JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum The Music Industry SKY Is Falling!!

Because so many here believe it:

"The music business is in crisis. At a click, anyone can listen to music whenever they like, for free. Why would anyone ever spend money on music again? Sounds like 2010 or even today, doesn’t it? Only it’s not, it’s 1925, the year network radio swept across the US with live broadcasts from big city ballrooms that could be heard from Seattle to Miami."

Read the article linked below:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...d-industry-crisis-blues-country-pioneers

Hey Jody!

Same thing happened in the Film Industry in the late 1940's, early 50's. The event of TV hurt ticket sales for the Big Screen. That and McCarthyism and the HUAC. Of course today we know there's room for both TV and the Big Screen. Don't think the Music Industry will ever recover from the loss of hard copies.Technology always makes changes. I reckon we have to change with it.

Best, John

Hi Jody:

No arguments here. I read a conflicting report about streaming which was disseminated from ASCAP today in their E-Zine. It indicated almost the exact opposite viewpoint from their article the other day. I wonder about how much real editing goes on there? This report had charts out the kazoo but they were not in printable format. My time for analysis is limited but it may reinforce your point from the other day regarding streaming.

I still prefer hard copy when it comes to music, don't trust Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, Sony and most of the others... and the CD (because of it's small size and storage space) fills that bill for me. I also use Memory Sticks but don't yet know how much shelf life they will have. (Probably more than CD's but cataloging becomes a bit of an issue.)

All the best, ----Dave

Well,
Just recently I got a Music Catalog in the Mail. Among the Offerings was a Lawrence Welk CD that had the Hit Calcutta on it. So I asked my wife to pick out some CD's as well as the Welk CD. Wouldn't you know it they had every CD we ordered but the Welk CD! I also want the Hard Copy. So I will look for the Welk CD in a later Catalog.

From a long time ago I heard a song by a Pop Rock Artist: I SAID OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN THIS DANCE IS GOING TO BE A DRAG. Didn't know who put it out so I Googled it and found the Artist I heard. I think the Artist is Bobby Day, now deceased. So there is another song I want to get if I can find it. No CD's ain't dead by a long shot and they are making some Vinyl LP's again. So don't give up your Confederate money, the South is going to rise again! I still have my old AR Turntable and you can buy Turntables Brand New. Who knows how many Vinyl Records are still out there! Write a Hit!
Geronimo.

I heard that cassettes are making a bit of a comeback with bands that play live, mainly because of their compact size, easier to slip a few in your pocket to sell off stage, CDs too bulky.

At this point TV generally has better content and streaming services like Netflix and Amazon Prime are starting to create content that is now blowing TV out of the water. Why? They're letting creators do what they do best - create. Movies are in need of a renaissance. Technology has changed how that content get delivered and consumed. Netflix is the smartest with the releasing of entire seasons at once.


No format is technically dead because there's always someone willing to collect any particular format. No one actually stopped making vinyl, and the "comeback" its experiencing isn't really a true comeback, it will remain niche - especially at roughly 1% of the entire music market.


Essentially it sounds like you'll be one of those who will keep the CD format "alive" as it continues its downward spiral.

Some new cars (I think Fords) no longer have CD players available. And of course, cassette players have been gone for twenty years. You can still plug in your iPod or phone and play music but soon it will only be done via Bluetooth and ultimately only streaming services. My truck is equipped for Sirius satellite radio and Sirius continually gives me free months of listening in the hope that I will eventually pay them for it.

i rarely buy cd's anymore but i'm always buying albums [second hand].There are lots of folks in my parts who collect used albums so you got to get out there early at those yard sales and flea markets if you want first pickin's.And you'd be surprised how many of them are in great shape,the covers may be a bit roached at times but the vinyl is very good are above in condition.And there actually people who still collect 8-Tracks,i've visited online groups and these guys are serious about their 8-Tracks.You have to watch the reissue albums as some are mastered from the original analog recordings while some are mastered from a cd [sucks].But yeah anyway,everybody has their likes and dislikes of music formats,so none is right or wrong i guess,it's all what your ears think about it.But if you haven't experienced some of that vintage stereo equipment,do yourself a favor and find someone with a nice setup,kick back and listen to how music was meant to be heard.

