JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum How necessary is a chorus?

In another topic here, Big Jim mentioned that sometimes he does not have a chorus in his songs. I too sometimes write songs without a chorus. However, in general I sense that this is disfavored. How important is it to have a chorus?

Tom

I guess a chorus is only important if you want the song played on the radio. If you don't care about that, then I guess it's okay to have a song without a chorus. I can't really see why you wouldn't want to have a chorus though. That's generally what people like most about a song. If you remove that...then you are getting rid of or not writing the best part of the song. I can't really see how a song could be dynamic if there was no chorus.

Hi Tom,
I've written both ways it really depends on the music and subject.
AJ Baker

Being a fisherman of sorts the best way to explain needing a chorus is, that is where the "hook" normally resides. That would be the lyrical hook. The hook is what catches your audience by the ear. Its the part of a song that rattles around in everyone's head long after the song has ended. Probably because its repeated often.

There are also musical hooks, series of notes that catch your attention. So, who needs a chorus? A good song is a good song. Its all subject to interpretation, there are lots of good tunes that don't need any chorus, especially some ballads I've heard.

Anyway, an important part of any song is to include some kind of hook, be it lyrical or musical. There is no law that I'm aware of that requires a chorus. JMHO

What do the following monster hits all have in common?

Hey Jude
If You Could Read My Mind
You Ain't Nothin' but a Hound Dog
Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald
Born to Run
Wonderful World

Scott

Only a fool would write a song without a chorus.

So, enough on that. I'm going to listen to some old tunes...

Hey Jude
Maggie May
Thunder Road
Losing My Religion
China Girl
Norwegian Wood
We Can Work It Out
The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald
Stairway to Heaven
Bohemian Rhapsody
Baker Street
Positively 4th Street
White Rabbit

I guess if you can write a song like "Yesterday" then a chorus isn't important. But, most songs without a chorus are not as easily accepted by the public. "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" is another song without a chorus. The good ones are rare. You have to find a way to "hook them" without a chorus.

Great lists, Scott and Mark!

Heidi

I think it all comes down to style. There are plenty of songs without choruses, but they will usually have a repeating catch phrase line at the beginning or end of a phrase. This is a common treatment in some older blues and folk song forms.

Another variation might repeat the first verse at a later point in the song which is sort of a substitute for a chorus.

There are 3 (at least) great pop music song forms:

1. Verse/Chorus (with optional bridge)
2. AABA (Just the Way You Are, Yesterday, many jazz standards)
3. Blues (12 or 16 bar - Johnny B Goode, Rock Around the Clock, etc)

The AABA form will often have the "hook" as the first or last line in the "A" section.

Although the verse/chorus form is overwhelmingly the most utilized form, there have been a LOT of great songs written in both AABA and Blues forms. It just has to be a really compelling and catchy song.

You only need it when you need it!

The most memorable songs (and the most popular) have either a chorus with the hook OR a repeated line or phrase with the hook.

As already mentioned, "The First Time Ever I …" is a good example of the hook repeated in a line. It is repeated at the beginning of each verse and then at the end of the song. A repeated hook in the line is kind of like a mini-chorus.

People do like to sing along and the repetition allows them to participate easily. Making sure that the chorus or repeated line has the coolest part of the melody is important. For some reason, people like patterns and look forward to hearing that part again. If the hook is repeated too often it becomes tedious, no matter how cool it is.

In some songs, it a repeated instrumental hook that people enjoy. Like Sunshine of Your Love or Daytripper etc. People like to get out their air guitars or air basses, pianos etc. and play along. Sometimes they don't even like the rest of the song, just that cool repeated instrumental bit.

It isn't a rule to have a chorus. It's just a good idea and the fact that most songs have them is a reflection of what the majority of people want to hear.

Good question! No one right answer from the foregoing posts.

I am always looking for a memorable hook - lyrics and melody. There seem to be a lot of singer/songwriters writing in modern styles that don't use hooks, either by design or because they haven't come up with one.

If your song has a hook, I guess it doesn't matter if it is in a chorus or not.

Let's not forget:

Every Picture Tells a Story
Blue Eyes Crying in the Rain
Mainstreet (Bob Seger)
And any number of Bob Dylan tunes.

There's a lot of great songs out there without a chorus, but I think the general public really likes that chorus they can sing along with--as Jean mentioned.

In my neck of the woods, the most popular bands are those that play a combination of new country and classic rock. It seems like these bands pack the dance floors often because people know the words to the songs they're playing. Two of the most popular bands in these parts have "Mony Mony" and "Old Time Rock 'n' Roll" as staples in their set lists--and when they play 'em, the folks hit that dance floor (drives me crazy, BTW) By the same token, I've seen bands clear dance floors because they play an original tune or one that's obscure. I know that's weird--I always thought you danced to the beat of a song--but in these parts, folks dance to the familiar words. Then again, I don't live in an area noted for its open-mindedness and progressive thinking LOL.

