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#751649 - 09/13/09 01:15 AM
Re: President Obama might get Health Care right!
[Re: Scott Campbell]
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Bill Robinson
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 02/28/04
Posts: 6190
Loc: Curmudgeonville, Tn
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Bit of a thread drift here, LOL
Scott
I won't argue for a second that the death penalty should be used very carefully. There is no doubt in times past folks were executed that were innocent of the crimes they were convicted of.
But on the other hand. Consider life without parole. How inhumane is that? What if, after 30 or so years in prison it is determined the person is innocent. Big deal, you didn't kill him. You just took 30 years of his/her life. I'm not sure which might be worse.
I can't imagine being locked up for 30 years.
And I don't think those 30 years should be easy either. 4 walls and a cot.
The only reason the death penalty costs so much is the unlimited appeals and type of housing they have.
All that said I believe we will see fewer innocent persons convicted on questionable evidence now. DNA and improved forensics should help a lot. Who knows, it may turn out that more people are convicted than before and they will have to build more prisons to house the lifers. 
But some are guilty beyond all doubt and their crimes are heinous. There is no way they didn't do it. I see no reason for those to not be executed after one appeal within one year. That would cut the cost considerably.
Why is it not a good idea?
I can tell you if a person raped and murdered one of my granddaughters and there was pure indisputable evidence they did it I'd pull the switch myself.
Edited by Bill Robinson (09/13/09 01:20 AM)
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#751652 - 09/13/09 01:48 AM
Re: President Obama might get Health Care right!
[Re: Bill Robinson]
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Duncan Wells
Serious Contributor
Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 509
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Wow Bill, you want me to spend an evening entertaining you by responding to your unrealistic fears? Sorry, bud! I have other things to do. I will respond, only, to your double negative: "There is NOTHING in the bill that says Illegal aliens will not get free health care."
There is also no proof that you didn't have a homosexual relationship with Brian Austin. Do you see how that works, Bill? Any statement in a serious discussion that contains a double negative falls flat on it's face and renders any serious discussion pointless. There is no proof that I didn't father Michael Jackson's kids either. Go ahead, Bill! Prove that I didn't father Michael Jackson's kids. Again, do you see how that works? I can't entertain you on these types of double negatives. I would be wasting my time And the reason I called Joe WIlson a liar is because I have the right to free speech too; just like Joe Wilson does.
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#751653 - 09/13/09 02:42 AM
Re: President Obama might get Health Care right!
[Re: Duncan Wells]
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Bill Robinson
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 02/28/04
Posts: 6190
Loc: Curmudgeonville, Tn
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I may not be the sharpest tack in the box but I do not believe that statement is a double negative.
Now if I had said "There isn't NOTHING" or "There ain't NOTHING" I think that might have been a double negative.
But who cares?
But I am tired of your snide comments and personal attacks so..
I have decided that I will exercise my right to push the ignore button. Some things just are not worth it.
I suggest you read the bill and see if you can find one place that says illegal immigrants will not get free health care just as they do now.. But my guess is you are content to allow illegal immigrants to abuse our health care system so what's the point.
Edited by Bill Robinson (09/13/09 04:23 PM)
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#751662 - 09/13/09 05:43 AM
Re: President Obama might get Health Care right!
[Re: Gary Gray X]
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RE_Goldenbird
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/09/05
Posts: 174
Loc: Brattleboro, VT, US
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I mean those same bleeding hearts don't believe in the death penalty but if it was a member of your family or friend that got mudered you'd be the 1st in line to want to pull the switch on that rascal too that committed the crime .
Actually Gary, that is the reason I don't support the death penalty. If someone did something deserving of the death penalty to one of my kids I would want to kill them myself. Meaning it's a crime that we, as a society, think someone should die for comitting. I think it should be my resposibility to take the sin of murder unto my soul. By having the state administer the death penalty it sort of spreads that sin out amongst all the taxpayers of that state, some of whom wouldn't willingly do that under any circumstance. I'd be for the death penalty if the convicted person had to be executed by a family member.
Edited by RE_Goldenbird (09/13/09 05:48 AM)
_________________________
"Wave your flag, wave the bible, wave your sex or your business degree
Whatever you want -- but don't wave that thing at me"
-Bruce Cockburn
I'm just a verb living in the body of a noun.
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#751682 - 09/13/09 08:40 AM
Re: President Obama might get Health Care right!
[Re: RE_Goldenbird]
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Doug Heard
Serious Contributor
Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 497
Loc: On the Road USA
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I don't see where giving the government the power of life and death is a good idea.
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#751686 - 09/13/09 08:59 AM
Re: President Obama might get Health Care right!
[Re: Bill Robinson]
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Scott Campbell
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 10861
Loc: Lakeland, FL, USA
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Bit of a thread drift here, LOL
Scott
I won't argue for a second that the death penalty should be used very carefully. There is no doubt in times past folks were executed that were innocent of the crimes they were convicted of.
But on the other hand. Consider life without parole. How inhumane is that? What if, after 30 or so years in prison it is determined the person is innocent. Big deal, you didn't kill him. You just took 30 years of his/her life. I'm not sure which might be worse.
I can't imagine being locked up for 30 years.
And I don't think those 30 years should be easy either. 4 walls and a cot.
Pretty much agree with you here, Bill. I just think that if someone did spend 30 years locked up for something he didn't do, you can at least do something for him.
