JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum So Where Does Your Song Rank On Ourstage?

MIKE DUNBAR

Meant to thank you for your insight....You mentioned long intros....

Well HOLDIN ON' had a 22 second intro & was languishing in the high 200's...Because of your advice I swapped out my song on the 3rd day & inserted a 12 second intro version...

It's stayed relatively low, so yeah watch out for the long intros guys....

Nice call Mike

Steve
Depending on the Genre the intro can be a killer.

Most Country songs average thirteen seconds but even that might be a little long for this competition.
I will give some songs more than 15 seconds if the intro is really good but usually if I don't hear melody and lyrics by twenty seconds I'm gone.

Hey Mike
I was in town all week but I was working like a dog trying to get the rest of the drywall up. Ran into a few snags But I got 'er done. Man I am getting old, or just fat and out of shape.
Now I'm looking for a finisher to tape the drywall. You know anyone?
Sorry I didn't call you but I'll be back next week for three weeks. I'll call you then.

thanks...niteshift..we still are waitng to see if we got the gig

gl

We submitted Ryan's name for the Newport Gig as our JPF representative. We also submitted 2 others who did well also. I hope he has a great show. I actually haven't heard from him, perhaps you can have him stop by here Joanne and fill us in on it all?

Brian

I haven't checked yet today, but yesterday I had a comedy song in #2 spot, called Tax payers blues.

Hi Brian -
Ryan is very talented. He was a big hit at the JPF showcase at the Brooklyn Coffee House in Providence, RI a few years back. It's great to watch his music career take off.
I emailed him with a congrats and haven't heard back yet. Will give another holler. We have an upcoming gig together ... i'm sure he'll be more than happy to stop by and say hey to JPF!
thanks
Joanne

Hey Bill!!
yeah! Hooray!! very talented artist! and a JPF member!
Joanne

Hi Everyone,

I'm elated to have been chosen as the JPF representative for the Newport Folk Festival through OurStage.com. Having lived in Rhode Island and Massachusetts for the last 6 years, I've attended Newport many times and have always been amazed at both the beautiful festival site and impressive artist roster each year. I'm extremely excited to be taking part in the festival, and I hope I do everyone at JPF proud.

I'm playing at 11:30 AM on Sunday, August 3rd on the Waterside Stage. I will be performing solo. The OurStage.com artists are opening the festival each day on both the Harbor and Waterside stages. There is one other singer-songwriter, Sydney Wayser, who will be performing during the same time slot as I a day earlier Saturday. The other artists are American Babies and The Honors, and both bands will play the same time slot (11:30 AM) on the Harbor Stage.

Thank you to Brian for recommending me, and to everyone else who may have given me a positive vote along the way. This is a fantastic opportunity, and I hope to make the most of it!!

Thanks again!!

Ryan

Congrats Ryan! I remember you rocking us out in Rhode Island and Boston during the last Northeast Roadtrip we did and you were a Live Artist of the Year finalist for that tour. (We don't notify finalists unless they win). Our live artist of the year award considers anyone who performs at one of our live JPF events. We take the top 5 performers and then those are used to determine the live artist of the year.

Had you not come out and played live, I wouldn't have known enough about you to put your name forward. Sometimes people don't realize how valuable it can be later down the road to just get involved and do something when an opportunity crops up. Most wouldn't think a friendly little showcase of local JPF members would lead to much. This is a great example of how it always leads to something good, eventually. Sometimes directly, like this, sometimes less directly but just as important. Meeting people face to face when given a chance is always the best way to make an impression and make it POSSIBLE for something good to happen.

Ironically, though we've gotten music from over 35K of our 52K members, I don't think you're one of them this year for the awards Ryan. Make sure you get us anything you didn't enter previously before the August 31st deadline.

Have a great time at Newport and please let us know about the experience after the fact. I am curious to see how it goes for you!

Brian

I have a couple of songs that have been staying pretty much at the same place for the last two weeks. The Meat Packer's Song in Spoken Word has been in the teens and has dropped to #20. Happy Seeing Less Of You has been in Bluegrass all month and has been in the 40s for most of it. Up For Hanky Panky is in Comedy. The odd think about this song is that I've zeroed in on judging in Comedy(there's a lot of crap in this genre right now). I've judged over 400 battles and have as of yet to judge a battle where my song was involved. There's only 60 some songs in this category and I've seen most songs in at least ten battles that I've judged. I even maxxed out early in the month - but even then - no battles involving my song. Mathematically, if I maxxed out of battles, I should have seen my song at least twelve times(there were only thirteen songs at the time). So I'm wondering what's up. I have other songs like Raise A Son and Baby Boomer Man in more competitive categories where artists who currently aren't performing probably don't have a chance.

I'm in the top 5!

Currently my song "Getting Started Part 1" is at #5 in the instrumental charts!

I think a lot of that has to do with picking the right genre to enter the song in. I was only hoping for top 10. No wonder I started getting a ton of friend requests on Myspace.

