JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Obvious rhymes

The latest return I received from Taxi noted that some of the rhymes were too obvious - even though the lyrics were obvious in the way the words were used.

I have noticed that Taylor Swift used some very un-obvious rhymes and at times ignores rhyming altogether, but it works because of the song structure and way she sings and phrases the words.

What do you think about obvious rhymes - Is this something that needs to be avoided in the extreme?

Tom

I think it's a good idea to look for alternatives, but face it, you get to a point where every rhyme starts to look either obvious or contrived.

The trick is to make the line leading up to that rhyme interesting, and let that little word nestle at the end just as a capper.

Z makes an excellent point.

If the words leading up to or following the "obvious" rhyme are interestingly or cleverly phrased, then the rhyme itself doesn't have to be. But if the focal point is the ending rhyme, then it may be a good idea to rethink the rhyme scheme.

Quantity may also be the thing that makes obvious rhymes stick out. Everyone is bound to have at least a few obvious rhymes, but if all or most of the rhymes are obvious, then it becomes tedious and unremarkable.

Another factor is when the rhymed line is there just for the sake of consistent rhyme scheme. If the line seems out of place or is not adding something of interest, it throws the focus onto the obvious rhyme.

There are exceptions, of course. Aren't there always?

When a song is amusing, sometimes obvious rhyme is part of what makes the song funny. This would also apply to sarcasm.

Pop music often contains a lot of obvious rhymes, but for some reason the same standard of interesting rhymes is not considered important because the melody and rhythm are what is important. Nobody cares about the words in a lot of those songs, they just want to dance to it.

Rap music often contains a lot of obvious rhymes but there is also a lot of internal rhyming going on at the same time and there are so many words in between and so quickly uttered that the listener doesn't have time to notice that the rhyme is obvious.

Like rap music, many up tempo songs with a lot of words that go by quickly can get away with obvious rhyming.

Sometimes a song that has a lot of alliteration and assonance can get away with obvious rhymes.

The melody can make a big difference as well. A fantastic melody helps us overlook many a trite lyric. Arrangements and instrumental passages can also lesson the impact of an obviously rhymed lyric.

Almost forgot story songs. Songs that have a really interesting story can get away with the obvious as well. No one is listening to the rhyme, they want to know what happens in the story.

Well, Tom from all I've heard for quite a while from "industry types" --UN-obvious rhymes are very much to be preferred.
"Telegraphed" rhymes--rhymes where you can hear them coming, are frowned on and rhymes used a hundred thousand times.To a publisher, I think it comes off that the writer isn't "trying" very hard or else that they have a limited vocabulary
JMO
I'm sure you'll get plenty of responsese from people who know more about it
Wy
(Jean snuck her's in ahead of me <G>)

Here's a great on-line rhyming dictionary that comes up with a lot of off-rhymes: http://perfectrhyme.com/

Kevin

Tom,

Allthough Z and Jean makes brilliant points, I still would not overanalyze the return from Taxi. Im not saying that Taxi are wrong about that particular point, but there seems to be some context missing from making a point of that particular statement.

Logically, obvious rhymes can work commercially because they are a known reference for the listener. They can also work as intertextual references (eg. the rhyme makes you intentionally/unintentionally think of another song/rhyme/text), or they can work to establish the genre you are writing in.

So, I think the obvious can work for the good too, especially if you make a point with it. I understand the critisism from a creative / artistic point of view, though, but I would not place my money on that avoiding repetition (in rhymes) is the standard in commercially oriented genres of music.

Hey guys,

This is one of my favorite subjects. As in so many things, we can thank the Internet for a lot of this. The Internet exploded the amount of people writing, recording, and presenting music. It also shortened the attention span of the listener. So there has become very much a "Been there, done that" mentality among everyone, from artists, writers, industry people, all the way to the general listener. They tune out VERY quickly if you are not giving them something they haven't heard a million times. This manifests itself in the subject of rhymes more than just about anything,especially in country music.

When your format exists around conversational songs and stories, you have no choice but to make sure the song sings the way you would say it. The process we use most of the time are what I refer to as "Elbow moments' or those things you hear and poke your neighbor in the ribs with your elbow as if to say "Did you hear that?" That is most often done with "near rhymes" or "off rhymes.'

The perfect rhymes are going the way of the dinosaur as music gets more and more conversational. If you read your lyrics and they sound like Dr. Suess, "I do not like Green Eggs and Ham, I do not like them Sam I am," That is when you are getting too obvious and when most people start tuning you out. Publishers start to fill in "what comes next" and you can do it too.

