JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Industry Message Forum Feedback on Countdown Entertainment / Hire A Consultant (NYC)

Looking for feedback from anyone re Countdown Entertainment or James Citkovic. I am cautiously reading a looong contract from them. The deal is, a non-exclusive agreement starting with a trial period for a minimum $1k/month for 2 months, in exchange for national and international leads. Check it out for yourself, there's more to it than that.

In my experience there are many small consultant/management companies out there claiming supremacy in providing targeted leads in various areas (licensing, publishing, A&R, etc). So is this just more smoke and mirrors or the "real thing?"

Thanks,

Patti

Patti,

I've never heard of them and these comments do no apply directly to this company. That said, I can't imagine a service actually worth that money nor can I imagine they can give you any real promises of anything on general terms. I mean by this that without pre-qualifying you any claims they make are bogus. Simply supplying "leads" (whatever that might mean) is pointless unless you specifically are suited to benefit from those specific types of leads. If these leads are available to anyone willing to shell out $1000 dollars, then how useful is it to the people on the other side of these "leads" to work with these people? If I am a label or publisher or licensing etc. why would I want to get dumped on by this company a bunch of unqualified musicians/writers crap? What's in it for me? Perhaps a cut of the $1000 dollar fee to continue the ruse?

Again, I know nothing about this company. I am questioning the entire concept of the service as described by you. Is it possible it's a good deal? Sure. And some people win the lottery too. But that only costs a dollar to try out. Not 1000 a month. I can imagine a lot of other ways to spend that much money that would come before this deal.

Brian

I was going to look at this website and as soon as I hit it in a browser I got a virus warning. I would suggest avoiding the link for the website for Countdown Entertainment posted above.

I think Brian is right on....

Why a contract in the first place?

Do they get a % of the songs you might,maybe,could be ,gonna get cut? Do they have a references to back up what they are claiming ,people who you can contact?..

that is a pretty pricey tip sheet...Not.
Hey if they get 4 or 5 writers a month to sign up they are not doing bad for themselves..and no good for you...So my point is ::: How many clients/suckers do they have ?...

As Brian said , there are lots of better ways to spend your bucks than with an outfit like these guys ,whoever they are..

Dude

Hi Brian and all,

Thanks for your replies. As I said there is a lot more to it than my very short synopsis. I, too, am quick to be suspicious of offers that either promise too much or cost too much. But in this case I judge that the A-B-C's of music industry deal-making seem to be met (leads appropriate to genre, pre-qualifying submissions, happy clients). So what to do?

I just doing due diligence, hoping to find someone out there who has heard of them, good or bad. Brian, maybe you could ask around?

I'm not defending them but I will add a bit more. They claim to be highly selective in taking clients (my unsolicited submission underwent a review) and I recognize the names of some of their bigger clients and the media they've placed songs with like major motion pictures, network TV, and songs cut by major label artists. They say all leads are specific to your genre and style, that they send you ONLY leads that are looking for your style. The fee structure is graduated starting high, and going lower for a "trial period" of 2 - 6 months, the term is optional. They call this a "retainer" for "consulting." If you get a deal you keep 100% of the revenues, they keep nothing. But at that point they (and you) evaluate whether you will go to a percentage contract just like a publisher or manager or most other industry rep deal. There are verifiable testimonials from happy clients throughout their site and they are willing to provide private references.

They say that they represent songwriters, publishers shopping songs to major labels, producers, recording artists, etc. to what they claim is a selective yet vast list of international contacts cultivated over 20 years.

I bet some of you are considering submitting your music now, right?

I can't say whether a visitor can get a virus from viewing their website -- seems highly unlikely -- but I'm on a Mac and I never worry about such things.

Please visit their website for more information on Countdown Entertainment.

Thanks,

Patti

Patti,

All my instincts from doing this for 9 years is that it's a waste of money. For your sake I hope I am wrong. If you do it and it pays off, please post the follow up and I am sure they'll be inundated with more people wanting to do it. If they take your money and it goes nowhere, be sure to post that as well.

If I was advising you and you were listening, I'd say don't do it.

