JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum your yardstick for success

what is it?

it's been asked recently - but i wanna reword it.

i get a very "market-oriented" feel from jpfolks. which is understandable - since the goal is to increase everyone's collective exposure, right?

but is there anybody who just likes to write and play songs as an art form?

i'm not dissing people trying to sell their music - at all. just curious.

what does "making it" mean for you?

a major label contract?
free beer?
touring with/as a national act?
chicks/guys?
making your mom proud?

Okay...I'll bite.
I fall somewhere in the middle.........or maybe better said as both. commercial and art form.
Many years ago I did have the dreams of a recording contract with a major label, national tours.........al that. But logic told me quite a while back that that oportunity is pretty much gone. At 50, there aren't many labels looking for me. LOL
Since then, I had been content to siing my songs at open mics and the occasional small gig. (I'm very folky in performance style)
Then I found JPF. and realised that getting my songs to other performers was still possible. albeit with terrible odds. still possible. And so a wiser, older writer now, I will look as any commercial success I get as gravy. (not that I don't still want it as much as others, I just won't sacrifice EVERYTHING in order to get it)
I still have plans to make that ever-postponed CD. perhaps to sell, perhaps to give most away. (depends on how much longer it gets put off)
In time I expect to be performing locally again. For those like you that are new......I left a very large network of folk, country.... and lighter rock musicians a year ago when I moved from Washington state.
Yes, with some songs I aim at commercial standards. and some songs, I know will only be sung by me, and thus only have to fit my performance parameters.
those are my goals

Success? I have it already. many people have been touched deeply (and some moved to actions) by my songs. I have made people laugh, smile, and even cry (women AND men)Like I said, anything on top of that is gravy. good gravy.....at that
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Harriet
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/9/harrietamesmusic.htm

[This message has been edited by Harriet Ames (edited 08-05-2003).]

that's really cool. that's the best reason to write, man. songs, or poems, or whatever.

Hi, Kit!

Re: The members here:

Some people just want commercial success and try to write according to "success" formulas. They don't care about the longevity of the song or aesthetics. They may just want fame and fortune.

Some people love to write and want commercial success so they earn a living and do what they love to do full time. They may care about the quality of the songs but are also writing for the enjoyment of others and they adjust their work for those puposes.

Some people write purely for personal expression and some of those care if the listener can relate to it and others don't care if they do at all.

Some people write music for idealogic or altruistic puposes.

Some people write music as a hobby.
It's just fun to do.

I am sure there are other motivations or combinations of the above , I haven't touched on but I have seen them all here at various times. You have to have been here for a while and have looked though all the previous posts to see it.

Also, please be aware that what you see on the board is just a small percentage of
members. You would have to be familiar with a lot of chapters to really know what JPF is all about.

I am constantly impressed by the quality of music in my own chapter. I also see all of the above mentioned motivations in my chapter and the songs are fabulous.

As for the best reason to write a song … why is that important ? Someone with commercial motivation can write a song that enriches the lives of others just as well as someone who is motivated to create "art."

Likewise, they both can create a lousy song. The motivation doesn't necessarily affect the product.

Anyway, hang in there and get to know us better if you want to see what we are really like. Also perhaps consider joining a chapter near you and try to attend some JPF showcases. You will get a better understanding of what JPF is all about. This board is just the tip of the iceberg.

JeanB

JeanB -

I plan on it. Indeed, I've already done at least one JPF showcase here in Indy.

I'm just soliciting generic opinions on the boards, because it's a topic I like to talk about. What about you specifically? What does "making it" mean for you?

Good question, Kit... and one definitely worth exploring for all of us. I think it's easier for most people to equate success with tangible goals or accomplishments (like "getting signed," winning contests or making money from anything we do). But more and more I'm meeting people who feel similarly that the idea of success can be both an elusive one and easier to grasp than we often make it.

As an indie artist -- an actively performing singer-songwriter in the Northeast U.S. -- I've learned to savor each bit of success along the way. One of those moments came a few years ago at Club Passim's open stage (in Cambridge, MA) when I performed my original song "Melinda" and had the entire roomful of artists singing along... to a song they'd NEVER heard before. That five minutes meant more to me than many other moments at the time, because I'd made a connection and reached people with my music that night. But it's just one humble example...