Well,
I think car companies are no longer putting CD Players in the new cars. Our 2006 Honda CRV still had a cassette Player in it as well as a 6 CD Player. Gave the 2006 Honda CRV to our number 2 grandson as he needed transportation. It was in perfect shape mechanically after 10 years and almost 100,000 miles. Last year we bought a new Honda CRV. It has a CD Player.

I have some Commercial Cassette tapes that have printed thru so I would stay away from new cassette offerings.

You can always sell vinyl to hipsters, especially if you are not "mainstream"

It's the best of times and the worst of times.
For many who have been in the business for a long time, it is the END of an era. And yes, that sky is falling. The practices and principals that guided the industry have changed and are not going back. So yeah, in some ways it is the worst of times.

For others, adjusting to the new dynamic of the "mostly free" era, it is the best of times. Their expectations are lower because they don't have a frame of reference. Venues that pay nothing are the norm for them. Earning nothing for music is what they have grown up with. Lower levels of talent and abilities are what they have always been surrounded with. They can get what they do out there in endless pathways. The Internet is their playground and for them it is the best of times. GEtting anyone to actually LISTEN to what they do, much less pay for it.....well.....

Some people adjust to the new dynamic well and make the best of it. Some don't. There will always be winners and losers. You have to decide which one you will be, mostly chart your own pathway and work within the parameters in front of you.
It's a do it yourself world.

Best of times, worst of times. Sky might not be falling, but there are a lot of clouds out there. And a bit of sunshine as well.

MAB

Aw, Yes,
There are a lot of people out there trying to take a shortcut to success. Over on another board I have been trying to get my book made into a movie. After looking at all the posts looking for a script or screenplay most of them want you do do all the hard work and submit a screenplay. Probably anyone that buys the move rights to a book will have their own writers do the screenplay. Yes, there are a lot of "Bottom Feeders" looking for shortcuts to success! Me too.

Hey Ray,

I'm going in the same direction with my brother's novel. I've read a lot of books about screen plays. And yes, often there are many hands in writing a screen play. And then the chances of a novel turning into a movie have to do with how easy it is to adapt to a shorter version for film. But I do think the easiest route in getting a movie opportunity is through the novel route.

Wondering if you made hard copies of your novel Ray? And what book printer you used. Seems 1,000 soft covered 8.5 by 5.5 300 page books are printed for $5 a copy (though I saw one for $3). So 1,000 copies would be $5K. I think an actually printed book would stand a better chance of being read. Probably find a good list of prospective producers & directors on the IMDb website to send a copy to.

Most of the major book publishers have promotion packages ($2k-5k cost range). I'm getting info on that as well.

Yes, I'm surprised there are so many novel writing wanabees out there. Almost as much competition as the music industry.

Best, John

Uh, Nope John,
I sent a printed computer copy to a couple of Wanna Be Pay for Play Publisher's. One wanted 4200 dollars and the other one wanted just a bit less. In my searches I saw the Book Publishers wanted a bound copy and said you could get it done at UPS or Staples. So I went looking and found Presentation Books on the Net you could buy. Since my work is only 35 Computer pages I bought some Presentation Books Staples Number 21614 or 21618. These have 24 individual sleeves enough for my work. I have offered to send a copy to them if they ask for it but so far no one has. As our friend used to say, I don't pay them, they pay me! I wrote the book. I didn't have any shortcuts. Hey good luck.

"As our friend used to say, I don't pay them, they pay me! I wrote the book" - Ray

I agree to a certain degree. But in today's real world, the writer (or agent of- me) is expected to do his own initial promotion. At least until one gets a buzz going. Most of the top book publishers won't consider newcomers (like major record companies). But they all have promotional services, i.e., placing your book in one of their stores if they like it (like BAM). They also do advertising for your book (both Internet, and in store). Of course, I'd try to get a local BAM to display the book - and do a lot of local advertising. The writer is responsible for the first 1,000 books. If they sell, stores like BAM will take over with new printing costs and added promotion. Sounds like a pretty good deal. I'm figuring $5K to 7K investment. Should recoup at least part of that back in sales. Anyway, I’ll let you know how we make out. Project is still a couple months away.