Good luck,

Brian

I would NEVER pay money for someone to look over my work...with the ambiguous promise of possible contracts later on. Remember...these people are happy to take your money...I checked out their web site...you have to pay them a monthly fee...Sounds fishy. Some scams don't really sound bad at all, huh?

I personally think that these type of slick Hollywood outfits really take advantage of people who live in communities outside of the big entertainment industry cities...people get easily seduced by the false promise that they MIGHT get a contract.

Just my two cents...good luck...and please be careful.

Emily

I really do appreciate the cautions. I *AM* listening. I'm just thinking it over, thinking it through. Brian, would you also advise not hiring a publicist because it might not pay off?

The comparison to a publicist is pretty compelling. A publicist could be hired on retainer (or for a monthly fee) for a 2-6 month campaign for a new release but there would be NO guarantee of editorial coverage or press of any kind, right? We take it for granted there are no guarantees of press coverage when it comes to promo and publicity. That's the nature of the business. Isn't that that comparable to the deal Countdown offers?

For instance, I am just winding up a new CD publicity campaign with The Press House. I loved working with them but it wasn't cheap! $1650/month for 3 months. A lot of leads, a lot of maybe's, but no significant results (yet). Sometimes these things take awhile. So to me, it was worth it.

Perhaps paying a monthly fee to Countdown Entertainment, to be repped to music supervisors and tor receive industry Leads, is an equivalent gamble.

Couple of things about Emily's post: I don't see signing up with Countdown Entertainment as "paying money for someone to look over my work." Heh, that's what JPF sponsor TAXI does! It's a choice lots of people make. Back to me point: according to Countdown, you are paying for Leads and for being personally repped to labels, publishers, music supervisors, who are looking for your style of music. Also, Countdown Entertainment is in NYC, not Hollywood. And as for being seduced by "false promise of a contract," I thinks that's a misreading of what they do. They do not promise deals. Neither does TAXI. No reputable business does, because it's dishonest.


Patti

You don't hire a Publicist in a vacuum. What I mean by that is most people out there do not need a publicist because they have nothing compelling to publicize. What is something compelling enough to publicize? A rule of thumb would be, if you have something that will produce significant profit to you IF people knew about it. You pay someone to help you get the word out because there's a very high expectation that once someone DOES know about it, there will be a significantly positive return on investment which will far surpass the money you spent. Not just break even.. but far surpass.

If you are going to spend 1000 dollars a month on these folks, they should likely result in you making 2000 a month or more in return. If your product (in this case your music) isn't compelling enough to result in that kind of return on investment, then you don't need a publicist. If you are paying someone simply to help you show up on the radar screen, but you have no evidence that once people hear your music they will respond by buying it in large numbers, then you're wasting your money. There are very few unknown artists who can reach those results. Even the really good ones rarely can.

So let's talk about how to mull over whether you need a publicist or promoter.

-A little test run for you. When you do a show for 100 people, do you sell CD's to half of them? 25% of them? 10% of them? If you aren't selling to at least 25% of them, ask yourself why? Why aren't you more compelling to them? If you sell to more than 25% of them, show after show, then I'd say you are so compelling, you need a publicist to get your name and music out to more people who will likely respond by purchasing your music. Remember, the actions of a publicist are so watered down by the time they reach a general and dispassionate audience, that you likely won't really connect with more than 1/2% to 1% of them (and those are very positive numbers for press releases and promotional efforts), and that's only if you're really interesting to them. One acid test is live CD's sales. You have the most direct contact with those folks as you can get in any scenario. That is the best case scenario you have. You are likely to get 1/2% of the % of that audiences interest in you returned via promotion and publicity. So if only 10% of them are interested enough to buy a CD, you gotta figure 1/2% of 1% of 10% will even notice you in mass publicity. That's a tiny number. I suggest that if you aren't selling thousands of CD's a year already, if you aren't doing 100 paid gigs a year, if you don't have a brand new compelling CD being released, then you have no need of a publicist. If you ARE doing those things, then you still have to deal with the percentages above.

