JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Industry Message Forum You spent a money on a demo but still have no cut

Indeed I had ordered a demo but still didn't find a home for the song, so what?

Ok, this is advice that wise people tought me: if your demo has a broadcast quality, then you can license it for TV /advertisment / games etc.
Still, there is one "but" - placement of a song is commercial use of a demo and you should have so called "release form" signed by all musicians, singer(s), engineer(s) who take a part in recording and production. And demo studio will charge more high price for their job in such a case.
Next: there are services that propose placements: TAXI, broadjam etc. but they charge for subscription (as a rule) and for each submission with no warranty of a placement.
So, as for me: I look at their proposals and see if there are free ones.
For example: modernbeats.com sent me an invitation: "Your profile earned one free submission" and, of course, I submitted one beat.
Next: there are services with no subscription fee or charge for submission,
their policy sounds like: "...if you earn money then we earn money, no up front payments" I think it's just promotion of a new services to grab their part of a market.
Examples? Here you are: musicdealers.com, weshopsongs.com, themusicnetwork.ca

I'm member of TAXI forum (not TAXI itself) and read posts from members like this:
"I've been a member of TAXI for last year and had no placements although submitted multiple songs",-
do you follow my thought? - I had no placements last year too, but I spent no cent for my submissions.
Hope I've brought something useful on a table and would love to see ideas, proposals on this thread from others too.

Hi Alek,

Thanks for mentioning the companies with no upfront fees. There should be no upfront fees because they should have incentive to place songs in order to make money, just like the musician. I had a very nice placement with Music Dealers last year, plus a couple of small ones.

I think there are many, many people looking for placements today because other markets have dried up. This means lots of competition for the available slots. You have to present a song that is perfect for the requirement. And the people on those forums may have great music or horrible music.

Is it easy to do business with someone in the Ukraine? Do you have access to Paypal or other banking services like we do in the US?

Any money you spend on anything,demo costs, costs of trips, costs of placement, song pluggers, etc. is just the "price of admission" to play on that particular playing field. If you went to a football game and there was a door prize of $1000 or so, just because you bought a ticket would be no guarentee you were goinig to get anything. Just that you were not eligible AT ALL without one.

Same with any fee you pay at all in the music business. And your competition always pays a LOT more than you do.

MAB

It's really not that hard to get deals if your work is really good. You may get poor deals, but nonetheless you'll get deals. So when you get nothing, you may have something thats out of date or is not up to a quality standard. Even if it sounds cliché, there are a bunch of writers that pitches average material, that'll always fall short in the batch of songs that are submitted to each opportunity. A song mostly will have to beat a hundred others in direct competition, because every opportunity is about one song, with lots of contenders.

Recently I submitted to a commercial gig, and the writer who won it was my mentor. He's a grammy nominated songwriter and producer, with a top of the pops studio and professional chops, and has credentials in the Quincy Jones league! So, here was I following the exact same lead. Just to show the writers competing out there are skilled, professional and submits awesome work in every respect! We really do compete with the best, why our work, if to be competitive, can't be average or just "good".

So, you don't mention anything about the quality of the actual work itself, Alek. You don't want to belive you've got a turd, who wants that, but people in the market might think it is, no matter how polished it looks. So, the business side of music calls for a more direct, sometimes even profane language, directed towards your own products. After all, writing is about being creative :-)

But quality matters. No matter what people say, it's still about music. Relationships yes, but people group together because they like what each other are doing or in someway believe in it. So, it's still about the quality of the content, raw material or whatever you want to call it. The fact that relationships are important doesn't compromize that.

That's what happens so often with music from amateurs. Anyone can write a lyric, anyone can put a few simple chords to it, anyone can send it to a studio and buy the musicianship and production chops from a studio. In neither of these steps the word quality is mentioned. No one dares to say there's such a thing, but we all know there is, regardless the back-scratching culture that leads to turd polishing.

Now, I'm not saying you have a turd. God forbid! Sometimes things takes a lot of time, especially the part of getting to know people that believe in what each other do. But I know I have a bunch of turds, in fact, I need to write a bunch of crap, to get to the good stuff. The hard part is to get real with yourself. Even when I think it's good, the feedback may not match your own emotions. You have to ask yourself, if you are writing every day to an extent where you honestly can tell the good ones from the bad, or have you bought just a tiny bit into the contemporary consumerist myth that you can buy yourself a hit song? And do you write something that stands out? Something that comes from you, and not the infatuation with success we all struggle with?