My songs and CDs may sound commercially appealing because that's the kind of music I grew up listening to... and yes, I do want to reach as many people as possible with my music. But to me, pursuing the avenues we want to for our musical calling while learning to savor each success along the way is an art in itself.

Cheers,
GMG
JPF Western Mass chapter

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Guy-Michael Grande
Passionate power-pop for roller-coaster romantics
Route Five Records
www.guy-michael.com

this is great! what a variety of reasons for making songs.

personally -- i try to write the kind of song that i'd like to listen to myself.

success? i haven't really figured out how i'll measure it.

i'm not totally altruistic - i definitely enjoy having an audience... i play out and i like having people come to shows.

maybe that's it -- finding and preserving some sort of an audience. connecting with people who can relate to me and to the kinds of things i like to sing about.

i like to write about things that have happenend to me. or things i see. playing open mics and coffeehouses seems to be the most fun right now, and i've sold about 75cd's. that i make myself at these gigs. some folks are asking for certain songs and that's reward in itself..

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www.barkinbarney.com

i write and record to KEEP MY SANITY. i play everything myself, so playing live and "making it" is out of the question. if someone comes across my stuff and can enjoy it or vent with it. it's like running into a long lost friend.

[This message has been edited by sunnworks (edited 08-06-2003).]

For me, success happens show by show. If someone signs up for our mailing list, or likes us enough to take/buy a CD, or better yet, they come up and compliment me on my play, or the band... that means the world to me... I guees my measuring stick is kinda small... but I guss that way I don't get disappointed very often.

-Mark
Lost in America
http://www.getlostinamerica.com

Hi again, Kit!

About me personally? I discovered I had been given a gift for writing religious songs which helped others learn about their faith and express their feelings to and about God. So that became my ministry. It is my way of serving God.

Would I like for it to be commercially successful? In a way, yes, so I could write the music full time instead of part time. I would rather be financially independent and make my religious music free to all who want to use it. (LOL, I already do although I am not financially comfortable.)

As a young person I began writing songs because I had learned all the songs my friends had taught me and I couldn't buy sheet music so I wrote my own.

I began writing secular songs again when I joined JPF. Just to see if I could and because I enjoyed it. It would be neat if I could make a living at doing that and then my religious music could be shared without compensation.

Or I could win the lotto and then I wouldn't have to worry about commercial aspects.
Whether I become financially comfortable or not doesn't matter really. I would still write them.

When I write I don't write for commercial success. The listeners ARE important to me because most of the songs whether religious or secular are written for them to enjoy. But they have to satisfy me first and if the songs are good enough, I share them.

I have a few personal expression songs which are for me alone though and while I don't mind sharing them, I don't expect others to relate to them. When they do, it's a nice surprise.

JeanB

That is a good attitude, Jean. I think that some songwriters can be a little too worried about whether or not the audience "gets" them -- and the end of that road are songs that have nothing in them to "get".

I agree with you -- writers (and artists of all kinds!) should try to strike a balance between pleasing themselves and communion with an audience.

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kit malone
http://www.kitmalone.com

[This message has been edited by kit (edited 08-07-2003).]

For the most part, I agree with Mark's post: "For me, success happens show by show. If someone signs up for our mailing list, or likes us enough to take/buy a CD, or better yet, they come up and compliment me on my play, or the band... that means the world to me...
-Mark
Lost in America"

In addition, if I've touched someone's emotion, or even if they tap their feet and smile when I perform, it's worth it.

Beyond that, my goal is to be recognized and respected in my region. I'd like to perform occasionally in front of a packed house that bought tickets just to see me. I'd like other artists to invite me to perform with them. That's the level of success I'd like to achieve. Fame and fortune beyond that would be a dream, but as we all know, chances are slim.

Dear Kit:

I can tell you why I enjoy performing... The Thrill of it!