Good luck with your book Ray!

Best, John

Ah,

Starting to see some patterns here? I don't know if you guys have been paying attention in what's happening in all the entertainment industry but two weeks ago in LA all the screen and script writers were talking about going on strike due to their revenues declining, due to Internet, pod casts, and productions filling the airwaves. Basically all formats are experiencing the same things. As more and more people get into these arenas, there are going to be less and less money paid out or even having to "pay to be involved." All of the former ways of doing business are being rendered no longer relevant.

Started seeing this years ago as more and more reality television put writers, grips, sound people, etc. out of business. Then as the Internet, Hulu, and other avenues, endless cable channels, more and more content is used but being paid less and less for it. So it is in every aspect of content creation. It is why you see so many "special rates" being used in cable packaging.

The numbers of those 30-50 million writers and artists also applies to authors, poets, people who do magazine articles, photographers, etc. you name it. AS more and more people can get it for free or reduced rates, and more and more content out there, there is less and less paid for it. Supply and demand. Never fails.

If you are interested in having books published, you will probably do self publishing or one of these promotion companies, which you will pay for. The "They pay me, I don't pay them" is a long dead approach. Not even relevant anymore.

If you have a book to movie or scrip idea, you might want to look locally, to colleges or tech schools with television or motion picture courses, to see if students might be interested in a project. Resetting sights to Internet or subscriber based avenues are the coming thing. More like UBER, LYFT, AIR B&B we are all making it up as we go along.

So in all forms of content creation, the laws of supply and demand apply. And you have to also keep in mind the END LINE CONSUMER. They pay less for everything now. And anything on the Internet will be made free. So the same things will be happening in all forms.

MAB

Um, Dick Tracy,
Things are going to pieces? What gave you your first clue? Was just listening to Barry Manilow. He was a guest at the Stock Exchange. He said the last 8 years has been a bust! I ain't holdin' me breath waitin' to get rich. The Govment floated the idea of sending the states 8 Billion to pay for medicaid. A State Governor said that ain't anyway's near enough.
So I wanted to say to the Gov, what gave you your first clue? With a nearly 20 Trillion Dollar Federal Debt, when has there ever been enough money!

Though... with all the "sky is falling" talk, movies are still being released plentifully. Every week several new movies show up at our Cinemax Theater. And there's a considerable amount of independent film opportunities. So yeah, the situation could be better, but far from being a dead-end. One thought… If one doesn’t think his/her product is good enough to partly “self” invest in, then how could anyone think a complete stranger would take that risk? I think it’s up to the artist or writer to get the initial buzz going. Then when an investor wants in – sock it to ‘em.

John

I noticed that most of the new films start out as novels. Definitely the best route to the Big Screen. I was originally told to make a "Beat Sheet" (an elaborate 10-12 page synopsis of the screen play). After further checking, I found nobody reads/wants Beat Sheets any longer.

John

The most recent statements just came out from BMI and ASCAP. Almost every hit writer I know has taken to Facebook to complain about what is happening. The biggest are people like Tom Douglas and Alan Shamblin, who wrote "HOUSE THAT BUILT ME", a huge break through hit from Miranda Lambert. They received 20 million streams from Spotify and Pandora and their checks were less than $1000 each. So, no, the sky is NOT fallen. There is pretty much not a sky anymore.
But it does make everyone EQUAL. EQUALLY BROKE!!! LOL!

John, the actual point is that there is MORE MORE AND MORE PRODUCT OUT THERE. Every minute of every day, someone is releasing a video or song on YOU TUBE, FACEBOOK. Those are the primary movers and shakers of public thought. The same is happening with Videos, movies, books, novels, you name it. It is also the reason you see more and more FUNDRAISING, CROWDSOURCING, GO FUND ME, etc. out there. People are HAVING to raise the money themselves.

Some people use this to their advantage. Without input or interference from record companies, publishers, etc. there are less strings, and people are able to implement more of THEIR personal visions into their product. They are able to release it directly to their consumers. They are able to be who they are, put it into the marketplace and see where it takes them. There are multiple artists that are doing this. Again these are almost ALL self contained artists, so the days of the "outside songwriter"are pretty much done. Those are basically struggling in the LE Brea tar pits of the music industry.

