JPF Home Page Forums Week 46 MP3/Lyric Pick: "I Just Shot The Sun"

Hi Folks,

This week's pick by Pat Luboff for the Mentor Critique is Lucian Shepherd and C. Hussey's "I Just Shot The Sun." She will be posting her critique on Tuesday this week to give folks more time to repond, so starting now we'd like to get all of your critiques on this. Remember, lyrics/mp3's are not chosen on what is best or worst, but rather what will make for an interesting educational discussion of what was done well, what can be improved and basic building blocks for writing strong lyrics and songs. Please jump in and then once Pat posts, see if you noticed the same points.

Thanks again to Pat and everyone who has already participated. If you didn't get chosen (or didn't enter) and would still like a Professional Critique by Pat Luboff, please check her website at http://www.writesongs.com/.

For now, let's hear your thoughts on Shepherd and Hussey's entry! Remember that they should not post a response until AFTER Pat posts her critique. Pat should be posting her thoughts on Sunday night.
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I Just Shot the Sun - Words & Music (c) Lucian Shepherd and C. Hussey 2008/9

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7223748

Verse 1
Why do we play this crazy game?
It all seems pre-determined to be played in vain.
The Moon's been in my sight but I held fire on the gun

I play for higher stakes
The Moon won't change my fate
So I'm shooting for the Sun

Verse 2
You think I lay here dead and a beaten man
But great will hides in the shifting, winding sands
It drifts along, buried growing ever strong

Though I'm quite bitter
I never was a quitter
And my moment's yet to come

Chorus
I never had a Heart
Got me a hand of Spades
But I'm without the Queen
Well hell I'll bleed her out with my friggin' ace
And I will be a King, just for a day or maybe more

You laughed at me and said I'd
Never be no-one
Now you're laughing in the dark
Cos I just shot the Sun!

Verse 3
How does feel, friend, to be trod upon?
And my foot treads lightly 'cos I remember where I came from
You'll never quite know the pain of the cast aside

So don't choke on your pill
The ride is in the thrill
And I will see you in another life

Chorus

Though I'm quite bitter
I never was quitter
And I waited for my time to come

I took a knock or two
But I stayed firm and true
And I went and aimed that gun

And I pulled back the trigger
As I heard one last snigger
And then I just shot the Sun!

Greetings, Pat and songwriters Shepherd and Hussey.

I'm only going to critique the lyric as my ears are burnt out from mixing. I think you have a fine sense of meter here, save a word or two. It sings well without any music.

I do think, though, that the hook "I just shot the sun" could work better with some significant rewriting.

In verse one, line six, why not say "so I'm shooting for the sun (?) then it's not such a stretch to get from that to your hook. Also "pre-determined" could be simplified into something as simple as "set" and then sing better: "It all seems set to be played in vain" nothing lost in the simpler line.

I think shifting to card game metaphors works against your lyric. I'd chuck it out and save it for a whole "card game as metaphor" song and use that space to show what happens to the singer. Apparently the singer has succeeded at something, cuz he/she just "shot the sun" OR...are you pulling a "switcheroo" here, and making the hook mean something completely different?

Another way to read this is like "My Way" via the "Gunfighter Ballad"...(I took a knock or two/But I stayed firm and true/And I went and aimed that gun)...I do get the sense that the singer has actually shot some one with all the bitterness near the end, and especially "see you in the next life" STILL, I feel it's important to clarify the mise en scene.What is happening, where and to whom--or your hook does not resonate very much. ("He's bitter, but what's shooting the sun got to do with it, either metaphorically or literally?")

Another way to read it is--the singer wants to shoot the person he's singing to, but at the last second aims at the sky instead. If so, get rid of every red herring, and make this literal "sun shooting" the bridge, and your song makes more sense to me.

Just reading through this and not listening--I could here Shane MacGowan (remember "the Pogues") belting something resembling this out, in a drunken Irish 3/4 stupor (it reads well in waltz time). In fact, that version would need the least editing (just the card game metaphors would still need to go), because Shane's persona would lend an understanding to couplets like "And I pulled back the trigger/As I heard one last snigger", but unless you get a singer with such a persona (Nick Cave? Johnny Cash in the 60s?), who would be able to sing it and pull it off?

My best advice is to clarify to yourselves what your lyric is about, and try to only convey those ideas, losing everything else. If there is some hidden action going on, why not unhide it? Was there a shooting? Show it. Did the singer's sun shooting mean he/she achieved success at something? If so, please share what that something is. Don't try to use "shot the sun" in too many ways or it becomes confusing, because it's not such a common phrase that one can multitask it successfully.

--Mike

Good and interesting selection. My earlier reviews of some of Lucian's stuff were hampered by what I thought were very "hot" and un-listenable mixes. I am glad to report that this mix is much better -- although I still believe the vocal is a little too hot compared to the backing track.

Music: I'm comfortable with this type of music and I like the way he builds the tune up to the chorus where it all peaks. So good construction, there. The chorus (or is it a lift-chorus?) doesn't have enough of a hook to really support the title. Overall the music supports the song, but I would like to see maybe more twists in the music to keep my interest and drive home the hook.

Lyrics: This is a one theme type song which really reminds me of "Like a Rolling Stone" where it is singly focused on one's disdain for a single person. But the lyrical structure of "Rolling Stone" really separates the verses from the choruses. I think this tune could use a real segmenting of the verses from the chorus. I don't understand the whole "shot the sun" versus moon imagery, so the lyrics are not having much of a visceral impact on me.

Overall: It's gonna be a hard one to pull off, being that it is a "Like a Rolling Stone" knockoff type tune. However, streamlining the verses, making the chorus more the "center" of the song and improving the hook will probably make it an enjoyable tune to perform.

Even though Lucian and I have had "miscommunications" over on the MP3 board, I am glad he has joined JPF and shares his stuff. He is definitely not a cookie cutter writer!

Kevin

I disagree with the knocked off "Like a rolling stone" comment. This song does have some early Dylanesque moments but it stands apart. With a different arrangement it could be a very good contemporary rock anthem song. There are a few issues that should be addressed however.

Lyrically it needs a bit of trimming and tidying up as some lines are a bit cumbersome to sing. I am sure some folks will pick up on that and make suggestions.

There does not seem to be an easily followable format or structure. The verses and choruses seem to be all mixed up and confusing as does the rhyming patterns.

