JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum So Where Does Your Song Rank On Ourstage?

Bill,

I agree. I have judged about 1800 pairs of songs. Unless it is really bad, I always listen to at least 30 seconds; often skipping ahead, afterwards, to the 2:00 and 2:30 spots, approximately. Sometimes a chorus or bridge can really add something to an otherwise decent but not special song. And, as has been poiinted out, most intros are close to 15 seconds...many much longer.

But, if the song gives me absolutely nothing but intro, or even less, for more than 30 seconds, I am done with it. Just my take.

Al

It's really terrible that anyone would ask their fans to "game" like that. I have asked people I know to vote, but I only ask them to vote honestly - if they like other songs besides mine, they should vote on them too.

I suppose it wouldn't hurt for me to ask the same of people here. I have a song "Throwdown" in the Electronic category, as well as a collab with my girlfriend Jill Goldin in New Age/World. You might not normally judge these categories, but if you enjoy music from either of us, I'd appreciate if you dropped in and did a few rounds (there are only 45 total). Plus there's really some great stuff in both categories, such as Stephen Brannen's "Lord of the Dance" in New Age/World.

I have to admit all this talk of cheating and the exposure of an actual case has turned me off from voting.
I'm a lousy judge of music anyways.

I agree Al, 30 seconds of intro is to much. But it seems some Genres that is acceptable.

There have been a few that I knew within 15 seconds that I did not like what I was hearing.

Andrew
There is nothing wrong with promotion. It is your job to promote yourself. It is expected.
Had you not mentioned it I would not have known you were there. So go ahead, Promote as much as you want. that's a good thing.

But asking someone to cheat for you....well...that's just wrong.

The intro to "Hotel California" is pretty long. But it's compelling and fully engages the listener. The boring two-chord lick that plays 8 times, on the other hand...

I am getting a lot of emails about this. Please hold off a bit and give the Ourstage folks a chance to investigate this and react accordingly. No matter how honest of a system you try to create, people sadly will always seek to get an unfair advantage, whether it's Major League Baseball (Steroids), the National Football League (The Patriots Spygate), NASCAR (Some Toyota teams trying to cheat), The NYC Marathon (where they took the subway most of the race) or any others. (Politics anyone?). Daniel is aware of this issue and I've made some suggestions I think could dramatically limit the impact of this type of effort. If the site had millions of voters, even this type of cheating would be fruitless, but remember, Ourstage is a new and growing site. You can build a great system but you can't predict how people will try to cheat it. All you can do is react to it when it happens and do the right thing then.

Let's give them a chance to fix this.

Brian

Brian Bergeron is at #2 in the Newport category!

Edit: It seems to be a pretty decent song, though.

Kevin

This guy Bergeron should be disqualified if it can be proved he asked people to deliberately vote songs down that were above his position. This will just encourage other people to do the same.

I am totally in favour of not knowing a songs position till after the contest to prevent this sort of thing. I also think voting songs as the same should be abandoned. In fact I do not agree with degrees either it should be a straight choice of which song is better one or the other. This would remove temptation to cheat and get fairer results. I know for a fact that a lot of people are voting same to lump many songs together so that a song voted far better jumps many places.

Big Jim: Go back to page 2 on this thread where I posted Brian's blog at Myspace. In it he says:

If he wins, it will be a major black eye for OurStage.

Kevin

Karma is a funny thing.. quite often those that have bad karma find it catches up to them before the end. Read into that anything you want. = )

Within the stuff presented to solve this problem was to stop showing the rankings. The rankings are an important part of their site, so of course they're hesitant to do so. They, for good reasons, feel that it keeps people coming back to check in on the stats. So I offered a solution for that as well as a few other things I think will improve the experience for voters and contestants alike. But we're musicians.. not tech people. We can't expect the tech minded folks to relent as quickly as we'd like. But I know Daniel is working very hard to get these points across. Feel free to email him with your thoughts as well.

In addition.. feel free to let the person in question know what you think of his attempt to cheat. (At least, that's how I see it anyway). If he realizes people are on to him, perhaps he'll see the light.

And remember... Karma.. Karma.. Karma...

Brian

Well I just checked his profile and no one is leaving any comments about it. Not sure what that means. Maybe it's not as big a deal as we think since no one has told him how they feel.
I figure there is probably a lot of other folks doing the same thing.

I think you are right Brian. Humans are basically a deceitful species.

Bill,

What profile are you looking at?

His Profile on Ourstage.

http://www.ourstage.com/fanclub/brianbergeronandthelategreats

At least it looks like you can leave comments there. If you click a persons name under the song avatar it takes you to their profile.