But those that can devise their own strategies, be they independent film makers, screen writers, authors, etc. the new world is ALL DO IT YOUR SELF. Until you can find someone else to TAKE OVER THE JOB.

MAB

Aw, Well,
My daughter and friend are doing Karaoke here on a somewhat regular basis so the sky may be still there. I hear there are a few or more people also participating. No doubt it still takes some work to be successful and people are still very much involved.

"John, the actual point is that there is MORE MORE AND MORE PRODUCT OUT THERE." -MAB

Hey Marc,

Then may be good to keep our products slightly (or totally) titled from the mainstream audience. I usually seek the least competitive route. I'd never try to promote a "pop" song. That's just plain suicide.

Best, John

Everybody has to make their own decision regarding their creative content, be it books, music, painting, what have you.
Music is mostly theraputic and about self discovery. Once you try to take it into the marketplace, you have to be aware of what the market place you are going for IS. Even if YOUR marketplace is to be the best in your hometown, that is still a markeplace.

As far as "keeping it mainstream" that would be advisable if you are trying to hit a large target. You also have to realize that the larger the market the more people attempting to get into that market and the more rules and guidelines are needed to leap over. And yes, Ray, it takes a LOT of people to move things from an idea to fruition and in this day and age, it is hard to even figure out what FRUITION is.

As I say over and over, I have a LOT of friends in places we'd all like to be, hit songs, hit artists, big success in all of our eyes. But what seems like someone would "have it made" is not always the reality. All we can do is educate ourselves as much as we can, be as realistic as we can, and still be out there on the front lines trying to pitch and promote what we do.

Good luck to all of you. Thanks Jodi for starting the thread. I'm neither an optimist or a pessimist. I think there's a lot of both.
I'm primarily a REALIST. I don't live in the "LAND OF WHAT IF'S." I live in the "LAND OF WHAT IS."

That's where I'll always come from. Best of luck to all of you. Happy Memorial day. If you have a veteran in your life, make sure you thank them.

MAB

Thinking out-of-the-box is a proportional advantage. If 5 million pop writers are going after a fan base of 100,000,000, it would be better for 5,000 out-of-the-box writers going after a fan base of 50,000. The off-mainstream route may end up more profitable. The chances of success will improve proportionately in a smaller market. Thinking small, could end up big.

And thinking like that is why Sandra thinks I'm a weirdo.

John

Wasn't the Wizard Of Oz self published, originally? It can be done.

The Wizard was published by George M. Hill Company. Though even if it was self-published, it was a different ball game back then. Publishers were more willing to consider unknowns for publishing deals. Now unless you're interested in their promo packages, they won't review your work.

John

Um, Yes,
There are a ton of Self/Paid Publisher's that will publish your book for a price. I have had two of them accept my book but I ain't paying anyone to publish my book. All the people, that I've seen so far want short stuff, for movies that is, that doesn't cost them much to produce it. I will keep looking.

In "days of yore" you didn't have millions of people sitting around writing songs, books, novels, poems, paintings, etc. And ways to put them out there. Most people didn't even read in the 1800's into the 1900's. Most were much more interested in staying alive. Farming, factories, doing things the kept them alive.

So it's kind of a moot point about "self publishing." In this era where "everybody can do it." You are self published until you can get someone to take over the job for you.

MAB

OK,

I've held off as long as I could re: books as a short-cut to movies to songs...

REALITY CHECK--Cold bucket of water:

Ain't gonna happen!

Google "Mother's Milk" by Andrew Breslin.

Bottom line?

It takes 3 years from first draft to a printable book from a legit publisher...
...3 years...With notes about continuity, editing typos and all kinds of other stuff.

At any given time, there are at least, 210,130.00 novelists trying to get their first book published every year....

At any given time, there are over 3 million songwriters grasping for the Brass Ring!


Bottom line?

Time to reign the dreams in a tad and see what you can actually DO now, with the world as we know it....

I've been wrong before, but suspect that I'm not wrong now...