There is no real hook or truly memorable line however there are a number of lines that if repeated could be.

"You laughed at me and said
I'd Never be no-one
Now you're laughing in the dark
Cos I just shot the Sun!"

That could be a great chorus if repeated.

I would simplify the song format down to Verse chorus ...V ch and repeat last chorus. Something like this.

Why do we play this crazy game?
It all seems pre-determined to be played in vain.
The Moon's been in my sight but I held fire on the gun
I play for higher stakes
The Moon won't change my fate
So I'm shooting for the Sun

Chorus
You laughed at me and said I'd
Never be no-one
Now you're laughing in the dark
Cos I just shot the Sun!

You think I lay here a dead and beaten man
But great will hides in the shifting, winding sands
It drifts along, buried growing ever strong
Though I'm quite bitter
I never was a quitter
And my moment's yet to come

Chorus
You laughed at me and said I'd
Never be no-one
Now you're laughing in the dark
Cos I just shot the Sun!

How does it feel, to be trod upon?
My foot treads lightly I know where I came from
You'll never quite know the pain of the cast aside
So don't choke on your pill
The ride is in the thrill
I'll see you in another life

Chorus
You laughed at me and said I'd
Never be no-one
Now you're laughing in the dark
Cos I just shot the Sun!

Repeat Chorus.

Recording wise I do agree that the levels are a bit high and there is a lot of distortion. That is easily sorted out with a bit of practice and reducing the levels.
I also suggest that there is too much passion and this causes you to shout sometimes rather than sing. It might be a good idea just to hold something back in the performance. Nothing wrong with the melody just needs a tweak on the format and performance.
Vocally it might be an idea to record a couple of takes and select the best bits from each version into the mix.

All in all it is not a bad effort and has great potential.

I had trouble trying to figure out what the song is all about. The hook seems to be a play on the term “shoot the moon”. I looked up the term in the Urban dictionary and found that one meaning is related to the card game of Hearts, specifically when you attempt to collect all the heats and the Queen of Spades. That would explain the lyric’s reference to those face cards. If I actually played the game, I might have some insight into the metaphor applied to this lyric. The “character” singing the song has been dealt a bad hand apparently:

I never had a Heart
Got me a hand of Spades
But I'm without the Queen
Well hell I'll bleed her out with my friggin' ace
And I will be a King, just for a day or maybe more

I think "I shot the sun" is a refererence to the "higher stakes" as the sun is much bigger than the moon.

..."I play for higher stakes
The Moon won't change my fate
So I'm shooting for the Sun..."

But I don’t play the game so I may be missing something relevant.

I kind of like the song even if I don’t know what it is saying. Technically, I can barely make out the structure and the only part that seems clearly part of the chorus is:

You laughed at me and said I'd
Never be no-one
Now you're laughing in the dark
Cos I just shot the Sun!

If you sang that with harmony, I think it would be effective.

It is an interesting to say “ I shot the sun” and I guess it would follow that it would be dark after that (if the shot was fatal). Interesting, but I am not persuaded yet that the metaphor is working. This lyric is much more opaque than other songs that are about a desire to “get even”, justified or validated. The Eagles, “Already Gone” is probably my favorite. Toby Keith’s “How do you like me now”, is a good example. But those songs talk right to the point. In this lyric, you have introduced cards, and a play on a phrase in addition to the theme of a “cast aside” who feels disrespected. I think you have too many ideas going on here.

Having said all that, the song itself has a kind of appealing lilt that kept me interested. With a little more form and some restructuring here and there I think you might have something worth keeping.
Pat probably picked this because she sees a “ remedy” for whatever ails it. Listen up because you get a rare chance to hear from an industry professional.

I liked the craftsmanship on this, vague and open to interpretation as it was!!Congrats Lucian...!!....

I think this song deals with a lover...who's been cast aside...
The lover was down for a long time...grew bitter...but
bounced back after realizing the Queen wasn't the only queen in the sea.. The Queen is also the Moon.

The lover (Singer) has been cast aside in other ways...throughout life. The Queen just goes on her merry way...not knowing at all what it feels like to be stepped on in the least bit...until now...and even then...the Singer
is doing his stepping lightly. I get a feeling the Queen has
led somewhat of a privileged life in a variety of ways...where
the lover (singer) in the song...has had to try hard and fight for everything he's had.

I think it's a song where he's saying....Ok look at him now....He's in the process of letting go of the Queen, trying to convince himself...and Her of it...all the while feeling a bit better about himself...because he's evidently found another
lover. (The Sun)

That was my lyrical interpretation....but maybe I should go back to musing about the life and times of critters....

Enjoyed my read!!!..Lucian.....
I'll go in and listen and come back and edit.....

Best...
Kaley

I don't have speakers so I can't listen, which is just as well since I haven't a musical bone in my body.

I don't really know what to make of the lyric though. Are they playing an obscure card game in the desert?

The language strikes me as somewhat stilted, so "friggin' ace" seems out of place.

I can't figure out if this is about a jilted lover or maybe some guy who has been a whipping boy for the person the singer is directing barbs too, as he gives him his eventual come-uppance.

Certainly interesting, if too obscured in its metaphorical content for me to follow well.

EDIT I got to listen this morning. I like the melody. A professional rendering should be especially nice.

Hi lucian
Thanks for sharing this song.

When we say shoot the moon it means you are gunning the impossible that can be possible, just like hitting a jackpot in lottery or finding aliens from outer space. When we say shoot the sun it means trying to hit impossible and no chance this will be possible just like hitting a jackpot and not betting any or finding god who lives in heaven.

The melody is catchy and I still remember the verse notes especially the "pre-determined" that can be cut to one syllabic word. Dont change the melody I insist.

Your 1st and 2nd verse is really powerful even though he can reach for the moon he still gun for the impossible. They say love cannot be bought you have to earn it. Similar to trust so easy to earn it but when you lose trust there is no way you can regain it.

Even this guy will become so powerful there is no way he can get his dream so his trying the hardest way and somehow doing the hardest way will earn him something.

Being a man sometimes we cant help to be bitter, but aint a quitter is a good quality because hes doing something to reach his goal.