Anyway, keep pitching. It's the only way to know how the market responds. And keep writing, it's the only way to more marketable songs, Keep listening, it's the only way to develop. Keep loving, it's the only way to be..

And know when to stop when you start babbling.. just felt in the mood :-)

Colin, thanks for reply, as for PayPal - I use it 3 years,
as for business in Ukraine...hm I could write a book about it,
sorry, have no time to do, but, do you know how I could
call that book? Here you are:
BLACK BOOK HOW DO NOT MAKE IT IN A GREY BUSINESS IN UKRAINE

Hey Alek!

You can find many music libraries here: http://musiclibraryreport.com/ Many of these libraries get good film/tv placements.

Broadcast quality? Subjective. Seems everyone has their own definition of that term. However, most listeners know immediately if it's broadcast quality. Strange phenomena.

Any agreement you have, make sure the publisher includes licensing fees. Never know if or when you'll collect PRO royalties.

Good luck, John

P.S. I'd start with a non-exclusive agreement just to test the waters.

John thanks, and perfectly right you are about "strange phenomena"
Now the story: I've got 2 demos - the same singer sang my
songs over beats - one beat of mine, and another by producer
from UK, so, I brought them both to my friend, who has very
expensive "multi kilo bucks" Hi End system to get honest review
of a sound (my friend doesn't like my music and judges sound only), so what? He said that my beat sounds better and only
remark to a singer's voice volume. About another beat(not of mine) he said: it has plastic none-natural sound, wow! - I sent
it in forums for review and most of people said: "It's cool!"
If somebody wants to compare those recordings I mentioned, here you are:

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=8558970

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=8381491

Hi

The second version is the BETTER one. I almost wanted it to not even go in that direction with that beat,as it was making for a very lovely theater or movie sound track type song. Ya know "Titanic"
That beat gave it more of an Ace Of Base (older late 90's pop group) or typical type pop vibe which is fine. But the song is more dynamic, melodic, musical more natural and more appealing in the second version.

The first track is closer to radio, but still would be a tough bet to compete with the likes of Gaga or a Beyonce.

All the best

Mike, thanks for your time and reviews, by the way my opinion
fits yours.
Trained ear is very important and not so easy to achieve,
the matter is: you hear that something is wrong in your mix
but what exactly? Only experience and advice from pro can help.

Hi Alek...I too had a listen to your songs and agree with Mike.
My thoughts are that the overall sound is a bit muddy and jerky in places. The singer has the wrong type of voice for that kind of urban music......and as Mike states the overall "midi" type sound is a bit dated and unsophisticated compared to the pro samples and sounds that modern studios can produce. It is a very very tough market to compete in even if you have the required songs, connections and the gear and sound associated with it.
Broadcast quality is as already stated subjective but IMO your recordings fall way short of being radio ready and have a dated home produced midi feel about them that is just not acceptable in todays marketplace. I would suggest you concentrate on writing more traditional acoustic type pieces as opposed to electronic instrumental type pieces which all sound dated and out of place for you.

Alek,

This takes us to a discussion that has been going on in other threads on this and other sites. The sound and quality of demos. It is VERY HIGH and even the most basic writers now are going to very high levels of demos to even get started. A result of the Internet putting everyone into the game and pushing the beginning quality up very high.

This is a pretty expensive business now to even get started. You should listen to a LOT more stuff and see where you stand in the overall marketplace. It is usually much higher than most people even understand.

MAB

Hi everybody, thanks each for inputs to a thread.
Marc, where do you know from, how much music i listen to?
Answer is: I listen to much more than you think, yes, and this is mostly hip hop. Well, why this one?
Answer is: my strongest side as a composer/songwriter is rock music but when I ask any band to write a song for, they always reply: "We make our own stuff"
Well, if they count them as Paul McCartney or Freddie Mercury then, ok, but, heck,
I don't hear in nowadays, such acts alike or better than, Led Zeppelin, Queen, Pink Floyd and other classics...
Only one band from UK found me itself to write for them (now they perform couple of my songs).
And other hand, many rappers who heard my beats ask to use them, so, what should I do? Answer is: to listen to hip hop to make those darn beats.

Hey Alek,

I don't think Marc was insinuating that you don't listen to a lot of music, I think you'll find that pretty much everyone here listens to a huge amount. I think he was asking whether you listen to a lot of songs that are also being pitched and are at the lower levels of the music industry. Hang around soundclick and listen to some of the other urban stuff on there. Much of it is pretty awful, but there are some amazing home-made beats there too.