Heart and Apart, Eyes and Realize, True and Blue, there are a bunch of them. If you are around music all the time, like myself, publishers, TAXI, artists, etc. you hear these over and over and it is like "been there, done that." There is a little trick you can do, listen to a LOT of songs. Amature songs, not hits. Just listen to a verse and chorus. See if you can figure out what they are going to rhyme something with at the end of a line before they get to it.

So near rhymes and different rhymes are the main way we avoid this. Finding different ways to say the same things we all have heard a million times.

And yes, there are those rhymes that make it into popular songs. It is quite a different story when you are coming off of three million selling records and are a strong selling act. My rule of thumb is "When you can see your reflection in your gold and platinum records, you can say anything you want, anyway you want.
Till then, you better find a different way to say it.

This is one of the most obvious things I have to tell people in any time I am doing reviews or critiques. It is simply because there are so many songs, so many artists, so many options to take our attention. 24 hour television, multiple radio stations, Internet, it is all blaring at us all the time. So if you don't find a different way to say something, they are already gone. And you have no time to waste. In Nashville, we listen to songs two lines at a time. If you don't have something ineteresting in the first two lines, we are not going on to the next two, and so forth.

So try for different rhymes. Please. It will pay off for you in the long run.

MAB

I remember when "near rhymes" were getting popular. There were three of us working on a song, Erik Thorson, "Tennessee" Bob Landrigan, and I. T Bob suggested we could rhyme "blue" with "window" as a near rhyme. With his New York accent (the reason he got the nickname "Tennessee" Bob) it still wasn't quite even a near rhyme. We argued for a while, then Erik and I wrote a limerick which is framed on my wall today:

There once was a songwriter who
Tried to rhyme "window" with "blue"
The publisher said
You're out of your head
And threw him out of the window
-Erik Thorson and Mike Dunbar

Yes, the old joke was "moon, June, croon" nowdays there is hardly a common word that hasn't become a rhyme cliche.

Run fun; take break; heart fart, you hear them all the time.



It's a Cliche
(c)2009 words and music by Mike Dunbar

VERSE
The Nasvhille songwriters say don't rhyme "start" with "heart"
But right from the start you put a new beat in my heart
It feels so new but it's the oldest thing of all
It's such a trip the way you made me fall

CHORUS
It's a Cliche
"I love you" is now passe
And those love rhymes have gone away
But still I feel like I'm inventing the wheel
Each time you blow me a kiss it may be old but it's real
So I can't stop myself from these words I say
Even though
It's a Cliche

VERSE
You might not hear my lyrics singing on the radio
They won't open the doors down there on Music...well, you know
But just like Grandpa or the Romans and those old cavemen
We'll find those simple things work over and over amen

CHORUS
It's a Cliche
"I love you" might be passe
And those love rhymes have gone away
But still I feel like I'm inventing the wheel
Each time you blow me a kiss it may be old but it's real
So now I can't stop myself from these words I say
Even though
It's a Cliche

BRIDGE
I'm not afraid to be foolish
You're too much to lose to a trend
So I'll keep saying "I love you"
Over and over and over

CHORUS
It's a Cliche
"I love you" might be passe
And those love rhymes have gone away
But still I feel like I'm inventing the wheel
Each time you blow me a kiss it may be old but it's real
So now I can't stop myself from these words I say
Even though
It's a Cliche
"I love you" might be passe
And those love rhymes have gone away
But still I feel like I'm inventing the wheel
Each time you blow me a kiss it may be old but it's real
So now I can't stop myself from these words I say
Even though
It's a Cliche

I grew up listening to musical theatre, and there's a precision in the writing -- perfect rhymes, perfect meter are expected; and the vocabulary available for that genre is much greater. (And of couse, I got spoiled listening to Sondheim).

But since writing in popular genres, I'm getting much more comfortable with near-rhymes. They are often just the thing. There are times when I will deliberately reach for one so the rhyming isn't too "perfect," if that's what suits the song.

Im not comfortable with the symmetry of perfect rhymes at all, but I do appreciate others doing the craft. Pop songs from the golden era of jazz were also written like Broadway tunes, and in Jimmy Webb's bio "songwriter" (well, sorry mr. free speech, but this was not a reference to that! ) they are covered quite a bit too.