After not performing professionally (getting $$$ for it) for over 20 years, I attended an open mic night at a local, high-end Blues nightclub. I performed "Doctor Feelgood" with several members of the House Band and a few musicians in the audience - which is to say that neither of us knew the style of the other. Nevertheless, we pulled the performance off with flying colors - and I received a standing ovation and requests (by both members of the house band and the audience) and, later, pats on the back and congratulations, from a "crowded house." Needless to say, this made me feel wonderful and that my talent actually matters.

At present, I am desirous of joining a Jazz/Blues band, trio, or quartet available to perform on weekends. I am happy keeping my day job, but would highly enjoy the opportunity to share my music and make extra $change$ while doing so!

Dolly

I write music for several reasons, industrial shows, bands I'm with, radio jingles, pitching on Music Row. My favorite songs are the ones I write for myself. In the meantime, I am "making it", I have been all along. I spent years as a single and in bands, unable to play different kinds of music with different people. Now I play with a lot of great people as well as on my own, so as far as I'm concerned, I'm making it.

Mike

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Mike Dunbar Music

I want to write songs that are so good that when people hear them they will say (or think), "Man, I LOVE that song."

Then, I hope that a producer or recording artist will hear one of my songs and think that it is so good that they will say "Man, I LOVE that song," and record it.

Then, I hope that people who hear the record will think it is so good that they will say "Man, I LOVE that song."

Everything else will take care of itself.

Here's another thread that sems to have died out too soon.



Hey Kit,

I can find agreement & validity in just about all of the above posts.

For me, nothing satisfies (ouside of great sex) like the feeling of writing a self-satisfying piece of music I truly believe in, playing it in front of people & getting a positive response. (generous applause, buying a cd or 3, asking for autograph, asking questions about a piece, etc...)

Yeah, i'm not ashamed to admit my ego generally likes to be stroked. (Otherwise, why am I going through the bother of setting up shows/gigs? I'll just play in my own living room for the empty seats.)

If a piece of my music isn't getting the response I hoped for after several shows, I may take a good look at it & possibly re-tool. Hasn't happened yet - I guess I'm saying I don't rule that option out.

Actually, that isn't true. Since my first recordings 5-6 years ago & since some of my first writings 25 years ago, many of my pieces have 'evolved' through the years. Refinements here & there. Some of that comes from growth in my technical ability. Some from creating more expression. Some, just to change things up a bit.

Does that make my music less genuine? Only if I stray from my original vision of what that piece was about.

Having listened to a few of your pieces, I have no doubt that you will (or already are) experience succes on many levels with your music. Like it or not, there is something there for the listener to grab ahold of & relate to. There's a genuine sincerity in your writing.

Questions such as these help us understand what other musicians are motivated/driven by & thinking. That's why I felt the need to bring this thread back up, Too soon & too few contributions to die already. I appreciate your line of thought, Kit.

Bottom line; the whole creative process is a blast! I could never be an accountant. PASSION!!!

Jeff

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"Don't forget to dance." The Kinks
javamusik.com

[This message has been edited by JavaMusiK (edited 09-16-2003).]

Kit, ole buddy..
I'm afraid my yardstick's been stepped on and fractured into several small pieces!
I'll tell you what though... next Sunday you can buy me a Jack & Coke at the PrarieDog Rappers Convention.. wait...I think that's what they call it...

-gp

Cisco...
You mean the annual WGCI music seminar? Is that what you kids are calling it nowadays? : )

Wendell

Kit,

When I write a love song for my wife, do I ask myself if the general public will get the message I'm sending? Nope! So long as SHE gets it, that is all that really matters to me. Is that success? I won't elaborate on the details of how she reacts after she hears the song for the first time, but the reward I recieve for my effort satisfies both of us.

Now if that same song somehow has universal appeal that every woman can relate to, so much the better.

i'm afraid you'll have to settle for a 40 of Schlitz -- i'm pretty sure that's all they sell there.



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kit malone
http://www.kitmalone.com

Oh no...not the case at all! Amazingly, (or not), they are proudly still serving Falstaff and Blatz also!
-GP

I am already successful:

1. I have a wonderful wife who loves me more than I deserve.

2. I have beautiful daughter who loves me more than I deserve.

How will I know I have been successful once I'm gone? Maintaining # 1&2 above.