If you tell people how they rank without telling them how anyone else ranked you could have the best of both worlds. If I only know how I'm ranked, it really doesn't help me game the system.

This guy's behavior is a little disappointing but hardly surprising. I suspect many others do the same kind of thing.

Scott

Andrew Aversa (my boyfriend!) is currently #2 in Electronic with "Throwdown," and our collaboration "Red July" is sitting at #1 in New Age/World at the moment. Michael Borges' collaboration is in #2 there! Glad to see so many people getting involved.

There are still some kinks in the system, of course, but I am sure OurStage will continue to improve. I was admittedly surprised at some of the tracks that made it to the Top 10 in New Age/World this month above so many others that seemed more deserving...

HI Jillian,

Nice to see you on the site and congrats on your win last month. It's clear that some really weak artists have figured out how to make the top 10. It's unfortunate because in every category there's far more deserving songs than many in the top 10's. Let's hope that at least some deserving songs win their categories and a truly deserving song wins the 5K. If they ever have a really weak winner, that will be a signal that there's a big problem that has to be addressed. Let's see how it plays out.

Brian

Hi Kevin I read your post and that is what made me respond by saying the guy should be DQd. This sort of behavious should not be tolerated. If steps are taken against him it would be a major black eye for him. I was trying to start a thread with a poll to see how others felt but could not get the poll thing to work. I think a lot of people are unhappy with the voting system and feel it should be altered. This latest BLATANT CHEATING has added fuel to the fire. Something has to be done otherwise people will lose faith in what has been up till now a great site.

Big Jim: He's at #1 right now in the Newport category.

Kevin

We've uncovered the same issue with another contestant. Nicole Berke is doing the same thing and instructing her fans to as well.

As for letting these folks know that everyone knows they are cheating, you should all send them a note to that effect.

Brian

Nicole -- that's too bad. I liked her song and I think she won one of the few battles I have been able to do this month. I think OurStage needs to place a front page comment that they have discovered that "gaming" is going on and that is giving a select few an unfair advantage.

I was wondering if OurStage could be sued if they suspended the folks that are doing this (since, technically it might not be "against the stated rules"). However, it looks like Ourstage says (in the terms and conditions) that they have the right to block/terminate anyone for any reason.

I did send a comment to Daniel about the "cheating", but I haven't commented directly to Brian B or Nicole. I probably won't.

Kevin

If they cheat and win, it will leave a bad taste in their mouths and every-one's mouth that know they cheated. The prize money is not that great and the prestige will be tainted. If they win fairly in the future, people will think they cheated again.

Kevin
"I did send a comment to Daniel about the "cheating", but I haven't commented directly to Brian B or Nicole. I probably won't."

You are correct not to comment directly. It is not up to us to start wars or get involved with individuals it is up to Ourstage to sort this matter out. The ball is in their court.

Everett
I am sorry but I don't believe that. Cheaters don't care. If they did they would not cheat in the first place.

Ahhhh! yes,
Not my job. Lets all sit back and let the Government (Ourstage) handle the problem
LOL

Bill You know me by now. If I think somebody is wrong I tell them. However it is up to Ourstage to take official action on this one. I am sure they know about the problem and comments from us to individual cheats will do little to stop the practice. It has to be nipped in the bud before it escalates.

This is precisely why I never mentioned this contest to anyone via my newsletter. I hated the idea of it being just another "Vote for me !" fest where people would go to the site and vote for me regardless of how my song stacked up to others. So silly.

http://www.steverobinsonmusic.com/

Post deleted by Steve Robinson

Bill,

I rarely disagree with you, 'cept maybe on politics...rarely, however, on issues of music. But, this time, I'm kinda on the other side...with Big Jim. OurStage is their show. It is up to them to decide how to handle it...if they do at all. Since it is their site, their investment, they have to make the decisions. But, we as participants have the option to NOT participate if we are unhappy with the way it is handled....or NOT handled. In this case, our inaction (no future participation) would be far more effective than ranting to them. They are aware, so, as Big Jim said, the ball is in their court.

I am going to initially give OurStage the benefit of the doubt and see how it is handled. It cannot be done instantly. In fact, I am not sure if there is anything they can do for this month at all. But, if they do not address the issue before next month's contest, then that is a much different story. I would then be much less willing to participate.

Just my thoughts. Take care, Bill. Hello to Sylvia.

Al

Everett,

Bill is right. Those who choose to cheat rarely have any guilt aboutit. It is noble to believe that all men realize their transgressions and will atone for them. But, unfortunately, that is not real life. Win at any cost is very prevalent in today's society. But, I wish you were right!

Al

I had something else to bring up that I think could be improved on OurStage, actually. What do you guys think? Brian, maybe you would consider bringing this up with the staff?