Heres your chorus... It tackles symbolism to me

I never had a Heart (So hes loveless)
Got me a hand of Spades (Hes still everpowerful with a sword)
But I'm without the Queen (Without a wife or a partner at the moment)
Well hell I'll bleed her out with my friggin' ace (His ace is his shooting the sun)
And I will be a King, just for a day or maybe more

(Probably a king for a day, yes, why not and what if the sword of DAmocles still hangs with a thread of his hair then it will be forever. This make sense in your chorus especially the last line so keep it.)

You laughed at me and said I'd
Never be no-one
Now you're laughing in the dark
Cos I just shot the Sun!

SO this is a pessimistic view of the 2nd person because he was in disbeleif of the 1st guy action in shooting the impossible.

The 2nd verse looks a 2nd person who is talking now. Probably he is already been there (shot the sun)

So don't choke on your pill (hes telling the 1st guy go get easy)
The ride is in the thrill (Just enjoy life)
And I will see you in another life (its hard hitting the sun its a goodluck give your best shot and tell me your story in another life)

and the last verse he went out inspite all around him is making fun of him he aimed his gun and EUREKA he hit the sun Bulls eye.

my sugs.. Go get a very nice country singer that can croon like Tim mc graw

Lynman

Card games work well for a general sense of gain or loss or chance.

Don't draw the Queen of Diamonds, boy
She'll beat you if she's able.
You know the Queen of Hearts is always your best bet.

But this treatment of hearts is like saying if you're going to hold 'em in Texas, bluff on the flop and go all in at the river. Unless they play the specific game, it doesn't mean much to the listener.

Lyrically, what I found puzzling is that something happens to make the narrator come out on top in the first chorus when he shoots the sun, but I don't have a clue what it is.

He's down in the first two verses, then on top after the chorus. No hearts and a handful of spades without the Queen is a really crappy hearts hand. He apparently hung in there and won or else got lucky -- shooting the sun is also a term from hearts -- and then he's rubbing it in to someone who somehow opposed him.

(In some ways it sounds like he literally shot that person.)

Without some idea of what the narrator is talking about, how do we come to care about him? Is the game love, a parental relationship, a bully, a boss, social justice, American Idol?

Maybe the idea is to be vague and let people apply their own meaning to the conflict, and maybe it's just me that doesn't work for here.

Hi Lucian,

After many attempts to comment I have come to the conclusion that I don't think I "get it". My first thought is that it's simply an "I've been down so long, got nothing left to lose so I may as well go for it" song, whatever "it" may be. But there are so many images and metaphors, there may very well be more going on that I will not know about unless you tell me.

So, without fully understanding what you're saying, I'm reduced to suggestions on how to say whatever it is you're saying in a more streamlined manner. This is something you should do throughout the whole song, whether or not you choose to change the format. Big Jim had some good organizational ideas. For example, V1 second line could be like this:

"It's pre-determined and played in vain"

The first part of V2 may sing better like this:

"You think I lay here a beaten man (you're obviously not dead)
But great will hides in the shifting sands (sand doesn't wind)
It drifts along, growing ever stronger" (if it's drifting it can't be buried)
Although, I'm not sure that shifting sand grows stronger as it drifts so I'm not sold on this metaphor.

There is such an urgency in your songs and in your delivery, a lot of energy and soul. I think that's a good thing. You may not want to make your message obvious for block heads such as myself, but making the lyric more accessible, along with the other stuff will, I think, take your songs to the next level.
Whatever else you do, keep writing.

Ricki

I really like this.

I can't tell whether I don't exactly get it because you are using terminology for a specific game or because it's slang that I'm not familiar with. I suspect the former.....

I think to fully get it, I would have to know whether "shot the sun" just means "I went for it" or "I went for it and succeeded". Or something else.

V1 and V2 suggest to me he is down but not out and his day is coming.

V3 suggests to me that he must have done something to raise himself because he is looking down on someone who once looked down on him

So that thing must happen during the chorus. Not in the first part because he's still taking about the future. So it must be the shooting the sun part but I don't know what that means....

That's just my analysis - not a critique. Frankly I'm not sure what to suggest because I don't quite get it. But I'm coming down on leaving it as it is. It's well-written with cool lines so who cares if we don't exactly get it? We don't really understand why the diplomat carried a Siamese cat on his shoulder either but we (or I anyway) sing it loudly...

OK - I'd change the ending - a little awkward going into the last line. Cool song though....

Scott

I found this confusingly interesting. I'm sure there have been many songs employing card metaphors (Elvis' "From A Jack To A King" and Juice Newton's "Playing With The Queen Of Hearts" come to mind), but the ones I recall have always been easily relatable, even with the most rudimentary knowledge of a deck. This one...not so much.

After reading it all, I'm now thinking the opening lines sound like a petulant child who is losing and therefore disparaging the very idea of being involved in the "crazy game." But then comes the pronouncement that the singer is not only going to play, but take it to the "limit" (excuse my card game metaphor ).

I don't know...this will likely be a killer ( ) song to the millions...or is it hundreds...who are familiar with this game. Of course, an established artist could cut it, and if the sound was "aces," it could be a hit. The downside is, for those of us who would love to score one that actually makes it to radio, a song has to work on so many levels, and there is certainly no lack of awesome undiscovered songs available (bet we all have at least one! ), that you might be...rather than shooting the sun...shooting yourself in the foot by opting to write one that is a bit too obscure/puzzling to the mainstream.

I like the tune moreso than the lyric, though taken as a whole, it is an interesting ride.

BTW, I don't quite get, "The ride is in the thrill." Shouldn't that be reversed?
ew

First off, I do not understand the lyrics or the subject matter. Perhaps it relates to a card game or video game or certain expressions that I am unfamiliar with, but they do not mean anything to me. That does not automatically mean I don't like it - I don't know what Neil's After The Gold Rush is about either, but I like the song!

Musically, the melody is pretty good and the chord pattern is pleasing. I would not have known the chorus was the chorus if I wasn't reading along.....it could stand to be more hooky or differentiated and I think shorter.

The instruments are the best part of the song. They are well played and recorded, although I would vote for more stereo separation in the mix. The vocal is soulful and intense but off pitch in several places.

All in all, I have mixed feelings about it. The lyrics are very much in your face and are an important part of the song in its present form, so they have to draw you in. In my case they do not, with the exception of the actual hook which has a nice ring to it. The music is pretty good and with the right lyrics would work well.

I will be looking forward to Pat's comments.

Lucian & C:

Here's my take:

TITLE
-----
Excellent title. It's attention grabbing and intriguing. More and more I think this is the most important aspect of the song. It has to stand out to be noticed and should serve as the central idea of your song. I think your title is a good one.