(and with this post, I have now become a "Serious Contributor", I feel very accomplished)

Update!

I MADE IT TO #1 IN INSTRUMENTAL. AT THE TIME OF THIS WRITING, I HAVE A #1 SONG ON OURSTAGE!

Do I win a prize or something?

I made a screen-capture so that I will have proof and as a nice momento:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v377/manoreza/Mano_Number1.jpg

Mano,

Congrats.. no matter where you end up at months end, it certainly indications that you've hit the mark with that song.

Nice job!

Brian

I reached #2 in comedy and # 3 in traditional country, no #1 though.

This is my best month ever, so far.

ROMance: #2 in Comedy
System: #3 in Techno/Ambient
Rainforest Majesty: #18 in New Age/World
House of Cards: #18 in Rock Instrumental
Breathing You In: #20 in Club/Dance
Drum and Bossa: #35 in Tropical
Labyrinth: #40 in Instrumental

Do yourselves a favor and listen to Andrew Aversa's music. It's excellent.

"Wait in the Valley" is number 5 in Bluegrass.

And Steve, thanks for the thanks.

Didn't Andrew recently turn 21? He's got a bright future in store for him it appears. = )

Brian

Ok, so I entered a few songs last monday. Since then, I've had about 7-10 plays for each song. Most of them were in the 600s-700s at the time I entered them and have now moved up a little bit. One of my songs has gone to #220 in Alt.Country, but the rest have only moved up about 100 or 200 places.

My Question: If you enter the chart at 500+, how many plays would it take to get to the Top 10?

100 "slightly betters"?

5 "by fars"?

Thankfully, all of my songs are moving up, but not very quickly and I'm not sure what to make of it. Too many "draws" or "slightlys"?

Hi emdub...those plays you see are independent of judging--that number of plays you see are only from people checking out your stuff. They won't show how many times the songs are actually being judged...it's a mystery.

Hey I'm clinging to #11 in Comedy...maybe I'll make a quarterfinal for once.

Man, what a bummer!!! If you would have asked me, I'd say that I've really made great strides with my songwriting, performance and production. The results kind of prove otherwise however. Hmmm.

Coupla weeks ago, I got a note from a guy who said the song I posted in "Spoken Word" was touching as it described where he was a while back (It's about a homeless guy). He asked if he could do a back-up music track. I said I'd be honored.

He then sent me another note cursing and complaining about spam. When I wrote I had no idea what he was talking about, he sent this today. Hope someone can answer it clearly (I have no idea how it works!), so I can copy and paste it as a response.

Here is his note from today....

SORRY BEN I EMAILED YOU ABOUT HELPING YOU BRING OUT YOUR SPOKEN WORD...I THINK THIS PLACE IS SPAM...PS...TRY DELETING YOUR TRACKS, MUSIC, ART...YOU CANNOT...WHY...CAUSE THEY THINK THEY OWN US...I AM VETERAN NOBODY OWNS ME....I PAID MY DUES....TRAVIS

Thanks in advance,
Ben

Ben: You can not delete your stuff on OurStage. If you have entered a song/video in the competition, they want the record of it being there. I did some test stuff at first to see how OurStage worked. I sent them an email asking them to remove that trial stuff and they did it for me.

Kevin

I did some test stuff at first to see how OurStage worked. I sent them an email asking them to remove that trial stuff and they did it for me.

OK, so....I'm still not sure. Did they eliminate simply because it was trail stuff...or will they do it if you request it? Thanks

NOT TRUE....

Here's how I got my earlier versions of songs off....

The song cant be entered in a competition...

Where your Title(s) is replace your Title with "REMOVE"....Move the song(s) to the bottom of your songs......Click on "CONTACT US" at the bottom of your page and choose technical help....Ask them to go to your profile and delete the songs titled "REMOVE".....

It will take a few days but they will e-mail you when they have gotten around to deleting your old tune......

SOMEONE HERE OWES ME LUNCH

Later guys

Hey, thanks, Steve. I'll take you to Mr. D's next time you're in B'ham!

Mark this just doesn't sound right. Why on earth wouldn't they include the judging plays in the "plays" count?

How it works? I think they can delete your stuff but you cannot. It is at their discretion.
If I remember correctly they said once a song was entered in a contest it could not be deleted because it was part of the contest results, or something to that effect.
But as far as "owning us" well they do. They sorta own the stuff you upload. It is in the terms and conditions. I expect the third party referred to might be a PRO.

Scope of License: By displaying, publishing, or otherwise posting any Submitted Content on or through the Site, you hereby grant to OurStage a limited, non-exclusive, sub-licensable, worldwide, fully-paid, royalty free license to use, modify, publicly perform, publicly display, reproduce, and distribute such Submitted Content without the requirement to make payment to any third party or the need to seek any third party permission. This license includes the right to host, index, cache, distribute, and tag any Submitted Content.

I'm not real good at interpreting this stuff but it looks to me like you give them the rights to do what ever they want to do with your music, royalty free. But from what I have seen this is standard proceedure on these types of sites.