-They say a rule of thumb is that you need to reach someone with a message 7 times for them to notice. Let's say that's true just for discussion here. Your publicist needs to reach someone 7 times to get them to notice you. Once they notice, you have to be compelling enough for them to want to buy your music, book you for a show, or investigate you further to advance your career. How many times will your publicist be able to get you in front of the same audience over 1 or 2 months? Once? Twice? Three times if you're REALLY lucky? Guess what? That's not enough by half. Then your time period is over and your money is lost. Bad investment. You likely can't afford to pay a publicist for long enough to make a difference. Without a sustained effort, it's wasted money. That's why McDonalds, one of the best known names in the world, still advertises 10 times a day across all types of media. That's why record labels spend millions to promote even the best known superstars across all types of media (TV, Radio, Newspapers, Magazines, Sporting Events, Street Teams, Nightclubs and Tour venues etc.) The truth is that as an indie artist, you can't afford to BUY enough publicity to compete. So why waste the money?

-Instead of spending that tiny amount of resources on a publicist that, even they do their job very well, probably can't help you, spend it on a great live show, a great local promotional effort including playing out 250 nights a year in your region, being involved in every type of public event that exists in your region (festivals, charity events, sporting events, church activities (if applicable), college events, high school events, political events etc., find ways to get on local radio as often as possible, become a fixture in local newspapers by doing things that are newsworthy, start your own writer/showcase nights where you bring in out of town talent but associate yourself with them at the same time, get yourself set as the opener for every possible touring act that comes through, make sure you have amazing merchandise (pay someone to design your T-Shirt, album covers and website so that it's compelling to those who DO take the time to be interested), join every possible organization on the web and in real life and have a presence there so that people who are up and coming in the industry all know who you are (because often those folks will become the next person working at a label or radio station or media company or make it in the next hot band), leave no networking opportunity uncovered. That's just a few things off the top of my head. All those things will get you a lot farther along than paying someone 1000 bucks a month to give you a tip sheet or forward your music along with anyone else willing to pay that money to the same tired contacts.

This all ASSUMES, you are a great artist with a compelling new CD that people will love. If you don't meet that minimum, then all of the above is a waste of time until you do.

I haven't heard your new CD, but I've been a long time fan of your work Patti. I can think of hundreds of things that are likely better to do than spending it on this deal. I would have also told you not to spend the money with The Press House (and I don't even know who they are) because of all the above reasons.

That said, if you go forward with this company, come back and tell us what they did for the money and what you got out of it. Anytime you don't at least break even on an investment, it's a really bad investment. Now, perhaps they did some things for you that have lasting effects. If they helped you improve and learn about how to succeed, then there's some inherent benefit there. That's why membership to various orgs. are worthwhile if you learn and grow will being a member. But often with publicists and reps, there's no growth and the only thing you learn is how not to waste your money the next time. Hopefully for you, that won't be the case if you move forward. But the last 9 years of doing this suggests to me that I've heard all this before.

Brian

I like your music alot...just checked it out...as of this writing, I did get a ding from BITDEFENDER for some sort of Trojan.Download.HTML.Agent thing when I went to that web site...

Man, there is no way I would spend that kind of money on what has been talked about here...seems there would be many other things you could use the money on more wisely..as a music fan, I'll give you a few examples of INDIE people who are making it and I can't imagine them spending hard earned money on what has been discussed in this thread...I'd talk to them...

Jennie Devoe
Bob Cushing
Harvey Reid
Jana Stanfield (read her book)
Ani Difranco
Zak Morgan

That's just a few...

Jennie is a successful regional Indie artist from Indianapolis. She pays the bills with music and sells probably about 5-10 thousand CD's a release and does shows all the time. She just had her last CD produced by some big shot producer. I have never read of her spending money on something like this. She has had her music placed in TV shows by cold calling. In fact, from my view, she has done everything by cold calling and networking. She knows and is friends with all the best musicians in the area (and some are nationally renowed). She knows and writes with one of the best graphics designers in the world. Everything she has seems to be from person to person, face to face, just plain working her way in. Not from paying for an "international lead". It's because she knows people that know people, and that came from just working with (making CD's and music with) the best people locally. Heck, Amber Brook, award winning artist from here has had things placed in TV shows and I can't imagine she paid money for promotion as discussed in this thread.

Jana is a successful folk artist who has had songs recorded by Reba Mycintire (sp?), etc. She wrote a book about how to make it as in Indie artist (mostly by hard work on your own and trying to build a regional audience - see Jenny Devoe and Brian's past threads - without trying to "make it big - if it happens - it happens"), and I don't recall anything in the book about spending money on things like this.