OPENING LINES
-------------
The opening lines work for me - lyrically, melodically and musically. After the first two lines I was very interested in hearing the rest of the song.

STORY
-----
I'm not sure I got the story. It seems like there is a card game that is a metaphor for the story, but I'm not sure how it all works. My first thought was that the main character finally succeeded (at whatever) and was telling someone who didn't believe in him, "Screw you, I made it!" A closer examination of the lyrics and several hearings didn't deepen my understanding. This is an area that might be worth improving...although I will say that I enjoyed this song every time I listened to it even thought I'm not sure what it is about. Honestly, I grew up with plenty of songs I didn't understand (i.e. Springsteen's/Manford Mann's "Spirits in the Night.") So for me it isn't a deal breaker. (But for a publisher...)

LYRICS
------
In general, the lyrics are interesting and sing well. Again, I'm not sure what they really mean, but other than that...

CHORUS
------
The chorus could probably be a little more distinct from the verse. The whole song flows pretty well, but I never got the sense that I was being prepared for the chorus and then hit right between the eyes by it.

MUSIC
-----
Fantastic. This totally worked for me. From the little pause at the end of the simple intro to when the bass and drums kick in at the end of the first verse to the overdriven guitar in the chorus - it all worked. I noticed that the melody was a little different on the first line of the verse following the chorus from that of the first line of the first verse. I preferred the melody of the first line of the first verse.

HOOKS
-----
I thought the melody of the first line of the song was pretty hooky.

BOTTOM LINE
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This is a good song and I enjoyed it. I would probably want to clarify the story some (for slow listeners like myself) and try to make the chorus a little more distinct. But don't lose that engaging sound!

Mark

Lucian,

I've listened several times now. I feel really torn about this. The core of this song, like mine from last week (and like a million other songs) is that someone has done something wrong to someone else (at least from the perspective of the singer). This is the aftermath of that hurt. There's anger and regret about wasting time in a dead-end relationship. There's a card metaphor paired with an anthem type melody and feel. All of this works on a basic level. But I think it could flow better. I don't think you have to go into great detail about the relationship between these two people, etc. But I believe maybe the ideas can be organized a little more effectively.

I took the first lines of each of the verses (because these are like the introduction to each thought you are trying to communicate) and put them together. If you look at them, you will notice it's as if you are making some pretty big leaps from one idea to the next. You can see by looking at this graphic, why this seems to be wanting just a bit more flow.

Why do we play this crazy game?
I play for high stakes
You think I lay here a dead and beaten man,
Though I'm quite bitter I never was a quitter
How does it feel, friend, to be trod upon?
So don't choke on your pill,

Chorus

I never had a heart, got me a hand of Spades
Though I'm quite bitter, I never was a quitter

Just looking at this graphic, it would seem the most central idea is that the singer did not give-up the fight. The "fight" is being illustrated through the metaphorical card game they were playing. The singer has "shot the sun" or made a big play to end the game.

I don't think it works to have him "not" shooting the sun (i.e. present tense) in the first two verses, because you have it in the title. We know by reading the title that he shot the sun, so I would make the whole song past tense up to the third verse.

The third verse is where our singer is saying don't let the door hit you in the you know where...on your way out. If this were my tune, I don't think I would have him talking to the person and asking how it feels to be trod upon. I might try to make the third verse incorporate the card theme a bit more and would try to use the idea of having "beaten" or "out played" the opponent. Something in keeping with the theme. The line about swallowing the bitter pill works for the most part, but you might again want to use the card theme..perhaps the person could cash-in their chips or something?

I would use the card chorus again for the last chorus. I'm a big fan of the evolving chorus, but if I do one, I try to be very consistent in terms of the rhythm of the words, length of lines, etc. In this instance, I don't think you've said anything new with this alternate chorus, so I might just use the previous chorus again.

That's all I've got. Somebody shot the sun around here and I have to go to bed now:) Good luck with it! Let's hope the cards are kind to all of us in 2009.

Some detailed and thoughtful responses here! Thanks to all those who have already contributed. I sent a note to Pat to let her know we're ready for her comments whenever she is.

Thanks everyone,

Brian

Dear Lucian,

I was attracted to this song by the unique imagery of the title. Then I liked the interesting rhythmic patterns of the melody and the way you paid off on the title image. Good song!

My main suggestion for this is to consider deleting the first half of your chorus. I feel that the subject matter of the card game is off the point of the title. It wanders melodically, too. I tried fast-forwarding over that part and going straight to the second half (You laughed at me…) and got Pete to listen, too. He thought it was a good idea. You never know until you try it.

Coming from a country music perspective, I usually want to know exactly what everything means in a lyric. But, in this one, I’m happy to go along with the flow, knowing the general gist of the message. Not that most of it isn’t crystal clear! Strong images. It’s a more complicated version of “Cry Me A River.” And don’t you wish you wrote that song? It’s been making money for Arthur Hamilton for 50 years.

Very catchy melody and rhythm. I like the rhythmic variations in the different parts of the structure. If you decide to try the idea of eliminating the first half of the chorus, you may want to make some adjustments to the shortened version of the chorus to make it stand out from the verses more. Longer, higher notes?

I’m going to put some notes in the lyric

Verse 1
Why do we play this crazy game? - good opening line! We know right off there’s trouble in a relationship.
It all seems pre-determined to be played in vain. – pre-determined is a 50 cent word, but fits the tone of this song well.
The Moon's been in my sight but I held fire on the gun – I don’t really know what this means but I feel like the moon could be a reference to a female, and I’m not sure what the last half of the line means, but I’m willing to go along with it because it’s such a strong image.

I play for higher stakes
The Moon won't change my fate
So I'm shooting for the Sun – I’m not exactly sure what this means. Neither am I feeling totally lost. I’m just riding the melody and the rhythm and it feels good.

Verse 2
You think I lay here dead and a beaten man
But great will hides in the shifting, winding sands
It drifts along, buried growing ever strong – Powerful lyrics! Poetic.

Though I'm quite bitter
I never was a quitter
And my moment's yet to come – I like the alternation of poetic and very straightforward language.

Chorus
I never had a Heart – This is the part I’d omit if this were my song.
Got me a hand of Spades
But I'm without the Queen
Well hell I'll bleed her out with my friggin' ace
And I will be a King, just for a day or maybe more – I don’t know where the card-game images are coming from, This is a song about shooting the sun.