Somehow Im rather pleased to hear that the a&r people doesn't approove of clichés too, as there really are no theoretical reason for them to defend the art (even if it is a death sentence on most of my lyrics). Look how many movies from Hollywood who keeps referring to themselves in sequel after sequel. Clichés are commercial in a tacky way, but they fullfill's the 'Walmart not Hallmark' standard of songwriting.

So, if the standards you reference, Marc, are universal in the music business, that is once thing to credit the publishers and a&r people for..

Nothing worse than predictable rhymes. The cliche ones used all the time ARE THE WORST and rhymes of convenience where a rhyming word which does not really fit the story is put in just to match the last word should be avoided. I would prefer a near rhyme to these or a complete change or avoidance of certain rhymes or lines to avoid these pitfalls. It just requires a bit of thought plus a rhyming dictionary and thesaurus.
It is also important to remember that certain accents or dialects allow words to rhyme when perhaps according to the Oxford dictionary and using proper pronunciation they should not.

Hi,

Really interesting discussion, I am probably guilty of the pop rhymes, but i do agree with telegraphed rhymes, you can always see them coming, I always wonder is that because it is the rhyme or you can predict where the line is going from the first words once you have heard the start. Ok so yeah, that it chicken and egg stuff.

Z: I listen to a lot of musical theatre and i was also spoiled on Sondheim (now I'm getting spoiled on Jason Robert Brown and have always been spoiled with Tim Rice) but one of my favorite off rhymes, well hell I Just call it a rhyme, comes from Joseph and the amazing etc where the line is:

'All these things you saw in your pajamas
Are a long range forecast for your farmers'

Or another favorite:

'The creme de la creme of the chess world in a
Show with everything but Yul Brynner'

(both the above from the pen of the aforementioned T Rice, both from musicals, the second being a big hit as well)

That is just class. Musical theatre is different as its all about episodes in an over all story, but then a song is just that, a story as well.

I must start looking now at my own writing regarding rhyming as this thread has made me think a little. Which is what it is all about.

Thanks for the thoughts

Alan

Here's one more thought about writing, and choosing rhymes.

I have had the experience of writing a line I really loved, and then trying to rhyme it. I go through every rhyme I can think of, I go through the rhyming dictionary, I struggle to find "near" rhymes, and not one of them seems to fit. I can't seem to formulate a sentence that flows, and that ends in a single one of the available rhyming choices.

At that point, I can force a line to work, or throw out the line I love and start over. If I'm smart, I break what I have and start all over again, moving stuff around.

Sometimes I can save it by taking the strong first line, and making it the end of the verse, and putting a weaker rhyme (or a decent lead-in) at the beginning. I try to save it if I can, but if the right rhyme isn't there, it isn't there.

That's a great rhyme, as in "my heart was thinkin' Hallmark/but the words came out all Wallmart"

If we find we are re-arranging furniture to accommodate a rhyme, any rhyme, a listener might very well stumble over the furniture. Good writers can slip an obvious rhyme in, in such an unobvious way, that you don't notice.

If we don't have a grasp over "what we are trying to say" in a song, it is easy to fall into the trap of searching for rhymes first, and then shifting the meaning of our song around to accompany the rhyme. In most cases, I would say this is not a healthy practice. Best to know exactly what we want to say, then often times the perfect language will be there to help us say it. Of course, if the perfect language for what we want to say is full of cliches, then maybe our song idea is a cliche, and doesn't need to be written.

Mike

Michael,

Exactly, "have a grasp over 'what we are trying to say' in a song." I've seen many songwriters make up stories to fit the rhyme or the hook instead of the other way around.

rhymes don't necessarily matter to the average listener...it's the line that counts. rhymes are there to make your lines POP. Taylor Swift songs have weak rhymes but no one's gonna remember her songs in five or ten years. for lotsa reasons. Nashville songs are loaded with bad rhymes and used cd bins are loaded with Nashville cds. look at your classic songs...Over the Rainbow, Yesterday, Like a Rolling Stone, I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry. those songs have time on their side. how are their rhymes?

make your lines interesting and your rhymes as clean as can be as a secondary issue.

Hi Tom

Great advice and suggestions given here. just perfect.

I'm a huge user of sound-alikes and internal rhyming with perfect & sound a-likes.
I let melody and feel of the song HEAVLY dictate the words I choose.

Rather than give you a page of info I can point it out to you by example.
The song we are working on.....

Remember when I used the word " movie" ? to go with magazine.
It worked and no one could predict it.