The only reason the death penalty costs so much is the unlimited appeals and type of housing they have.
Agreed. But how many more people who didn't commit the crime would have been executed if not for this process?
All that said I believe we will see fewer innocent persons convicted on questionable evidence now. DNA and improved forensics should help a lot.
Agreed
But some are guilty beyond all doubt and their crimes are heinous. There is no way they didn't do it. I see no reason for those to not be executed after one appeal within one year. That would cut the cost considerably.
If you can be 100% certain, I agree. I wonder if the concept of "reasonable doubt" is used even in death penalty cases? If "reasonable doubt" was replaced by "absolute certainty" only for death penalty cases, I could live with it.
When summoned for possible jury duty one time, I watched a lawyer carefully explain what reasonable doubt was to the first group of jurors. Then he gave a hypothetical scenario that was clearly designed such that there was reasonable doubt that the person committed the crime. Then he asked them how they would rule. Guilty! 
Why is it not a good idea?
I can tell you if a person raped and murdered one of my granddaughters and there was pure indisputable evidence they did it I'd pull the switch myself.
Me too. But under the current practice, there might be a possibility they got the wrong guy. I wonder what it would be like to look into someone's eyes as you pull the switch on them - and then find out later they didn't do it....
In any case, while our views are not the same, they are not as far apart as one might have thought. If you and I were in charge of coming up with a plan to reform the death penalty, I think we could come up with something we could both live with. I suspect this is pretty common really. I think it's mostly outside agitators with hidden agendas (on both ends of the political spectrum) that make people think they are further apart on things than they really are.
Scott
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#751703 - 09/13/09 09:59 AM
Re: President Obama might get Health Care right!
[Re: Scott Campbell]
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Bill Robinson
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 02/28/04
Posts: 6190
Loc: Curmudgeonville, Tn
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In any case, while our views are not the same, they are not as far apart as one might have thought. If you and I were in charge of coming up with a plan to reform the death penalty, I think we could come up with something we could both live with. I suspect this is pretty common really. I think it's mostly outside agitators with hidden agendas (on both ends of the political spectrum) that make people think they are further apart on things than they really are.
Scott
Scott
I believe it is this way with most things. Reasonable people can always come together to find a reasonable solution.
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#754269 - 09/23/09 10:03 AM
Re: President Obama might get Health Care right!
[Re: Duncan Wells]
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John W. Selleck
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 3463
Loc: NJ
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I really hate to pick on this one because the facts are kinda off. 80%? The last # by all the polls I've seen was more like 42-45%. It is also easy for actors etc.,most of whom make lots of money themselves, to pick on them. What it really breaks down to is that our insurance companies were doing just fine until the system got overtaxed by exorbitant tort rewards by the courts, medicaid and medicare fraud; and free medical care to anyone who can find a way over our borders. Once the health care system started charging the insurance companies more to make up for those, they were in a world of trouble. The way to fix it is to get rid of the problems that caused it, not punish the people who are paying their taxes and for their own healthcare by making them pay for everyone else.
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#754283 - 09/23/09 11:06 AM
Re: President Obama might get Health Care right!
[Re: John W. Selleck]
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Gary Gray X
Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 2461
Loc: TEXAS
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what I heard and hear from the doctor's point of view is that if this passes alot of them will take up practice out of the country or retire, so sometimes it's best not to muck with things and this is one of them.
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#758904 - 10/10/09 02:51 PM
Re: President Obama might get Health Care right!
[Re: Gary Gray X]
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Mackie H.
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 09/20/09
Posts: 5683
Loc: NASHVILLE, TN
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ALL:
I grew up in poverty--we lost everything in the depression before WWII. Way back in the hills where I wandered, we didn't have free anything. We worked to LIVE! There was very little government of any kind. People were independent and proud. Welfare was a condescending thought, unless the neighbors or church participated.
As a kid growing up, I was raised as a conservative democrat, now I favor what is considered middle of the road, not represented by either party.
After working more than three decades for the federal government, I am against about anything congress passes into law--so much corruption and kickbacks coupled with fraud, there is not enough money in CHINA to pay for all the programs--Our individual freedoms are at risk, with so many social programs.
I can see the hand writing on the wall, with my eyes closed!
Somebody has to admit, our treasury is broke, and start the belt tightening. 1951 money would buy 12 times as much, as today's dollar.
WE HAVE A COMMON PURPOSE--LET COMMON SENSE BE THE DRIVER!
Respectfully,
Mackie Humphries
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#758924 - 10/10/09 04:09 PM
Re: President Obama might get Health Care right!
[Re: Mackie H.]
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Gary Gray X
Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 2461
Loc: TEXAS
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I know about the depression very well my father was born in 24 and in a town with less than 30 people and nearest town 20 miles away, and now he's 85 and he says these days is worse than back then
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#759046 - 10/11/09 07:48 AM
Re: President Obama might get Health Care right!
[Re: Gary Gray X]
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John W. Selleck
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/07/07
Posts: 3463
Loc: NJ
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It still looks like the Dem's are trying to put the public option in using the back door. Now they say they want to make it one of a variety of choices. It will still make it impossible for the insurance companies to compete with a government backed system that offers benefits at little to no cost to anyone except the taxpayers. This is what President Obama has been talking about all along. With one foot in the door he has said it will be only a mnatter of time before we have that "Single Payer" system he wants so badly. I, for one, sure hope he doesn't get it. If he does the taxpayer loses again.
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