Now hang on there, Will Robinson...I mean Bill.

WHO is the 3rd party? That wouldn't be us...the ones who submitted it, would it? If so, this is nuttier than a fruitcake. That would mean, they can take everything they think could be a HIT song, pitch it to some heavyweights, and we get NADA??? I just can't see that, but I certainly wanna find out.

I have one in country that is 11 right now. It's high water mark was 7, then it slowly fell to about 70, reversed field and has gradually risen to where it is now. Seems odd. It never skips around...either rising for several days straight or falling. I'll just hope it hasn't risen too soon. I don't even know how it works as the month wears on...if they narrow it down to the top 25, or whatever....

Mike & Brian, thanks for the kind words I did recently turn 21, about a month ago.

Andrew
I can only wish I had been making music when I was twenty one. I often wonder if I could have been a sucess at it had I started when I was young.
Follow your heart and never let anyone tell you you cannot achieve your dreams.
You have a long and sucessful career ahead of you.

Ben
I doubt all but a very few actually read the terms and cnditions of using Ourstage. I did but put my songs there anyway because I see the same type of agreement all the time on these sites....plus I never really expect my songs to get anywhere anyway, LOL.
It seems to be a standard release for these type of sites. They all want the release from any responsibility to pay you for your work.
My read is exactly that. They can rewrite it, rerecord it, distribute it, whatever they want. And you have nothing to say about it. But...IANAL.

I would think party of the first part would be me...the second part would be them...the third part? anyone else, including PRO's. But IANAL

But the good thing is Ourstage actually does offer a way to make money with your music as well as a chance to play with the big boys.
This seems to be a really good site for musicians/performers.

What they are saying in that comment about third parties is that they do not have to pay a third party (i.e. someone OTHER than you, the person who posted it) anything to have the right to have it on their site. They are a contest site. They need to be able to say "here's the songs and where they ranked in each contest." That's part of the interest in the site is to go and hear the songs from various months that did well. And it's also informative to hear the songs that tanked as well if you want to enter and get a feel for what people like and don't like. If they didn't have that language on the site, people who are morons would be looking for any reason they could find to sue them because that is what people do.

If they let anyone remove their work after the contest, what happens if everyone who didn't win removes their songs? There's hardly any indication of what happened. It would be like NFL teams removing all mention of their season records when the playoffs started. How could anyone compare the successful ones to the ones that didn't do as well? That's all part of their sites value and interest to the non artist community. In addition, if there are later claims that something was posted illegally that didn't belong and litigation was involved, they need proof of what was posted. If they let others delete on their own, they'd really be screwed. They have good reason for tight control over that aspect. But in the end, after a request and a little time they will usually (as far as I am aware to this point) remove something you want removed.

I recently had an idiot threaten me and JPF because one of you posted a note which was 100% factually correct about his company (even he admitted it was 100% factually correct) on an unrelated post here. But because it exposed something about his company he didn't want exposed, he demanded I remove it. I told him no. He said his lawyer would be contacting me and he'd force me in court to remove it and pay him damages. I asked him how could the truth damage him? He said it would and he wouldn't tolerate it. (Oh, and he called me at 3:00 AM on my cell and I answered because we have a relative in the hospital so we're always nervous about late phone calls and he was calling from Japan where it was daytime). All this to say that idiots around the world will threaten lawsuits for the most bogus and stupid reason in the world. A company with employees and assets HAS to make sure they are protected. So they have a release/agreement that covers their butts from idiots so that at least if they DO get sued, there's no chance of losing based on the law.

You will find even worse agreements on most other sites where they host music. (Read the one for YouTube or MySpace). When we were considering partnering with Ourstage, I personally felt their agreement was one of the most reasonable I'd seen on the net.

I think before you get worried about what they might do with you your music, it's more relevant to try and improve your work to the point that there would be value in doing something with it in the first place. Most folks don't have that problem. And those who DO have that problem (like Andrew for example) don't get freaked out about this stuff in the first place. If you want to pursue commercial success, you have to realize you'd dealing in the business world and user agreements are going to be part of that.

Brian

"I think before you get worried about what they might do with you your music, it's more relevant to try and improve your work to the point that there would be value in doing something with it in the first place. Most folks don't have that problem. And those who DO have that problem (like Andrew for example) don't get freaked out about this stuff in the first place."

So, essentially, Bill, you see, a coupla slugs like you and I needn't worry about someone stealing something as vapid as what we produce. Therefore, our rant that droned on for what?...pages and pages wasn't it? Well, it was was pointless. But let us, with firm resolve, continue to strive for improvement in our writings, all the while hoping the clock reverses itself and we somehow attain the age of twenty again!

Interesting you assume I am referring to your music Ben. I honestly don't think I've listened to any of your work, certainly not in the last couple years at least if ever and if I have ever heard your work, I have no memory of it's quality good or bad. You're a little paranoid I think. Trust me, people are NOT always talking about you.

