JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Musician Message Forum In search of the lost chord

As an amateur musician, self taught, I have to admit that I am very disappointed with classical musicians.

I have a problem in that I am not classically trained and have only a rudimentary knowledge of writing music properly ie my scores do not include dynamics or technical instructions. For me this is not a problem, I can add dynamics by ear when I produce in the studio. I do not speak the technical language needed to communicate with professional musicians and this is proving to be a stumbling block, not to me, but to musicians who do not seem able to function without having someone to tell them exactly how to play a piece. It is as if they need to be programmed like a machine using the score as the input device. Leave something out of the score (dynamics or articulation) and they malfunction, can't do it.

My problem is I lack knowledge, I know this ... but I use my ignorance in a positive manner in that it does not stop me being creative, in fact, I see it as a positive that I am able to bring a freshness and an originality that is lacking in modern contemporary compositions. I don't want to use this blog to knock contemporary music but I do have a few valid criticisms. The lack of rhythm and melody is one, the intellectual appreciation of 'clever' music (Stockhausen etc) is another. My problem is minuscule when I think of the innate problems that musicians seem to have when faced with a composition that leaves some decisions to the conductor or musicians, their problems being a lack of creativity or the inability to interpret for themselves or the courage to impose their own style or technique on the piece. These problems do not exist in the rock/pop world and are deliberately ignored with jazz musicians who just play it they way they want anyway ( sometimes to the extent of not even playing the correct notes!!).

Their will be no classical uprising as long as classical musicians, arrangers and conductors are trying to replicate exactly what the composer intended. Beethoven, Bach and Mozart etc gives the musician no choice about how a piece is to be played, they expected the musicians to be like machines, to replicate exactly what is written. However brilliant the masters were, and they were brilliant, they are old and every time their pieces are played the listener knows what to expect ... but we have all heard them and we can compare the renditions of different orchestra's and offer our subjective analysis of the performances and there does it end.

Unless classical musicians and arrangers move into more modern times and embrace new compositions and new composers classical music is stuck in the mud with the masters, the intellectual appreciation of music is a false appreciation and classically trained musicians need to cease to be snobbish about music, and make no mistake this is a real problem that is holding you back. There will be no classical uprising until classical musicians use their knowledge to help those who are creative produce new classical music that can be embraced and loved by non-musicians. If you keep playing the masters and never introduce new composers to your repertoires orchestral music will continue to be appreciated by the small minority of intellectual musicians and the public will be deprived of what is essentially good music, even the best music. The best example of this is the reworking of pop songs into classical pieces performed by an orchestra (was it the BBC orchestra that did this, a few years ago).

OK so I have said my piece, hopefully someone out there will listen to what music I have posted on the site and decide that it is worth being performed by their orchestra's, it is un-ashamedly tuneful and rhythmic and to be enjoyed by the public ... not objectively lambasted for being simple or populist by the elite who have not created anything like an uprising in orchestral music.

I have not yet worked out this link thing ... this was a blog I originally placed on Dilettente but did not get any responses, in fact I don't think anybody read it. If you would like to listen to what I have composed go to the website and type in Puddleglum ... sorry best I can do at the moment. Thanks

Best to you,
Johnny

Well yes, I said as much, but as I always provide a version to listen to, I don't think it could be too hard for them to use their knowledge to fill in the gaps and add some dynamic markings etc. I could understand it if they were just presented with a score but as they have a reasonable version to listen to it should not be impossible for any trained musician to work around it.

I may be an amateur but my music is not, I have had one piece of mine played by a small ensemble and the conductor was brilliant and helped a great deal. I thought the piece was simple but it turned out not to be (Catalectic Overture) can be found on Dilettente.

I think the point of my article is that there are people who have not had the advantages of being taught music or of learning an instrument from childhood that can produce quality music and that sometimes they need a little help which does not seem forthcoming because trained musicians always retort "it is amateurish" and therefore not worthy. Professional musicians should have no problems working with people who have less knowledge, they should actually find it easier.

