted here will not get chosen. Majority rules and I am sure as Brian said, that the winners will be ones that are deserving of accolades. I am eager to see if my favorites made the grade. I had chosen rwelve lyrics that I thought were outstanding. Results will be coming out soon so I wanted to say good luck to all of the brave people who entered and to all those that voted, I hope your favorite choice comes in.

Actually I think the Lyrics for itsy bitsy spider would go over well..

One of the most interesting lyricists I have found is a children's writer named Zak Morgan who has some of the most descriptive and interesting lyrics I have found in any genre.. in fact, I think the genre lends itself to descriptive lyrics as good or better than perhaps any other.

I think the same can be applied to Gospel and CC. Having literally just finalized those two categories for the 2002 Music Awards, I found myself really wanting lyrics that didn't necessarily rely on generic worn down concepts, but brought a fresh perspective to the topics, in some case without using any cliched religious passages. I did find that if you WERE going to use chorus that were more predictable and worn like "Praise Him... Jesus is the Way... etc.." it usually ONLY worked in Gospel where a soaring chorus inspired you even if they were signing the phone book. But those lyrics wouldn't (and shouldn't) win a lyric contest with cliches in them. I guess my point is that you CAN have a successful song with a great melody and performance but a weak lyric.. those lyrics just don't deserve to win a contest because they are weak.. however they have a shot in the song/album categories if the melody and production are masterful enough.

Religious music often relies on cliches in the same way an entry level writer might write a love song while rhyming Blue and True, using phrases like "stars in the sky" etc. (I bet I heard those two cliche examples 10,000 or more times this year.)

But I also found truly brilliantly done CC and Gospel songs that still focused on God or Jesus, but that didn't use a single cliched topic or line. Tammy Edwards and Dave Pahanish are two masters at that. Being someone who doesn't really identify with any particular religion and who has rarely attended any organized religious functions of any denomination or type, I have no problems at all appreciating great lyrics whether they are Christian, Hebrew, or Hindi. (etc etc etc).

So, my two cents are that great lyrics will cut through genres. If someone can't appreciate a great Religious lyric as much as a great Rap lyric or a great Pop lyric, then the problem is with the judge, not the lyrics. Even WITH that fact, however, beauty and talent rests solely in the eyes, ears and brain of the reader/listener. Each persons opinion of what MOVES them is just as valid as anyone else. That's why we only ask "Does it move you" in our awards process. To expect people to vote against what moves them for something that they think they are supposed to like (but really don't) is a very damaging prospect and has created much of what is wrong with commerical society today.

But that's just my opinion... I could be right.

Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
www.jpfolks.com

Well, I think Brian has nailed the thesis to the door -- choose what moves you. And I second that (or third or fifteen or whatever, because I think most us agree). And I also appreciate his eclecticism and his ability to appreciate all things by all people. But I think that this overlooks the fact that people do tend to look for different things in songs. And different kinds of people look for different styles of writing (note that I'm talking about writing, not music). Maybe I think too much, but there are certain themes (or topics) that are valued by some groups of people and not by others. I think you can see this most strongly in rap and Christian music, but your can also see it in C&W, rock, metal, etc. Yes, I do think that anyone can sit and evaluate lyrics written for any genre, but I also think that there is going to be a certain bias at work, and I'm not sure it's fair to lump everyone in together. At the same time, I'm not saying that the lyric categories should have to follow the musical genres that we've all become familiar with. This is our opportunity to think out of the box, and the fact that you know that any given lyric can be made to cross over musical genres does not mean that there is no value to judging lyric entries by category.

So here's my personal take. Someone remarked that he wouldn't enter the contest if there were categories. I'm not sure why that is, but here's why I feel more comfortable with categories: a lot of my songs fall into the "contemporary Christian" category, and I believe -- rightly or wrongly -- that there is an innate prejudice in the music industry against Christian lyric writing. I think, for some people, it leans on the instant "skip" button when they run across such lyrics. The bottom line is that my suspicion tends to make me not submit my CC lyrics.