Midnite

These are a few recent novels that have been made into movies (2016-2017). If these writers can do it, so can we. By the way, I've read several of these novels and wasn't impressed.

The Girl On the Train
Before I Fall
Everything, Everything
On Chesil Beach
Wonder
The Circle
Break My Heart 1,000 Times
The Dinner
My Cousin Rachel
The Dark Tower
Valerian
Red Sparrow
A Century of November
Lunden’s Bridge
The Long Home
Splinter Cell
An Ember of Ashes
Infinity
The Bread Winner
Annihilation
Fifty Shades Darker
Hidden Figures
Before I Fall
The Zookeeper’s Wife
The City of Z
My Cousin Rachel
The Coldest City
The Dark Tower
It
Victoria and Abdul
The Mountain Between Us
Murder On the Orient Express
Thank You For Your Service
The Monster Calls
The Bronx Bull
Live By Night
A Dog’s Purpose
Same Kind of Different Me

"The Melancholy Cafe" coming in 2017!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWdMq1lZ7fE

I beg to difffer, JLS...when you say "A few recent novels"....At least 6 of them were first published over 20 years ago. Several were published nearly 10 years ago. Each and every one on this list took at least 3 years between the first draft and being published.

And even when the film gets made, is anyone foolish enough to think that they might be able to slip in a song on a film that is made from a book that they got published into the finished product of screen?

I'll stand by my initial thought....

Please, All, don't think that writing a book that you hope can be turned into a movie and then have one of your songs in is anything near what reality dictates!

Ain't gonna happen....

That being said, how's about we focus on what CAN happen....???

I'm thinking along the lines of the hard and consistent work that you've done getting your music into various outlets, "Libraries?" for others to find, and then following up and keeping track?

You're the Pro when it comes to musical placements....

I'm just the neophyte scribe of 7 plays, 3 produced..way off-Broadway, 8 screenplays written, 3 produced, way off-Hollywood....2 novels that I tried and failed to get published.....Total cash value? $50.....But I once wrote a song, 12 lines, that is still being sung by others...No cash value there either, but it is still being sung, and that's enough for my satisfaction...

Maybe it's time for a new thread, something along the lines of.....???

Midnite

I didn't research all the novels on this short list, but all these were supposed to be made into movies 2016 - 2017. And some of the novels are very recent. The Girl On the Train, Before I Fall, Everything, Everything just showed-up as new arrivals this year at our BAM store. Though I do agree to focus on what can happen Bob. And the sky's the limit! Any lower expectation is just self-defeating.

John

Hi Gang:

I had to go back to the top of this thread to be certain Jody had caused all this consternation. LOL! To his point, I received another E-Zine from ASCAP with an article proclaiming "The CD is Alive and Well!" (Sorry, I don't keep them so I can't repeat the exact title... but this is "close enough" for our purposes.) What to believe, these days??? One thing is certain... the Russians had nothing to do with the way I voted in the last Presidential election. It was only a choice between what appeared to be the lesser threat of two really bad candidates.

I'm so sick and tired of all these phony narratives coming out of NYC and DC... from the media, eager to grasp any story that might stir the pot and assure failure for our country. What I'd give to have Edward R. Murrow sitting in front of a desk with a microphone, reading from a list of news... real news... from all around the nation... and from all around the world. No opinions... just items for us to consider and decide for ourselves. We are probably the most mis-informed Nation on earth.

As the tone and nature of the thread began to change... it's obvious that many of you believe nobody has a chance of success whether it happens to be a song, a novel or a short story. I don't recall anybody mentioning works of art... but maybe that too. Fool that I am, I am glad there are additional fools willing to put forth the effort to at least try. What if Harper Lee was afraid to attempt to get "To Kill a Mockingbird" published?

Since it's Memorial Day... I'd like to express my gratitude to all our Military People who "gave their all" so we can enjoy life, write that novel... and vote for the candidate of our choosing.

My regards to each of you,

----Dave

Aw, Well, Humm, Maybe,
Maybe the Russians did affect my vote. I voted for Trump! Was going to anyway. But I am getting so disgusted with all the "Losers" doing everything to bring Trump down I need to write another letter to the Newspaper. Are all those Liberal's really that stupid or just need another snippet of a story to keep their job!