As independent as Ani DiFranco is, I can't imagine her doing it either...maybe as a mistake early on...

From everything I know about Zak, he made himself by calling and calling and calling schools to book shows. Plain persistance...

And look at Bob - he plays out all the time and from what I can tell pays the bills with music...I really doubt that was from paying someone for promotion...just plain hard work and desire...plus, he's probably too cheap to pay for it...(hahahaha - just joking)...

I dunno, I'll admit my view and experience may be limited, but it seems maybe spending the money on a good entertainment lawyer with contacts or a really good booking agent would be better. Or like Brian said, spend it on your show...

Or wow - here is an idea - spend the $1000 bucks for a plane ticket to Buffalo and a few hours of fees to talk to Stu about things you can do to further your career...probably be the best use of $1000 you ever had...

Thanks for taking so much time on this with me. It has helped me sort it out.

Brian you and I have been doing this this for about the same length of time and perhaps we have learned a little about the limits of our personal reserves and the line between ambition and good sense.

I made the decision in 2005 to quit touring and to forgo "success" for contentment. I don't rely on the music biz for my livelihood. I'll be living here instead of moving to NYC or Nashville or LA. I have my reasons, some of which include an aversion to playing 250 dates a year to sell enough units to make another record to play 250 dates a year to sell enough units... etc.

But I'm still resolved to discover what I can do to send my songs out into the world and find homes for them that generate some income. To find a way to do it without a constant road trip. That's my goal, that's my bidnez plan, such as it is.

Thus the attraction to this and other offers which have the allure of placements and deals for songwriters.

I've done a lot of mining organizations, tons of DIY promo, conferences, showcases, gotten some notable press, won some awards, made some good records... I'm a fixture in the local papers, I've done a lot of local radio and regional in-studio, my songs are played all over the country and satellite, got a couple in soaps and indie films, too... and all that is fine but I have not broken even financially. I'm not complaining. I'm only willing to do what I'm willing to do. Given that, I'm open to suggestions.

Cheers,

Patti

(By the way you should check out thepresshouse.com. You'll recognize nearly all of the artists on their client roster.)

Hi, Patti,

When you read the small print on their web site, they are pretty clear and careful about not being obligated to guarantee much, even though you ARE paying them to shop your music. That's what tells me it is "pay to show." No matter how much they say about matching you up with contacts that want your type of sound...that's what it is. The only difference is...instead of being a shark, they are very up front about their costs and are even more careful to protect themselves legally. I can't blame them for that; all smart business people should do that.

Would you sign up with them if you knew there was NO chance of getting a contract? That's what I mean about false promises....They need you to to believe that signing up with them will eventually lead to a contract...The language on the site implies that you are looking for that. No, it is not dishonest of them, but-- like Brian said earlier, I agree that you could probably do a lot more for your music without paying this much.

They do say that they will match up your music with people that are looking for your style. That's great....However, I have to question that amount of money required to sign up with them. They are running a very profitable business. A little red light goes off in my mind when I hear about these types of arrangements. How would you know EXACTLY what they are doing for YOUR music, especially when they seem to have a lot of clients?? Are they so in love with your music that they'll spend lots of time on it instead of other artists?? Like any business, they need to spend lots of time courting new customers to stay in business.

I checked out your site...
Your music is absolutely wonderful and I believe that your songs WILL get signed. Great material! I can totally relate to your feelings about not touring all the time and wanting to find placements for your songs....As for being handpicked by them...I hear that a lot in the industry, when a company wants to make you feel like it is a priviledge to associate with them and that you were picked out of a pool of candidates. It gives the client the impression that they beat the competition. I guess I have seen so many companies like this....it takes a lot more to impress me...just my opinion.

Good luck and I wish you lots of success with your beautiful music
Please keep us posted.

Emily

As I said earlier, I am a big fan of Patti's. Her song "Land of Souvenirs" is still one of my favorites after we've screened through 2/3rds of a million songs over the years here. It didn't even do that well in the awards (actually, that was a bumper crop year of amazing songs in that category in our very first awards.. all those songs still hold up for me).