The most unfortunate thing is that bands playing original music often play to empty rooms. I live in a very rural area, so maybe that's why. People here like the familiar and shun just about any form of change. Sad, but true.

Eric

Dynamic songs with NO CHORUS (just verses and bridges)

Bohemian Rapsody- Queen
Stairway to Heaven- Led Zeppelin
Heaven and Hell - Black Sabbath
Paranoid - Sabbath
Iron Man - Sabbath

I could go on and on and on but the above five songs are five of the top classic rock songs of all time. Lots of great songs do not have a 'defined' chorus and they totally rock. I am so tired of 'reviewers' telling you something can't work unless it follows the 'formula'. Now I know why artists couldn't care less about the critics.

Most traditional Xmas songs have no chorus either.

Coincidentally to this thread, I was reading a story at lunch about the anniversary of Billy Joel's "The Stranger". It had four hits on it:

Scenes from an Italian Restaraunt
Movin' Out
Just the Way You Are
Only the Good Die Young

One of these had a chorus. Another had a repeated refrain which might almost count as one. The other two (including the biggest hit of the four) had no chorus....

Scott

I would actually argue that the best songs of all time do not have choruses.

And that is one of the greatest pop albums of all time. You can cite example after example of great songs that lack a chorus but try to get a TAXI forward with a song that breaks this rule.

Well.........ALL the songs above had a "hook"......If you have no Chorus you better have a killer hook.....

BTW....If you use a Chorus it better have a killer hook....

In other words, something to make it memorable, & to make it stand apart from the rest.....

Personally, I ALWAYS write from the hook.....Which is generally for me in the Chorus....But I do have a great CCM song with no chorus....Practically all of my songs have a chorus....

Bottom line is you need to have a great "hook" in your song, no matter where you place it......

Okay, so what is a chorus?

The way we look at it, it's actually a "refrain", or a section of a song that repeats--usually the same lyrics--and contains the gist of the song. The word chorus is more specifically "a refrain in which others, such as audience members, join a soloist in a song" (Wikipedia), but hey, meanings change.

For me, sometimes a few words repeated at the end of each verse function in the same way as a chorus, like Dylan's "It's All Over Now, Baby Blue".

When people say that folks like to sing along to the chorus...well, that's the real deal. "Bye bye Miss American Pie..."

Sorry, just random thoughts.

In Ralph Murphy's look at the #1 Country songs of 2004, 19 of the 21 had a chorus. The other 2 were written by the artists (Alan Jackson and Toby Keith)

Yikes,
Now you people have got me confused. Hook, Chorus, Refrain,
I'm going insane! Aw well, I'll just write em the way I like em and you can figure out the rest. Write a Hit!

I figured it was called a "chorus" because other people sang along. I would agree if you want people to sing along, you better have a chorus.

Beyond that, no. You do need a hook, and a chorus (or refrain--whatever you want to call it) is a convenient place to put the hook; guarantees it'll be repeated enough to stick in folks' minds, and all that. You can do it other ways.

And it's not just rock 'n' roll. There are country hits that don't have a chorus; Leon Payne's "The Lost Highway," Hank Williams' "Cold, Cold Heart," and Tom T. Hall's "I Remember the Year Clayton Delaney Died" are all chorusless--but each one has the hook strategically placed to make it memorable.

I've done it, too--and I'm not famous, so it is a repeatable trick that works.

Joe

When it's all said and done... whether or not your song has (or doesn't have) a chorus... is up to you. If it needs one... put that sucker in! LOL!

Dave

the first song i ever had a publisher sign didn't have a chorus...i think great songs can take on an endless type of form, even commercially...the great song has to be universally appealing to a wide fanbase, have an engaging melody,beat,and musical hooks, which are equally if not more important than lyrical hooks, and that hook doesn't always have to be delivered in the chorus...you know it when you hear it, and when you hear it there is no "i wonder if it has a chorus going on?" it either strikes you as a great song or it doesn't move your needle...that said, probably 8 out of 10 of my songs are written in verse/chorus/bridge format, but i will and do go out of that box regularly...moker

I totally agree, if your purpose is to get cuts. Not all writers write for that purpose. I do both kinds of writing. For my commercial stuff, I will try to sink as many hooks in a song as I can. One killer hook is fine, but often that isn't even enough. You are often competing with multi-hook songs for cuts so EVERYTHING has to be there.

IMHO, you need all three kinds of hooks -- lyrical hooks, melodic hooks, and production hooks (the first two being the responsibility of the songwriter). You have to have more hooks stuck in that baby than pinhead has pins stuck in his head.

I agree that if you are going to write for Nashville, you HAVE to include a BIG chorus with a KILLER HOOK (or seven). Otherwise, the song MUST be flat out outstanding. The rules are different for writers and artists. Artists get some leeway; writers get none. Follow the Nashville formula or parish. I have had one very good country song rejected by TAXI multiple times because the lyric did not fit the formula. It was not conversational enough and didn't tell a story. I can cite song after song after song that has topped the Country charts and has not followed this formula but that apparently doesn't matter. I have learned that unless I give in and follow the formula, I will never get a forward (much less a cut) with that song.