Communication is the problem. I consider, against all the odds that I 'can do': professional musicians 'won't do'. And that is there problem ... I do understand that if I took a rock song to them and asked them to write some orchestration for it, that would not be a problem but if I do the same with an orchestral score they will not, for reasons I do not understand. I could understand it if they turned around and said it is rubbish and they didn't want to do it but the reactions I have had is that it is quite good and I know that if a professional took my work and did a little work on it it would be well received.

Thanks for your comments anyway ... isn't this what a forum is for.

I think you're making hasty generalizations about trained musicians.

John

Quite possibly, I don't really know any, but I would love someone to help me out and prove me wrong.

Quite possibly, I don't really know any, but I would love someone to help me out and prove me wrong. I am speaking from observation and a little experience. I am a music technology student but because of the music that I would like to do I find myself in the middle of two different types of musicians with no allies on either side.
I go to a uni in UK which specializes in contemporary electronica acousmatic music but I write classical music. The gulf that seems to exist between the two camps seems unsermountable. Each rejecting the other where-as I embrace both to the disgust of each, I add fx to my classical compositions which I write on a computer using Sibelius, I play guitar but prefer to use a computer to write ... which classically trained musicians don't like and because I prefer to write for real instruments the other side don't like.
Yours Piggy in the middle

I've know quite a few trained musicians. There are plenty here on JPF. But I think you're referring to classically trained musicians. I knew two great ones.

One was concert pianist Paul Schocker, my mentor. May his kind, generous soul rest in peace. He instructed me on piano. Hardly a snob. He loved Scott Joplin. Joplin's complete works were shelved right along side of the Beethoven Sonatas and Chopin Etudes. He respected good music - period. Even good music in the rough (and mine was rough).

The other was composer/ publisher Sherman Storr. I sent a couple of my early piano compositions to his publishing house (Alacran Press). My manuscripts needed a lot of fine-tuning. He not only re-wrote, printed, and published my first piano solo, but paid me for it as well. Pretty darn generous with his time and talent in my book.

Sure, you'll find the elite snobs in all walks of life, but I truly believe they're in the minority. As far as expecting an orchestra conductor to perform your work, most often they'll turn an unsolicited composer down regardless of his ability. There are just so many hours in the day. And what you're seeking gobbles up plenty of time.

Your best bet would be to get associated with a small chamber orchestra in your area. Volunteer to help out in any capacity. Even if it's doing some mailing for them. Soon you won't be looked at as an outsider and they'll be more likely to consider your compositions. If nothing else, you may get some good, sound advice.

Good luck, John

Music is like every other business.. you earn you way forward through credentials. You get credentials by involving yourself positively in musical communities and thereby get contacts that might lead you to something behind the closed doors, if you are a humble, accepting and acknowleding kind of human being, realizing you don't just walk in and take others livelihood because you think you have a slicker attitude.

It's quite the opposite from student environments, where it's about establishing identity by differentiating yourself from others, and prove how smart you are.

So, the tone in your rant is proving your amateur status, not the opposite. That may well be a hard lesson for you. Some never get the written nor the unwritten protocol of the pro circuits, but that's really what you need to learn IMHO, if you have talent and music to back up your ambitions..

Hummn,
I'm not sure what you are asking. Conductors usually attempt to get a somewhat original but identifible sound out of the Orchastra. It has been known over the years that each Conductor will interpert a piece somewhat different and will attempt to get that sound out of the Orchastra so there is differences rather than stuffy repeats of the work.

Not all new works were sucessful at the first public outing so it may be that one of your works needs time to settle in.

On the other hand if you are attempting to write oddball stuff that seems difficult to interpert or play you will just have to be patient or go to a school of music and get more knowledge and clarification.

Schoenberg was such a Composer.

Thanks I have been unfortunate to meet a few elitists and I know that sooner or later I will meet or contact the right people. I generally have a lot of respect for people who play any kind of instrument and my criticisms are not really directed at musicians but the establishment which unfortunately is often run by the elite.

I have never sent any unsolicited scores to anyone, I have only responded when new composers work was publicly requested.

I don't actually need my work to be played, I would just like it to be played and see it as a two way thing, orchestra's need new works other than "contemporary" works which are not very popular outside of that elite musicians circle, mine are definetely pop compositions. Anyway a little controversy never did any harm, and thanks again.