Most artists looking for a publicist want exactly what you don't want Patti. More gigs. More notoriety. More of the grind. If you're simply looking for placements, have you tried TAXI? (I think you have in the past, but maybe not). That's only 300 bucks a year (200 a year after the first year) and your stuff is definitely good enough to get placements through them. But beware, there's not often that much money even if you DO get placements. That's why spending 200-300 a year with them is reasonable, but 1000 a month to me is not. Dude McLean posted here earlier and he's the real deal publisher who's been around and done about everything there is to do. (He did a ton of work with Seals and Croft and their hit catalog). He agreed that spending money on that isn't a great idea. I've actually talked to Dude as well as some other honest industry folks about launching a placement service directly through JPF. I wouldn't want it to compete with TAXI and it couldn't be directly through JPF because in this case, it wouldn't be open to everyone. We'd have to cherry pick those involved. But you'd definitely be one of those we'd pick. (Jennie DeVoe, mentioned earlier) would definitely be another). But everything I am hearing about placements is that they aren't big money makers most of the time. It's an ego boost, and a way to develop a career (and get those 250 gigs a year lives which you don't want) but not always great on paying the bills. Risking 1K a month on it is pretty scary. Granted, if these guys have ANY ability to do what they say, you're good enough for them to succeed. I haven't visited their site (and frankly don't plan to) but the vibe is just not there for me. 20 years ago when I first started trying to do something with my own music I may have looked to people like that. Now 20 years later, (and 9 years after starting JPF and viewing all these things without the same vested interest and with a LOT more objectivity) I am usually pretty good on sensing what's a good deal and what isn't. Some criticize me for being too cautious (I think Tammy Edwards recently slammed me for that) but to date I've never had 1 single member come back to me after I told them not to do something and tell me that it was a success. On the other hand, I've had many come back and tell me I was right. (Some post here regularly and can tell you that for themselves).

So, you know where I stand. I think you might research some music libraries and similar companies and see if you can get your catalog placed with them. There are quite a few on line resources that do that right now. (Some I hate, some seem pretty decent though). In those cases, you don't spend a DIME.. but your music is in the database for licensing and frankly, yours is a LOT better than most on those sites.

Food for thought. Good luck!

Brian

You guys are great. Thanks for hanging in there with me. I am convinced. Once again, a few strokes to the old ego got me hooked but at least I had enough sense to ask around. Close call. Emily, I know what you mean about these companies and you made a good point -- I could never be sure if what they were doing for me was commensurate to the amount of money I'd pay them.

Brian It's nice to know that you are still a fan and think highly of my music. If you have any suggestions on music libraries I should try, please pass them on. Here are the ones I am associated with right now: Song Catalog; The Vault; Versus Media. Noteborn Music has also invited me to send music and I'm a member of the Film Music Network.

I know there are many -- any suggestions?

Boo said, "spend the $1000 bucks for a plane ticket to Buffalo and a few hours of fees to talk to Stu about things you can do to further your career...probably be the best use of $1000 you ever had..."

Who is Stu? (See, I resisted saying, "Stu Who?") There's a guy in Buffalo who's worth a $1000 consult ? Shoot that's only a 3 hour drive from here.


Thanks a lot!

Patti

Stu's a JPF member and lawyer who specializes in entertainment law (I think).

He's posted some excellent legal advice here from time to time. I really respect his professional opinions!

Emily

Just an observation for what it's worth (if anything <G>), I take 3 different pitch lists or leads sheets and the three together are only a fraction of the $1,000 a month. I find plenty of leads that pertain to the stuff I write. You just gotta' sort 'em out of the many others they give. You see the problem isn't a lack of leads, it's just that I need to write better stuff.
I'm not familar with your songs, Patti, but I'll go listen. Maybe I'll learn something <G>
Wy

Plus he is a musician in working band(s). Plus, from things he has wrote, he helps to bring along artists. Plus, if I remember Brian right, he has done cases before the Supreme Court (very cool).

What you are looking for is probably slightly different than the norm (I would say most are looking for help with record deals and becoming viable via touring, or help with music legal issues), but to me, ***if you are wanting to spend money (and you have it to spend and want to get good use from it)***, he would be a very interesting person to talk to for a couple of hours...seems a good lawyer on your side couldn't hurt...