When I use to have cable I would watch the current video channels alot. This is how I would know all the current hit songs.
I would often play this game while watching and got my wife to play some as well.
We would sit and as fast as we could try to guess the rhyme the song was gonna have next. So both of us would shout out a word before the singer sang it.

There's nothing wrong with perfect rhymes if they support the story and the song. Even better is to match a perfect rhyme with a near rhyme as in this famous song:

green grass
wine glass
fruits of summer
this spell i'm under

Kevin

I try my best not to think about all this...and yet think about it.

You can get nailed for rhyming too well, or for not rhyming well enough. The important thing is to say the right words.

But when I write a song, I'm going to try anything at all before I DON'T try it. I'm a Yes Man when I write...and a No Man when I rewrite.

So all I'm suggesting is to write with absolute freedom, or risk being stalemated by the rules. Once you write your perfect song, "The Dove of Love Flies Above"...then do the necessary surgery to remove the hackneyed cliches and blue, blue windows.

I always love the Nash bashers that continually criticize current songs but have to go back thirty five years to name songs that would fit their point and songs that probably would not be cut if they came through today.
One of the reasons perfect rhymes don;t work as well now is BECAUSE the buying public is turning them off, not to mention the filters before they get to the public. To ignore that cuts your nose off to spite your face.

MAB

Marc, I go back that far because those songs have stood up. which songs are still relevant today? the stuff on Synchronicity or an Alabama record? the public isn't turning them off...they're not getting written. the writers just aren't as good. of course, Music Row songs have never had the same power as classic pop or rock. which Barbara Mandrell songs stand up next to what's on Born to Run? none.

what I love are guys who can't write pontificating on website after website as if their word is gospel.

Marc,

You make a valid point, but I think Robert does too.

If I may take an intermediary position: I think we, as songwriters, should define our goals and know who we are writing for. Are we writing to get a cut in Nashville? Or, are we trying to write 'one for the ages'? For ourselves? For our niece?

Certainly the lyrics that Tom has written for Justice have a completely different approach to rhymes than his work for himself does, and rightly so.

How we decide to work with rhymes ultimately depends on many things, but mostly what works for us, each of us, individually, and that changes from song to song, depending on the lyric's context. I think there's room in the world for trendy lyrics and timeless lyrics. There are good and bad at both extremes.

Mike

Mike and Couch Grouch,

You cannot compare songs in different eras. You have to deal with what you are working with now. In this day and age Hey good looking, what you got cooking, would not be used in natural speech. That is what has changed. And comparing songs like that to today's music, no matter what you think of it, does no good. And to say that none of these songs are being written today is pure hogwash, but I am not going to get into that with you.

The facts of the matter are as follows. Most writers who are not artists usually wind up trying to make inroads in Nashville because that is the last place that artists do cut outside songs. Aside from VERY few examples, there are no rock or pop cuts. Those sides of the business have been writer/artist since 1964 when the Beatles changed the definition of the format.

It is like saying "well if we had Micky Mantle of Babe Ruth playing now.." it is nonsense because they are DEAD. Yes, a lot of the songs you mention have time on their side, because they came in in a different era. That doesn't nessasarily mean they would work if they were new songs in this day and age.

I sit around and listen to people bringing songs in all the time that sound reminicent of those songs. They don't work today. And when you preface Bruce Springsteen and artists that started thirty years ago, they are the first people to tell you their music would not work with that now. formats have changed, human perspectives have changed. How they view music has changed. Now that can be bad and good.

Personally I love older songs. Play them all the time. But knowing that they are hits many times because we grew up with them have fondness for them doesn't nessasaily mean they are great songs. Many are. But not all. Margaritaville is not exactly explaining the mysteries of the Universe, but it is played somewhere all day every day.

At the times of those songs the current writers you talk about, Lennon and McCartney, Hank Williams, etc. might reference songs from their youth that no one has heard of today and THEY all thought they would last forever. Generations change and you either change or adapt or get left behind. And all the complaining in the world doesn't do much good for anybody.

The subject of this thread is perfect verses non perfect rhymes,Somebody gets a review from TAXI or other sources that say the same things over and over, predictable rhymes. And bringing up a song from forty years ago doesn't nessasarily translate.

I am not potificating or pretending to be the voice of anything other than sitting here watching writers hit the same glass wall time after time after time. I am simply trying to say "Hey, there is a glass wall here." If you want to hit it over and over, that is up to you.

