People are so use to having music at their finger tip that they take it for granted and that cheapens it. Almost like the saying, you never miss the water till the well runs dry, well I'd like to see a period of time, maybe a month, when music was banned. No person or industry was allowed to play music for any reason for this period, just to draw the worlds attention to how important music is.

Just imagine a church service with no music, movies and TV and radio with no music, no music in advertisements, no music to lull babies to sleep. How many ways does music be used in the run of a day to get our attention, to get us to buy something, to raise money for charity, to get us into a club, etc. Still people take it for granted, like the air they breathe, they think it should be free to be used as they see fit. As we know, producing good music takes talent, skill, work and money. If music is good enough to steal, then someone should be willing to pay a fair price for it. What is a fair price? Who knows, people pay one price for a newspaper or magazine which is soon in the garbage, they pay another price for a book which they read once and file away in a bookcase. People pay a price for a video of a movie which they may watch a few times. Based on those items, a CD, which may get listened to hundreds of times, is the bargain of the century, yet million don't want to pay $15.00 or $20.00 for something that can entertain them for a lifetime. I rest my case.

Everett: I think there was $10 billion in revenue from just music sales last year ( http://www.internetretailer.com/int...it-534-billion-2012-study-forecasts.html ), so obviously someone is paying for music. This doesn't all include all the revenue from radio play, movies, TV, etc, etc.... and then revenue from concerts, festivals, bars and dives, ....

Your beginning premise seems wrong, but it is a fact that music is a commodity -- with so much supply, the cost stays low -- and free is pretty low.

Kevin

HiDee Bro Everett!

Take away Music & some LANGUAGES cease to exist...(I think Vietnamese & Thai "Primers" come with Musical Scales Attached..they're "Sung" Languages from the Get-Go.)

Historically, most Music WAS "Free"..until the Townsfolk tipped the Street Musicians..& the Kings Hired-Ya-On.

Enter the Music Publishing Biz..Mangers..Promoters..Big AD Budgets..Tours..& yep, FINALLY there's a way for Non-King-Supported Musical Careers to Happen.

Sadly, we can't ALL be Elvis.

&..if ya examine The Career of the Most-Successful "Musician" of all time..sales-wise..it still didn't turn out All That Wonderfully for him..personally.

HOWEVER..I'd wager MOST of those Billion Records he sold were $1 apiece. &..That's close to the Average Download Price, nowadaze.

So...I'll volunteer That Sum in answer to Your Very Valid Question.

Now..the "Trick" in making a Career outta Music is to reduce your "loss leader" (free) Performances..in relation to your actually Selling Something.

Is your Music so POWERFUL folks "Gotta Have It"..so MOVING (Like Elvis Was) it makes Young Bystanders SCREAM with Delight...(& will actually BUY SOME)? Or is is Vanilla..White Bread..Bland..Boring..Negative..Off-Key..Amateurish..Less-Than-What's-ALREADY-Out-There?

I don't think MOST music "entertains for a lifetime". (How many of your teenhood Vinyl 45's have ya played lately? I rest my case.) Very FEW even Successful "3-Minute-Movies" get played Year-After-Year...Original HIT Music's got a Short Shelf-Life.
(I'll prove it..NAME the Top Dance Hit for 1989..WITHOUT Googling it up.) (I can't either.) But SOMEONE Made a Pile of Money from it...still does..thanks to Laws & Publishing & Promoting that's mostly been put-in-place the last 100 years.

Anyways..SOMEONE will STILL make the Million off the next batch of Serious HITS..(Just look at Kevin's Stats.) Sadly, NOWADAYS it's rarely the WRITERS and THE ARTIST who does. &..JMO..with so many "Layers" these days of Lawyers & PROS & Promoters that Wanna "Help Us"..it sure seems like maybe LESS of that Moneygrubbin' "Help" is needed.

Back to makin' my $1 Downloads..heh! (That $11 Check from CDBaby felt GOOD last week..just 999,989 MORE Downloads & I can Prove My Point there...heh!)

Big Guy-Hug,
Ol' Stan

<www.CDBaby.com/TampaStan>

Supply and demand. And what funds the market will provide.

In any business.

Everett,

In the 40's, there was a two year general music strike against the record companies. Once the record companies ran out of stockpiled songs, no new songs went out to radio except for vocals only cuts. When the strike ended, the sales of records in the U.S. doubled.

Only nowdays, the musicians won't organize, and most do not like the union, so it will never happen again.

Guys,

There is a piece of the equation you are all forgetting.
The "Everyone can do it" element.

Karaoke.
Home recording
Local and home grown musicians.
American Idol
Nashville Star
Song and talent contest.

When this started happening in the 90's,it became affordable, accessable, immideate. Now what is the rage?

Guitar hero
Rock Star

When everyone can do it, the unique nature ceases. How many of you would stop doing music and only buy other music?

I rest my case.

MAB

So, here's what I'm seeing: on the one hand there are a lot of people who download my music and never pay me a dime (bummer), but on the other hand, there's a growing number of rabid fans who pay me $30 (or more) for an album that isn't even out yet. Some of the latter came to me because one of the former handed my music to them... that's just killer!

I think the value is shifting from the music itself (back) to the musicians. People nowadays are eager to support bands or individuals that they truly care about (just look at the success of Jonathan Coulton, Scott Andrew and others) and less so about whatever is dished out by the record industry.

Obviously a great time to be a musician, not so much if you're just the writer. Of course, there is no reason why you can't be both (except the excuses you make to convince yourself you can't).

I don't think this is true. Karaoke, Guitar Hero and Songsmith all do two things. On the one hand, they make musicianship accessible and enjoyable for the layman, but on the other hand they help bring appreciation to the skill that goes into being a 'proper' musician to those same people. Someone who's beat Guitar Hero understand how difficult it is to pull off an amazing guitar solo, because (s)he knows how difficult it is to pull of the game version of it... etc.



Not me, not ever.

I agree with Jim. What happened to the music industry, the majors at least, is they fought the tidal wave of "internet culture" by clinging to a twenty dollar CD stubbornly, and now begrudgingly are playing catch up with changing consumer needs.

One could look at the internet as a new, hyperfast "grass roots folk movement" and get in the thick of it, become part of the flow of information, reach people around the world that was never possible before--TOUCH listeners with a "personalism" that was not possible except to those in front rows of live shows.

So do many high profile musicians...Radiohead...the Nine Inch Nails dude.... Here's an essay by Janis Ian who found the more music she gave away for free, the more her sales went up:

http://www.audioenz.co.nz/2005/janisian.shtml


...the idea goes back before the time of Christ, and is now part of the ideas in many cultures...Hopi "Gift Culture"... in cult books like "the Secret", that to have a "giving" nature" is what attracts others to "give" back...

In Acts, chapter 20, verse 35: It is more blessed to give than to receive.

IMO, most people that steal were never going to buy that piece of music anyway; it has to do with "character", and I don't think the Internet has turned many good people into bad, simply because the "candy box" was open...

--Mike

I guess. I am probably just wrong. There really isn't any loss of income in the music business. All those "out of business, for sale, for lease, signs are just people who decided to do something else.

The Nine Inch Nails guy was shocked when they had 2 million in downloads and was paid for 29 thousand. Yeah, no problem. Less development budgets for acts, artists rosters cut. Yeah, sorry, I just made it up.

MAB

Marc,

I didn't mean, nor anywhere did I say there was no loss of income in the record business, but that the internet is here, and it's not going to go away any time soon. The best strategy might be to use it for what it's good for, instead of trying to erect a "virtual police state" that file sharers would just find a way around anyway, and that the "spirit of giving" does help make an artist new fans.

There are many reasons for the downward trend in music sales. It's a complex problem in need of a more complex way of dealing with it...

--Mike

the problem with stats like that is they "assume" that those two million are "lost sales" when you know and I know that's ridiculous...

Trent Reznor probably lost several thousand sales to "marginal fans"...and then probably GAINED back a few thousand sales by making NEW fans--by offering his album for free on the internet in a lower bandwidth--this is not to mention "cross sales" on other albums that one gets when garnering new fans...

I'd lay a bet with you that Reznor's sales on his previous couple of albums (that were "normally" merchandised) were at around or under the 100,000 unit mark, anyways...

I'm not trying to suggest there aren't "greedy takers" out there taking greedily--just that most likely these people were NEVER going to shovel out a ton of money on CDs or Itunes anyway, nor most likely did they ever...JMO...

--Mike

No,

The best way to deal with it is to fold up the tents and quit expecting to make a dime from music. That way you are never dissapointed. And it will come to everybody else's business soon enough.

M

Hi again Marc,

I can see from the tone of your writing that this subject is very personal to you and that you have strong feelings about it, and that it's affected you and your friends, and that you speak from experience. I apologize if there is anything I have said that has upset you...

I lived and worked in Nashville between '93 and '97, and worked for the now defunct record chain "Tower Records" for twenty or so years. Tower insiders in hindsight wish they would have gone the route of "Amazon" a lot sooner, for their mail order department never quite caught on...and so my livelihood too, had been affected somewhat by the changing face of the record industry.