My point, however, is still 100% valid no matter your age, style or talent. If you aren't writing music that already has a market and is selling, why would anyone on the planet have any need to steal it? What would they do with it? Publishers have hundreds of thousands of songs available that they can't get recorded which they already legally have the rights to. Same with hit songwriters. There's no market to steal songs from anyone who isn't commercially viable. And even in those cases, songwriting theft is actually quite rare. It's simply too hard to get anything recorded by anyone that can make money in the first place. Artist who DO consider outside songs aren't going to turn to a questionable resource to get them (i.e. from someone who would steal a song). And if there's any hint at a dispute over the song, they REALLY steer clear completely.

People need to get their music out there. If you wait until someone's paying for it, it's likely never going to get out there. Most people never place a single song in their lifetime with another artist. Even fewer ever make any money from it when they do. If people sit around afraid someone is going to steal something they could never give away if they wanted to, they have little chance to get anywhere, or to learn or to improve. If you think this is bad advice or it ruffles your feathers for some unknown reason, that's your own problem, not mine.

We checked out the user agreements from Ourstage and found them to be reasonable. If you or anyone else finds them not to be, then certainly don't post anything there. Everyone has different views on what is safe and what isn't.

Brian

It's definitely true. Somewhere back in this very thread you'll find it stated for fact by Danny from OurStage. But before you read this whole thread, you might want to make some popcorn and grab a beverage.

I'm sure you are right, Brian. Just a complete coincidence that you bring it all up right on the heels of Bill and I BRIEFLY discussing that very thing. (I think my comment was ALL of two lines, before I moved on to something else, and those 2 lines would never have been written had Bill not broached the subject, albeit a FAR CRY from, let me see...what were your EXACT words? Ah, yes, "Freaked Out!" All the while you mention specifically one person who HAS reached the point that he might worry about song/lyric theft.

Say what you want, man. There is much more than mere implication in your words. In a nutshell,

"Only those like Andrew need to be worried about the thing Bill freaked over."

Brian
I really like JPF but this is the second time you have basically said we all suck here except for a select few.
Now you are going to get all defensive and say you didn't say that. that's OK.


One thing I have learned over the last couple years is you think Country music and country writers are the bottom of the barrel. You find any way you can to run us down.

I'm trying to figure out where I said someone was going to steal my songs, or where I freaked out.
All I did was paste a copy of the terms and conditions of Ourstage. And said it is standard practice.
I also tried to explain what I remembered them sayng about deleteing songs.

That was a response to the person that sent Ben the E-mail. That was FREAKED OUT.
And it DOES say they can use our music any way they see fit and they do NOT have to pay any Royalties. If we give them the right to do that then we have nothing to complain about.

It is remarkable to me that you run a site for songwriters and musicians then post up these threads telling us how worthless we are and we are never going to succeed no matter how hard we try. The odds are against us.
That we have no talent and never will have, That's what I read your remarks as saying.

Thanks for the pep talk Brian
I feel so much better now.

Actually I said that people like Andrew usually DON'T worry because they understand the way sites that host music work and are taking advantage of them. And that's still true. So is the entire point I was making.

I just went back and re-read. There were several people talking about this topic and my post simply continued the discussion and addressed quite a few people's posts. In fact, one of them was the email you quoted Ben. Go back and read them in order. The guy you quoted is completely paranoid as indicated by what you included. He thinks Ourstage thinks they own him? What?

From a continued discussion where I mentioned Andrew as an EXAMPLE, not as the ONLY person who would qualify, you personalized it to be about you and Bill and suggested some kind of direct insult to your work. I don't know anything about your work Ben. And Bill knows what I think about his recording and if he has a concern, he's quite a big boy and can discuss it for himself without you dragging him into your completely off base rant.

Brian

Let me tell you something, Brian. You have a penchant for throwing around words like "rant", totally out of context. I consider what YOU said to be far more of an indignant rant than anything I said. You make a point of saying that, to your knowledge, you have never read or listened to even one of my compositions. Was that meant to put me in my place, or do you make it a habit of not reading or listening to members songs?

Since you seem to be omnipresent on every thread, you have to glean info from somewhere. How did you discover Andrew as a talent? I have twice mentioned on this thread that I have a song in the top 10 in country. Did you just happen to miss that...the first and second time I posted it???. I could honestly not give a rat's rear that you've discounted/avoided everything I've produced. I still think my interpretation of what you said regarding Bill and me is right on.

Plus, I hardly call what I said a RANT. Since you claim to have read all the preceding posts, then you might have enough common decency about you to REALIZE the guy I made that first post in regard to, obviously has some issues. I clearly stated that he wrote me a note saying that he liked my song...I didn't go into particulars except to say...aw, hell, I'll just re-paste what I wrote, followed by his note to me.

"Coupla weeks ago, I got a note from a guy who said the song I posted in "Spoken Word" was touching as it described where he was a while back (It's about a homeless guy). He asked if he could do a back-up music track. I said I'd be honored."