Music is not a business ... it is an art form and if you attain credentials by buttering up the musical communities then you can keep it.

I don't do music because I hope to make a living from it, I do it because I am able to, because I love it. I was never asking to be paid, that was never my intention and I do not use my real name because I am not interested in the fame or glory of it ... I would like people to listen and like my music (who doesn't) but the arrogance (not humble, accepting or acknowledging) of the musical establishment is why punk, hip-hop and techno/dance music is far more popular than any of the high artistic forms of music. And yes this is a shame ...

Yes I may be ignorant of music theory and communication but that does not mean that I should not try and produce the best music that I can nor should it mean that I should not express my thoughts and opinions. It also means that my music should be judged with the ear not on how well I can flatter the music communities by conforming to what they expect.
I do not mind being an amateur because I know how creative I am and it is creativity that is important, I create music from nothing with no real knowledge or training and my credentials will only be established when people listen to my music and enjoy it. I do not need the music industry to do what I do, I have a computer and now-a-days that is all a man needs ... how much talent a man has will always be debatable ... but that is a different subject.

Where-ever you find my music on the internet it is free to download ... I lead by example not to follow conventions long discredited ... the world is full of greedy people and the music industry is not an exception even if they like to think that somehow they are. Music is only a business to the greedy people who want to make money and the music industry does not have a good reputation for the way it treats it's musicians. Long live the freedom of the internet may all your downloads be free.

Quite like your music, exactly what it says on the tin, I have no problem with country music despite my background being rock music. In terms you can understand I am a bit of a maverick and I do exactly what I please because I have nobody else to please, you can listen to my music on Dilettante and judge for yourself. Don't take me too seriously, I don't.

I suppose you would have told Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Tchicofsky, Cole Porter,George M. Cohan, George Gershwin, WC Handy, Bob Dylan, Paul McCartney, John Lennon, George Harrison, Jimi Hendrix,Paul Simon,Carol King,James Taylor, Burt Bacharach, Elton John, Bernie Taupin, and every other writer,artist, musician,sound engineer, music copyiest, producer, builders of the equipment, designers of software, musical instrument makers, luthiers, music stores, sheet music, CD manufacturers, truck drivers, and the families of those and all who have ever had a connection or living from music they should do it for free and as an artist should simply starve right?

They paid to see Shakespeare's plays, Michealanglo's sculptures, Divinci's paintings. Art has been commerce which is business for thousands of years. From the time when it was commissioned by Pope's, Churches, private citizens, Kings, Emperors, all the way to the modern age, it is most certainly a business and an integral part of communities and culture.

All the way to people who run stores with music in their background, resturants, bars, music at beaches, lakes rivers, people who have weddings,funerals, churches,music and art generates income from millions of sources.

If you don't feel you want to lower yourself to create commerce with yours,give what you want away, that is fine. But to denigrate others for doing so or denying the historically obvious is the ultimate in arrogance.

MAB

I would have no problem with conductors interpreting my music as they feel, in fact I welcome it. My music is not oddball or difficult to interpret, quite the opposite really, it is light and commercial. Thanks anyway.

No not really, but there is nothing wrong with earning an honest crust doing other work and having music as a hobby.
My point is that making money is not my ultimate aim and if people were to want to pay money for my music I would be quite happy to be paid for it but not on the internet. When I pay money for music I like I want a solid copy ie CD or Record not a crummy mp3. which is fine for streaming, but it does concern me that many people cannot afford to see bands or live performances because they are to expensive and someone has to stand up and say that this universal greed has to be curbed and prove it by their own actions.
And yes if I am arrogant in my denigration of those who use music to exploit people then hang me for it!!

Not being formally trained on any instrument, I can't comment on that end. I'm self-taught on piano and clarinet, both of which I haven't played in years. I did take a look at your site and you seem to have some neat compositions. Miscommunication between people who play by ear & people who read sheet music doesn't appear to be that unusual, and some of the best musicians I've ever heard can't read a note. I wouldn't knock classically trained musicians though. My guitar teacher was brilliant - best teacher I've ever had, hands down - and managed to communicate more in less than a month than I could have done alone in a year. Now it's up to me to get back to practicing!