But what do we do? Do we believe that our fans/potential fans are, at root, "thieves", and then live a paranoid, pessimistic existence, and look at them with anger? ...when that would surely rot our souls... how long would we keep such fans?

....Or hate the Internet, when there's so much good that it offers? ...look at us!! We're using this very medium to share our thoughts across time and space...a little ironic, I think...

Sure, change is painful, but please allow for the possibility--JUST...the possibility that something good will come of all this...from this "changing face" of the music industry...self-production, for one, is now a reality.....so much great music that I would NEVER ever have heard, and PURCHASED, without the Internet and self-production....

Best wishes,
Mike

Mike,

It is a tough subject, especially when trying to teach people "reality" in a world of dreams. I believe that we keep going, but level expectations to a point that is workable. You don't expect to make millions in the music industry. You learn other skills and utilize those until or if music should take a turn toward making up a percentage of your income or life experience.
In fact, I try to completely demphasize the financial aspect of the industry to anyone I deal with. The Internet is there. It is the million pound bear in the woods. You can't pretend it is not, and can't avoid it. But you can acknowledge the damage it has wrought and can make plans to work within it.
Your example of Amazon is correct. But there will come a time when that is rendered extinct as well. My point is people have come to expect music for free, period. And that is not going away. In the infancy of this medium, people used it to use it to promote their live shows. until people stopped going to live shows, which has been the trend in the past couple of years.
My entire point, entire thread, entire perspective of all of this, is to demphasize cuts, money, fame, etc. and concentrate on the craft of writing great songs, learning about the marketing and try not to get too caught up in issues you have no control over.
It is a sore spot with me. Watching an industry all but end, is not a pleasent experience ever. But we can all elevate the community we have. That is my whole effort.

MAB

Marc,

With those last paragraphs, I now have a good understanding of where you are coming from, and it's a place that makes a lot of sense, and does appear to be rooted in reality as you say.

An interesting question to pose as a thread starter might be, "if somehow you could see your own future, and you knew for a FACT you would never EVER make one (more) penny at music, would music play the same part in your life that it does now? less? more?

Answering these kind of questions, early on, might keep someone from feeling that kind of "disillusionment" of which you speak...

Personally, I've tried escaping from music several times in my life, for various reasons, but it always finds me...

All the best, Marc,

Mike

So, the question is "What is music worth ? "

Just like any other commodity, it's only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

Like it, or lump it, that is todays reality. There's great indie music coming out which uses a different business model to that which has been used before. I'd liken it to the mass printing of sheet music around the turn of the previous ( 19th ) century. The music industry survived, just in a different format. It will continue to survive in the digitial age, though with a yet to be determined model.

Those that lament the "old days" I think, are refusing to turn their head towards the freight train, which is currently about 2 feet in front of them. Jump out of the way, or stand defiantly put ? Hmmmm.... not a hard choice.

cheers, niteshift

If you want to think about it, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

In the 50's,60's and up to the 70's, music was built around 45 records. They were small vinyl records, with a large hole, that needed an adapter to keep it from wobbling.They had two songs on it, one on the "A" side, one on the "B" side.

Artists, had to take their music directly to radio stations, driving from place to place, trying to get DJ's to add their record. In most cases, paying the DJ to get it started. A great deal of them were given away for free as promotion. There were even hundreds and sometimes thousands of copies with printing on
the record saying "Promotional copy only, not for sale."

Even a great selling record was around 40,000-50,000 copies, resulting in the artist/writer, making $10,000-$50,000 in a year/two year time frame.

In the 80's, videos hit the airwaves, first with rock, then with country, that used were to advertise the artist and bring people to his/her live shows and events. These were not paid for in the performance royalties. Total free advertising.

Nowadays, artists and writers are pitching their single songs,
called downloads,which are today's 45's, They usually have at least one or two songs on web sites offered at one time.

The Internet are comprised of millions individuals, of "DJ's"
who program their own play lists, I-Pods, personal "radio stations".

Artists are having to give away a good deal of their prouduct as a form of advertisement, much in the way of videos on You Tube
My Space, Face Book, which advertise the artist's live shows, and bring awareness to the artist's career.

Many artists and writers are making much less money. Sometimes less than $50,000 on songs that do not chart highly. and in the case of someone who has had a writing deal for some time, much of that might be eaten up in advances paid by publishing companies. So having a substansial medium size hit, and making not much more than $10,000 is a very real possibility.

The more things change.

MAB

What is music worth?
It is worth playing.

Hey Marc,

Yep, I think you pretty much nailed it. The similarities are strikingly similar. Just hard work and a prayer. The guy who has a "very good" song ( or a few )and figures out the angles, and chases down the leads, and does it consistenly, will start to make headway over someone who writes "excellent" songs, yet lets them rot on a website non-one is ever going to find.

I used to think ( maybe 5 yrs ago )fractination of the market was a good thing, it provided diversity and a greater carve up of the pie. Not so now, everyone just gets crumbs due to the overwhelming amount of material produced. Sure, you've got to dig hard to find the gems, but they're certainly there, and for the most part, free. Airplay and mechandising are the main driving forces, no longer sales, so I think I'll focus a bit more on marketing.

Mike D, you crack me up ! Get back in your box, and stop being so bloody well right !

cheers, niteshift

There will ALWAYS be people in any industry that inovate, succeed and prosper. Some will seemingly "not deserve it" for some people's taste, some of the most deserving simply will not catch the break.

A few things that provide some bright spots are things like around half of the current crop of mainstream country singers, are from labels and through publishers that did not exist five years ago. These are people who did not nessasarily have enormous budgets and the good wishes of the industry.

They are people who for the most part, worked their way into many doors, by being inovattive, pro-active, and WAY on top of their game. They are people who are very good studies, work their angles and interject themselves into an existing set of circumstances and have had great effect.

From a major writing party yesterday, to a writers night tonight here in Nashville, I have heard parts or total songs of over 200 songwriters. Quite literally hundreds of songs. And I can count on one hand the songs I can even remember. That is because it is very hard to do this right. Having a "good song" is simply not enough in our amazingly short attention spans. That is why we have to be "great." In the end, if you strip away all of the hyperbole, the money, the other trappings of fame, you are still with the backbone of our industry. Great songs.
Worry about writing those. All else will follow, or it won't. But you will have participated somewhere great and will be in a better personal space than you thought you might be.

All my best,

MAB

It's fitting that after all the pro and con argument, debate, emotion and all...that it comes back 'round to this simple truth...

...for the "value" of a "great song" to a time and place goes far beyond any exchanged currency, but into complex realms...some defining who we are, and of shaping us as people. Great songs "mark us" -- can "change us"...

But that all sounds like a lot of pressure, I'll just try to write the best song I can, and go from there...

Go into ANY group of 4 people and ask who writes or plays a musical instrument.... the witing includes lyrics ballads poetry and stories the musical instrument includes the voice/ singing... 2 will write 1 will play a musical instrument the 4th will either do one or the other or both or if not will own a musical instrument they always wanted to learn.... you need to push for true answers because for many it is a personal thing and they don't like to admit in public they do it for fear of being laughed at.... every one wants to be involved at some level in rhytmical story telling and music.... which to my mind are two sides of the same coin...

I believe there is too much focus on the well known and the being great (which is why a ticket to watch them costs 200-1000 dollars for one show) and not enough time spent on developing the grass roots local community culture.... Give to your community and it will cherish you forever.

Hi Noel,

You are coming from a broader, healthier perspective: that of music as a natural part of life--more the "folk" model. Do you think modern culture negatively affects this type of "grass roots community culture", or do you think they happily co-exist, side by side?

And worth listening to when well-performed.

I agree with Noel - think of all the guitar centers, drum shops, music teachers out there. If they were only selling to or training to people who make a living at music, do you think they would be able to stay in business? Hardly.....

I believe making music is important to a tremendous number of people - only if they only do it to please themselves and a few people around them. I'd go on to speculate that most of them are not thinking about music as a source of income but of enjoyment.

It's like playing in a softball league and watching the world series. No one would quit playing softball just because the major leaguers go on strike. Heck, they might even play a little more.

I have nothing but respect for people trying to make a living through music. There are many easier ways to make a living so it is obvious that they are doing it because they love it. Or, more accurately, are trying to make a living at something they happen to be passionate about. Nothing better to shoot for, in my opinion....

But if all radio play was shut down, all concerts cancelled, all CDs and ipods melted, music would survive just fine....

What's it worth? Well, it's priceless - in the correct meaning of that word......

All my own opinion, of course.