SORRY BEN I EMAILED YOU ABOUT HELPING YOU BRING OUT YOUR SPOKEN WORD...I THINK THIS PLACE IS SPAM...PS...TRY DELETING YOUR TRACKS, MUSIC, ART...YOU CANNOT...WHY...CAUSE THEY THINK THEY OWN US...I AM VETERAN NOBODY OWNS ME....I PAID MY DUES....TRAVIS

So the "rant" you are referring to (one of them anyway) is from an ex-military, recently homeless man. Is that the best you can do, Brian? Even if it is a RANT by an unfortunate, paranoid patriot, HE didn't post it here. I did, but ONLY to garner information that I could send to him to hopefully appease. I could have gotten have-cocked and told him to go f himself.

Your confidence in your supreme "rightness" in all situations, admissions of error, misspeaking, and apologies be damned, reminds me of one of the FEW times I have seen you even SLIGHTLY admit to being wrong, and that was only to a pro this past WEAK (pun intended)on the mentor thread. Funny thing to me was, the entire time you were administering an undeserved "GROUP" admonishment, you were continuing to do the VERY thing that you deemed worthy of chastisement. No one should take pot shots at the poor lady in distress. Your exact quotes are in red...you closed the thread after you got last word, but you are the king, so... To wit:

At what point did it become permissible to dismiss Redlady's lyric? Most of us, in our responses DIDN'T!

While chastising the critiques in general, and lauding Pat in particular, you thought it perfectly fine to say:

"The difference is that she knows how to critique something, even a very weak lyric, and still find a way to reach a positive result. I think what was most exposed here, was not that Schantell had a weak lyric. It's that SO MANY OF US HAVE WEAK critique skills. As WEAK AS HER LYRIC WAS..."

"Her response made those comments looks just as weak and off base as the weakest link in Schantell's lyric." ((TRULY amazes me that you could say all that after jumping everyone who dismissed her lyric out of hand!)

So, I'm wondering, Brian, were all of those comments considered by you to be postmortem, thereby making them in no way hurtful? Seems to me that is tantamount to saying....

"OK. It is a well-established consensus by now, and we can all agree, that Hiram is fat and ugly, so when I allude to that fact several times in a row in just a moment (in Hiram's presence, no less), please bear in mind that even the Pro gently acknowledged that fact, so when I repeat it, it isn't meant to be construed as pouring salt in the wound!" (All the while saying how much should be learned from Pat's critique...keeping comments constructive and kind).

Very strange, but by no means could there be the slightest thing questionable about it, since you said it (again, while talking down to most of us).

Brian's new moniker: "Your Supreme Rightness" That's a good title. I want that title!

Kevin

Just thought I'd chime in. I posted one of my songs(She's The One) in Americana/ Alt Country and although it has not done very well, it's at 324 right now. This has been a real education for me. It is very helpful to have direct comparisons of what a marketable song is and is not. Although I'm not really sure about the genre question of where my song should have been, I have to say that I grudgingly admit the shortcomings of my stuff compared to many higher ranked songs ahead of me. In the end this has opened my eyes and now I understand where I need to go to improve my stuff. Good sight! I think I'm hooked!! lol
Steve

Stephen: I believe that OurStage is excellent vehicle to see how people like the first 20-30 seconds of your song. If you want to do well there, you had better have a hot beginning. I have to assume that if you want to win anything you have to have a great "complete" song, too.

I am not particularly convinced that I can pull off a great enough beginning to move up through the ranks, but I still will get a try here and there. The bottom line is that I just don't have "professional grade" vocals -- and that is just the way it is.

Kevin

Stephan,

I don't know the workings of it, but if there are hundreds of songs in a certain genre, then it would be hard to cheat. My song, which is, at this moment,#6 in country, out of 539 songs was as low as 169 at one point, rose to 7, sank close to triple digits again, and came back to it's current position. So, don't give up. Heck, I view it as a fun thing, that can be helpful. I have one in Christian that's at 190+ and I thought it had the best chance of doing well of the 3 I put up. I have one other that's about 25th, but considering there's only about 50 songs in that genre....

Ben,

The rant I was referring to was simply this:

"So, essentially, Bill, you see, a coupla slugs like you and I needn't worry about someone stealing something as vapid as what we produce. Therefore, our rant that droned on for what?...pages and pages wasn't it? Well, it was was pointless. But let us, with firm resolve, continue to strive for improvement in our writings, all the while hoping the clock reverses itself and we somehow attain the age of twenty again!"

As for how I would know Andrew's music? That's easy. He entered the JPF Music awards, scored multiple nominations and swept his categories for both album and song as a 19 year old in the last awards. In addition, he was one of a large number of members, mentors and attorneys I asked to check out Ourstage before we partnered with them. I always do a great deal of due diligence before we partner with someone. Andrew checked it and out and was one of the first of our members (aside from a few that were already on the site) to join. During our first month as partners, I monitored all our members music on Ourstage very closely and acted as an advisor (which I still do when I have time) to Ourstage on how to improve the site and giving them feedback from our members and observations I was making about the site. Andrew had some new songs on there that did very well and his girlfriend and fellow JPF member won the 5K that month and Andrew was involved with her music as well. So, yes, I know his stuff pretty well. He's very talented. And beyond that, he's very smart about online websites for posting music. That's why I asked him to help check out Ourstage in the first place. And that's also why he was an obvious example of someone to mention in my statement above. Seems to be a pretty logical person's name to evoke. A multiple award winner, a seasoned online artist and someone who isn't paranoid about getting his music out there. Yup. That seems to qualify in my eyes.