"As the tone and nature of the thread began to change... it's obvious that many of you believe nobody has a chance of success whether it happens to be a song, a novel or a short story. I don't recall anybody mentioning works of art... but maybe that too. Fool that I am, I am glad there are additional fools willing to put forth the effort to at least try. What if Harper Lee was afraid to attempt to get "To Kill a Mockingbird" published?"

Dave, that's not nesassarily true, at least not from my perspective. But it might mean that people have to REDEFINE their definition of SUCCESS. There are still going to be people who do well. Just like any market. When the stock market goes to hell, and everything seems wiped out, there are still people who clean up when the rest panic. But as far as songs and art, anything that is subjective, it is always going to be upon AUDIENCE MARKETPLACE and SALES that determine a financial success.

There are many who "carve out their own niche" and might do quite well for themselves in many of these prescribed methods.
With songs getting literally hundreds of millions of streams and downloads and making in the literal thousand dollar range as well as shifting the goal posts for what "qualifies" as a "hit", is what will probably have to change.

Just like people's concept of what makes a "career" in any field may have to change. Now, most people change jobs multiple times over the course of their lives, as opposed as people in our day and before us, that got one job and stayed with it for life.

And again, and I will say this OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, THAT THIS IS NOTHING NEW!!
I have a ton of friends who have had huge hits, songs that have been on legendary charts over the decades, from the 50s on that have not made ANYWHERE what people THINK they have made over the years. How about all the people from those long ago eras that STILL have to sue to get paid royalties they are owed from decades ago? Getting paid is always a pain.
The current state of the industry is just the latest configuration of an always near impossible endevor.

Does that make you or anyone else quit? Of course not. You still do what you do, take your shot and hope you are the one with the winning lottery ticket. And if you don't win, there is a lot to be said for the adventure itself.

John's observation about "getting 5000 people interested in a career" is exactly what Brian has been talking about all these years.

Niche Marketing. That is what we are all in. You just have to find your niche and do your best to exploit that niche commercially/

MAB

Very nicely said Marc. Thanks!

Marvin

Thanks Marvin,

Most of all of this is just common sense. And understanding why we got here in the first place.

For a lot of us in Nashville, we saw it coming in the late 90's, when we were involved in conferences, and meetings with major players, publishers, industry people who were sort of "reading the tea leaves." We were actually told by some of the tech people, "WRITERS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GET USED TO DOING WITHOUT ROYALTIES BECAUSE THEY ARE NO LONGER GOING TO BE THERE."
When major writers asked "How will a writer make a living?"
They were told, "YOU WON'T."

So publishers and established hit writers started developing their own acts around their songs, and efforts.
Artist branding took over as the way to make money and stay relevant.
Writers were involved in every aspect of their careers, including the writing.
Labels went to distribution.
Social networking became key.
Outside writers were completely cut out of the process and left to create their own niches.

So all of this is something we have known about for decades. Now it is the rest of the world figuring out how to deal with it.

And it has happened to Hollywood, as their first run movies have gotten streamed ahead of release, television shows, books, magazines, etc. have all had to shift the way it does business. Writers have to adapt or die. (I always liked that phrase)

And there are winners and losers, with most people simply doing it for the love of it. If you are a creative person, and want to find a way to monetize what you are doing, you are going to have to look for alternative ways, find a new dynamic, and be as creative in your promotion as you are in creating your product. You no longer can "just create something and expect someone else to come to your rescue and take you to the next levels. You have to get farther along before that happens.

If you want to be a successful artist, you are going to have to have a HUGE FAN BASE BEFORE labels look at you.
If you want to be a successful writer, you have to find ARTISTS who are motivated with a huge fan base.
You have to build your OWN BRAND.

The business doesn't end, it doesn't fail, it doesn't quit.
It ADAPTS. SUPPLY AND DEMAND.

Will never change.

MAB

This is the most mixed up thread I have ever come across - state of the music industry, vanity publishers, real publishers, screenplays, even a plug for Trump - something for everybody here!