Scott

Music is worth something different to each person...

to the person who has lost a loved one- it's comfort, $ who cares
to the lovers touching tenderly- it's fuel for the fire, whatever $$, the man 'll pay
throw three beers back- you're gonna dance to something, in the price of the beer
take a shower- atleast 50% of people sing or hum something in the shower, more hot water costs more $$
take a road trip- what's a road trip without your favorite songs, buy the car with the good stereo $$
go to church- how better to offer praise and worship, feel good put a $20 in the hat
get married- here comes the bride, pay the entertainers would ya?
sporting event- we will, we will, rock you, built in the ticket price
performing musician- it's your groceries man, the more they pay, the better you eat
songwriter- it's your passion, maybe some of your groceries too, the fact you've created something that didn't exist 2 hours before, it's a gas, gas, gas... caution: may be addicting, very expen$ive to pursue as a career, may cost you your brain if you don't, or a couple o' wives if you do
memories- many of us associate events or highlights with what music was playing at the time.memories are priceless.
passing it on- it's of great joy to turn young listeners onto songs we consider wonderful, those always feel like special times. give 'em the cd, you already put it on your i-pod.i-pod=$$

Music-what's it worth? there is no price tag that can be placed on it...if it weren't for sale in stores or for download, we'd still be sitting around campfires playing or singing what brings us joy.

but, if we have to stick a price tag on it, i have 2 cd's i'll sell ya for $12.99 each or if you'd prefer individual tracks they're on i-tunes for 99 cents each, click that cdbaby link below and we'll get 'em right out to ya

Hey guys,

I kind of felt I needed to clarify a postion. Recently some of you might have noticed that I have been a little irritated with some of the talk of Government funding of the arts and of writers and artists that have the attitude of "Give me some of that, everybody else is doing it." That all bothers me and in my opinion creates many more problems for the arts than it helps.
And I have been somewhat focused on some of the negative issues, downloading, lost market share, etc. that we all have seen and discussed. But I don't want to indicate that I think music will go away. Actually, I feel exactly the opposite. We have seen dramatic increases in interest in music, from American Idol, to Nashville Star, home recording, sales of musical instruments and people getting music lessons and making trips to places like Nashville.
Actually, I am very encouraged by that and am attempting to help people do just that, which are what my postings are about. My actual business is as a "tour guide" for people trying to negotiate the complexities of the music business. So I hope that many come all the time. And they do.
My suggestions to you all are based upon my theory that you make great music, write great songs, learn your craft, make the relationships, learn the basics and intricacies of networking and business, exploring the various avenues in different markets, if you do that first, you will see that other things will follow. Proof is on pages like these, where there are many like minded individuals across the world who are sharing informaition, discussing elements and helping each other. I'd say that is a pretty strong indication that there is always hope and always interest in moving forward.

As always, I wish you the best.

MAB

I think it is also very important to never loose sight of the things that music brings which are simply priceless. For example, I had a lady come up to me after a show and tell me that one of my songs turned her life around. Another fan told me he listened to my music while jogging every morning to be inspired for the rest of the day.

While I definitely think that making money is important (I gotta eat), those are the things that truly matter to me. Something I did meant something to somebody else... wow!

Hi Marc I agree with what you say...I have been in the business a very long time and have seen many many changes..not just in musical styles but in attitudes and also the availability of production and recording methods. It is changing almost on a daily basis. Nowadays people all over the world can mindmeld instantly...these collabs and cowrites were unheard of even a few years ago. Anyone with a PC and a guitar or keyboard can record pretty good quality stuff in their own living room using state of the art software. Like yourself I try and help others in any way I can.

All that said it saddens me that the business is still run by suits who basically are only interested in profit and seem unable to sign up the best new innovative acts....they seem to concentrate on mediocre clones who produce third class same old lip sync Karaoke songs.

Whilst great music IS available from many indie artists the top liners are getting away with murder music wise. I watched the Brit awards last night and "OH dear" what a sorry sad bunch of third raters....this is the best in the business?...No way!

Whilst there is a place for everybody in our business it seems that the mediocre manufactured and overly hyped pop singers are rising to the top under false pretences whilst the quality musicians are struggling with the scraps left over.

Whilst we should be encouraging ALL fellow musicians there comes a point when we should say enough is enough. Expose these charlatans for what they are...overpaid, overhyped, overated and undertalented.

I watched a program on TV the other night about an indigenous tribe of people in the Amazon rain forest. They have had almost no contact with the outside world, have almost no possessions, have no clothes, no shoes, no tools, and spend all their time growing, hunting and preparing food to survive. But at one point in the show, one of the men started tapping out a rhythm on the ground with a stick and singing and dancing to entertain the others.

Music is in the dna.

Ello big Jim,

I'll be wearin' me kilt for ya today me boy if tha wind were not a blowin' up me drawers! LOL! (My grandparents were McClusky and Campbells.)

There is always crap. In the 50's for every Elvis, there were dozens of Fabians, Frankie Avalons, Tab Hunters, Pat Boones,etc. the 60's everybody got a Beatles hair cut and followed that trend, with the Bugs, the Turtles, the Trogs, etc.

70's brought the folk invasion, the heart throbbing disco beats, the 80'sthe Corporate Rock, the 90's Seattle and Athen's grunge, and their counter parts all over the world. It always happens. Everyone thinks they have the "next big thing" and trot them out. Record companies are there to make money. And everyone who puts an artist out there thinks they truely have it. It many times comes down to bad decisions, clouded thinking, record company insest (Maria Carey and Tony Motolla) and now every karaoke singer out there.

What we have to do my great plaid friend, is play the game. What if you were to find a decent artist in a local karaoke night with those stars in their eyes and looking very good? What if you had a very good song that you wrote with or for that singer? What if you had a really good demo of that song and he or she sang it? What if they ended up auditioning for POP Idol or in some other show and the judges while rejecting her or him, approahced them afterword and said "you know, sorry we just can't use you at this time, but what was that song you were doing? That is what we are looking for for another artist."

That just gave you another pitch on the song. And you might have helped that artist. And THAT has happened numerous times particularly here.
A couple of years ago, a song came across a record label's desk. He didn't care that much for the song, but LOVED the demo singer on it. When he asked who the singer was, it turned out that she was his own Secretary. She ended up with a record deal.

The point is that you can't do anything about the crap that is out there. You just need to make sure you are not part of it. Do the best you can. Write with other people, which give you more access. Write great passionate songs that people love. Get it out as much as you can in any way you can. If you concentrate on touching lives, making somebody's good memories, you are in the game, no matter if you never have a hit. As a great freind and co-writer of mine said in a song one day, "I might be the best three and half minutes of somebody's day." That is what you need to be.

MAB

Hi Marc and thanks for the response. I am a performer first and foremost so I do not need to write music to make a living. My living comes from my singing. Perhaps my views are slightly different from the none performing songwriters AND THERE IS THE POND. So many influences are different as well as tastes in music.
I agree that there has always been crap..but your definitions of good and bad differ from mine. I have always felt that Elvis was overrated and the Troggs were underrated. Wild thing is and always will be a classic. That said I understand your POV.
Yes I try and do my best..same as everybody else.
When all said and done songwriting has little to do with talent. It is down to connections and influence. You don't have to be Einstein to see that. Just look at the charts. I do not buy this nonsense that the cream will always rise.
I am of the opinion that we can do something about it. We can write better stuff as you say BUT we can also draw attention to the crap and show people that there IS better stuff out there.
A lot of indie music is now sold online outside the control of the traditional crap shovellers. They do not like it....people muscling in on their monopoly.
TV and especially reality shows are ruining the business because slots which used to be the chance for new acts to show off their stuff are now used to promote nobodys.
I think we should speak out against this and not try and pretend everything is OK.
Whilst it is nice to be nice about these "popstars".....it is better to be honest.

Jim,

There may be some things that you think of as crap but many people don't. Actually the majority of sales are not on the internet. They are actually downloading for free. The sales represent about 28%. Free and peer to peer file sharing dominate. So people can get millions of hits and sell very little.
Yes, there are people that are outside the mainstream and always have been. But in order to get more visibility you need retail establishments and visibility in the mainstream. There are just too many sites on the Internet to make for a convincing sales figures. That is why you have reality shows. When you can be seen by 100 million people, that is a chance at a lot more sales. But I am the first to agree that there are many crappy things.
And by the way, I liked the Troggs okay. It is just the follow the leader business. But in all cases, you can NEVER force people to buy records. Ever.
In Nashville, people sometimes wonder how some songs get on ther radio. There are subjects or pathways they do that most people would go, NO WAY. Look at the track record of the writer. You sell several millions in record sales and represent millions of dollars, yeah, you are going to have a lot of leeway. Or if you are the artist.
But make no mistake, there is a lot of money invested in all of these things and nobody just throws money away. So somebody is buying it, going to concerts, buying downloads, joining fan clubs, doing web sites, lining up at meet and greets and getting autographs.
And that is where the rubber meets the road.

MAB

And you might make the case that Elvis might have been overrated, but he changed the nature of the business, inspired millions of writers, artists, clothing and hair styles, fueled magazines, movies, television, web sites, etc. like almost no one else has. Like the title of one of his albums said,

"One hundred million Elvis fans can't be wrong."

MAB

Oh yes they can LOL!!!

Nice chatting and seeing different POV. I am about as far from Nashville as you can get both musically and geographically. I know it has its own rules and peculiarities but at the end of the day we are all music lovers. I accept the "one mans meat is another's poison" scenario but maintain that most musical people can differentiate crap and tone deafness from real talent without much trouble.