When it comes to songwriting, sure I would love to someday be able to wake up and have as my main task to write a song that day. For that to be my job. But that's the gravy. I just love doing it. I will consider myself successful in the realm of songwriting if my daughter sees that her old man pursued his dream. Whether I achieve commercial success is irrlavent. Just so she sees the pursuit - that's the success IMO.

Right On!

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"Don't forget to dance." The Kinks
javamusik.com

I write because it allows me to take a vacation away from myself

Most of the time I have to be logical, analytical, focussed etc, so when I can let my yayas out and be creative....


Over the past several years I have progressed to the point where I consider myself a reasonably good song writer, and though I have nothing out there, I have certainly had good reactions to some of my work.


So I am reasonably happy as a serious hobbyist with some good material, playing out at open mics and gettin better interacting with like minded people. And I make a decent living outside music doing something that I like. And I have a wonderful wife and family.

Is there anything else?????


(edit....Yeah John Scott...you get it)



[This message has been edited by John Voorpostel (edited 09-17-2003).]

It's fun...it makes me happy..

sometimes something I've written for myself will touch someone else and they'll tell me...that's nice..

Today my label called to tell me that for no apparent reason we've sold 50 cds on ebay in the last couple of days..

wondering why....that's fun...

gonna do a show in october that will join me up with a whole bunch of talented people half my age...that's gonna be fun....

I like to have fun...

I really am spoiled !

Bob

Great post, Bob.

Not to get off topic here, but could/would you elaborate briefly on the type of arrangement you set up on ebay? This may be a good subject to start a new topic with.

You just hit a marketing nerve, that's all.

Thanks!

Jeff

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"Don't forget to dance." The Kinks
javamusik.com

for me, John Scott and Bob Young said it all. I'm allready a success as long as I have my family and I'm having fun making music with my friends.

I hope the music I make puts a smile on the face of anyone who listens, as long as I get to play out- there's gonna be a smile on mine.

Mike

A friend told me she sent the link to my dog doo blues toher little niece as she thought she would like it. Auntie now tells me all, the kid's class mates are singing it.
Lot morre productive than the dirty dities I used to sing at school I tell ya.
Yeah. I'm a success.
My job ain't done . It's just begun.
Graham.

Indeed

Good thread Kit. My main guages for success are seeing imporvement, connecting with other musicians and fans, feeling comfortable and just having fun.

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http://tuhker.tripod.com

i come back to thinking about this -- because i sometimes catch myself wondering what my own goal is. and so i ramble--

i find myself drifting from show to show, project to project. i know that i want to keep making music all my life -- because i like music for it's own sake.

but that just seems too amorphous, sometimes, when i'm driving home very late after a gig. i've got a record. i play out fairly regularly. what's the next step?

i don't really want to be a rock star. at least -- i know that isn't a realistic goal. i'm not really talented enough in a purely technical way to be a session musician. i'm not sure i'd be happy writing songs for other people - although i've considered it. i'm not a good enough engineer to start my own indie label.

i think i write good songs - and am competant at music for them. i think i'm an ok live performer - and i like to think i have something basically interesting to say about the world.

but is any of this a good enough reason to keep plugging away when there are so many people who are obviously more talented, or obviously more marketable? so many people who are doing something new and interesting - and i'm still "just a folksinger."

i don't always know - it's easy to find yourself feeling kind of obselete when you're just a basic run-of-the-mill folksinger. i want to be doing something different - but i just can't put your finger on what.

i'm glad so many people responded to my question -- it's these worries that make me want to ask people what *they* are doing. what *their* goals are, both distant and immediate. it's kind of heartwarming that so many people have goals that are so personal and human.


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kit malone
http://www.kitmalone.com

Kit:

It wasn't that long ago that Emmylou Harris was a basic run-of-the-mill folksinger at Child Herald, a small club in Washington, D.C.

Seems like yesterday, but 1969 may be considered pre-history to most in here. Still, you never know where humble beginnings may lead.