Somebody mentioned the cost to print books. I self-published two moderately successful novels a few years ago. The price for a paperback, just under 300 pages, offset printed in a quantity of 3000 was $1.53 each. A digitally printed short run (500 copies) was $2.82. There are plenty of options for printing and publishing without going to one of the rip-off "subsidy publishers." If you want to go this route (and in today's climate, it is probably the only route) do it yourself, save some money and give yourself a better chance of getting reviews - reviewers recognize the vanity publishers by name and won't review books published by them.

Hi Gavin! Yeah, this thread took some interesting turns. Wondering where you had you books printed (and the quality). Yes, this is the "do it yourself" age we're living in.

Best, John

Hi John. I used a company called United Graphics for the offset. It was professional quality. For the digital printing I used Spencer Printing. Lightning and CreateSpace (Amazon) are (or were) also popular for digital.
A useful service is printindustry.com. You can describe your project and printers will come to you with quotes.

Vista Print is also a great option. They do everything at very reasonable rates and pretty much every configuration there is.

Here is what I did once to combine both of them.

About 20 years ago I went through my "LES MIZ" phase. I got enraptured by that play, did some of the songs live, one which got me an amazing co-write with one of the most successful writers in Nashville, who was a Les Miz freak too, (never know what is going to turn someone on!) and I even ended up going to Broadway, seeing the play and going back stage to meet a guy I had met online who was playing the part of Thernardier', He took me around, showed me the sets, costumes, etc. Great guy.

I got really caught up in that, and ended up combining a bunch of songs I had written and recorded into a concept CD. It was called THE NEXT BIG THING, and basically was my story of life, combined with my Dad, and various people I had worked with over the years. The songs all sequed one into the other, and was pretty fun. I did it live a few times with my band and got pretty good results. About the same time at one of my gigs a guy approached me who was a printer. He liked my music and wanted to do something for me .

Over the next year or so, he did brochures, my book, "FRESHMAN YEAR IN NASHVILLE" and then really got into the whole concept of the "NEXT BIG THING." I got a ton of pictures and wrote out the story, using the pictures to illustrate these two characters, BOBBY AND BILLY, who were 85, living in a retirement home and decide to escape to make a final road trip to Las Vegas. He did all the stuff for free, and I would do special shows for him and his family, his daughter's graduation party, etc. Was a really cool relationship.

Unfortunately, he contracted Cancer and passed away. and I had a burst water pipe destroy a lot of the booklets that went with the CD while I Was on the road. So never got to fully promote it the way I wanted to.

But it was a way to combine things I found interesting. My music, telling a story, doing a CD in a different way. Was a lot of fun and still very proud of it. Just started playing some of the songs from it recently.

So there are ways to do any of this. Finding a printer you like, working out some kind of relationship where you do something for them, and vice versa, is another way to get something you want done, done. The barter system is in full swing these days.

Maybe you can find your own pathway.

MAB

Thanks Gavin! I'll check them out.

I've checked with a couple printers for 1,000 copies of a 8.5" by 5" softbound 300 page (80,000 word) book (only color on the cover) - I was quoted $5 a copy. Seemed a little steep to me.

John

Good luck, John:

Nice to have an "author" with Gavin's experience among us. Some great suggestions about available resources.

Thanks all,

----Dave

MAB,

That's a nice story about your experiences with Les Miz and the inspiration you took from it.

Vista is probably good for booklets/leaflets. When it comes to actual books, it's best to go with a specialist book printer. It's been a while since I was doing this, so the landscape has probably changed quite a lot, but a request for quote at printindustry.com should probably bring the current players out of the woodwork.

I learned so much self-publishing my first novel that I wrote a book about self-publishing fiction. I wouldn't recommend anyone buy it now because it is completely out of date, but it was useful in its day. It's not difficult to do everything yourself - layout, printing, etc. As with most things, the trickiest part is marketing - not just promotion, but getting effective distribution. The book industry is very complicated and very inefficient.

The one thing I can say with confidence is that it never makes sense to go with a vanity press or "publishing service."

Oh, and one other thing. It is not difficult to make a small fortune in publishing. The secret is to start out with a large one.

Gavin, (Nice to see the picture by the way)

BOOM!!! you hit a really big deal right there.