As for why I don't know your music. Let's see the reasons here:

1. You've never entered the JPF music awards, even though we've gotten 40,000 albums and well over a half million songs this year alone. I checked, you've also never entered a previous year. I can't hear your music if you don't send it in.

2. You've never come out to a JPF event in person and performed like 17,000 other members have. We were even in your state last year doing a show in Birmingham. You weren't there performing. I can't hear you if you don't perform.

3. You've never gone out of your way to support JPF. You're not on the list of donors for example who are helping us get a new server so the site works faster and people can do searches again and we can host songs and videos and other content. I do try to check out music from folks who support the cost of running JPF. I don't think that applies to you.

4. You've never been a volunteer for JPF for the many different programs and things that need to be done. Most of the top Posters have given back in a variety of ways, not just financial, but with their time helping out with things. This is a volunteer run organization. No one gets paid a dime, including me. I do try to check out the music of those who help JPF out whenever I can. I don't think that applies to you.

5. I don't listen to MP3 files very often, nor do I do critiques very often. Usually when I do hear one on the site it's because I am drawn into a discussion or the file itself is relevant in some way (like the time I spent on the Ourstage site). Every now and then I will find a title interesting and check it out or there will be some other reason to click an MP3 link but those times are few and far between. I am not a big fan of reading stand alone lyrics, so I don't often read those either. If I was going to do so, however, I would likely do it in a case of someone who's a friend and a positive part of JPF. It's obvious we're not friends, and I wouldn't consider you to be a positive part of JPF. Positive people don't physically threaten the owner of the site by saying they are former Alabama football players and can kick their ass. In this case, that DOES apply to you. Remember?

So no Ben, I am not familiar with your music. But I am definitely familiar with your regular negative attitude and the level of animosity you continue to show for me, and the lack of respect you have for the work I've done here. You give very little in terms of positiveness to JPF and you're a hot head on your best day and spoiling for a fight on your worst. All of this is true. And yet I still let you come here and use the site for your own benefit as you see fit. And you think I am the problem here? Your negatives might be more tolerable if you also had something positive to balance it out. If you have it, I haven't seen it yet.

I suggest either you step away and give your negative vibe a time out, OR you simply go away and never come back at all. Is there any part of that you don't understand? Please go back and read it if you don't. There might be a quiz later.

Brian

Stephan
One thing I have learned from Ourstage is the Bar is set quite high. Especially vocals. I have listened to a lot of music on that site and there are some very very talented people there.

Use it as a way to improve. Listen to what is winning in your chosen Genre. It has been an eye opener for me. I still struggle with the genre clasification. To my ears everthing I do is Country but I think it isn't necesarily so.
Hang in there, keep workin' it.

Good points Bill. I found that to be the same experience. I even received a couple of emails from Ourstage saying they respectfully changed a song to another category, to be a better fit. Now that's an attentive site! That means at least some staff is listening to all the songs, and actually caring about the end result. Not common at all, huh?

And Brian,,,,,Man! I can tell Ben that I know first hand what you do, from you giving me pointers here and there, and giving me an opportunity to try a song out at the showcases. And I only posted my opinions on the site, and not really giving that much in donations. I heard your voice in person Brain, and what Ben doesn't realize is the honesty and intention of your printed words. I understood your printed words more after meeting you.
Even in your latest reply here, I could hear your matter of fact way of talking, and not being mean spirited. The reserve of your temper amazes me, from some of the attacks you get. You don't demand a fee from members. You allow opinions to stand, even when they turn into attacking you personally. I would have been spitting out my words in a reply after such a rant. It's like he, or some others only hear what they want to hear so they can further attack.

I would like to try to balance the vibe above by saying a BIG THANK YOU for all you do for any member that wishes to take advantage of this site. And, to let you know that besides all the benefits of this site you and your brother created that I already mentioned, that one recent very cool thing happened:

Our band just played at a local small venue. The crowd was sparse from people being down the Jersey shore and other summer reasons. BUT, after one member from here, (Jeff Epstein), drove FROM the Jersey shore, (a long way), to hear us for the first time, he gave us all a lift. I recognized him from his avatar. He was beaming with smiles as he rush in during our fourth song and jump in the front row, dead center! ONE person who cares that much makes a huge difference. WE played our hearts out, and as I would like to think that would have happened anyway, I feel at least Iggy and I raised the performance level up a notch to make it our best night so far. If that is not making a difference, (positivity), then I don't know what else would be.