I listened to both pieces and I thought they sounded a lot like Kate Bush which was great... in the 80s. Ace of Bass is another great comparison. It honestly


I'm far from an expert on Urban music but if listen to something like Lady Gaga or anything else topping the charts you'll find a LOT of melodic and rhythmic complexity along with some very clever sounds.

Here is an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrO4YZeyl0I

Listen for the scale of the synth at the beginning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2smz_1L2_0&feature=relmfu

Skip to 2:00 to avoid the non-musical intro and listen to the complex rythm and also the more modern hand clap sound. Once it gets going listen to the synth layering below the vocals. Again, there's a lot going on and NOTHING stays the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn6-c223DUU

Listen to how everything builds through the intro and then how it changes between the chorus and the verses. Also listen to how realistic the drum sounds are and how the snare sounds almost like a real snare drum.

I don't mean to be a pain or demeaning, but this is what you're up against. People can make these at home, I lived with two guys who made stuff this good when I was in college.

That is what you're really fighting and that is your definition of broadcast quality. .

John

Alek,

I am talking about people pitching themselves and the current competition you are up against, which isn't always what you hear on the radio. I am talking about artists and writers who are trying to submit just like you are, but many of them are doing much more quality than any of us have because they spend a lot of money.

It is often mentioned that music in the mainstream industry (where the real money is made) is much like products at Walmart or any National chain store. You are not going to just be able to walk in and put your product on the shelf. You are going to have to first be competitive in the eyes and ears of the people who are in that market.

What other people have said to you is how I feel. The offerings you have posted don't sound as contemporary as the people you are competing against. This is not a slam against you personally. This is the reality that we all have to deal with in this business. We are up against a LOT of competition and the bar is much higher than most people ever realize.

MAB

Your right Alek, and MAB knows as well as I that bands are out for songwriters to get songs to. Also right about the bands, every rock band today combined doesn't not equal just Queen alone. But since none of today's pop rock groups have to compete with the likes of Queen, Zep, The Who and countless others. They are just fine and dandy, I'm actually thankful as well I want nothing to do with having to compete with them

Writers who want IN THE BIZ on it's highest paying level have three choices... 1- Hip Hop/Dance Electronic Pop 2- Boy Band or Teen Pop..
Now with #2 that often means it has an Urban Style to it. So it is based in that more so than a song that would have fit John Denver... That dopey "Fridays" song for example or the even worse new Kim Kardashin song.. It falls under the same kind of Pop. Danceable usually and programmed made.

#3 Country - This is where all writers turn to who perhaps loved all the GREAT Softer Rock of the 1970's it's also where those who liked commercial hard rock of the 1980's, Yeah Keith Urban is JUST like Bon Jovi it's a perfect match up. That is why Bon Jovi is still so relevant today instead of GONE like the other hand bands of that decade. People who loved 70's soft rock would find Country the easist transition, fans of The Eagles, Gordon Lightfoot and wonderful story songs, John Denver, countless others,,,
Taylor Swift makes it even more wide open to what is acceptable for mainstream Country. She is it's biggest ambassador world wide right now. That's because she sounds more like early Avril Levine than she does Loretta Lynn. She sounds POP!

I commend you and guys like Doug Buche here for stepping into these territories out of your safer zone. It's not easy to do, straight off the bat mentally it's a hard obstacle to over come. I have the ability to cross over into any one of those worlds. I just don't have the oomph required to try it or try it anymore.

Sometimes when I see someone is struggling with this kind of effort and really taking a beating getting anywhere, I often remind them. Stay with your strengths! Don't forget them, sometimes they are what can get you anywhere at all and can lead to other things. Play into your strengths.
Your strength to me Alek is in composition, you have scoring chops, and I feel make for a wonderful writer of film music and ballad pop, theater, play music. Listen and follow our own John Lawerence Schick's threads. he's like that as well, in that world.

I know the big score dream is in the three things I mentioned, we have to ask ourselves, besides being able to even get someone to listen at that level of success, those kind of labels and publishers, do we want to commit to that? Give up what we are stronger at or truly enjoy. Some have no option on what they can do musically so they dont have all this extra trouble they have my envy in that regard and they aren't tortured musically or in there everyday mind.

So study the angles and try our best to weigh out WHAT we have, what we can do, against what we WANT and will need to acquire it.

All the best, keep on punching in any direction you aim.

Mike