The worst part is that I have only gotten very good reviews for that song. Even the lyrics are considered good, just not COUNTRY. I had an A&R person at a major label tell me that the song was good enough to be an album cut (they don't sign those), even with the current lyric, but needed a lyrical re-write in order to have hit potential.

i don't think it's important to a song
it might be important to an agent
or record producer

Hooks are great except for the fish. Don't you just hate it whrn the drummer starts playing lead.

Well, I guess it's a good question, Mark. I read somewhere (forget where) that a refrain was the last line of a verse that was common to all other verses. Like "It's all over now, Baby Blue".

A chorus was (I think) defined as several lines, usually with a different melody from the verses, that followed every verse - like in American Pie.

Obviously those aren't universal definitions - and in fact there is probably some overlap between them anyway - like in Only the Good Die Young. Is that a refrain or a chorus?

Ah - it's probably arguing how many Angels are on the head of a pin - beats grading papers for me though

Love your new avatar, Mark

Scott

There are many great songs that do not have a chorus or repeating sections. Does Bohemian Rhapsody have a chorus?
It would also pay to have a look at some classic 60s-70s rock.
A lot of the accepted rules of norm were broken then. Pity nowadays few rules ever get broken.

I would be interested to see peoples fav songs that do not have a chorus. It might enlighten some folks and broaden horizons.

"The Rose"...."Desperado"...that one only repeats one line.

Either "Tangled Up in Blue" or "Desolation Row" - too close to call...

Scott

A couple of my favorites that qualify...

Cry Me A River (Arthur Hamilton)...Julie London Recording.
I heard this song off and on for years, but didn't really
pay attention to it until last year.
Nice jazz guitar...great vocal...strange multi-syllable rhyme
in the bridge that grows on you ...and cool echo fade-out
at the end. Here she is on youtube...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ByUOFV5TusE

It Was A Very Good Year (Irvin Drake)...Sinatra Recording.
Amazing arrangement...flawless vintage Sinatra...perfect match
of song to singer. Youtube link...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wwoSNE7B7tM&feature=related

Ummmm didn't you do a co-write on the curse of carrie....???

A chorus is the icing on the cake, that little extra that attracts and sweetens the song (cake). Story songs don't need a chorus if the story is interesting enough to hold ones attention till the end.

"Stormy Monday" .... and about 20,000 other blues songs

Hey, I thought only fools fall in love? What gives? Did they change the rules while I was out?

You Belong to Me (Bob Dylan version)
Every Picture Tells a Story (Rod Stewart)
No Expectations (Stones)
How Many More Times (Zeppelin)
Bittersweet Symphony (The Verve)

Eric

One song that has a KILLER chorus that consists of one word - YEAH!

Lithium (Nirvana)

I'm so happy. Cause today I found my friends.
They're in my head. I'm so ugly. But that's ok. 'Cause so are you.
We've broke our mirrors. Sunday morning. Is everyday for all I care.
And I'm not scared. Light my candles. In a daze cause I've found god.

Yeah (x bunch of times)

I'm so lonely. And that's ok. I shaved my head.
And I'm not sad. And just maybe. I'm to blame for all I've heard.
And I'm not sure. I'm so excited. I can't wait to meet you there.
And I don't care. I'm so horny. But that's ok. My will is good.

Yeah (x bunch of times)

I like it. I'm not gonna crack.
I miss you. I'm not gonna crack.
I love you. I'm not gonna crack.
I kill you. I'm not gonna crack.

I like it. I'm not gonna crack.
I miss you. I'm not gonna crack.
I love you. I'm not gonna crack.
I kill you. I'm not gonna crack.

I'm so happy. Cause today I found my friends.
They're in my head. I'm so ugly. But that's ok. 'Cause so are you.
We've broke our mirrors. Sunday morning. Is everyday for all I care.
And I'm not scared. Light my candles. In a daze cause I've found god.

Yeah (x bunch times)

I like it. I'm not gonna crack.
I miss you. I'm not gonna crack.
I love you. I'm not gonna crack.
I kill you. I'm not gonna crack.

I like it. I'm not gonna crack.
I miss you. I'm not gonna crack.
I love you. I'm not gonna crack.
I kill you. I'm not gonna crack.

Many of my songs have some sort of chorus. I also use the last line refrain alot as well. I think story songs don't really need them.

I think people enjoy when you come back to recognizable things in a song. The great thing about a chorus is, verses can make the same chorus look different every time. Each verse giving the chorus a different outlook, or comes at it from a slightly different perspective within the same story line.

I have some songs that have verses and what would technically qualify as choruses, but they have the feel of bridges more than choruses. Anyone else have songs like that?

Oh, yes. Oftentimes I'm really not sure what to call the thing, and sometimes I'll give up and say it's a "bridgechorus." Once I called it a "reprise" just for the heck of it.

Joe

i think i have more bridges than choruses

and technically doesn't a chorus require more than one vocalist?