I'm sure he would tell you before-hand if it was worth it to consult with him on your specific goals...

Just one of many ideas in this thread, TAXI seems like a good idea also...Brian has laid it out pretty well...

You know what is really ticking me off???...I am in the new music cycle, and there have been three people on here that I wanted to buy their music via download, and their stuff (most recent) is on ITUNES but not on RealAudio/Rhapsody...through no fault of the artist I am guessing...I hate with every fiber of my being to switch over to ITUNES....but if RealAudio doesn't get it together...I'm faced with a choice...

Um, I don't know if I was one of the ones you liked, but I'm on iTunes, Rhapsody, eMusic and many more... just in case
Patti

You are one of those - your lastest (and back catalog) is on ITUNES, but your latest is not up on Rhapsody/Realaudio yet...I'm sure it was sent there, but they don't have it up yet. I've found that problem with some other people too...I know there is some lag time there, but enough time has passed...

I'm not mad at you, I just think that if RealAudio wants to compete, they had better get the stuff on their as fast as ITUNES. They lost three sales from being slow, and maybe my future business...

Look at it this way:::

A hit writer gets how many songs cut in a year? How many hit writers are there all fighting in the trenches for that next cut , be it in a movie or the next CD of of miss Golden Pipes..

A hot writer gets say 10 songs cut or 20 songs cut , thats a lot of down time ..or negative turndowns.So thats 20 up days and 340 down days ...If you times the number of hit writers , and number of the real music publishers , the lawyers who are repping a writer , and so on , then add in the number this outfit reps , you havent taken a better step.

Where ever you live , you might be better off spending that money and going to the places like L.A. and Nashville , and New York to pitch your songs..

You might also subscribe to the "trades ,like the Hollywood Reporter and Variety that will give you info on on productions etc..if that is the area you want to get into,TV and movies.

As along time "real" music publisher I would never pay that money to these guys.With a little work it isnt hard to get the info you need to pitch your materiel.

Im a consultant but I do not pitch songs or acts . I advise and do so for many high profile folks. From record company excecs to producers , song writers,and movie and TV music supervisors, artists and managers etc.I recommend who to see and where to go and so on.....No one can guarantee anything happening , much less getting a song recorded.That is the point i wish to make to you.
It is your money and we could be all wrong . but I'll betcha we are not wrong on this sucker.

Dude

I'll second Dude's suggestions and add one more thing: The Los Angeles trade for music is called "The Music Connection" magazine, and it is an outstanding source for all kinds of opportunities in music in L.A.

Good luck

Emily

Thanks everyone!
Patti

Hi again. Just thought you would appreciate this. I emailed my regrets, declining the offer. They replied with some hard sell tactics, claiming, "it shows the lack of confidence you have in your music." Pretty offensive! (And frankly the language borders on incomprehensible.)

ME:
"To give you some feedback, the cost is just too high."

THEM:
"$$$$ Actually, our fee is quite low, considering we're taking the risk that if you came up with a deal, that you'll want to stop the Trial period and enter a % Agreement with us, which you also keep 100% of the deal, we receive nothing from that deal. Sometimes, when we present the Trial Period we like to see how confident an Artist is in their own success, as most of the time, it's the Artists thinking why doesn't this company get behind me, invest their time and money in me, take all the risks, and just take a percentage?"

ME:
"In my view it is not a reasonable gamble to invest thousands of dollars for two to six months with no guarantee of recoup or return over any period of time thereafter."

THEM:
"$$$$ Well, you're wrong here, because we guarantee your music will be heard by professionals. If you think about it, it shows the lack of confidence you have in your music. Think about it, with the kind of connections we have around the world and the opportunities we provide, that you don't think your music can score not even one deal to make it worthwhile, then how could Mr Citkovic secure a deal for you if we took all the risks and just asked for a percentage? What you're saying Patti, is that you don't think you'll come up with a deal for your music with our major connections, in any time frame Mr Citkovic offered. Yes, we can't guarantee you a deal, but we wouldn't work with you and put our name on your project if we didn't think our time was worth it, but again, we can guarantee your music will get listened to and give you a chance, but even with that, you don't think you'll receive a deal?? Remember: It's not us that gets you your Deal, it's your Music that secures it. We just put you in position for that opportunity, but you have to have great music, believe in your success, especially with all the product you have, and be ready to take advantage of the opportunity we present. Your music would get listened to, as we provide Opportunities! I hope our Trial Period made you think and consider a few different things, and that's a good thing. All the best to you...
Warm Regards, Ms Lovie Jones, Countdown Entertainment (Hire A Consultant)"