I can probably say that I'm a decent lyricist. I've had two Grammy Award winners (Wayne Kirkpatrick and Gordon Kennedy) and a couple Dove Award winners (Billy Sprague and somebody else) tell me that I am. The Luboffs have as well. I took first place in lyrics in both the Unisong and Austin Songwriters contests this year (second place in ASG, too), plus a couple other finalists in both those competitions. Those wins were not for Christian lyrics, though, and I knew they wouldn't be (I entered both Christian and secular songs). It's the same way you know that they're not going to pick the lyric winner for the grand prize. They don't have to say it, you just know it. So I feel safer entering a Christian lyric in a CC category. It's not because I don't think my Christian songs can compete against secular lyrics, it's just that I don't think they'll get a fair hearing.

On another note, I wholeheartedly agree with Brian's assessment of the banality prevalent in CC lyrics. I actually did my master's thesis on just that topic, and interviewed a bunch of Christian songwriters, including Wayne, Billy, Rebecca St. James, Brad Olson (The Waiting), Andy Osenga (The Normals), and others. It's fairly readable for a thesis, and you can skip to the interviews. If anyone out there is interested, it's online at my website:

http://www.hometown.aol.com/easyhero/index.html

I guess the important thing is that we get to throw our lyrics out there, and that we get to see what we're all writing, and to me that's the coolest part of this. I don't think the category issue is that important, but it's worth discussing, I think.

Michael R. J. Roth

Wow, right after I hit the send button on that last post, I got an e-mail from the Dallas Songwriters -- four of my songs made it to the semifinalist level in the "Christian/Inspirational" category (songs, not lyrics). Would they have stood a chance if they had been lumped into the folk, pop or singer-songwriters groups? It's hard to say, because when you get right down to it, the "Christian" category is a lyrical, not a musical, category; Christian music covers all styles musically. Well, it's food for thought.

Michael R. J. Roth

In response to Easyhero's assessment of a need for categories for lyrics (his example was Christian lyrics)--

I agree that much of today's CCM is banal. These lyrics say LITTLE about the Christian faith and only spout (boringly and repetitiously) little doctrine-ettes that neither explain the Christian faith, nor feed the listener/singer with anything of substance. I am BORED TO TEARS by most "praise music"!!!!

HOWEVER, as a Christian writer, I LOVE putting my stuff toe-to-toe against broad bodies of lyrics...because THAT is how you get the message OUT THERE to people who would normally turn the dial on the "Christian" category. If my lyrics are engaging enough, they'll listen...plus, then I MAY have at least ONE good element on which I can begin to build a good song...

So, there's MY two cents...can I have change for my quarter??

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www.mp3.com/crisisrocks
www.mp3.com/dianatyler

By the way, anyone ever hear Little Richard's version of "Itsy-Bitsy Spider"? It really rocks.

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Mike Dunbar Music

Didn't Carly Simon use Itsy Bitsy Spider as well?

Hey now!
Wassup with this apparent persecution complex from some writers of Christian-leaning lyrics? (There is a notable exception, which I'm pleased to see...)
I'm a little peeved that I would be thought to be pre-judging anything by its' subject matter. Just to let you know; I read every word of every song; even those that [IMHO] were inherently weak from the get-go.
However....if you feel it's a necessity for your belief to be castigated and spurned (blessed are they, etc., etc.), I s'pose that could be mandated somehow.
-The damned heathen

Weren't the nominations supposed to be posted by the end of the month, meaning thursday the 31st?