Without YOU and this site, there's no playing out for me solo in the first place. There's no band, for I wouldn't have had the momentum going when Bass2x called me just to "Jam" with him with his horn. I talked him into playing bass again, as I was all hopped up from your encouragement, and for allowing me to attend multiple showcases, whereas you could have asked me not to wear out my welcome. YOu gracously accepted where I wanted to play and even when I wanted to go on! Talk about devotion and caring to a JPF member. All I did was ask. Again, I wasn't a contributor, or any big deal, (still not). All Ben ever had to do is sign up or send in, to be heard by you, I know. From my first sending of another song 10 years ago, you kept interested. I know that goes for many here. As far as going to sites, I remember you telling me that you have a LOT to listen to with the awards, and would rather not go to site after site, having to sift though several pages that some people would have us all do, (jump through hoops to get to our songs). BUT, all anyone had to do to get listened by you was to simply send you a CD. I asked, and your answered. Done! I know it is not from NOT wanting to hear anybody's material, as it's a time issue, obviously. Can't be blamed for not hearing anyone's tunes, or reading lyrics, for sure. I don't do that much of that, and I don't have a million songs to listen to each year!

I saw you deal with the odd and nasty sound people at a certain venue, and not blow up in their face, as most would have for the way you were treated. (Really, it was the way your JPF members were treated, and you came to our defense in such a good character way about you. I felt proud and at ease at hav ing such a postive leader representing us all that night, (and really, that is how I hear you in your posts). Concerned for the whole group, and taking on individuals, either for the good or not so good for some, as the situation develops. One more thing. (And I know I am missing many more). I had asked you if you would ask someone you have good contacts with, to listen to a certain song.
To my delight, you had already done that for me weeks before, and told me exactly what the BIG guy from one BIG company said,,,,that he liked the song, but didn't know what market HE could work it in. I was happy as anything just to know you were working my promotion without letting it be known. I think that is great of you, and I know you must have done that for many others as you hear fit. If all the above about you is not being a great owner of an organization, then again, I don't know what is.

To Ben: If you met Brian, you wouldn't have had the same reaction, I'm sure. I would bet my house on it. It's like once we get a locked in defensive mode thing going, it becomes offensive, and gets blown out of proportion. All of what I said about Brian are facts, not ideas of some words here or there, or thoughts of "why not me", or similar. I can assure you, Brian is not a bad guy, or an unfair guy, or a mean spirited guy, even in the most debated discussions, which is a rare quality when just talking in print.

The end of my rant,
John

Bill,

I just saw your earlier post. So now your claim is that I am anti-country and that I don't respect people who perform or write country music? Do I have that right? Are you serious?
What do you base that on? That I don't like your singing?

We've given out more awards to country artists and writers than to any other genre in the Founders Awards, where all genres compete head to head.. and I oversee all of that. 3 of our 5 Song of the Year winners are country songs (though technically Wide Open Spaces was in the Americana Category that year because they used electric guitar instead of Fiddle like the Dixie Chicks did), booked more country artists to perform at JPF special events than any other genre, brought on more country oriented Mentors than any other genre and so on. I used to volunteer for the NSAI for 7 years before starting JPF. We've visited and interviewed more country music industry experts at publishers, labels, studios and even the reps who specialize in it at the PRO's than any other genres. I started as a country writer myself and my first 6 songs published were Country songs. Hell I even wore a Cowboy hat for the first 2 years of JPF before we got the Red Baseball caps. How much more country cred do I need with you? Especially compared the other 90+ genres of music ALSO made by our members. Good music is good. Bad music is bad. It doesn't matter what genre it is for those purposes. And we ironically get a bad rap here because our board is so filled with country writers that the other genres often feel left out and unwelcome. That's a constant battle and if we're so anti-country, you'd think that wouldn't be the case right? And all that isn't enough?

You and Ben seem to have all sorts of complaints. But I still challenge you to show me where my advice was incorrect? You can't because it isn't. So instead you guys are now claiming I don't respect Country music. That's the best you can do? Tell that to Melody Guy, the artist with the most nominations in our JPF history and the most founders awards as well.. all for.. drum roll please.. COUNTRY MUSIC. Tell that to Chris Young who credited us for nurturing him right here on these very boards. If we are so anti-country, I think he would have noticed right? I doubt Nashville Star would have come to us year after year asking for our help getting talent signed up if we were so anti-country.

Take or leave my advice.. I certainly can only lead the horse to the water. But your claims are ridiculous and so easily disproved by simple numbers and facts that I can't believe you even tried to get away with it.

I also would like to see where I have said "we all suck here except for a select few." I can't seem to find that anywhere.

Bill.. why not use the time you're spending blaming me for somehow oppressing you to write and record some better songs? Seriously. That's what you have to do if you want to be more successful.

Brian

Brian
You said you don't think my songs, my singing, or my recordings are good enough to compete. I can live with that. I don't like a lot of people's songs.
I would hate to think the only thing being judged is vocal ability. Then again I hear some singers on there that are pretty bad, LOL.
You suggested I might use a professional for my songs and see how much difference it makes. Well I took your advice, it didn't help much. So I can only conclude the song itself was not as good as I, and most people I talked to, thought it was.