You laughed at me and said I'd – I like these four lines as a nice, short, but strong chorus.
Never be no-one
Now you're laughing in the dark
Cos I just shot the Sun!

Verse 3
How does feel, friend, to be trod upon?
And my foot treads lightly 'cos I remember where I came from
You'll never quite know the pain of the cast aside – I admire the way each line is a complete thought. Cool images.

So don't choke on your pill
The ride is in the thrill
And I will see you in another life – Not sure what this means, but I’m thrilling on the ride.

Chorus – (four lines)

Though I'm quite bitter
I never was quitter
And I waited for my time to come

I took a knock or two
But I stayed firm and true
And I went and aimed that gun

And I pulled back the trigger
As I heard one last snigger
And then I just shot the Sun! – I wish I could hear those four lines again here. How would it sound if you did a partial lift here and then put the chorus after it – like this:

And I pulled back the trigger
As I heard one last snigger

Yeah, You laughed at me and said I'd
Never be no-one
Now you're laughing in the dark
Cos I just shot the Sun!

I think the snigger line leads nicely into that. And then we could hear the chorus again.

Good work! I really enjoyed this song. It shows a high level of creativity.

Write On!

Pat Luboff
http://www.writesongs.com

P.S.: I like to do my comments before I read the others'. I see some people have taken the trouble to figure out what "shoot the moon" means and that it has something to do with a card game. I guess this is a case where ignorance is bliss, because that went right over my head and I took the image of "shooting the sun" at face value (hmmm...a card game idiom). I just liked the power of the thought of being able to make it dark by shooting the sun.

Waal...I've waited trying to see if ANYONE really understood this song. So far I see lots of Educated Guesses...but it's going to be Interesting to see what The AUTHOR really meant.

He sings to himself. I appreciate The Poesie, yet The Angst & Negativity here, plus the vague & JMO mis-used Card Imagery dealt-me-out, early-on.

In the Real World, when you Shoot at The Sun, your bullet lands FAR-Short, perhaps in the brain of some innocent bystander. I'm not REAL fond of using GUNS in lyrics either..since there's always Some Ignorant Kid waiting to pick up a "Helter-Skelter Vibe" in it & act upon it.

So, Sorry if I didn't share in The Appreciation of this effort, but yes, there's Talented Writing here. HOWEVER:

In many a culture the Sun represents (fittingly) "Life Itself". So, Scuze Me if I interpret this Baby to mean "The Singer Blew-Her-Away"..with his "Ace" (Gun)...and he'll see-her-in-Hell ("in another life").

Clue me in if I'm wrong--have been oft-before. But, for Elderly-Me, Vox, Music & Lyric were kind of a bum trip.

JMO.
Stan

The one thing that surprises me about most comments is the confusion and lack of understanding and appreciation of the songs meaning and subject matter.
It is always dangerous to second guess the meaning of song lyrics but in this case I felt the lyrics were quite self explanatory simple and straightforward and I did not think there would be much controversy over this aspect of the song.

Now the singer might be a jilted lover as some people think. That is possible but he might just as easy be a downtrodden person who folk did not think would amount to much. Does not matter either way or who he is saying it to for that matter. He is just saying defiantly "Screw you I did make something out of my life contrary to what you thought. Whilst some people shoot for the moon I shot the sun." In other words he surpassed his target a million fold. The song is a declaration that he will not be beaten and will win in the end despite him being seen as a failure.

Re the card references I do think that he is referring to the game called hearts. Shooting for the moon is a term in the game used to mean winning all the hands to score bonus points against all your opponents as opposed to losing the hands which is the main object of the game. The queen of spades is the danger card worth the most points so is the most important card. Understanding this game and its quirky rules is not important and is of little consequence. Nuff said if we just know that he has a winning hand, he knows how to play it and is playing to win.
There are many very clever little plays on words and metaphors throughout this song. If people do not "get it" then that is again unimportant more the fault of the listener than the fault of the writer.
As was stated there have been many big hit songs where we have not got a clew what the lyrics mean. Most pop and rock songs are more concerned with the music and arrangement. Audiences tend not to do deep analysis of the lyrics. That said this song's lyrics IMHO stands up to any analysis.

I would like to hear more comments about the music structure and performance. Lyrics are only half of the song...if even that. For certain genres lyrics contribute only a tiny percentage of what sells.

Hi again all,

Another thread came up recently, that had many of us in heated debate over vagueness in lyrics, whether accidental or as part of ones style. In that thread I argued that Dylan changed all the rules in the 60s, that for a while experimental lyrics were all the rage, and that the whole singer/songwriter movement started as a result of this ferment, and continues strongly to this day. I argued that performing songwriters and personal, subjective lyrics went hand-in-hand.

Another conclusion I made was that currently, it was a lot harder selling "vagueness", as a pure, non-performing songwriter, since singer-songwriters were covering this area quite nicely. Back in the 60s everyone except maybe Johnny Mathis applied their wares to experimenting, some like Jimmy Webb (Mcaurthur Park) with great success...

Finely, it occurred rather humorously to me that if only non-performing-vague-lyric-songwriters could hook up with wannabe-but-awful singer-songwriters who happened to have great voices, but whose personal, subjective lyrics were simply awful (no internal logic or consistency, etc.) ---that THERE was a marraige made in heaven. The non-performing songwriter would have a surrogate voice, and the bad writer who sings, a surrogate pen .

So I woke up this morning and realize when I wrote my critique of your lyric, that I was judging it solely from the context or paradigm of the non-performing songwriter, and how "publishable" was your lyric as a "stand-alone" entity.

Better would have been to have critiqued your music and gotten to the lyric AFTER I had allowed the music to possibly "hit me"...Then it's simply a case of "your music is strong, you might be able to get away with vagueness because your performance is quite affecting, and makes me feel a bunch of things..."

...so I'll quickly do that now...interesting delivery...hmmm....pitchy..."I never had a heart" goes down melodically...okay you're giving your chorus a curve, so started it low...

I COULD actually hear a "Nick Cave" singing this. I stick by the meaning as being rather "'My Way' as a Gunfighter Ballad"...Now Mr. Cave would improve the vocals immensely, though he himself is the pitchiest of pop singers...I found the singer "difficult" to get through, though I've suffered through many Burt Bacharach records cuz I loved the songs...And then there's that aforemention "persona" that Cave would bring to the table...