Haven't heard anymore and I am dead curious to see if my picks are amongst the top picks
Ingrid

Ingrid,

Actually the song nominations are done in every catgory except 3 (of 42). I am finalizing the Album nominations right now and most likely (if there are no other major unexpected hurdles) I will post the nominees before I leave for the Southwest Roadtrip next Monday. I personally wanted to announce the nominees on Thursday, Oct 31, but we've had a major snag in 1 genre (i.e. the stuff isn't back from Los Angeles because they aren't finished with it yet), and I am sort of at the mercy of getting it back and then doing the final work on my end to finish that genre. So I am plugging away on all the others and it's my hope I will get that last genre back on Friday, spend Saturday polishing up the Album and Song picks for that one and then work on Sunday to get the nominees on line and out via the newsletter. I leave for 3 months on the road on Tuesday, so no one is more pressed to get this out than I am!

Thanks for asking,

Brian

Brian I appreciate you replying,
I am really confused as I am new in here!
I was only referring to the BEST LYRIC AWARD CONTEST!
I thought it only had to boil down to 5 nominations!
Please enlighten me
Ingrid

Ingrid,
The "Best Lyric" award thang is new to the JPF Awards this year; the other [established] categories entail music and songs in a mind-boggling array of type and variety!
So that's what Brian is attempting to put all together, which will include the 5 final nominees for the new category of Just Plain Lyrics.
Soon, soon..... Brian doesn't have enough elves quite yet to compete with machine-like efficiency of the Grammy's! LOL
(PLUS, he's got SCADS more good music to listen through than they do!)
Thanks for helping with the nominee voting Ingrid; us guys doing it took some of the pressure off of Brian for a change. (Lord knows he could use a break now and then.)

Ozone thanks
Now I get it....geez I did not realize it was that hectic and that the Lyric Contest was to be included in the entire JPF contest thing.
That is an awesome task! How does the guy do it without busting at the seams!
And then he goes off on the road for 3 months...way too much...he should ask someone for help!
Ingrid

How does Brian keep up with all of this? Nobody could keep up this level of sustained activity if they didn't totally love what they were doing.

I can't imagine sitting down and reviewing such a massive amount of music and lyrics, I mean, Godiva Chocolates sure do taste good, but I wouldn't want to eat an entire store inventory of it.

And Brian, if you keep zooming all over the map like this, we're all going to have to chip in and buy you a sleigh and eight tiny reindeer.

John Trentes

Whoa, there, Pete. Looks like you've got issues about this, but I was just trying to use my own experience as an example of how having categories affects people's decisions about what to submit. As I said, I think my comments would similarly apply to people who write rap lyrics, Goth lyrics or other types of lyrics that tend to grow out of a particular cultural context. Yeah, I think we can all judge each other's lyrics by our own criteria. I was just questioning whether that gives the lyrics (not just Christian lyrics) a fair hearing. And I don't think it's necessary to start insulting people. I thought we were just talking about the various benefits and drawbacks of having categories. You know, as a lyricist, I do not fit in well with the mainstream of Christian songwriters. I was just musing about how the categorization of lyrics affects the selection process. I mean, why do they have categories for songs? Why don't they just lump 'em all together and let the C&W go toe to toe with hip-hop and see who wins? Because somebody would be squawking, "It's not fair." I think the same thing applies to lyrics. In the end, one thing that categorizing does is provide a better selection of the various kinds of work being done. And, hey, you get to submit more songs!

Michael R. J. Roth
http://www.hometown.aol.com/easyhero/index.html

Does Brian have a full time job besides this? Or is this his full time job? If so, how does he get paid? I don't see any advertising on this site and I haven't had to pay any dues (although I would gladly do so). How does he do it, all this traveling?

I think Brian said this years roadtrip was sponsored by Taxi. Not only that but they let a whole bunch of us out in CA attend the Rally free. Some others sponsor JPF by helping with expenses or donating services. I belive this website is hosted as a donation. We are not a non-profit group though. I am pretty sure it's a no strings attached thing regarding sponsorship.

Brian sells JPF T-shirts and Caps. They are $20 ea. If you want to help out, please buy some. You can also just donate some money too. Others have done that when things were tight for Brian to help that.