MAB

Marc, I'm not gonna read all that but anything can be compared. and Barbara Mandrell and Bruce aren't from different eras. Bruce just outlasted her, which is my point. neither is Every Breath You Take, King of Pain and whatever corn Alabama was shuckin' back in '83.

it's the lines that matter most, not the rhymes. some adapt...some rise above.

edit

as an example of what I'm saying: 90% of Music Row tunes are generic love songs. if you submit a generic love song to a publisher with a heart/apart rhyme, you're probably a goner. go with the "you're forever in my heart/I can't wait to hold you in my arms" line rather than "you're forever in my heart/I'm so lost when we're apart".

but the real way to do it...don't be generic. if your themes and lines are creative, true and not contrived, the rhymes won't matter.

Does Sheila Davis and (do) other writers on lyrics use just the 'Nashville model' to define what a good lyric is, or a more rounded menu?

Good and bad writing comes in all shapes and sizes, and is not necessarily contingent on how perfect or imperfect ones rhymes are.

If I used "trends" to define my writing, I would be a shallow writer who shifts with the wind. It is better to be who you are, and have character.

In other words, if you just can't bring yourself to rhyme heart/arms, don't do it, just because you can. Do it because it happens to say exactly what you want to say, right there. Then be thankful to the 'songwriting gods' that they've loosened their belts, for the time being!

Mike

Hey...great thoughts here all around....I agree with a lot that has been said here..some very valid points expressed and Marc you have the pulse on the market now so I listen close to what you offer...I have a very interesting muse..who at first thought I was crazy (most of all cause I write country)and brought up the perfect rhyme issue and much more...although she is not a songwriter/musician she has a fair understanding of songwriting which I am learning to pay more attention to...and not because she is my fiance or anything...lol...but she was married to a fairly well known musician that was pretty popular in the 60's...for some of you older guys he founded a group in San Francisco called "Moby Grape" and then went on to play with the Jefferson Airplane (guitar/drums)later on...his name was Skip Spence...at least I get an understanding woman who both understands and accepts the wonderful insanity of songwriting.....Larry

I don't get the Barbara Madrell comparrison. She was a marginal artist from one era. There is no comparrison to Bruce Springsteen. There was also Buck Owens, Johnny Cash, Merle Haggard, George Jones, a lot of people that have lasted pretty well. They are from different genres and different eras than now. You seem to have some problem undrestanding that I am talking about different eras of time. And about different songs and artists.But that is really not the point. The point is perfect rhymes, changes in the language and current styles, not thirty years ago.

Why don't you bring in a song called "Love me Do, or "I wanna hold your hand" now? That is what I am talking about. The language changes as well as the acceptance of the language by the record buying public.

Again, all this started about perfect rhymes. You can reject or not. You and I don't agree and never will, so I am really not that much talking to you. I am addressing the topic of this original thread which is "Why is Taxi telling him he has predictable or obvious rhymes?" That is the point.

My information comes not so much from me, but from personal people I know who are current hit writers, artists, producers, record company people, publishers, ASCAP, BMI,SESAC,SOCAN,NSAI. Their comments are echoed from interviews, articles, and contacts with people from LA, New York, Australia, England and other points in between, from different genres of music and different points of view. It is an ongoing discussion that goes on every day in the music business.

That is what I am passing on.

MAB

Sorry about a lengthy post, but Im on vacation and feel a little bored so here goes..

I mostly argue from an outsider position drawing on logic, as I do not have the experience in music business. This puts me in an observer role about what goes in practice, but I do know some about language theories in (very) broad strokes, that might fit in this discussion.

In the 20-40ies, the big aera of Broadway hits and perfect rhymes the predominant idea in language theory was that language is picture like. It can be transparent, thus the challenge was to make language as perfect as possible. It was all about choosing the right words in the right sequence, to craft a meaning that was transparent for everyone. This seems to be reflected in the lyrics of that time with perfect rhymes, no matter if the language was passive or active. The written paradigm was dominant.

In the 50'ies, new theories came (Wittgenstein as the most prominant), theorizing that language is not like a picture. Language was seen as way more blurred and the meaning of words more fluid, and not just the speaker but also the listener was taken into account. The dominant theory was slowly becoming (we are still in the process of accepting this), that the words we use can mean different things for different people, and that there are no way to be certain that the intended meaning also is the percieved meaning. According to theory, what we are doing with language are more like 'games', where author and listener play with meanings of words and negotiate their meanings in between them.

This is what we see in contemporary songs. Words are used and reused in new meanings, and the language is informal and active like when we speak (the conversational tone). The function of the rhyme seem to be the function of providing repetition and emphasis, and not just structure. Thus rhymes used to provide structure would seem old-school - the case of forced rhymes - and perhaps the case in your song, Tom?