So you see, I'm back where I started: hearing your song as if it were the product of a non-performing songwriter, because I really wasn't all that moved by the performance. Maybe your intention IS to perform your own material, in which case I would rehearse the singer a lot more, or if "the band" is stuck with pitchy vocals, you will be relegated to the indie-est of indie labels. Maybe this is all you are after after all, I don't know...

If I was to give the lyric the "what if this is an unearthed Dylan lyric from the 60s" litmus test, I might be much more forgiving, maybe even call it "genius" and try harder to connect all the dots...maybe not...

Best wishes,
Mike

Hi Michael we were posting at the same time so neither saw each others post before composing. I think we have both raised valid points.

A song heard by a musician, or a sound engineer, or a lyricist, or a vocalist, is viewed differently. They ALL only look at the part they specialise in and tend to ignore the other aspects of the song.

To me a song is a combination of lyrics, melody, performance, arrangement and production. All play there part and any valuable critique worth its salt must cover all these aspects.

Just a couple of thoughts. I think most responders focused on the lyric because the music was a good fit. I think if the music had been boring or there was something that stood out to the ear (other than the vocal being a bit pitchy), most everyone would have picked-up on that. I believe the card metaphors threw people off. Pat suggested Lucian remove them from the lyric and I think that's a good suggestion. I had decided last night at 1:00 a.m. (when I do my best thinking...) that maybe Lucian needed to develop it more. I thought he was using it a symbol of how the person overcame the situation (i.e. this person out played the other person).

The feeling is conveyed here with both the music and lyric. It's a relationship that has made the singer suffer. The singer has overcome it. It could be a parent, a lover, etc.. The music has an anthem quality suitable for the idea the song is attempting to convey.

Hello, thank you to everyone who took the time to listen and make a comment. I shall now try my best to explain the song!
*******************************

I have decided to delete my explanation of the lyric because it was against my better judgement to do so in the first place.

I believe songs should be interpreted as the listener chooses to do so, regardless if that is or isn't the same as was intended by the writer. To anyone who find any meaning in the song. Your meaning was correct. To anyone who didn't find any meaning in the song. Your meaning was correct also.

Lucian edited 22 Jan 01.40 GMT

*******************************
The way the song ends is open to people's interpretation which is the best way to leave it I think.

Regarding the mix of the song, the guitar was a little low in mix, as it was done on my 8-track, which has a tendency do pull the vocals down and drown them in the guitar so I probably over compensated when mixing it. The arrival of the chorus was intended to be better announced with the overdriven guitar, and a general change of ambiance which I will try to better capture when I re-do it from scratch as I'm currently doing with all my songs.

I think this song also reflects a change in my attitude towards songwriting. Before, I would have regarded myself primarily a writer first and musician second, but I have come do understand that in a song the music is king, and if your melody, your vocals and music in general are bland and doesn't engage the listener, it really doesn't matter what your lyrics are because no-one will be listening, and with lyrics the important thing is how they work in the actual melody and not how they look on paper, and the most important thing is singing the right lyrics, at the right time in the right way. Just my opinion.

Thanks again, I will respond to all the comments individually later on.

Lucian

but Wendy, that's my conundrum: the pitchy vocals forced me into evaluating the song 'as if' this was a non-performing songwriter, since that's what it sounded like to me. Once forced, personally, onto this road, talking about the lyric's accessibility and possible vagueness seemed important, since (I figured) he would be looking to publish and /or find performers, not perform this himself.

I can understand how for others, this was not a roadblock. That speaks to a gift of the imagination that I perhaps don't have, or maybe just get lazy with.

I can pick up a cold lyric and hear music and singing in a bazillion voices and styles and write music for it on the spot; however once I've heard a performance, I filter everything through that particular performance, and have a really hard time hearing the song "as if" it is a cold set of lyrics and music. To wit: I'm very impressionable, LOL...and I suspect I'm not the only one, though find myself a little envious of yours and others' ability to step back and deconstruct "the performance" from "the song"...especially the spanking-brand-new song, that exists with exactly one known performance.....

unless it was something obviously vey good...I think if I heard the song "Yesterday" for the very first time--performed by "Tiny Tim", that I would still recognize a great song...

--Mike

Well, Bro Lucian, I USED to be an avid Hearts Player..ages-ago, of course..BUT I don't recall EVER hearing of "Shoot The Sun", at least in the American Game of it. So that led to one of the Many of my Mis-Interpretations. (&..I Live..I Learn.)

I also don't recall "gun" and "trigger" as being part of the Hearts Game argot. (But, yeah, it's been-awhile...heh!)

"Now you're laughing in the dark/
'Cause I just shot the sun"

Well, I thankya for lessening "The Darkness"...tho I still kinda pity The Singer if all it takes is a Good Card Game to replace a Lost Lover.

Good Luck With It,
Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

There is an old expression "aim for the sun and you will probably hit the moon" in other words if you set an impossible target and strive hard you will achieve more than you could normally. This is a great metaphor and philosophy.
I agree with Lucians take on the lyrics. It is also apparent that everyone has a different take on the hidden meanings and general storyline. A huge amount of songs are about being jilted or cheated in love therefore it is natural that the lover getting his own back theory is adopted by some. It is also possible to adopt a more general take in that this person is just making a statement that he is not downtrodden. He has taken part in LIFE the "silly game played in vain" and that there are no winners. He is simply pointing out that he has got the upper hand despite what others might think.
He is also down to earth, knows his roots and asks people not to judge others too harshly. All in all there are some pretty clever and powerful messages in these lyrics.
Lucian has said he is going to re-write and I wish him well. I think this song could be a commercial success but I hope the finished article does not cut out too many of the great images and metaphors he uses in the original. Musically it could and maybe should be tidied up. It does need a memorable chorus. It also needs a great performance especially the vocals. That is one area that Lucian could try to improve.
No disgrace in getting someone else to record them. I think others also mentioned that it detracts from an otherwise pretty good demo. All these things are not too difficult for him to fix.

Mike, thanks for the critique, I'm leaning towards ditching the card metaphores, while keeping the shoot the sun/moon lines as I think they work well.

I like the idea that Johnny Cash might have sung this song in the sixties. I'm kind of more in the category of songwriter who would ideally like to sing and release his own songs so I don't give much thought to who else might sing them, but if Nick Cave wanted to do it, I'd be happy to let him I guess.