I wish we could have a JPFathon once or twice a year. We could do the 900 phone number thingie that charges us on our phone bill. It's an easy way to help without involving checks, credit cards or money through the mail.

Anyhoo, that's as much as I know or have heard. Hopefully it's correct. I am guessing he isn't getting rich
from selling T-shirts.

JeanB

Pete, let me give you an example of something that just happened to me. My local paper finally got around to doing a little story on me after I took first place for lyrics in two song contests (six months after the fact, of course). Where did they run the feature? Arts and Entertainment? Of course not! The "Religion" section!

Go figure.

Michael
http://www.hometown.aol.com/easyhero/index.html

Yep, just the thing i was itching to say for so long. Have you read the song "Conniptions" posted by Zak Morgan for the lyric contest? If anyone could stand shoulder to shoulder with Bill Watterson (of 'Calvin and Hobbes' fame), it is this guy! Mindblowing expression. I hope he's reading this.

Pramod

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He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by EasyHero:
[B]Pete, let me give you an example of something that just happened to me. My local paper finally got around to doing a little story on me after I took first place for lyrics in two song contests (six months after the fact, of course). Where did they run the feature? Arts and Entertainment? Of course not! The "Religion" section!
Go figure.
Michael

Michael,
Yep! Point well taken. How's that go?: "You're not paranoid if they really ARE out to get you..." (or sumpthin' like that).
I was juat trying to indicate that MY attitude is to be impartial in regards to subject matter in a lyric. Remember, I'm talking lyric only. (Yes, there are SONGS that are "guilty pleasures" of mine that have what I'd consider very weak lyrics; I just like the groove! )
I would agree that it's necessary for complete songs to be categorized because so many different (or similar) styles of music can be adapted to a lyric, that a specific lyrical style would get lost in the crowd.
(Looking at Brian's posting about having to pare down to nominees from what he considered about a THOUSAND "finalists" in the song categories...)
EDIT: I also agree that categorizing lyrics would allow more entries, but weren't there enough this time for us poor lonely voters?

As to my first post; I was poking fun at humorless and futile complaint about the wheels of cosmic justice. (No...that's going a little far, after all, this is only a lyric contest! lol Plus, I got to vent about MY approach too.)
No offence INTENDED; if taken... well that makes that little post more pointed than it need be, eh? Besides, the "rest of us" are all going to Perdition anyhow, so our opinions don't mean much in the big picture...
Yours in fun (and some music too)
-just me


[This message has been edited by Ozone Pete (edited 10-31-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Ozone Pete (edited 10-31-2002).]

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[This message has been edited by couchgrouch (edited 10-31-2002).]

This thread sure has genereated a lot of responses.

I'm generally against categorizing lyrics - primary reason because they can typically be turned into songs of multiple genres.

On a more focused debate - is categorizing "Christian" categorizing by genre or by topic? Songs with a christian theme can be hymns, gospel, folk, ballads, rock, metal, even hip-hop or electronica.

And EZ - any press is good press. So what if it was in the religion section. If it was a great review, quote it, paste it, link it!



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Marty Helly

Tnias - rock n roll with an acoustic heart and a bass ackwards soul!

Is there a setting on the digital delay that will allow me to think before I speak?

Actually I think you should let couchgrouch have the final word!

Well, Ozone, you've got me thinkin', maybe we should co-write a song called "Go to Hell." Sort of a dialog with barbed humor, along the lines of "one man's hell is another man's barbecue."

Let me know.

Easy

Marty, you're absolutely right, as the saying goes, "so long as they spell my name right," I can't complain about the publicity. It's just one of those interesting side notes, because the point of the article was, one would think, about what a fantastic songwriter I must be, and it ends up being something else. I really didn't mind at all, but I thought it was ironic. You know, like if you write a song about a Parisian cafe and they put you in the food section. Well, okay, it's not quite like that, but you get the idea.

And, unfortunately, this article never made it to the online edition.