I just do my best....and am perhaps too critical of untalented people who make something in the business when perhaps there are more deserving folk.

Too honest for my own good....was how one well known artist who I used to work with once described me. He was probably correct.

Speak to you soon. JIM

"All my wishes, hopes and fears for the last 30 years
I write for the love of the art
It's really kinda funny when you do it for the money
Won't be long til you fall apart"

Ain't much else to it......Uhh, that is, if you're talking about music's worth in other terms besides just money....

This may be a subject for another thread, but after reading Snake's (Sam) quote I want to respond.
I have been playing music in one form or another since I was nine years old when my parents bought me a violin. Music was something to learn in my family just as reading and writing was. I later learned the clarinet, then the sax in middle and high school. I always had a guitar around but never really got serious about playing it until I was 21. I started writing my own songs about six years ago. I've always put my guitar skill above songwriting. I would rather be a great guitar player than a great songwriter but being both would be a bonus.

As a person who has been around music, but not the music industry all of my life, I don't see any problem with a person who wants to make a living with music at any capacity including writing songs for money. There seems to be a disconnect from various threads that I've read between the love of a craft and simply going into the craft just for money. It isn't that simple.
Sure, there are amateurish songwriters who think that they can make easy money with their clever lyrics who have no clue of how the industry really works. You can spot them a mile away. Some may be "crumudgeons".

My point is that I see nothing wrong with someone who has been groomed since childhood to read, write and perform music and later took it upon them self to continue the craft into adulthood. It's no different than any other profession. Yes the love of the art is there, but most likely ingrained from experience and it won't go away. Just like I've read on these boards from others, If my songs are never heard, it doesn't matter and that makes me kind of immortal because they will always be there.

To paraphrase Marc, if you want to write simply for the love of it, you could also make ceramics, paint or maybe get into macrame. Everyone who writes a hit song gets paid. Ben

Ben,

All my life I've had folks criticize me for "selling out" with my music. The folkies thought because I played some pop stuff or learned jazz chords that I was selling out. The acoustic crowd was horrified that I would play an electric guitar. The bluegrassers thought it ridiculous when I got gigs playing R&B, and the rockers couldn't get into my folks stuff. Most of those "purists" are working in a bank somewhere, wearing ties and getting their butts chewed out by bosses from whom they live in terror.

I've played music and I've put up drywall. I'd rather play music.

Thanks Mike, I hope that you don't think that I was complaining because I wasn't. I was only trying to figure out the "love of music" thing that is so basic, and the correlation between that and getting paid to write and/or make music.
I've never had the problems that you have had with "selling out" because I have been pretty consistent with my music, and I don't have an iota of your level of experience, but if I did, I'm sure that I would take it the same way that you do. Music is music and banks are banks. I'll take the music. Banks are like hospitals to me. I don't like to go into them.

I've had about 50 jobs in my life, the longest lasting nine years. I did drywall and hated it. You gave me an idea for a gen. thread. "Dirty jobs", see you over there. Ben

No, I didn't read you as complaining. Write that song, it's a hit.

Ben,

The people that I know who do this well, do both. If someone like Jeffery Steele can write "My Wish" he was doing it for his daughter, who was getting married. Chris Wallin, writing "I'm Trying" for a man who was being harrased by his ex for child support money when the man was having a really rough time.
Jeffery wrote "What Hurts the Most" to express heartace over his 14 year old Son Alex's death on a four wheeler. David Vincent Williams wrote "I'm Moving On" when he was getting ready to quit music and move home. Tim Nichols and Craig Wiseman wrote "Live Like you were Dying" for a friend who was dying of cancer and it happened to fit Tim McGraw's situation with his Father.
The key to it is finding the Heart of the song. That is why you always follow the three rules of songwriting from our point of veiw here:
#1 Reality based.
#2 Conversational
#3 Great Melodic hook.

If you find real subjects about real people, you can find a lot more heart than just making things up. But you never let the facts get in the way of a good story. It doesn't always have to happen to you. You don't have to be a homeless person to know it sucks pretty bad. But you do have to find elements of truth in that lyric.

Making sure that your lyric is something people could have a conversation with. If you can't speak it, don't write it.

Working out your melodies around singability, where anyone could sing it, not being complicated, keeping it simple and where anyone can hum along, is the key.

MAB

I am in the fortunate position of being paid for doing what I like best...singing and making music. OK sometimes I have to perform stuff that is "not my cup of tea" or stuff that I have done to death but it is a small price to pay and is miles better than a proper job. Re selling out...never thought about...never been accused of it and had plenty folk wish they could do what I do and had my job.

I would do it for nothing...but getting paid is a bonus.

As for songwriting I dabble for my own amusement and could not care less if anybody listens or any of my songs ever "make it"
It would of course be neat to have a hit or two but not the end of the world if I do not. My life does not revolve around trying to make it happen. I realise that if it did the odds would still be stacked against me. I will of course try and network build up songwriting partnerships and pitch but no big deal if it comes to nothing.

jim,

I have never known a successful songwriter who moved or started doing music for the money. Actually if you are trying to do this you are making music while working two and three jobs. If it works out, that is gravy.
But you do get closer to the mark by writing with other people, building those relationships and understanding your market. Making money is just a by product if you do it right and all the planets align.
But mostly it is just doing the work every day and staying at it.

MAB

I cited this quote for a reason, I have written several songs about homelessness, all in a humorous nature and people connect. Leave out the humor and they go away.
If you can get the audience to laugh about their situation by using the old time hobo song revised, than that may be a sample of everyday life today for a lot of the music buying public. I know what you are saying about father/daughter love, personal tragedies, etc. but people do love to laugh at themselves. Tobey Keith is a fine example of someone laughing at ones self. Ben

Marc, the points of yours and Rand's that are resonating most with me--keeping me up at night, in fact--are keeping songs positive, and getting out of my own head.

Blammo.

I get it. I also get that it's easier said than done...but I get it. I look forward to writing more appealing songs because of those two gems right there. THANK YOU.

Marc, my own personal route I have decided to go down is write, record and produce my own album at home and, depending if I can pull of yet another 0% credit card balance trick, to get it professionally mixed and mastered, then sell it on iTunes. How I will sell it, is a bridge I will cross when I meet that bridge.

It seems to me that this is by far the best route to go down for me and perhaps a lot of others too. Rather than bemoaning the Internet for damaging the music industry, I personally think it's given the music industry back to the the artists, and made it far easier to go it alone without their backing. Sure that's made it possible for a zillion others to do the same but the cream will always rise to the top, and I intend to be the cream.

The artist route is one I think more should go down, if they have the relevant tools, and you're no longer tied by the rules of writing a song to pitch purely as a commercial product.

Just out of interest, what would you say the odds are of the guy like me, a nobody in the music world, ever achieving real success by this route?

Cheers Lucian

Lucian, it seems to me that Marc's priciples would still apply. You've still got to sell your cds to the cd buying public.

Lucien,

Actually what I am saying includes the internet. The money that was once was in music is no longer there. So everyone has to get used to making less. But everyone is doing exactly what you are talking about. Recording their own product, getting it distributed as best they can. The Internet is a tool. Just like retail stores.
But you have to get people to you. How are you going to do that? How many shows are you playing? How far does your reach extend? How many people come to your shows. Since about 3 out of 50 will buy CD's, how many are you getting there.
The Internet has been the worlds biggest dual edge sword. You can let people know who you are, what you do and give them examples, delivered to their living room, through the computer. But it has also conditioned them to expect music for free. They are not interested in your problems writing, recording and putting a CD together. They think that just because you are musician, you make a lot of money and don't need theirs. And besides, "Everybody does it." So that is what you have to do.
How good a chance do you have? As good or bad as anybody. If you are hard working, put about 10-12 hours a day in making phone calls, advancing gigs, contacting people to come to your gigs, local press interviews, CD reviews, radio interviews, making yourself availible to local charities, and venues, driving long distances, making little money until you build a following to make a decent cover charge, CD, hat, and t-shirt sales, and every day are thinking about the next three weeks, you will probably do fine. If you don't do all that, you will have a lot of CD's to use for coasters, give to friends, build birdhouses out of, and learn to not do it the second time the same way.

Like everything, this business is what you put into it.

MAB

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but this is a bad plan! I know it is, because that's what I've done with my last CD of which I've sold precisely 1 copy on iTunes to date. (I did sell quite a few copies on CD at concerts and such)

Being present on iTunes (or in any other shop) by itself is not enough. You have to tell people you are there! That's why this time around, I've set money aside for a promotional campaign. (if you're interested in details, read this: http://www.jimofferman.net/blog/2009/financials)

Conventional wisdom is that you have to spend about 40% of your budget on marketing, but even 10% (what I'm doing) is MUCH better than nothing. People do buy music, t-shirts and what not... but you gotta reach out to them first!

Some more rain on the Internet parade:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/dec/23/music-sell-sales

John

That report has largely been debunked by various sources. The problem with that report is that MCPS-PRS looked at a single point of sale and made their claims based on that. Meanwhile, eMusic reported that virtually every song in their catalog (which exists entirely out of 'long-tail' music) sold at least one copy over the same period.