A lot of these 'games' in music is also about recognizing genres. Genre is then the ballpark of the language game we are playing, and in practice certain opinion leaders are deciding the 'rules' - not as something objective, but as a framework of including and excluding people.

This is why what we call 'knowledge' (the rules of the game) and power is inseparable.

Theories that are widely accepted in science seem to have a way of breaking through in public opinion about 40-50 years later, so thats about now for the language game theories. Prior societies have had trouble accepting this, as the truth of the word has a dominant function in our cultures and societies. Religious fundamentalists will also never accept these theories of language.

Ideally music seem to work like a meriocracy in practice, where the succesful writers states the rules. Not just by teaching others, but also because upcoming writers are analyzing their songs for what works. So the way to be included in such a 'society' seems to be to write originally, but still honor the succesful writers of our time (honour 'tradition').

Naturally, the experiences of these writers are valid, you just don't write with obvious rhymes etc. as the rookie red light turns on right away. You gotta earn succes, by writing in tradition and adding something to it (orginality). But then again, you don't write for other songwriters..

My posts in this thread, is not so much about the earned power to decide the rules (which I respect), but about the emphasis on making decisions in favour of art. Even though Im pleased, Im surprised the business links (publishers, a&r) in music business are putting so much emphasis on originality as there are no such demands from people who uses language. Perhaps this is a percieved idea of the public expectation of the creative people (writers, musicians, artists etc.), that we have to be original? But why would there be such a criteria in the "Wallmart not Hallmark" scheme of things?

In movies (at least the big commercial Hollywood ones), writers seems to have left this premise. In science there's the same claim and needleeye you have to enter to be included, but here the principle is handled by transforming old knowledge into business (that's 'new'). And in every way the concept of 'new' and 'original' is challenged in the computer age. Remember the Mathisse painting (C'et ne pas un pipe)? When is something an original if it is done on a computer and copied (the download issues)?

Basically the re-use of metaphors, alliterations and assonances etc in a new song/context would qualify as 'new' or 'original' and would make it easier for listeners to establish a sense of 'genre'. Depending on other sections of the song, it could also be percieved as a commercially viable choice, as this would provide a sense of repetition, consequently structure. This could all be part of honouring tradition as well as using language in the new sense of the same words/metaphors etc having multiple meanings depending on use.

So setting up new songwriters with an ideal to write orginial stuff, pretending there really is an art to be honoured, while the cut's are clichéd like Hollywood films, seems to be a double bind argumentation. You have to write original, despite observing the charts says you don't?

Even though, this just for the purpose of discussion, though. I actually like the pursuit for originality within the framework of tradition, as I think of this as a particularly interesting challenge :-)

So, back to Tom's return from Taxi. Artistically, it makes sense to have a song rejected with this argument. I might not just be about the particular rhymes, though, but about the fact that they seemingly were not used in a new way, or provided any new interpretations of the subject matter. Commercially, I fail to see the rejection is valid in this theoretical discussion, with the reservation we still remains to see the lyric.

It could also be that the next screener, listen to things differently :-)

Yeah but when you attempt to put a Foucaultian spin on a Gadamerian hermeneutical model, you run into the possibility of negating the objects ontology though sublimation by power/knowledge.

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent...

Rock On!

Songcabinet has some interesting ideas (yea, I'm not on vacation, but I still read it). I would venture to agree on his theory on Tom's note from Taxi: It probably wasn't really the "obvious rhyme" but more the originality/power of the particular lines.

Great lines
can have perfect rhymes
Near rhymes
serve their purpose, too

Story told
images unfold
Great lines
You and I persue

Kevin

Jean, you make very good points. One is particular is the issue of the genre and pop songs in particular. Tween songs seem partiularly in this mode. The music matters the most and in fact tweens (who do not have the experience of having heard the same same thymes over and over) seem to like more simple lyrics and rhymes.

Tom

Hah, great response Greg, quoting the early Wittgenstein! I think this is true, as postmodern language theory (which was my reference) tend to reduce everything ontological (matters of the physical realms) to epistemology (matters of perceptual realms). My reading of Foucault would be more realist, though, and the dichotomy of ontology vs. epistemology is a creation in realist theory, postmodern theory attempts to challenge the validity of.