Oh! Those people were Song_U, The session players who did the song, Barbara Cloyd, and a few others in the Biz.
Why it has not done well on Ourstage is still a concern, and a mystery, for me.
I have been watching Ourstage very closely to try to figure out what is happening.
I have a few theories but I will keep them to myself. I don't want to look like I am complaining.

I would like the ability to question things without always being told to quit complaining. I think I have a right to ask why something is the way it is. I ask why we cannot be told how many times our song is judged. You say it will help the cheaters. I don't see how so it is a difference of opinion.

I think it smells like the Government saying that information is classified, it's a matter of National security.

You said I should be more interested in how many people actually seek out the song and play it than how many times it is judged. OK I did that. I was watching numbers of plays versus the ranking of one of my songs.
Well, to my surprise the song was getting played more times than some of the songs in the top spots. Now I have to figure out why the song has not done better in the rankings. People like it enough to seek it out and listen to it but not enough to vote for it? I find that strange. I would like to understand that.

My questioning these things don't mean I am complaining. It means I want to know why.

Some folks will sit back and watch things happen and never question it. Some folks won't. I won't. When something seems out of whack I question it.

Whether or not JPF has chosen Country songs as winners should have nothing to do with what you like or don't like. At least I hope it doesn't. I would hope that the contests and awards were being judged and determined by JPF Members, not by you.
That is what makes JPF such a special place. You allow the members to decide things.

I won't argue with you about what you did or did not say. It is only my impression and it may be far from correct. But it is my impression non the less. I can't put it in "quotes" because there is no exact quote. So maybe I should keep my impressions to myself.
In the meantime I am going to try to figure out what it is I have to do to move to the next level in my persuit of writing a hit Country song. And to be honest I think I am doing pretty good for an old man who didn't write his first song until he was 58 years old. And that's only been five years.

Has anyone noticed the new "My Dashboard" that comes up when you log into OurStage. I like it, I get to see how lousy I am doing without a lot of hassle.

Kevin

Bill,

The Founders awards are called that for a reason. (Remember, this has nothing to do with the Song or Album winners in the general awards.. we're talking the Founders Awards that are above and beyond those others). It's takes someone familiar with ALL the music who can take all the results, choose a small number of folks who are informed and open minded and whittle it all down to the final Founders Awards winners. We make that all 100% clear and we even NAME it the Founders Awards. No one else has heard ALL the nominees. No one else has spoken to ALL the judges. No one else has seen ALL the results at every stage and read every single judges comment. I do 3 primary things in the awards. I initially screen 100% of the entries to determine genres (and also to remove the bottom 10-30%), I then switch to overseeing the entire screening process all the way down to the nominations by coordinating ALL the judges, answering questions, double checking to make sure people are doing a thorough job and then compiling the judges results into the nominations. Then, after all the voting happens among the Fans, Peers and Industry folks, I take those results and combine them all into a manageable process so that a smaller group of trusted and proven judges (i.e. the cream of the entire crop) can determine their recommendations for the Founders Awards winners. Once I have all those opinions collected (and they rarely agree with each other) I have to make final judgement calls on those Founders Awards winners. This is the only way it can work without it simply being a popularity contest. In the case of the Artist of the Year winners, we ALSO have to consider if they are the right people represent the entire organization. So character and involvement with the org. is part of that. Usually I am the only person who actually knows these folks directly. Who else can make that judgement call? So we name those awards The Founders Awards for a reason. It wasn't random. We spend a lot of time figuring out how to make all of this work. It's not done lightly or carelessly and it's definitely not done with any level of bias. If it was, we wouldn't see such diversity across the various winners. But, one category HAS in fact done better.. Country. And that's only possible because I have no bias for or against anything.. I just pick the best work and if Country or Rap or Death Metal is what moves everyone the most, that's what is going to win.

Your comments are frankly deeply offensive by the way. You throw around false accusations based not on fact but on your "impression" with no facts at all to back it up. What you've done is no less offensive to someone who has dedicated his life to helping Musicians and Songwriters for no personal gain than falsely accusing a civil rights worker of being a racist or bigot. I really thought you were better than that. On that, apparently, I was wrong.

Now.. since you and Ben have completely hijacked this post about Ourstage so you could hurl personal attacks against me, I have to do something about it. I suppose I could start a new post and simply move this one off line. It's sad that you've screwed over a post that was about supporting and discussing a great new company who is helping make our awards and everything else here possible so that people can use it for free and participate whether they have money or not. I was going to create some new message boards for the Community Partners, so perhaps I will use this as the motivator to do that. If I do move this post off line, it's not because Bill and Ben have attacked me (which is why I didn't and never do remove posts where people attack me personally), but rather it's off topic and most folks want to talk about how cool Ourstage is or ask questions about how it works or how to use it.

Brian