John,

Great research. That says that last year of the 13 million songs availible for sale on the Internet, 10 million did not sell a single copy. That is 85% of music that was given away for free. That needs to be something that you "I'm selling it on the Internet" point of view need to think about. The Internet is used as an advertising tool, and music is being given away to get people to shows.
So Lucian, I go back to my original point, that is you want to work hard and get out there performing all the time, you will do pretty well. If you are thinking you are going to sit in your living room at your computer, waiting for CD BABY or some site to have your money rolling in, you better have a REALLY good day job.
Music has always been a "point of sale" business. Most people buy CD's after they become aware of an audience, primarily through videos. So before you think you can just put out a shingle and declare yourself a "successful musician" you need to be prepared to get out there, advertise and work.

MAB

Jim,

Even if those exact numbers are wrong, it is pretty accurate as far as I am concerned in dealing with writers, artists, record companies, producers, etc. Downloading has decimated what we make, there is absolutley no doubt about that. And that most people are conditioned to demand music for free. They feel they are entitled to it.
Which reinforces my whole mind set which is to de-emphasize the money factor, do music for the love of it, and then if good things happen (and they will) count everything as a plus.

MAB

On this subject i am of the opinion that the technology was available and being used before the record companies, including ones like SONY who are also in the technology business started paying attention to it as a viable entity for retail. They did nothing to protect themselves and in turn lost billions of dollars for them and artists on their label. Yes they were caught with their pants down and are still feeling the effects of it. On the other hand the indie artists thought they were getting a leg up only to be three steps behind the techies on keeping income flowing to them for each download, download 1 file share 8 is about where it is , but that's just my opinion. Opinions don't change the facts of the world we live in. Those are the rules of the game now, we all must deal with it as it is.

Yes Marc the establishment do not like it when they have to compete on a level playing field.
If people can put out good music for free and advertise for free and network for free...forcing the establishment to rethink then I say more power to their elbow.

Record shops are all but a thing of the past...closing at an alarming rate.
Downloads are on the up. Most of the top recording labels have missed the boat despite trying to get legislation in their favour. Independants are NOW making their mark..the establishment with its conveyer belt manufactured songs and acts are on their way out. They are being replaced by home grown stuff that is every bit as good if not better than the cloned mass produced stuff we here on TV and radio.

Live music is now making a comeback. Perhaps we are going back to the days of the front room concerts where everyone had to do a party piece and everybody played an instrument.

Music will never die....it evolves...I will be glad when the current dinosaurs become extinct. They have ruled for far too long.

Maybe if the dinosaurs made music for the love of it and had some taste we would not be in this situation.

I love music BUT I cannot accept the mediocrity that these guys churn out. I am capable of doing that on my own without having to get paid obscene amounts of money.

Moker,

You are very right in your assesment. The deal with Sony and other entities is while they lost revenue in the purchasing of music, acts, etc. they made money in their product divisions, I-pods, CD burners, blank CD's. etc. These companies are invested in many different avenues and have companies under different names so you don't always know it is them.
But it is here, there is no avoiding it. We are going to have to make the best of it. More people will get known better and their music will be out there. But getting paid for it in that way, will be difficult. At the end of the day it is about activity.

MAB

People being conditioned to demand music for free is only a part of the whole picture. A big part, perhaps, but if people REALLY didn't want to pay for music, why the heck does the iTunes Store still work? And why are initiatives like Spotify gaining tracktion? The market is transitioning and yes, unfortunately, this has a negative impact on many who rely on the old market for their livelihood. On the other hand, there are plenty of folk who are thriving in the new market. The success of someone like Jonathan Coulton, who's made a career out of giving away music for free (and then selling it to his fans once they were hooked), would have been entirely unthinkable 10 years ago. The tide's changing. Get with the flow or get out of the water!

I disagree with de-emphasizing the money factor. If you really want to make a living with your music, you can. All the tools are there, it just ain't easy. You can't just flip a switch and wait for the money to come rolling in. You have to work for it. And gold plated humvees might not be in your direct future (but who cares about those things anyway?)

One more example: Steve Lawson is a solo bassist from the UK, who has just returned from a profitable tour doing shows in living rooms across the US.

Anything goes these days!

Jim,

You must have a different situation in Scotland than we do here because live venues are closing at an alarming rate. And I wouldn't hold out hope for the dinosaurs to die off at any time soon, they still hold the cards, still control retail, and still are the primary purveyors of video and advertising budgets.
I don't know if you read the other thread that a study was done and 85% of music on the Internet for sale was given away for free. Out of 13 million songs out there 10 million did not sell one copy. An argument was made that disputed those findings but in my dealings with the industry, both independent and mainstream artists, that is about right.
But music will live on and adapt. Always does. But their will always be a mainstream. It doesn't just one day dissapear. There will always be charts, always be record companies. Always be publishers. Someone will always make money and most people won't. And even when you think some of these people make a fortune, they actually make much less than you might think.
The point of everything I do, and probably Rand and other pros is that you make great music and constantly work on getting it and yourself out there in as many ways as you can. That is the other constant. Those that work hard at it, will be doing well.
Those who don't, won't.

MAB

meanwhile Taylor Swift tickets are going for $220 a head on the Ticketmaster auction for the concert here in Jacksonville in May. The site was jammed to where you couldn't get through the day they went on sale and now there's an auction starting at $220...sounds like the mafia is in the ticket business...ha...I think Taylor's activity has generated some demand, whatcha think?

Our bluegrass band sells cds steadily on the internet. We've got three cds on CDBaby and sell all three equally as well. That's been one of the keys, we sell the three cds at just about three times the rate we sold when we only had one.

What gets our sales? TV exposure. We're on RFD-TV's bluegrass show fairly regularly. Everytime we appear, sales spike. That, and live exposure. When we play the festival circuit we sell there (and those live sales account for more than a third of our yearly sales) and we tell them to look us up on CDBaby.

Many of the folks who buy from us have heard us before, have bought from us before, and stop by our tables at the festivals to say they bought our cd on CDBaby.

It's all the fact that they know us, and knew us before they bought. I'm not aware of one sale that we got from people just cruising the net looking for bluegrass and bumping into us.

Jim,

I think we are on the same page here. The people who do well are innovators. I have a LOT of friends (including myself) who have found ways to combine their music with motivational speaking, some who have turned alcohol problems into a positive (one friend has entire CD's and videos dedicated to just that, there are AA radio stations, and she does a comedy routine about a very serious subject) Some find house concerts. Some use the internet to great effect, but almost ALL of them are out there "pressing the flesh."
You just can't count on any one thing, great writing, good recordings, videos, Internet, live shows, advertising, etc. to make your fortune. You have to do it all.

MAB

Hi Marc you are preaching to the convrted I do all the things you say...I perform live...I network...advertise...sell stuff at my gigs....I even record session stuff and diversify by making jingles and voice overs. I make a reasonable living and do not put all my eggs in one basket.

Yes online sales ratio to stuff posted is very poor and I believe the figures...but back in the bad old days the situation was even worse. Nobody other than the handpicked few or very rich people who could afford to produce a record and pay for expensive studio time and pressing of records had any records out in the first place.

Established big name stars are now performing live concerts to make a profit because the record sales are too low. I remember the time when tours were huge lossmakers but neceesary to promote an album.

Now a tv or radio played track is there to promote a tour.

I have to agree times are tough and the first thing to take a back seat and get cut back is music and entertainment. I do not think that it is as bad here as in some places in the States but it is getting that way. Being the Capital of Scotland we have many tourists and a large population so there are tons of places to play. The cream will always have work.

I think we have a lot in common even if it is only a love of music and a desire for perfection.

You also wear skirts with no underwear so there is that additional drawing factor. LOL!

We are on the same page. Keep at it and let me know if you ever need the ol' Jingoistic American perspective.

I don't know if I told you of my friend and client David Campbell from Edinborough. David comes here a couple of times a year, and was having me critique a song. He had these lines,

"Going to New Orleans, gonna listen to some jazz,"
"Goign to New Orleans, gonna catch the Mardi Gras"

I said, "David, it is pronounced Mardi GrAW, not Mardi Grass."

"Oh," he said in a very thick Scottish Brogue,
"I thought it was the plural!"

Got to love the Scotts!!

MAB

Marc, thanks for the reply, how many shows do I play? None. I might do the odd little gig in Camden Town where I live when the time is right, but never outside of Camden Town... Kentish Town maybe. I'm hard working but not in the way of using the phone for 12 hours a days. I hate making phone calls at all, and that's not something that will change. Of all the things you mentioned I will probably do almost none. I have health problems which limit my energy, and currently ALL that limited energy is devoted to my music - I only leave my flat twice a week currently to do the shopping. So with all its downsides, the internet has given me a possible avenue to take my life out of a terminal drift it had been in for a long time.