For non tech readers this means, that everything in language in the radical sense of these theories, is reduced to language only, thus not acknowledging that eg a hammer, actually has a physical form and prescence. This is a sort of ridicule of the theory, though, and the proper response would be that you cannot subdivide a hammer into physical and perceptual properties - that would be a false dichotomy in the first place, therefore the critique is false, and it is the ridicule that is the ridiculous

Im sure nobody in here cares about this discussion, though. Allthough I believ we could have some fun discussions about modern vs. postmodern art, which could be interesting and practical in authoring lyrics, songs and music.

In practice the crit means in this case, that my point could be negating a possible fact that Tom's song actually IS rubbish, I guess :-)

And the Wittgenstein quote, that we sure knows good writing when we see it :-)

To remain potent in this discussion, I must therefore inhabit the position, that this is possible too (not negating the negation, by setting up another dichotomy) :-)

Sorry, Im babbling on, but Im just saying that Tom's rejection might be an impossible situation, as he has analyzed the Taylor Swift songs and try to match his writing to that analysis - then a Taxi screener tells him, that he must converge to the rules of their game to get a forward. If he does, he might get the forward from Taxi, but not the cut with Taylor!

We still know little about the actual song, though, so everything remains speculation (theoretical).

For some reason, this reminds me of hiring people in a work environment. You put an ad in the paper requesting resumes for one position. You get 100 resumes from people who want the job. You have to screen the resumes down to a manageable number like 5 before scheduling interviews, etc. so you go through all the resumes looking for reasons to throw out 95 of them. Wrong experience, wrong education, work history doesn't fit desired profile, whatever.

In this case of course, it is tired rhymes that get you kicked out. So I think an in-depth analysis is probably unnecessary - it's just a way to cut to the chase.

Yeah Colin, seems like a good way of putting it to me.. it's business as usual.

Nobody really cares about explanations (except when they are on holiday :-)

Wanted to chime in here after reading most of this thread. I agree that it is probably best to strive for different rhyme mates to set yourself apart from the pack.

In a recent writing experiment, I looked at the current top 10 Country lyrics and found that 52% of the rhyme mates were perfect rhymes. That actually surprised me, as I figured there would be much fewer in today's Country.

This percentage may differ with other genres.

Just having a bit of post-modern fun above...

But seriously... I think of an example that I know has at least one more example I'm thinking of at the moment but what of these lines from hit songs?

Jason Aldean - "She's Country"

Brother she's all country(shoot)
from her cowboy boots to her down home roots

Alan Jackson - "Gone Country"

She's gone country, look at them boots
She's gone country, back to her roots

There is another example of this exact rhyme in another song that I'm sure has "country" in the title too, but it's escaping me for now...

How do these cliche, obvious rhymes keep getting cut? (I actually think I know my own answer to the question but wanna hear what you all think)

These aren't the ones I was thinking of... but...

The first wasn't a big hit, I don't think, but here's

Brooks & Dunn - "Johnny Cash Junkie (Buck Owens Freak)"

I still drive a pickup, I still wear boots
I grew up country, I’m proud of my roots

And the opening lines to "Friends in Low Places"

Blame it all on my roots
I showed up in boots

I think there's a big one in how the lines feel to the artist.. sure the rhymes need to be great, and as far as possible clean from clichés, but in the end a song can get chosen for a cut by feel, I think.

Probably not the outsiders songs, though, but the insiders play them for each other, and they are probably played in the artists' audition sessions as well, with their street team as listeners. And a song that feels good for the artist to sing, will come out stronger..

In my experience, many clichés actually sings great, and I think thats a big part of why we keep on finding them in the releases!

Idea guy,

How do large business owners buy out small businesses?

How does the Government take over and close small and large businesses?

How do actors do crappy movies but still command extrodinary money?

How do mediocre football, baseball and basketball players make more money a year than half the people in this country? Only to wash out in the majors after a year and the only time you hear about them is ten years later when the "where are they now" segment features the bridge they live under?

Because the marketplace they are in lets them.

Look at each person and song you named. What songs did they have before? How much money have they brought their respective companies?

I once asked Jim McBridge, "How did you get the rhymes "Way down yonder on the Chattahoochie, it get's hotter than a hoochie coochie?" he said "My Wife said the same thing." We thought it would be changed by the record company. It wasn't.

Always look around your house at the connections you have. How many hit lawyers, producers, artists, managers, record labels, fans, do you have either in your living room, on your phone call list, your computer addresses or in your front yard trying to get to you and your songs? Then check your royalty statement on the performance of the last big hit song you had.