I'd really like to see a public list of the people who are getting selected for all those various industry prizes offered each month. I think anyone making it to the finals would really benefit from seeing that information! Neither Andrew nor I were contacted despite having been in the top 3 for March. I'm not complaining, but it does seem as though the sponsor companies could theoretically get away with not following through.

Along with my cash prize last month, I was supposed to receive a wardrobe of clothing from a company called BC Ethic. When I hadn't heard from them after a couple weeks, I decided to give them a call myself to see what was up (also because they only do male clothing, and I'm a gal). The people I spoke with over the phone hadn't even heard of OurStage, and they connected me to an answering machine. I left a message to the company CEO, but he never returned my call.

Granted, I DID eventually tell Gloria Utzig from OurStage that I would rather defer the wardrobe prize to a high-ranking band that could actually get use out of it, since I don't wear grungy mens clothes. But I still never heard back, so it just seems a little fishy that they never got in touch...

Also, on a side note, Andrew still hasn't received his gift card for winning the Techno channel prize. Maybe things are just very slow?

Steve,

I think that is the eventual goal of the site. It's just going to take some time to determine how to deal with people being dishonest. Someone will always look for the short cut to success, especially those short on talent and long on desperation. The good news is that clearly the system is working more often than not as you made the top 10 (and it was well deserved). I found 4 very strong songs in your category, 2 middling songs and 4 weak songs. I think as time progresses (and the quality of music uploaded improves) we'll find that the top 10 songs are all worth of attention and in those cases, it's hard to find fault with any song that would win. I think the 4 strongest songs in your category would all be respectable winners. And when there's something out there that is bringing attention to great music that otherwise might not get noticed, that is far more positive than the actions of a few cheaters. If all the artists involved encouraged their fans to vote, the results would balance out and even the cheaters eventually couldn't succeed because all the other fans who would be voting honestly would put them in their deserved spot.

We do our awards based on the idea that we're bringing attention and recognition to a lot of deserving songs. Do we make mistakes? Sure. But in the end, if our nominees are all songs that deserve attention, then we've won the war we're fighting. It's very difficult to get unbiased praise these days. Magazine reviews are fixed and fake, (like the famous review of the latest Black Crowes album done before the reviewer at a large magazine had even heard it), Radio play is still paid for in a variety of ways and TV is a whole other world filled with back door deals and favoritism and schemes. Our awards I think are the best and most honest attempt to recognize music for no gain to those doing the work. Ourstage, in the context of a company trying to eventually make a profit, is clearly doing the right thing to try and do the same work. (I think Pandora net radio also is trying to do the right thing by the way).

We need to keep the honest people involved long enough to overcome the actions by a few cheaters. It's rare to find a company so responsive to the comments and opinions of their users (try getting MySpace to change something.. ha!). Let's all work together to help them get it all right because if they succeed, we all win.

In the meantime, we still have a lot of JPF members in the running in a lot of categories.. let's hope the most deserving ones win!

Brian

We are going to address the delete issue. We know its important. Won't get into all the reasons we aren't comparable with those other sites in terms of that functionality, but suffice to say, it's something we plan on addressing.

No Tammy. Nobody knows but us who is reporting material. We encourage our community to help police the content. So much to review!

Good folks of JPF!

I want to respond to every post, but I didn't know about this thread in time and it will take me WAY to long to do so and I've run out of my energizer bunny batteries. Finals week, as you all know. But let me try my best to make this as short and sweet as possible.

When humans are involved there is always risk for poor judgement. Either apathy, or otherwise. That said, we do a pretty good job, best I've seen, of real-time online ranking of content in a fan driven model. Sure you can argue there is better stuff that didn't make it into quarters, but that's a reflection of who is doing the judging. More people judge, more people judge by their taste, the results may very well change. Some changes you'd agree with, some, perhaps not so much. Its as varied as the people's tastes and connections using the site.

The bottom line is we are always looking to improve and make our service to emerging artists better. That mission doesn't change. That's why we feel so grateful to be a part of JPF, a community that shares our values. But as we evolve its important to remember to support what we do and continue to suggest ways we can improve.

Also, remember, that yes, the cash prize is nice, but LOTS of opportunities, including festival slots, AOL promotion etc. go to high-ranking artists. And also the industry is starting to use us as a litmus test and evaluation tool. Check out some of our recent artist success stories: http://www.ourstage.com/go/artistsuccessstories

The choice is ours. Its up to us to embrace the platform and support it through its various evolutions and make OurStage a viable destination for advancing careers of emerging musicians. So yes, try to win your channel. But try to encourage your fans to be honest about ranking other artists as well. And yes, some will not. And yes, we will always look to improve upon what we do. But look at the positive too. Its free. Its making a difference in people's lives. You can get feedback on your songs (win or not). Its another way to network. Its another outlet to share your passion. And mine. Hey, a wise man once said: "We're all in this together".