Kit,
Since you are just the run-of-the- mill basic folk singer, I'm all the more eager to hear your music on Sunday. Why? Because I'll bet there's something about you which is unique.
Are you suggesting you are bored with what you are doing currently (musically), and need some innovative new twists, etc?
Or do you feel the desire to grab an electric guitar and ride the Hendrix feedback dragon? Is that it? Desires to become a great white-male Donna Summer? Is disco truly what begs your calling? You want to be the next Emminem? Is that it?
Or are you thinking more along the lines of new twists on an old design which is folk?
Just picking your brain in return.. this could be interesting, and leave us much to discuss in a few days.

-Gary

With the discussion of success appearing in a corresponding thread , I thought this particular thread might be an appropriate sideline to that topic.

I am also posting this response in that thread since I was asked a question pertaining to a previous response.
Success, to me, is the achievement of one's goals to the satisfaction of the achiever. As a musician, I have had some successes. Am I successful as a musician? In my mind, no. Am I striving for further success? Yes. Have I achieved my goals to my satisfaction? No. Therefore, I do not consider myself to be successful. However, the opposite of successful is failure. One can only fail if they give up on their quest for success. By the same token, becoming comfortable with one's success can lead to an equally disasterous or sad destiny. Am I a failure? No.

Never give up.

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JavaMusiK

E-Mail JavaMusiK to get your cd's added to the JustPlainFolks Gallery at:
cdbaby.com/group/justplainfolks

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kit:
[B]what is it?
Is there anybody who just likes to write and play songs as an art form?

Yes! For me as a witness of creating something musical and lyrical, (hopefully anyway). Then for people here to hear. Then for whoever else happens to hear it.

For me, success is doing music, accomplishing anything from day to day. Then there's the business success, which I had some very cool things happen, but without even decent money attached to them. Still, great business success in my eyes, as they entered the world of pro venues, (TV, Radio), with minor film venues, (pbs Tv and film festivals in theaters for one of the films we scored).

So, there's several aspects of success. Personal, venues and money. 2 out of 3 ain't bad! If a choice of one,,,,,Personal, without a doubt. That is always there! It's in my heart and soul. Just doing music at my piano is successful! Is the most intimate part of it.


John Daubert

[This message has been edited by dhsongs (edited 04-15-2006).]

Doing something that I love, having fun,being good at what I do, earning the respect of my peers,over-achieving on the woman front, making a comfortable living,and not having a day job.

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bc

Why cant it just be "A" Success like "A" step or "A" piece of the puzzle. It is not the "whole" picture of anyones life. A success is a babys first step as is a Hospice workers' helping a fellow human being make the transition from a world of suffering into the next...So even completing a simple song for you that no one else will ever hear, is a success; as is being recognized for a song that is there for the whole world to hear. It's all in the "spirit" of whatever it is; not for us to judge or measure. Susan Lainey www.susanlainey.com

[This message has been edited by laineytunes@yahoo.com (edited 04-17-2006).]

your yardstick for success;

My yardstick for success, is when the most cynical, disgruntled, anxious delivery guy sees me.. and immediately wants to speak, shake hands, or have a photo with me.. then yes I will feel as though I have been successful! I've made it!

Funny thing is when I let my father know my ultimate goals.. my mother asked me.. "what? did I not get enough attention as a child?! She has a way of tongue lashing my best of intentions.

Daris

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Sorry, I did not major in english.

To me, the most successful person would one who obtains value from every minute of his/her life.

I am 97.62% of the way there

Scott

Now looking back at my reply I should have continued to say that when writing a song at it's basic level, at least for me;it's not a thing to chop into judgemental pieces. I mean, I have a learned sensibility of what a hit , pop, or marketable song should have but the creative side of it definately takes priority . I think we can have plain ole fun with both sides after years of trial, error, and simple experimentation. How sad for every musical moment to be spent on chasing the "successful popular song or making it"? What about the journey of life through music? Who said "Oz isnt really all it's cracked up to be?." Some famous Nashville star who made it over & over again......or did he just want us to think there's no room at the top? Is that success? I don't know..... Susan Lainey