When the answer to the first question is "Too many to count." And the second is "I am driving the results of that" you can say do anything you want, in any way you want to. Up until then, you should be trying to find a way to say it BETTER than those.

MAB

I think most of you have probably heard/read that an outside writer's song has to actually be better than the staff written or artist written material. You have to give the music execs a reason to choose yours over the inside material, of which I'm sure there is a multitude.

it's OK to use obvious rhymes to say what you need to say, though surprising and near rhymes keep the listeners guessing

obvious phrases are more of a problem

Cute lyric Mike Dunbar. Didn't know if you left out the word "again" from the last line of your bridge (could have been last word) by accident or on purpose since "again" would have rhymed w/"trend". Maybe you were trying to not be too "cliche"

Tom I think so much depends on so much.

1. What genre
2. How great the melody is
3. What the listener is partial to
4. Who/what you are writing for
5. ETC.

I appreciate all rhymes whether identical, soft or even cliche' when used in the right genre, right feel, right time w/the right melody, etc. They all have their place.

There's all kinds of rhymes,
That make the world go round,
And when they're used wisely,
They make the sweetest sound!

I'm still working on "window" and "blue".

Tom

They get cut because them rednecks are used to plowing up roots while wearing they's boots.

That was fun to read. I didn't realize all those songs had roots/boots rhyme. Now I'll notice them from now until eternity.

I'll bet there are a ton of boots/roots rhymes in country.

What is wrong with rhymes? The ear is expecting to hear a rhyme, if it doesn't get one, it is disappointed. Rhyme on fellow songwriters, hold your pen high.LOL

Talking about rhyme analysis and obvious rhymes, how do you think this line finishes....the ??? mark indicates where there are missing words....

Through the tears, through the rain
Through the sorrow, through ?????????? (one or more words)

How do you think the line ends?

Probability of PAIN, 99.97%

Thanks Lynn. The inspiration was something the British poet Lee Harwood once told me when talking about avoiding cliches. He said, " 'I love you' is a cliche." We're just talking about current trends. They'll probably go back to hard rhymes at some point, and maybe just turn to no rhymes at all, like the Haiku jazz standard, Moonlight in Vermont.

Avoiding the word "again" in the bridge produced just the effect in you that I wanted. Anyone reading or hearing it would know what I meant without my saying it. Plus it created a surprise. Just as in music, when we set up the ear to think we're moving to one chord only to hit another, we can do that with words. My favorite limerick does this:

There once was a poet named Wyatt
Whose voice was remarkably quiet
And then one day
It faded away

Anyway, I wrote it just to comment on the subject artistically. I like to do that. It's not meant to be pitched and may never ever be recorded, though I do have music for it, which I play in my mind...along with the voices in my head that tell me what to type.

Here it is again....

t's a Cliche
(c)2009 words and music by Mike Dunbar

VERSE
The Nasvhille songwriters say don't rhyme "start" with "heart"
But right from the start you put a new beat in my heart
It feels so new but it's the oldest thing of all
It's such a trip the way you made me fall

CHORUS
It's a Cliche
"I love you" is now passe
And those love rhymes have gone away
But still I feel like I'm inventing the wheel
Each time you blow me a kiss it may be old but it's real
So I can't stop myself from these words I say
Even though
It's a Cliche

VERSE
You might not hear my lyrics singing on the radio
They won't open the doors down there on Music...well, you know
But just like Grandpa or the Romans and those old cavemen
We'll find those simple things work over and over amen

CHORUS
It's a Cliche
"I love you" might be passe
And those love rhymes have gone away
But still I feel like I'm inventing the wheel
Each time you blow me a kiss it may be old but it's real
So now I can't stop myself from these words I say
Even though
It's a Cliche

BRIDGE
I'm not afraid to be foolish
You're too much to lose to a trend
So I'll keep saying "I love you"
Over and over and over

CHORUS
It's a Cliche
"I love you" might be passe
And those love rhymes have gone away
But still I feel like I'm inventing the wheel
Each time you blow me a kiss it may be old but it's real
So now I can't stop myself from these words I say
Even though
It's a Cliche
"I love you" might be passe
And those love rhymes have gone away
But still I feel like I'm inventing the wheel
Each time you blow me a kiss it may be old but it's real
So now I can't stop myself from these words I say
Even though
It's a Cliche


##################

Sausage Link, welcome!

Through the tears, through the rain
Through the sorrow, through the morrow,
New the years, new the pain,
Shall we borrow, from the tarot?
Nay, the fears, shall refrain.