On to the finals.

-Daniel

You make some good points Brian (as you so often do). I'm still not interested in campaigning for votes, but the bottom line is that my song "Please Emmalene" has had over a thousand listens so far. That's a thousand more than it would have had, had I not taken the few minutes to upload it; I have to be happy with that.

You're also right about them being responsive to feedback and suggestions--Danny certainly seems to be on the ball in that respect. One suggestion I might have is that maybe news updates concerning the voting (who made the next round in all of the categories etc) might be more prominently displayed on the home page. This may be a Luddite-like oversight on my part, but when I visit, I never know who actually made the next round. I do see the blurb announcing that the Finals voting ends tonight, but I don't see an announcement about who made it there. It's all a little vague to me. Like I said, this might just be that I haven't investigated enough to become comfortable with the workings of the site. I'll have to study more.

I'll leave the last word to you Brian...

" Let's all work together to help them get it all right because if they succeed, we all win. "

Cheers to that!
All the best then,
Steve R.

http://www.steverobinsonmusic.com/

Great suggestion on promoting a link to the music finals on the homepage. We'll look into that. Also, I really like this quote from an OurStage artist that makes the points I made above even more succinctly.

"We do not upload our songs to this or any other independant music site to compete for prizes, rather we upload our music with the hope that it will be heard and perhaps gain some fans. Well, during April our song received nearly 3,000 plays and was favorited 32 times!!! That is more plays than all of our uploaded songs combined since we started uploading to OurStage nearly a year ago! NOW THAT'S EXCITING!!"

So, in regard to someone posting guidelines for gaming the system, is Ourstage taking any action on that, or simply letting it go?

Yeah and what about changing the voting system to disepense with "same" is this ever going to be implemented?

Our T&C's cover this I believe. Users of OurStage have agreed to refrain from the following behavior, else risk at our sole discretion, the deactivation, suspension, or termination of our services:

"Interference: Interfere or attempt to interfere with the proper working of the OurStage site, communication between users on the site, or any other activities conducted on the site, including the ranking of entries while judging."

Individuals of course have the free will to vote as they so choose. And they did so in our April contest as in the previous contests. Again, we offer the most fair, free, fan-driven, realtime ranking system on the Web. As with any system, it will continue to evolve to meet the needs of our member community.

Its a interesting suggestion. The converse of that is even more volatility in the rankings for those judging with a specific agenda. That said, we do, and will continue to, evaluate ways to enhance our services and improve the user experience whenever possible.

Looks like they are letting it go
but the truth, we'll never know
I guess privacy laws and lawsuits
will stop us from learning
if someone got the boot

As for me, it doesn't really matter
my songs don't make anyone's heart go pitter-patter
I guess I just take the advice I heard
and be happy when my songs
make it consistently to the top third

Kevin

Danny, are you saying that item #4 above is not "Interference with the proper working of the Ourstage site"?

Folks, there are a lot of things a company can/cannot say, or will/will not do in a public way. Anything posted as a comment or declaration on this web page can and will be used against them in litigation, if that were ever to arise.

Remember Brian saying a little something without really saying it? Something about karma?

How about we take the longer view and see what happens? I wouldn't expect them to jump like a cat on anything we point to.

Maybe so Mark but there are unanswered questions and they may risk losing membership and angering the ones who play by the rules. Let's see what happens next month. Ben

If I'm not mistaken, Brian Bergeron didn't make it into the finals, so what does it matter? In my time at OurStage I have seen two instances of deliberate cheating/gaming. In both cases, OS took action - whether it was an automatic system detection or something manual, I'm not sure, but in any case the songs that were benefiting from these activities did not get far.

Hey Daniel, did you see this post I made before? I think this would be something that could be easily put in place, and really beneficial - especially to the finalists!

Hey folks,

The question could not come at a better time.
Currently, my song 'Stumble & Fall' won 1st (April) in Americana last night and has been in the top ten all day! I don't know what will happen with the 2 and a half hours left, but I can only hope that some real nice folks might pitch in here and there to get my song to the top. Thanks JPF for everything you do!
Dan

Hey Dan,

Wow! Didn't realize you were a member of the boards here. I guess I didn't put 2 and 2 together. I really liked your song - best of luck to you. I've been voting positively for it.

Dan, your song was a rollercoaster ride this month, wasn't it? I was really happy to see it prevail, and it deserves to be right up there. Good luck! -Mark

Yes. And we're working on something like that. We done so much its taking some time to compile.:)