----------------
Patti

If that is a verbatum recap of what they said they are quite full of BS. It reads like a lame time share spiel. Seriously.. that's about as sleazy as I've seen. Thank god you were smart enough to listen to advice and stay away from these shams.

Brian

Hey Patti,

I don't get it. If your music is so brilliant ( and no offence to you here ) , then why don't they want the usual publishers cut which because you're going to "make it" would equate to thousands, or tens of thousands of dollars. Them throw money away ? Not likely, more likely to charge the artist, do nothing and provide nothing ( all prefectly legal ) and do it many times over to secure a gaurenteed income.

Another example of the "shared responsability" business model ? Probably so, with you paying the money, and them taking no responsability. Something is amiss.

cheers, niteshift

Yup, that's verbatim. I overcame my reticence to publish a private conversation on the web because this reply revealed the true nature of the deal. What a bunch of double-talking hard selling car dealer (no offense) BS. Thanks again for all your support,

Patti

Hi, Patti,

Thanks so much for sharing this. By showing us their "true colors", you have undoubtedly saved lots of other songwriters from wasting precious money.

As I have said earlier, your music is really beautiful, and I am sure that some good things will happen for you soon

Emily

Patty,
Yeah, thanks for sharing! Wow, those CE guys have quit a sales pitch, I mean, with the kind of prices they want to charge, they have to do a lot to make it sound virtually "risk free" when you/we should know better.

I'm glad Brian and the rest of the crew here "smelled" this one a mile away, but CE's job is to throw out the bait and reel in three or four artists "catches" a month. Yup, that's all they need to make good living at it.

By the way, I checked out your website and was totally blown away by the quality and elegance of it's layout and design! Right away I knew this wasn't an ordinary "off the shelf" website, but something highly customized and geared just for your act! Again, the impression was "Wow"! I had to go back twice to see if I was dreaming or if this was real.
I wanted to know who worked on it and found it was:
http://www.ancientwisdompro.com/

Hope you don't mind me mentioning them here, but really, I've never heard of them before. Even more impressive was when I went to their home page, they were featuring you on the top right side of their vertical column. From there a link took me to their blog page which gave more info about your website project.
http://www.ancientwisdom.cc/news/archives/49

I like the way they say:
"Add a dash of content management functionality and a few pinches of natural goodness, stir, and POW: you’ve got Ancient Wisdom’s latest treat."

They sound like highly trained Madison Ave. ad executives!
Very cool that they're on your team!

Ok, enough fun for one evening!

All the best,
Michael

Thx for the feedback on my website. I launched the new Flash site in the midst of this thread. It's brand new. Ancient Wisdom is a local company here in Ithaca, NY, USA, and its founder is a friend. They've been great to work with. But my hosting (HostBaby.com) isn't quite robust enough to make the site load quickly. Not sure what I will do about that becasue I love Derek Sivers' babies, like CD Baby and HostBaby... I was an early client of both and I've been faithful to them.

This is all off-topic so I'll end here, but thanks for the feedback!

Patti

Patti,
Very cool about your connection with "Ancient Wisdom"!

But I'm surprised that Hostbaby isn't robust enough to make the site load quickly. I know Derek has been doing a lot of hardware/speed upgrading lately, so I'm sure things will be improving. I should mention, I've been with HostBaby for the last year and haven't had any problems with them.

As a matter of fact, I'm currently showcasing a short Flash music video on my News/Videos page here:
http://www.michaelborges.com/news.html
I haven't had any problems uploading or playing it.
Maybe you can try playing it sometime and let me know.
All you have to do is Click and play!
If you're using Internet Explorer (browser) you may need to click twice. Once to activate the Flash, and a 2nd time to actually play the video.