What exactly Christian music (to quote the former President) "is" is a matter of longstanding debate, especially in Christian music circles. There are books written about it. I spent a year on a 250-page thesis writing about it. But I think you can say it's unique in that it is the only musical "genre" that is defined by lyrical content and not by musical style. Maybe there's another genre that fits that description, but none come to mind.

But to change the subject a bit, I am often puzzled by the fact that lyricists seem to be at the bottom of the food chain in the music biz, like you're not a "real" songwriter if you only write lyrics. And I think that's reflected in the genre debate. A great deal of care is taken to distinguish one musical genre from another, but with lyrics, hey, it's just something to help your mouth move to the music. Personally, I think the impact of lyrics is vastly underrated. But I am, of course, highly biased in this regard.

I remember talking to some guy -- can't remember his name -- who wrote for the Grateful Dead. He told me he was hanging out with them, and their attitude was, "Hey, you can spell. Write us some lyrics."

That about says it, I think.

Michael R. J. Roth

Michael

At the risk of pissing everyone off, there's a few reasons why lyrics are lower on the totem poll than musicians or folks who write both music and lyrics.

1. I've heard a LOT of songs I loved that had really weak lyrics and really great music and performances. I can't say the same for really strong lyrics and really bad music and performances.

2. Music is..SOUND.. not words. Lyrics and the performance of them is very similar to an additional instrument being added to the sound. It conveys the melody. I am not suggesting that lyrics don't kick in to take a great listening experience and turning it into a great and meaningful life experience
(which generally takes meaningful lyrics to do, though not always.. classical music can make people cry and has for centuries), but if people are honest, most of us (unless we are screening a song, or doing it for business reasons) listen to music and ONLY catch the hook or chorus and a general gist of what it is all about the first several times we hear it, especially if it's on the radio, in a bar, and not something we are 100% focused on. If the music and melody isn't "doing it" for you, you'll rarely ever listen close enough (or often enough) to get to the great lyric that lies within. I think you'll have to admit that.. though you probably don't want to based on your post above.

3. There are simply a lot of lyricists out there who aren't musicians. Music performance is very tied into ego. Most musicians want to perform and convey THEIR message (even if they suck at lyric writing.) My advice if you are only a lyricist is to get an inexpensive electronic keyboard and start putting chord progressions to your lyrics and come up with melodies.. otherwise.. you're always going to be at the bottom of the heap in the eyes of musicians who are your peers and unless you can break through and team up with a hit music writer and get some cuts as a lyricist, you're always going to have trouble finding success on a commercial level. At least if you can provide basic melodies and progressions, you can CO-Write with a musician who might be a weak lyricist, but who can relate to you more because you bring a musical progression and they can use their musicianship to take it to another level.

Lets open this up for discussion. (This has been the most intelligent ongoing thread I think we've ever had since we started this.. hopefully this will continue).

How would you rank these 7 components in importance to a finished song?

1. Melody
2. Music (Production, Groove, Progression)
3. Hook Line/Chorus
4. Vocal Performance
5. Song Structure (i.e. verse/bridge/chorus)
6. Story Line (overall song idea/point)
7. Lyrical Detail (i.e. quality of verses)

Think about it before you quickly answer.

If you want to reach the average music fan the most effectively... what's the order?

And finally, on the other topic, I think Gospel Music is based primarily on specific religious text.. but CC music can often be about non specific religious topics, but generally touches on spiritual, positive, hopeful, forgiving topics. I know the music we have in this year's CC nominations don't always deal directly with God or Jesus because they are often contemporary (i.e. modern) ways to get the message that old time scripture might make, across in a contemporary and more digestable way. I think of Gospel music as something I would expect to hear in a church and structure setting whereas I expect CC music to be a music focused (i.e. style, sound, performance) presentation of the same ideas packaged in fresh new ways.

Great discussion gang...

Brian


[This message has been edited by Brian Austin Whitney (edited 11-01-2002).]

How would you rank these 5 components in importance to a finished song?