Thanks Lucian

Kevin, thanks for the listen the critique.

Can't say I agree with the Rolling Stone comment, it's not a song that was in my mind when doing it. But you made some interesting observations I think.

Yes, I like to think I'm not a "cookie cut writer" and try and my little bit of individuality.

I'm glad I joined JPF too. I've had a couple of "They'll never understand me!" moments and sworn never to come back, but I like the fact there's all kind of different folks here doing all kinds of different stuff.

Thanks Lucian

PS. I like your winter stroll tune you put up, I might have to get me one of those band in a box things, seems pretty cool.

Jim, thanks the listen and critique. I do plan to "rock it up" a little when I re-do it.

Regarding dropping the 1st part of the chorus and going straight from the verse to the "You laughed at me..." line is that the chords for last part of the verse and the chords for that part of the chorus are the same, starting and ending a G, so it'd be very hard to create the same impact as currently has and would sound a bit too harsh - I tried it earlier. So there kind of has to be something between that the end of the verse and that line. I'll play around with it a bit, but I've got a feeling I'll probably end up keeping it the same as it is while improving the lyrics in the first part of the chorus to make them more accessible.

I'll work on it more when I'm done brutalizing Nowhere Man

And thanks also for your comments further down the thread, where you gave an excellent interpration of the song.

Cheers Lucian

Samuel, thanks for the critique. It chimes with a lot of what other people have said, that the card game metaphores are damaging the song and creating confusion and there's too much perhaps going on that the listener is unsure about.

I'm glad you liked the "lilt" - another word I've learnt from here.

Thanks Lucian

Kaley, thanks for the critique. It is often the case that a lady is the source of a man's woes but, in this case, hand on heart, I didn't intend the song to be about a love interest, but it was interesting to hear your interpration

Thanks Lucian

Frank N Furter, thanks for the critique, I'm glad you liked the melody - I kind of liked the "friggin' ace" line, but have something else in mind now anyway to make it a bit less vague.

Thanks Lucian

Lynman, wow, thanks, you gave a great critique, you understood the song really well and what I was trying to get across, and the parts of it that were very vague you put a really nice interpretion of.

The breaking of trust is something I can't ever forgive and I guess that comes across in the song.

I'll check out Tim McGraw. I actually like to perform my own songs, but as this is a collaboration with someone it's one I'd be happy to let be done by someone else as it would make a big difference to Chris, the co-writer of the song - and father of my nephew - to have achieved something like getting a song published as he hasn't always had the easiest time of it in life.

Thanks Lucian

Joyboy, thanks for the critique. I can see you didn't really buy into the song. That's OK, I kind of realized a while ago that not everyone is going to get my stuff.

But I have to take you to task on the matter of a load of spades and no hearts being a crappy hand, that's just plain wrong! I used to play quite a bit on a site called pogo and got pretty darn good at it! I was a purple, I never quite made a red - advanced - because of my moon shooting obbession - I didn't really play to win, I played to shoot moons. And suns of course.

Cheers Lucian

Lucian,

You saw in the game of hearts a whole world of metaphor that I don't think any of us saw--and with such brilliance and beauty...It paved the way for the "shoot the sun" line, which became the focus of your lyric. I know it might be hard to "let go" of the lines that traveled with you, that got you to the place where you could uncover the real gold.

Maybe it's like the act of "transference" in psychology, where the analyst paves the way for us to get to our own inner meanings; but then we become attached to the analyst, and cannot imagine a life without him or her.

It's always hard to make changes like this, but really, what are we talking about, two songs, one with card metaphors and one without...Maybe create two versions and let them fight it out, Darwin style, in the world of "survival of the...the one that feels right"...and knowing that might take awhile...

So yeah, consider at least creating an alternate version, and let the two duke it out...couldn't hurt?

I enjoyed your explanation of the "hearts" metaphors. I'm sure there's plenty of songs out there with hidden "keys" to them that are enjoyed by many with but mostly without the "keys"...the clues are all there but, hell if we solve the song, half the fun is gone! ...oft times it's the re-envision-ability that makes a song a classic, as lovers of middle period Dylan can attest...

Whatever you decide, all the best to you, and I'll be looking forward to your new music.

--Mike

Ricki, I always seem to get your songs, but you never seem to get mine. That's ok though. I don't mind being not got by someone I get. I didn't quite get your suggestions you made though, but I'm sure you don't mind being not got by someone you don't get.

The "dead" part was already a bit of an issue actually, and I'll probably change that to half dead.

Thanks Lucian.

Scott, thanks for the critique. I'm glad you liked the song.

I think you kind of got it in a way I kind of envisaged. Kind of intuitively understanding what it means while not 100% sure, and then thinking, ah, what the hell, he shot the sun - whatever that is - good for him!

The ending was a little awkward as the arrangement was originally for another lyric, so I kind of had to end it that way for this version, and I'll probably repeat the latter part of the chorus in the final version.

Thanks Lucian.

PS. I never got around to commenting on that "They aint you" song you put up, that's really stuck in my head and is a great piece of songwriting.

The fact that a lot of us don't know this game, its rules and lingo does not mean that there isn't a world of listeners out there who do. I went here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearts , and all your terminology is there. I would keep the card metaphor. Great songs always seem to work on more than one level. And At if you can have one level that is literal (game of hearts) and one figurative (whatever the listener determines that to be), then maybe you are "shooting the sun".

Kevin

Everword, thanks for the critique, a "petulant child"? I'll have you know I was a very well behaved child.

Well, that aside, you make your points well, but I don't think I've quite seen myself as mainstream, and maybe trying to be mainstream you'll just be swept into the sea and dissapear under the waves, who knows?

I'm glad you thought it was a ride interesting

Thanks Lucian

Colin, thanks for the critique, I'm glad you liked certain aspects of the song.

"The vocal is soulful and intense" I like that, not bad for someone who hasn't been singing that long. The pitch issues I'm aware of yes and I'm trying to sort out.

I'm just learning about all the aspects of mixing and mastering, panning and all that stuff using cubase, so hopefully the mix quality will improve in the future.

Thanks Lucian.

Mark, thanks for the really cool critique.

"Screw you, I made it!" Yes, I think it is safe to say this is what I was trying to say in the song.