Not to get (further) off topic, but do you have an actual speed test to determine what's happening, or are you going by "feel" to determine relative loading speed? Just curious how you can tell. Also, maybe you can talk to Hostbaby tech support and get their input. From my experience, they have a very helpful service team!

Regards,
Michael

Hostbaby hosts this site. We get a half million unique visitors a month and rarely have problems. Just about any internet site will have ups and downs based on all sorts of things out of their control. And the best thing is that if there IS a problem, Ryan at Hostbaby will get it fixed as fast as humanly possible.

Brian

Patti,
Brian is right! Besides, it could also be your own internet connection. My neighborhood is now on FIOS, (Verizon's Fiber Optic service) so it's blazing fast! Probably that's why I have NO problem loading your site and browsing around and hearing your music while downloading another song at the same time!

If you are using dialup or cable, it will be relatively slower compared to highspeed DSL or FIOS services. These details can make a big difference!

Take a look at what you have and then let us know.
Also, sometimes your web programmer can "tweak" the coding to cause faster loading.
Might be worth asking about if you are still concerned.

Cheers!
Michael

Hi Patti,
I have read this posting a few times and just wanted to let you know that my vocalist and I were a part of Countdown Entertainment for a year and just recently left them. Unfortunately we left them due to some personal tragedies that really slowed us down. In their defense I will say that the leads we received were "high quality" leads that I honestly don't think I could have found on my own. Some of the leads were from top name movies, labels, etc. We also found some great connections that we still have from COuntdown Entertainment. Although we did spend some money that was not recouped, we learned gained some valuable connections and learned some valuable insight into the "biz". I actually took the time to go to NYC and meet with James Citkovic and was impressed with his knowledge and honesty. He will tell you that he makes NO GURANTEES. I realize that you opted to not go with them so maybe this a dead issue for you. My question to anyway out there is WHERE DO I GO NOW to find these high powered leads. I feel like I'm back to square one-----even though I recently sold 20 songs to Harpo Productions (the Oprah Winfrey show). SO if anyone out there knows where to get tip sheets let me know. And thanks for the information from everyone concerning this issue. I just thought Countdown Entertainment and James Citkovic deserves their fair response also. If you're interested don't hesitate to call James. One of the things I'll miss is the availability of James to answer my many questions. Also in his defense, James helped me many times avoid shady deals and contracts and even helped me with contracts that didn't involve him or his leads, including the Oprah deal. Best of luck Patti. Awesome music and web site!!!!!

They are a complete scam. I would suggest anyone looking into them to stay far away and keep their wallet even further. The information they offer isn't anything you can't find on your own. There are much cheaper sources that have the same info online and some even for free. They prey on emerging artist and pretend to be the good guys. I don't even think they listened to more than 1 song on the demo. I used their services for about 3-4 months and the only thing they ever talked about was "when I was sending them a payment". I had more success getting my own hands dirty than with their simplistic leads.

The contacts on the list I doubt they even knew, as when people contacted me back for music they never even heard of this company. Most real demo shoppers or consultant services already know you(the songs) and the person that's sent them the music. With these guys they just collect checks and send out tip sheets.

Of course James Citcrookvic is a smooth talker he'll blow smoke up your ass like nothing else. Telling you about this and that, and even invite you to his office, so he can bs you face to face. That's all fine and dandy but you don't pay 1K a month for a conversation you pay so someone can go get you a deal. This idiot had me write a fake letter of recommendation to get him nominated for an award. That says a lot about the people your dealing with there.

The music industry is full of leeches and they are everywhere but if you work with a leech, at least make sure it's one that's doing at least the smallest bit in your favor (like medical leech).

Being scammed by them was the biggest regret of my life. I hate to see others who might be potentially scammed by these kind of groups. The best advice is to get your hands dirty,mingle,make contacts, and work your way from there. With myspace,youtube,linkdin, and the like there really isn't a reason to waste your time and money on services like these. Like I said I was able to reach some A&R's at some major labels by myself. It wasn't at all easy and getting a placement is not a guarantee but it's your music, and it's your career. You only get back what you put into it.

I hope this helped someone I lost close to $4K with these crooks because I didn't know anything about the industry and put trust into the wrong people (Countdown entertainment). A valuable lesson learned.