Like you say, this business is what you put into it, and I do literally put my soul into it, so my hope is my music has that little bit of something about it to make it stand out from the ordinary. Deciding to make my own album was a kind of act of faith on my part, and I'll leave it to the music gods to show me what to do and how to promote my album when it's done.

Cheers Lucian

Lucian,

I wish you well. I just don't know how you make people know you are there outside of taking your music to them. I am a student of music history, and I have just never heard of anyone building a fan base by staying in the living room. Maybe you can be the first.

MAB

Perhaps you need to study some more then, 'cause that's what he did!

Stayed at home the first year, writing, recording and releasing a new song every week. He only started touring once his music had already found an audience on the web. The key thing, of course, is that his "Thing a week" by itself was a noteworthy endeavor, which is why (I think) he managed to draw attention to himself online.

Hi Marc I agree with Jim. In this PC age it is easy to get people to hear your music....all from the comfort of your own living room. I do very little of this however... As a performing singer I try to build a fan base at gigs...but certainly the way forward is to network online AND get out and meet people as well. Either way on its own can work but doing both covers all the bases.
Time is precious and you have to manage it and use it the best way you can.

jim,

Very nice. We people over here that win the lottery too. They don't do anything except put a few bucks in the convenient store and buy a ticket. Happens in about one in a billion times. But I don't think people want to plan on feeding their families, paying their bills, based upon that.
The things I talk about are the reality of life. I have heard a lot of these people who do nothing but stay in their living rooms. As a matter of fact, I would say a majority of many people I work with do just that. And their music reflects it.
The Internet is a tool, like everything else. And some people succeed. I wonder how well he would be doing if he never left his home. In the 90's we had a lot of people plan on using the Internet to make their fortunes. Some did. For a while. Then it burst. It was called the dot.com bubble.
But I guess since it is so easy now, no writer should ever even get out anymore. I guess everybody can base their hopes on the Internet, and no one has to even do any work outisde their living room again. Cool. I welcome it. Thins out the competition.

MAB

Well, there's staying at home and staying at home. If all you do is record a CD, put it on the web and wait and see what happens, then your chances of success are comparable to winning the lottery with a ticket you found on the sidewalk.

But that's not what Jonathan Coulton (the guy I linked to above) did. He came up with a novel concept, attracted a lot of fans with that and eventually made decent living by selling his music to those fans - all from the comfort of his living room.

During the dot com bubble everyone and your uncle thought that the internet would make them rich with next to no effort. Why people believed the internet to be like that is quite beyond me (the idea is just plain stupid). However, the fact that the bubble burst doesn't mean that you can't make a lot of money on the web (this guy made tens of thousands of dollars a month with the ads on his blog). Of course, running a business on the internet is just like running any other business - you gotta be smart, you gotta work hard and you gotta reach out and let people know you.

Jim,

If you read the post from Lucian, that is just what he intends to do. He doesn't play out, doesn't co-write, doesn't go anywhere outside of his neighborhood. He is wanting to do a CD and put it out on the Internet.
You see, I am a reactionary individual. I read and listen to what people say and try to give them advice based upon real life instead of theories and execptions to the rules. That doesn't happen enough to base career advice on.

When I moved to Nashville 20 years ago, it was called a "ten year town." That means it took a minimum of ten years to develop the skills, get attention of hit writers, publishers, record company exectutives and start making tangible inroads. I got a major cut essentially the first night in town. It took an average of 2 years to play a regular set at the Bluebird cafe' which is Nashville's top songwriting night club. There is a standing list of 25,000 people who have auditioned and are waiting to play. I played in three weeks. I had serious attention from major record labels and publishing company entities within six months.
I have been working with an artist and have gotten him to the point of signing a major label record deal worth around 2 million dollars. That is one year after beginning working with me and is based mostly around songs I wrote with him.
You see, I have broken all the rules too. I could point to all kinds of execptions and give examples of things like that, but that would not do Lucian or people in that position any favors. These major companies have millions of dollars to put into promotion and do just that. If they could just sit back and break artists on internet, they would. They don't because they know like always you have to get your artists and music in front of the people.
Even the fellow you are talking about, I am sure did a lot of work that you probably don't even know about to promote what he is doing. And he probably had a lot of people along the way who did elements of helping him along, from a grass roots organizations that tell their friends, and business people that helped him along at various points. And he might not even know all the people who have helped him. We often don't know of our own "guardian angels" who are out there promoting us and doing things behind the scene that make our careers come alive.
The point of all of this is developing strategies to get music and artists, and writers out into the real world. The Internet, through web sites, networking sites and other resource avenues are important to a career but not the only avenue. And on their own, only end up being in the millions of "spam" e-mails we see too much of from people we don't know.
People like Lucian come to Nashville all the time. Those that have very little real world experience outside the confines of their own computers or in their own social and local networks. And their music sounds like it. It sounds as if they went to a grab bag of subject matter, rhymes and cliched' approaches. Because they write songs that all sound exactly alike, with very little differentiation between them and everyone else out there. The only way that happens is to create a product that separates you from everybody else and that only comes through knowing what is out there.

That is what I suggest. Get out there and find out what is there, and do your homework before you start a project or end up spending money to get the same results the majority of writers and artists do. Doing forgettable product that costs money, time and precious emotional resources.

MAB

Marc,

Sometimes, it IS important to write the same old love song. It's part of the learning process, and there's no way around that unless you're Jimmy Webb, and even he wasn't born a great songwriter, he wrote the same crap we all do when he started out.

Picasso painted in the style of his predecessors before he went all Cubist on us. There is a place, in a writers life, for the good, the bad, and the ugly. Hopefully, the "good" is before us, the "bad" behind, and "ugly" the one we write every time we get drunk and think Waylon needs a new song.

What in essence you are saying in your last post then, is folks come to you thinking they are more "advanced" in their writing then they really are, and you have to set many of them straight, which is probably a difficult job, unless you're a sadist.

But keep in mind that there are a myriad of reasons why people write, not all of them are to be a hit songwriter in Nashville. Some people might just want to be able to sing their girlfriend a nice, heartfelt love song, with perhaps a bit less concern to have a "unique" way of putting it, and his existence and song is just as important and valid as the guy trying to make a living finding unique ways of saying "I love you"...

I DO think you underestimate the importance of DESIRE to achieve a goal. One can find ways of networking that haven't even been invented yet, if one has a strong enough desire to achieve a goal.

In a way, it's Darwinism in action: the ones with no true desire fall by the wayside over time, leaving the ones with true desire. The ones with true desire who are too stubborn to learn from their mistakes and write a better song then give up, leaving those willing to put out a big effort, and who are open to learning and growth. For these people, the ones that STILL don't make it--HAVE, in a sense, because they didn't play the victim, but truly gave it everything they had; moreover being someone who can write a good song is, in and of itself, a good and important thing that nobody can take away from you.

I don't think it's fair or nice to use Lucian in your example, though, because there are those with health problems who become actualized, and achieve their goals. And besides, Lucian writes a rather unique song, he has a distinct songwriting "voice", and he does just need to stick with it, and to network to the best of his ability. He is writing as an "artist", not as a Nashville songwriter, so saying "People like Lucian come to Nashville all the time" can be misleading. People like Lucian do not go to Nashville at all, you are using Lucian as your example of a "naive person" and I think Lucian knows what he needs to know at this particular place and time.

Why are we here? Let's not forget that as long as we participate in this JPF process to some degree, we ARE networking, we ARE becoming better songwriters, we point out each others cliche's and promote each others' uniqueness, and only a small percentage are trying to be songwriters in the sense that you are experienced with, in Nashville in the year 2009.

Finally, I stand by what I said: that the ONLY question we really need to ask, is: If I knew I would NEVER make another penny (more) at music, would I continue to make it?

Mike

Marc, I'm going to a specific thread in response to these comments.

Mike,

I don't think you understand very much about what it is I do for a living. I actually work almost exclusively with people who just want to write. I am involved in helping them in their goals to make them better writers. And no,not everyone wants to be a hit Nashville songwriter. I don't want to be a hit Nashville songwriter.I want to write the best songs I can and teach by example. But almost every one that comes to Nashville, gets on these threads, and work at writers, generally want some exposure to the industry in some way shape or form. That is reality.
I am making no aspersions on Lucian's talent or Charachter, or any physical problems he might have. and if it seems like that I apologise. If you knew me or my works you would know that I am the last person to do that.
I respond to people's comments about process and try to give them some ideas of what to expect. When I talk about "people like Lucian come to Nashville" i mean people that don't get far from their own door yet are wanting people in the industry or in the public to "discover them through the internet.' Some might,but without some kind of contact with the public, the chances of that are very slim just due to the amount of traffic on the Internet.
I am not trying to preach Nashville or the music business. I am trying to show the "other side of the desk" which is what people come to this town for. If it doesn't apply to those who are not interested in it, they should ignore what I am saying. Everyone has their own methods. Some are new and innovative and some are as old as music itself.
People come to Nashville primarily because it is a fairly easily navicable community of like minded individuals. It is not just country. It is blues, rock, soul, R&B, Rap, hip hop and Christian and pretty much all things in between. But one of the main reasons they come is because almost all other forms of music are self contained. which means there is almost no chance for outside cuts. It is a do it yourself world.
What I am attempting to do is show the pros and cons and provide some insight to what it is here. They are usually not going to Europe, Asia, Austrailia, or other countries or other towns in the US. They come here. And they come usually becauase they can't find the sense of community in their own neighborhoods. At least that is what they tell me. That is why I address things in Nashville. For the people who are interested in it. Those who are not interested in it don't have to listen to anything I or anyone else says. I am not the last word. Just one of them.
And even if people are not trying to be an artist, writer or conformist, that is fine. But the second they step into the arena of ideas, at least as far as it goes here, there are rules and etticate that apply. No one has to learn or adhere to them. But it makes things a lot easier when they do.