On the art v business thing, well, that's a pretty heated debate too. But lots of folks still make their living that way, Puddleglum. Music lessons, instruments, recording equipment, voice lessons, touring budget - it's all a huge investment. Not everyone has the luxury of time or money to do this as a hobby, although pretty much all of us start out that way. If you want to make your stuff all free, fine. Perhaps someday you'll choose otherwise; for now it probably can't hurt your exposure. But I see nothing wrong with the desire to make a living out of doing something you love.

Thanks for bothering to take a listen to my music, I don't take myself too seriously and I like a good argument/discussion, I don't knock musicians in general, trained or otherwise but I do find that the music industry has some very unsavory practices that exploit musicians and music fans and that these are very prejudiced and exclude a great many people who simply cannot afford to buy goods and services and I can understand why people download music copy-rited music and use cracked programs. I never had the money to invest in the things you mentioned so I had to teach myself, but my life was changed completely by technology when I got a computer because before that I just had an acoustic guitar and a handful of self-penned songs and then suddenly I had a thousand instruments and the means to arrange the music in my head into an audible form.
I had years and years of musicians telling me I couldn't do it because I didn't have the knowledge and now I can prove them wrong. I do actually know quite a few musicians and many of them cannot write anything even though they have all the knowledge that I lack.
This discussion seems to have strayed from what I originally meant it to be but for me it has been an interesting endeavor, and like most artists I am glad I got some reaction.
Thank you everybody for your input, don't think to badly of me I've always been a little bit outrageous and controversial just for the hell of it.

Take SOME responsibility in what you don't know.

Best to you,

Johnny D

Hi I can see you were defending yourself and I don't blame you. My intention was to have a heated argument/debate and I never cared too much about what kind of impression I make, any kind of impression will do, so don't take me too seriously.
How-ever I must say that I could not afford music lessons, nor good equipment nor any of the other music related services that you refer to but I did spend most of my spare money on records (you remember them) and CD's. Financially all this is denied to a great many people, all the masters Beethoven etc were paid by kings and their music was not heard by poor people until modern times when recordings and equipment were mass produced and cheap enough for poor people to afford.
The music and entertainment industry had always been geared towards the middle classes untill the 1950's ... rock n roll was universally condemned but the same people who condemned it as the devils music were quite happy to exploit the teenage market in the name of profits, the same with the hippy generation in the 60's, punk rock in the 70's etc etc. Does this make it good or right.
I do not really blame anybody for making a living out of music but like everything else in life it is never a level playing field and the poor are very often denied any chance to break into what is essentially a very middle class occupation. I think you need to consider how lucky you are and remember that it is very often poorer people who pay your wages.
Historically the rich have always oppressed the poor. I have noticed that every time a working class man speaks the truth a middle class man calls him "arrogant" as if he had no right to speak at all. I never said that people shouldn't make money out of music or art I only said that it was not my primary objective, I don't do music to make money, I do it because I can.
Before you answer this post I would suggest that you take a little time to listen to what I have done. It does not matter whether you like it or not only that you understand that I created it from nothing with nothing. Thanks anyway, I have quite enjoyed this discussion.

I'm amazed that everybody seems to think I was talking about them personally ...

Hahaha dude seriously, you're on a forum full of music pros telling people their industry is corrupt, and you don't want to take music theory, and musicians & related professionals who try to profit from their work are "greedy." Might not quite be what you meant but that's how it came out. Yeah, folks're gonna take it personally, because if you aren't talking about them directly, you're probably talking about someone they know.
There are some incredible, crazy talented folks around here who will bend over backwards to help you out. Give 'em a chance to do it, ok?

Yes I know life is fun!! I would love to take music theory I just never had the opportunity. I seriously did not think I would create this much hostility but I must have touched a raw nerve somewhere.

What you said sounds like a guy who has figured out how to glue two pieces of PVC pipe together not being taken seriously by a licensed plumber.

And prehaps you are a plumber who can't figure out how the moron next door has fixed his plumbing but it all seems to work fine before you judge me why don't you listen to what music I have produced and judge me on that.