1. Melody
2. Music (Production, Groove, Progression)
3. Hook Line/Chorus
4. Vocal Performance
5. Song Structure (i.e. verse/bridge/chorus)
6. Story Line (overall song idea/point)
7. Lyrical Detail (i.e. quality of verses)

In my opinion this is the order Brian:
3/1. Hook
1/2. Melody
4/3. Vocal Performance
6/4. Story line
2/5. Music (Production)
7/6. Lyric detail
5/7. Song structure

Based, in my opinion, on what an average listner on commercial radio would listen to to decide whether to buy that song or not!

Ingrid

I don't think you can rank these components in an order of importance......

A good song will have most of these components.....

A great song will have them all...

C-Ya,
Joe

In my most humble opinion and based on experiences in my life...

I wouldn't rank any of those in any order. It's very simple for me and it's also very instantaneous. I have only one criteria for a lyric, music, and/or complete song, and that is:

1. VISCERAL REACTION.

That's it, for me it's that simple.

But I'm an ameteur, and I'm not a musician, no matter how much I wish I was.

to grab the listener melody and musical hooks are much more important than a thoughtful lyric. you need a good lyric for a deep, lasting classic song but for just a fun record to listen to, it's music that counts. Even artists primarily known for lyrics like Dylan write very strong melodies. his early stuff was full of catchy guitar and organ licks and memorable chorus lines. Townes' melodies are lovely. in fact, that's what drew me to songs as a teen...rich melodies. and that's what keeps me away from most modern music, they're all production and no tunes. bad lyrics are a secondary concern for me.

Is it just me? There are so many songs in which I can hum the melody and/or hook and not even know what the song is even about. In fact, as a kid I used to make up my own lyrics to melodies I heard because I didn't know the words and it was just easier to make up my own! ;-) So I would have to place melody and hook at the top of the list in importance. However, as a CC writer I know what an effective tool a good song can be in sharing my feelings about life, love, philosophy etc. . . but it takes a really strong melody and hook for someone to pay attention to the lyrics, unless, like Brian said, they are giving the song %100 of their attention. Just my thoughts.

How about the song La Bamba? I don't know what the heck it is about but it is sure a catchy toon and would be considered a hit in spite of the fact I don't even understand the lyrics. So if a hook is strong enough and catchy enough the song could be about anything (or nothing!) and still be a hit. IMO

BTW, read my signature . . . :-)

------------------
"If it sounds good, it is good!"

Joro has a great point, butttt...
my ranks would go like this:
1. Music (Production, Groove, Progression)
2. Hook Line/Chorus
3. Lyrical Detail (i.e. quality of verses)
4. Melody
5. Vocal Performance
6. Story Line (overall song idea/point)

and in a distant, distant, distant 7th place:
Song Structure (i.e. verse/bridge/chorus)

I would have to rank as follows:

1. Melody

2. Hook Line / Chorus

3. Music

4. Vocal Performance

5. Story Line

6. Song Structure

7. Lyrical Detail

I am sure there will be plenty of questions as to why Lyrical Detail is last. That's just the way I see it. Radio is the average music fan's medium. If your flipping through the stations , what catches your attention first, the melody. If you don't like the sound, you keep going, or should i say if it doesn't interest you. Sometimes something different that cathces your ear will make you stick around.
Just My Opinion.

I wrote in an early part of this thread about what I thought was the relevant importance of lyrics to a song, which I concluded was on the low end of importance. But let me suggest two things:

1. That while there may be many mediocre lyrics that get by when supported by good melodies, production, vocals, etc., this also is support to the argument that, in fact, real good lyrics and really great lyrics are not that easy to write and there are not that many great lyrics around.

2. That a creative work that spans only a few minutes in time, a few minutes to catch the interest of a listener, who probably has his/her attention split while listening, cannot really afford to be weak in any of the categories we are discussing.

Looking forward to more great postings on this topic! Linda



[This message has been edited by sweetsong (edited 11-01-2002).]