MAB

Marc,

Perhaps you don't know what I do. I moved away from Nashville to take care of my mom who is now 92. It's not writing lyrics for a living, but it IS a job with a heart. Nowadays I'm physically around other songwriters quite a bit less than you, I'd say. Still, it was fairly understandable to me, and pretty easy to see that another member of this community might not enjoy being made the "poster-child" of the "wide-eyed huckster" on his way to Nashville.

In the future I won't talk directly to you about music outside of "the Nashville perspective" since you seem to indicate that I should stick to "your" subject, and that's okay by me... But just because I bring up different ideas doesn't mean "I don't understand what you do".

Still, you might understand how somebody seeing "what is music worth", and reading Everett's initial post, might think their ideas are welcome, and might be a little confused by how one particular perspective has come to dominate "the conversation"...

You really can't disagree with anything I said in my prior post, and maybe folks DO need to be reminded that a steadfast desire is as major a puzzle piece as having the goods. I, like you, wish for more folks to understand what they really want from music, so there's no deep regret at the end of the line.

Mike

No argument there!

All I'm saying is that it doesn't really matter whether you go offline or online or both. In every case, your success is most often directly proportional to the effort you put in.

great thread...i love reading all these perpsectives

..ant

my thoughts on "what is music worth"

my grandfather was a troubador, from a long tradition in spanish families in new mexico...played traditional spanish folk songs...wrote these great "one-off" songs for weddings, birthdays, anniversaries and such...songs were like little stories, he wrote in a lot of personal details about folks lives..when he'd play and sing them, everyone would go wild whenever they would hear these fun lines with references to memorable moments...afterwards, these songs were pretty much "thrown away"...but they were priceless, as are my memories of them and him.

my cousin was a singer and bass player in a local band. they never became famous and played mostly clubs, weddings and such. I don't think he ever did anything for a living but play music - a working musician. he passed away a couple of years ago, and at his funeral a stream of friends, many musicians, came and talked about the impact his music, playing and entertaining had on their lives...to play music for a living and leave an impact...pretty priceless.

no fame, no big money involved...but pretty priceless stuff

..ant

my thoughts on the music industry, making money, etc.

i think music industry is like any other industry. build your skills, work hard, produce a quality product (i.e. hooky material), get yourself out there, network like crazy, pave the ground for your success. but for big success -- having a hit song for example, which seems to be a lot of the focus in various discussions -- you need a combination of timing and luck. you can be very talented, very dedicated and hard working, but if the market ain't buying what you got right now, seems you're out of luck. It's gotta be the right place, right time and the right song.

I remember seeing No Doubt when they were just a local band. After their huge success, Gwen Stefani said they spent years without major success because their music was catchy and positive, while everyone was into Nirvana and depressing grunge. When that shifted, they were in the right place, right time, with the right material.

Luck is so important. Seems like for every rule, there's an exception:

write positive songs -- Tracy Chapman's stuff is kinda depressing, but she's had success
don't write the same thing over and over again -- Jack Johnson and tons of others have had success repeating their formulas
don't just post on youtube and wait for success - Chocolate Rain - 34M views on YouTube and the guy has made "hefty hefty fees" for licensing

I read that Slumdog Millionaire almost went straight to DVD!

..ant

my thoughts on the internet

it's only just begun. everything will change.

being in the software industry for 25 years, where piracy has been a problem since day one, it's a losing battle. i think in the end, subscription based music services will win the day. every song ever recorded for a simple monthly fee. if the industry doesn't make it happen soon, eventually peer to peer systems will win instead, because they will offer essentially the same thing. unstoppable. ease of use is the only barrier and that's coming down with each new generation of peer-to-peer software.

the extreme possibility is that recorded music moves to a creative commons model. recordings will be free. musicians will make money by performing. songwriters by licensing for commercial uses. but no individual is gonna be paying for songs or CDs one-off.

The only choice, in my mind, to stop the peer-to-peers is for the industry is to offer a subscription service that is dead-simple, high-quality, inclusive of all songs, and cheap cheap cheap. make the peer-to-peers irrelevant by offering a more appealing commercial solution.

I'm not a student of music history, but it seems to me like most of our history, musicians made money by performing, composers made money on commissioned works and sponsorship, and most music was performed outside of commerce..there's every possibility that this period of time (invention of recording to now) where songwriters made money via royalties, and musicians made money selling copies of recorded performances, will be just a quaint and fleeting blip on music history. kinda like the quaint and fleeting blip in history where we could simply pull oil out of the ground to fuel our engines (a time soon coming to an end). a lot of money was made until everything changed and new business models had to be invented.

..ant

one more thing...

i'll never make a dime but i'll do it till i die

..ant

P.S. maybe that'll be the title to my next song

Music is worth getting mad about.

This is what I'd like to see happen. Every song ever recorded available to listen to on a paid service, each song listened to would be paid a small fee, every song downloaded by listener,a larger fee. This service should be available by car and home radio as well as by the net. A listener should be able to program his/her preference in music to be available at the touch of a button, and be able to search, find and add more music to their program. I'm sure this technology is available, just a matter of someone applying it. All should be available world wide by satellite.

I think this would put way too much power in too few peoples' hands. Would your songs be included in this, Ev? Or anyone's here at JPF? What would be the prerequisites? Let's say the bar is set at how many indie downloads one sells before getting added. Then a rich person would have a much bigger advantage over a poor artist by simply buying enough of their own songs to get put on the mainstream service. Or would there be "programmers" to decide what gets on? That wouldn't ever get corrupt, would it?

Yes, there are a lot of upsides to it, I'm just too skeptical about the downsides. If one service offers everything, it turns into a monoopoly.

We all have different taste in music, one man's meat is another man's poison. Much of the music played on radio today, in many genres, is poison to me, but someone likes it, so it is made available. So why not make all professionally recorded songs available on some giant storage hard drive. It would be up to the listener(subscriber) to locate the genre of music he/she likes and filter through to find songs that appeal to them. They could download and pay for them or program them to listen to on radio or what ever. There are programs available on the net now that offers much the same service, but you have to access it through the net, I'd like to see it accessed through other means like radio or TV, in your car or home. This service could offer several fee structures to choose from, like a very low fee for having access but paying a fee for each song listened to or a higher fee for access with unlimited free listening . Computers would keep track of each song listened to and pay a fraction of a cent to the copyright holders and the record labels and performers. This amount would be deposited electronically into their bank accounts when a certain time passed or when a certain dollar value was reached.

I believe this is doable but it will take a lot of money and imagination to put it in place.

Good idea. I think the biggest problem to overcome would be getting everyone to cooperate. For example, the labels who own the most popular songs would want to be cut in at a higher rate.

Everette,

The problem is indeed getting everybody to agree. for a while there were rock bands that offered their music for free to get people to their shows. There have been bands like the Grateful Dead that encouraged bootlegging of their music because they gained so many fans.

Offline, online, downloads, CD's, live performance, radio, it is all part of an overall stratagy to get attention. In subject matter and direction, production, writers, artists, musicians are just very simply trying to get attention. just like always. some people are going to find one way that works for them and the same thing might not work for the very next guy. But at the end of the day, the important part is making the kind of music you feel comfortable doing, doing it as well as you can, and getting it to people who like your product. We are writing for ourselves first and foremost. That is what matters.

Mike, you can actually talk about any type of music and any market you want to. I enjoy hearing what other people do. I am always trying to be "crystal clear" that I am "Nashville centric" because for 99% of what I am involved with are people trying to come here. But I in no way think Nashville is the center of the universe. It certainly isn't. There are many other communities outside of ours. It is just the main one I know about other than my visits to other places, and for the most part, I am involved with mostly people from other places trying to come here.
But I am the first to acknowledge innovation and when people
succeed where other's fail. and interestingly enough, most of the people who are being successful in places like Nashville are actually the ones that skirt the rules. And then make the rules fit them.

MAB

Marc, I know you well enough to know you do not think this is the center of the musical world. It's simply a hub to which many songwriters gravitate. Folks here come from all sorts of backgrounds with various dreams and goals. To borrow your percentage, 99% of your suggestions are universal. Write the best songs you can, know your audience, look at yourself objectively, etc.