Nice country songs a bit Johnny Cashish but nothing wrong with that ... shame Johnny Cash did it first.

http://www.dilettantemusic.com/search/site/Puddleglum

here's your link !

now copy and paste it where you need to add it

Thank you so much, this is the kind of real help that I appreciate and people can get there easily and quickly. I've only been on the Internet for about 6 months and I don't know these things.

http://www.dilettantemusic.com/search/site/Puddleglum - apparently this is the link to my Dilettante page. I hope I've done this right.

This thread is old and I agree with some of what you said. I work at a university with a music department and some of them are quite snobbish but then again, so are many professors. I've met two violin professors there at different times and asked each if they ever played fiddle music. One of them got indignant and the other one got amused and she and I bantered back and forth. I know a classical guitar prof and he is snobbish at times when he's doing his classical stuff but when he's rocking or doing Beatles and Elvis he's as down to earth as anybody else. I haven't told any of these professors but I have told other people music departments should teach people how to win on American Idol as much as teaching them anything else. I don't think they'd like to hear that.

All creative people are a little unique in their weird ways though.

I'm not a musician but when you're talking about a classical uprising not happening, I just can't help but think about how classical music has survived hundreds of years. I've found in recent years that I sometimes have a longing for "really good" music as opposed to "good commercial recorded music."

Thanks a lot I'm glad I'm not alone, I asked on my coarse if it was possible that one of my module choices could be music lessons but was told no ... even then I took orchestration and passed it quite well ... which technically I shouldn't have been able to do.

I really am quite suprised at the ferociousness of some of the replies I really didn't expect that.

Again thanks a lot,

The only other thing I find interesting on this particular thread is about the "Rich and powerful" abusing the poor,etc.Every songwriting,artist, musician, producer, label head, etc. I know now (and I know just about every major power player in Nashville and have for much of the 22 years I have been here) have all started with literally nothing and worked their way up.

They have all had the same challenges, the same problems. They all overcame their obstacles by hard work, sticking with it and developing something the public bought into in one way or another. There are no free rides.

The biggest problems of threads like these are from people very far removed from reality when it comes to anything in the entertainment business. And painting that picture with a very broad brush which is based from information based on or limited to third, fourth, fifth, or tenth hand, (particularly in the Internet which has about an 88% total BS rate)is a flawed way to base information.

What myself and most of the professionals here try to do is give explinations responding to certain questions or comments and give an "other side of the desk" approach to what we do. We try to paint a picture that shows the good and the bad and give information that most people can disseminate, use in their informational tool box and then make their own decisions.

The only thing I ever ask is that people state their opinions but also keep in mind that they are just that. Opinions. Try to make them as informed as you can. And if you don't care what you say or how you say it, that is fine, but be prepared to deal with the results of those decisions.

As someone said, you never know who is reading things that are said. Many songwriters, artists, etc. I know that are trying to do something in music end their careers long before they start simply because of attitudes that are exhibited.

All of these threads are opinions, none are totally right or wrong and some have various levels of validity. All of this is about getting as many as you can then utilizing the experiences of others to help yourself.

MAB

Valid reply no problem ... I have decided that we actually have a culture clash here. If this was an English website rather than a predominately American website I would have had a dozen people saying "Good for you, well done", In England there is not actually enough venues or opportunities for most musicians to make a living unless they are very successful (in that case they usually end up in good old USA making their living) so most active musicians actually have two jobs, one to pay the rent and one to make spending money ie doing gigs etc. In England you would not be classed as in the music industry ( you are a teacher, yes) and you would be part of the Education system rather than the music industry.
I kind of got a bit offended by being labeled "amateur" even though it was the first thing I said, it was more the tone of voice which offended me rather than the reality of it and so I reacted.
I think you have probably listened to some of my stuff and realized that I do have some kind of talent even if you didn't actually like what I do.
All is forgiven on both sides I hope. Thanks, it was quite a good argument and I have kind of enjoyed it!!

"In England there is not actually enough venues or opportunities for most musicians to make a living unless they are very successful (in that case they usually end up in good old USA making their living) so most active musicians actually have two jobs, one to pay the rent and one to make spending money ie doing gigs etc."

Sounds familiar...