"I learned so much self-publishing my first novel that I wrote a book about self-publishing fiction. I wouldn't recommend anyone buy it now because it is completely out of date, but it was useful in its day. It's not difficult to do everything yourself - layout, printing, etc. As with most things, the trickiest part is marketing - not just promotion, but getting effective distribution. The book industry is very complicated and very inefficient."

This is the REAL DEAL with everything. Every songwriter I have ever known, "is writing a book." Everybody seems to have a book. Hell, I HAVE A BOOK! "FRESHMAN YEAR IN NASHVILLE." The reality is getting people with eight second attention spans to actually PURCHASE something that takes hours or days or weeks or MONTHS to finish. Books have been declining in sales for years. Sure there are the huge hit writers, Crighton, King, etc. that are selling fine, but most people are no where near that, or as good. And yes, we are still RELEASING A TON OF MUSIC. getting someone to PAY FOR IT, is another thing altogether.

Too many people are so consumed by WRITING A BOOK, PUBLISHING A BOOK, PRINTING A BOOK, they never really take the time to find out if PEOPLE WANT THEIR BOOK. And this is the deal, be it art, music, literature. It is the END LINE CONSUMER that makes the decisions. Getting something written, recorded, printed, is about 10-15% of it. The rest is promotion, marketing, and FINDING YOUR AUDIENCE. And that can be a REALLY tricky proposition.

More and more books are now going to DIGITAL and AUDIO. There is a new phone App called AUDIBLE, which are thousands of books being read so you can listen on your phone. Steven King has even started doing "serialized" versions of his book, a chapter at a time. This is the future. So it might be a moot point about getting something PRINTED.

Again, always goes back to the same thing. Supply and demand. If you have a creative work, you are going to have to find someone who is INTERESTED IN PURCHASING that creative work FIRST. Same with music. Find an audience or create one. Really the only way to do it.

MAB

Yes digital is important, although interestingly this year it actually declined as a percentage of the market relative to printed books. It's also not that difficult to create an e-book for Kindle and other platforms. Selling it is a different matter of course, as you say.

With writing, as with music, my feeling is that you should do it because you love it, or at least enjoy it or because you just want to at least try to create something really good. I know people who make a living from writing, but to do so they spend their time writing things they don't enjoy writing or feel proud of. Might as well sell insurance as do that. In both cases, if you want to write something you really care about, you'll have to do it in your spare time.

I'm not minimizing the ego boost aspect of it. I enjoyed the book signings, the good reviews. When my book unexpectedly became an Amazon bestseller, I sat by my computer printing out screenshots, determined to capture its highest position. I am as vain as anyone. I got calls from Hollywood, and would mention them in conversation for months afterwards. See, I just did it again! But at the end of the day, it's just an adventure and that's enough reason to do it. That and creating a work that says something about who you are.

I'd agree with that 1000%.

Um, Well,
I haven't written a song since 2009. You can go to the Web Site, listed as NEW WEB SITE on the Industry board. As for my current, and only book so far, a couple of Pay for Play "Publisher's want to publish it but I ain't paying anyone to publish it. A lot of movie people that are looking have Web Sites where you can post on their board telling them what you have, etc. So I have been telling them what I have and if they want to see it they can send an E-Mail if they want a copy. A lot of them want a Polished Screen Play ready to go. I don't have it written as a screen play, they can have the pleasure of doing that if they like the story. I am now, but not too hard, working on a new story of which isn't finished and may never be finished!

I need to find a few people to send some songs to. Maybe some of those Hot Shot Artists will check them out. Write a Hit!

"A lot of them want a Polished Screen Play ready to go. I don't have it written as a screen play, they can have the pleasure of doing that if they like the story" - Ray

Hmm... I've read a couple dozen books related to directors, actors, screenplays, etc. Everyone of then used their own writers to adapt a novel to a screenplay. Many instances the directors/ producers used multiple writers. In essence, seems like a waste of time polishing a screenplay, when chances are it won't fly anyway.

"Oh, and one other thing. It is not difficult to make a small fortune in publishing. The secret is to start out with a large one"- Gavin

In other words, you're saying it takes a fortune to make a fortune. Maybe I'm reading that wrong Gavin.

John