As others have said, there are some lyrical issues I need to address. If I were doing my third or fourth album, living up the road in Primrose Hill next to Liam Gallagher, I could afford to be very vague, do ten minute long songs and all my fans would buy my records because my first couple of albums were really good. But until that time, it's better to have more clarity in the lyrics I guess.

And thanks for your comments on the music side of it. I'm gonna re-do it with my Telecaster Deluxe 72 reissue and new Bass so hopefully I'll be able to up it a bit more when I re-do it. Bit of slide guitar on that intro as well maybe.

Thanks again, Lucian

Wendy, thanks for the critique, I kind of get what you're saying, but perhaps your over analyzing it, I didn't quite get what point showing all the openings of each verse together shows, because it's the flow of each word and sentence put together that matters, isn't it?

To be honest, I thought your critique would be something like:

"Hey, Lucian, you sun of a gun! You had a real go at my B-movie life lyric for being full of film metaphores the listener wouldn't be able to understand, and now you go and write a song filled with card metaphors no-one understands!"

I'm just joking of course.

I think your idea is a good one if I wanted to make the song solely about a card game but, given the choice, I'd prefer to go the other way completely because I think the better song lies in that direction.

I just saw your 2nd critique as well - I do my good thinking about that time as well, maybe even later 3am or something - yes that is something I noticed that the most people are saying it's a fundamentally good melody that maybe needs a little tweaking, and rectifying some dodgy lyrics is easier than sorting out a dodgy melody I think.

Thanks Lucian

Pat and Pete,

Firstly, thanks a lot for picking my song. Out of all of my songs I have a particuarly strong motivation for this one to achieve its full potential and, hopefully, to be able to do something with it.

I'm glad you think the lyrics worked well overall and the song flowed well apart from in the first part of the chorus, which you suggest should be deleted. I have my doubts about doing that, but both of you and Big Jim said the same thing independently and that's a pretty powerful lobby group saying the same thing so I'm going to have to look at possible alternatives and see what works best there.

Probably I will remove the obvious game card references or make them "invisible" as they have clearly confused a lot of people and dilluted their interest in the song, and and I think the idea of shooting the sun is strong enough line to base the song around - even if the listener doesn't know exactly what shooting the sun is! I'm glad you agree it's a great image in the mind as that's what I have always felt about the line.

Thanks again, Lucian

Stan, what can I say, I clearly have a little thing about guns, they keep popping up in my songs. I've never even touched a gun, so not sure where it comes from. Probably because I live in a bit of a dodgy area, lots of crackheads and the like - I've had them doing their business outside my door before - and, to be honest, I'd quite like to own a gun if it were legal, for the sense of protection it offers. But I don't want anyone else to have guns, just me, cos I can be trusted to own one Anyway, the whole world will change now because Obama has come to save us, there will be no more guns, no more crime. I bet even the whether will be better tomorrow now Obama has come along to change everything.

Cheers Lucian

Lucian,

I probably did over analyize your song. My graphic probably didn't make much sense to anyone but me. It did get me to your central idea.

It's funny you brought up B-Movie. I played that song for some people, parents of some of my kid's friends, and they laughed all the way through it. They "got it." I didn't give them a back story or introduce the concept either. It's really a song by a mom written for a mom, so I guess I can understand why everyone would not get it or enjoy it.

Good luck with this. It is a good tune!

Hi Lucian,

"I always seem to get your songs, but you never seem to get mine. That's ok though. I don't mind being not got by someone I get. I didn't quite get your suggestions you made though, but I'm sure you don't mind being not got by someone you don't get."

I HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE DON'T GET ME, because I really try to make myself understood and since I make perfect sense to myself...And I also hate it when people don't agree with me, but that's another song.
When I write a song, I try to do it as a way to communicate my "art" with others, whoever they may be. I don't always succeed (River Dreams, Diamonds From Dust) but I try to break it down as simply as possible. That doesn't mean not using imagery and metaphor, but to do it in such a way that I'm reaching out, not in, and not burying the meaning under it all. I would like a listener to have to think, but don't ever want them to feel stupid. Could this be why you get me and I don't get you?:)

Ricki

This is very much my attitude to songwriting Mike, I don't really have any qualms about chopping things up and throwing them away - this one came out a little early in its development as I like to put a song up for submission for the Mentor Critique forum as it gives me a deadline to work to - I need deadlines - and I had to put the lyrics together and sing them in a couple of days. In the natural order of things the card lines from the chorus would have been naturally deselected from the song - even though they came first and gave birth to the song - and the stronger meaning of the song which came out when I wrote the verses would have prevailed.

Lucian

Kevin, thanks for putting up a defence of Hearts - it really is a cool game, there's probably a version on your computer somewhere and if you get a bit of time to have a go on it, you'll never forget the first time you shoot the moon! But I think the shot the sun line is enough to appeal to hearts players and non hearts players alike, so in that respect alone is does work on two levels I think, even without the more obvious card references.

Thanks Lucian

Wendy, I'm glad the B-Movie song found its audience. Sometimes you really do just have to put your hand to your ears, ignore everyone and trust your instincts

Lucian

Ricki, no need to get touchy

All I was trying to say is perhaps it is better to judge other people not from the way you write but from the way they write and judge a song on the sum total of its collective merits

I'll explain why I didn't really get your suggestions.

"You think I lay here a beaten man (you're obviously not dead)
But great will hides in the shifting sands (sand doesn't wind)
It drifts along, growing ever stronger" (if it's drifting it can't be buried)

To me, this seems like you've looked at the lyric as it is on paper and not how it sings - your alternative version sings terribly. For example, I would have to sing "shitfting" as "shiiiiiiiiiiifting", and does not the double -ing the way I sing it sound a hell of a lot better? Sand can do anything you want it to. I don't wish to divulge the exact meaning I intended, but perhaps a listener might think of the sands of time winding down, a snake winding across the dessert, the little wavy lines you get in sand dunes.

I don't want my listeners to feel stupid, I'm more and more aiming at creating songs that just sound good to listen to, and if they want to spend time looking at the lyrics, then that's fine, hopefully I've managed to find something for them to think a bit about, or perhaps a lot about - it's up to them. There's no thought police in the songs of Lucian.

Anyway, I hope you haven't given up on that Diamonds From Dust song, that'll be your best song if you can get it right! "You're here with me, we lie beneath the trees." Haven't heard it in ages but I still remember it.

Lucian