I don't like using the word "rules," even though it is the right word (meaning, in our context, not laws, but a measure of what has been found to be successful). People read it and say, "well I won't follow no rules! Rules? What rules? Who made those rules? I'm a bloody genius!!! Rules are for fools." and etc.
I'm trying to train myself to recommend that folks write "close to the style" of course, people will rankle at that too. It's funny, everyone wants the magic pill that makes a hit song, but when you tell them what it is, they get mad. It's like losing weight or learning to play great guitar. It's simple...just work really hard at it.

I don't believe that a one-size-fits all subscription service is a viable option, both from the consumer and producer perspectives... but I do have high hopes for subscription services like Spotify (www.spotify.com)

I've learnt a great deal from MAB's and Mike's posts. I don't pretend to know the Nashville scene by any means, but now I have an overview when dealing with others.

The annoyance you're seeing, is coming from those that write in a particular genre, and can't understand why this paticular place should be the "gatekeeper". It's the gatekeeper, because it is the music hub of that genre. It is the filtering mechanism in regards to quality, which is defining and pushing foward, that medium.

I ( personally ) find it quite different from what I do, yet, as a musician, know that having great contacts there, I am able to offer a service, if it's required on a "player scale". In other words, if you could go anywhere, on an unlimited budget, hire the best natural players you could, any genre, where would you go ?

I think the problem lies in perception. To a professional music supervisor, I'd have to say "go to Nahville" , they've got the best, from the pickers, to the symphony orchestra, brilliant sound stages, and a techical crew which simply knows the business.

As a songwriter, blow in ? Well, that's a different story, which these fellas will tell you about.

cheers, niteshift

Hi Mike,

Many of Marc's generalizations hold up "anywhere and everywhere", especially "look at yourself objectively"...because with a little self-knowledge, most puzzles are solved ...as in answers to "how hard am I willing to work, or how much am I willing to sacrifice, to achieve my goal" and "if I make no (more) money at music, will I still make it?" When we know these answers, when we know our own hearts, life becomes very simple.

My slant on the "non-financial" parts of this thread is that many people think they have a "ocean of desire" towards a goal, but in many cases, it's just a ripple in a pond...The writer or artist becomes self-realized or actualized NOT with money or recognition, but with self clarification, imo.

BTW Mike Dunbar, say "hi" to Mike Sutcliffe for me...cheers,

Mike

I can't see this being a problem. The rate would have to be set by some government agency, just as mechanical rates are. As far as the majors looking for a higher rate than a novice, I don't see that being a good argument. If they are producing a better product, then it would stand to reason that they would get listened to much more than a novice by a ratio of 1000 to 1, so they are going to make much more money anyway. In the US now the record labels and performers get nothing for airplay, this way they would get paid.

Everett,

Every since the digital revolution really hit, about 12-15 years ago, there have been constant delegations ivolved in Congress trying to do just that. I went with an NSAI delegation in 2006. I know it looks very easy, but it just isn't. There are literally thousands of people involved. From ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, NSAI, record companies, tech companies, lawyers, industry advisors, and above all Congress and the Senate, not to mention overseas trade and restrictions, it is a non-ended litany of copeting interests, conflicts, political ramifications at every corner.
Every time some agreement would be reached, there would be a whole new rash of legal complications and things had to start over again. With elections going on, many times something would be almost agreed on, a new crop of people would come in and that would have to start pretty much over again.
Supposedly there was an agreement reached in October of last year that everyone seemed to be happy with. A new mechanical agreement was reached that pushed the rate from 9 cents to ten cents. I am not privy to the details but I have gotten some industry e-mails that give mixed reviews.It also
has a lot of the database, and payment issues that you are talking about, they are just WAY too deep for me to understand.
I don't know if it will ever be worked out to all satisfaction. Artists, writers, poets, painters, authors, etc. are all just too individualistic to ever allow themselves to be gathered under one umbrella, no matter how good it might be to them. They are too suspicious, too self focused, so you will always get those that don't want to do certain things just because that is what everyone else does. And as you see with downloading, streaming, etc. there are always college students, techno geeks, etc, that spend most of their time hacking into systems,stealing identities, and just plain throwing monkey wrenches in the works to ever totally be safe or regulated.
Sounds like a good idea that you are talking about. But people are people, and it is very difficult to corral this issue.

MAB

People issues aside, there would still be a great many technical hurdles to overcome before such an all encompassing system can become a reality. Also, no one seems to give any thought to the cost of administration...

Suppose that a $5/mo "Download Tax" makes it into legislation, I predict that at least $4.99 will be spent on figuring out who should be paid what. Proponents of a download tax always like to pretend that the division of those moneys will be a simple task, but it is not!

Keeping track of which files are sent across the internet is many magnitudes more complex than keeping track of how many tracks are sold at, say, the iTunes Store. For starters, there is no single spot on the internet where you can monitor all of the ongoing traffic. At best, you can take snapshots of what's going on at certain 'junctions'. Dividing royalties based upon the data from a single snapshot would be the equivalent of predicting traffic conditions across all of the USA by looking only at the situation over at the Brooklyn Bridge in NY.

And that's just the first of many, many technical hurdles that an all encompassing download tax would face...

Hey, Dutch Jim (I hope you don't mind me calling you that!) thanks for posting that link about that Jonathon chap. To me, that shows the new avenues the Internet has opened up to artists performing their own songs, 'cos he's a kind of funny looking fella, and would have maybe found he hard to get a record deal regardless of his talent. He had a plan and he went out and executed it.

You said putting an album on iTunes is a bad plan, and that he hadn't worked for you. I'd say analyze why it didn't work and try it again with a better plan.

I'm still developing my plan, but when I go down the iTunes route, it will be accompanied by many other things. Youtube. etc. And that doesn't mean sticking a video on there and crossing my fingers. It will be putting my best songs on there of course, but others that will get views just because of their titles and tags. Doing some covers as well is something I'll probably do and put them up. But when I say do some covers, I mean do songs where I can, hopefully, do them so well, so originally, that I will "take them" off the original artist and make them my own.

And regarding, what the thread was about in the first place, how to make money out of music these days and the excellent comments by Marc, Everett and yourself I think everyone involved in music now just has to accept there's much less money to be made now, perhaps it was the case there was just too much in the first place. But now people can get things for free, unless they've got a good disposable income, can you blame them? I like to think that the way it will work is if people do get something for free, and like it, they will then want to pay the artist for it. Legislation will not stop things be made available for free on the Internet. If I guy, say, wanted to watch an American TV programme a day after it's aired in America but a week before it has aired in his/her country, then there's places he/she can get hold of it for free on the Internet. They close the websites down, new ones up, it's a battle they, nor the music industry, can win. It can just adapt to it the best way possible.

Maybe, in the future, the only substantial revenues will come from tours and songwriting royalties, so all performing artists will want an ever larger slice of the songwriters credit, whether they deserve it or not, and the futility of the guy sending off songs to music publisher gets ever larger. So, and I say this to everyone, if you can write and perform your own material, you should become the artist and not the songwriter looking for a pitch.

Just my opinion.

Cheers Lucian

No, I said that putting your stuff up on iTunes without investing time and/or money in promotion is a bad plan. iTunes, by itself, is not going to bring people to your music. Unless you manage to get yourself featured on the front page, you'll just be a tiny spec amongst thousands of other tiny specs vying for attention.

For Another Day (my last outing), I spent all my money on the CD itself and nothing on promotion. At the time I still believed that being on a couple of sites and getting a bunch of reviews was enough to sell a bunch of copies, but reality proved to be a bit of a cold shower there.

This time around, I'm not going to make the same mistake again! Plus, I thought I'd give you a chance to skip round #1 and go straight for #2 by telling you that you have to invest in promotion as well as the music itself.

Jim,

And with promotion comes "branding." To really be successful, you need to stake out a brand among the consumers. What is a brand in the music market? It is a mark or marks or some significant thing that make the public associate the musical product with you.

Some examples of branding include: The Boss; the lips and tongue logo; Garth; the symbol of the artist formerly known as...; the King of Rock and Roll; the King of Pop; Sir Paul; Hank; The skull and roses; Hank Jr; the dirty wurlitzer of Supertramp; the Singing Brakeman; the electric 12-string of the Byrds; the OOOOH of Little Richard; or my foot

What makes you sound like you? What makes people remember you? It may not be something you like. Some artists are known for unusual looks, things that may have caused them grief as teenagers turn into distinctive brands as artists, such as Steven Tyler's big mouth, or Dolly Parton's big...talent.

Even the angry artist, or the one who sneers at the idea of "branding" still gets branded by the public. Dylan can be recognized by one name, and by his silhouette. Bono is known by his sunglasses.

Branding is often nothing more than having a distinctive, individual sound, or an unusual name. Lucian. He could become known as "Lucian." Jim, unfortunately, you'll need something other than your name to brand.

Of course, attempting to create a brand is futile unless your music backs it up. The only ticket into the game, the only magic secret, is having exceptional, memorable, excellent songs.

Hey guys,

I don't know if you've seen this, but it's an awesome manifesto for how it's possible to make a living doing music in the new digital age (and by giving it away for free, which I understand some find distasteful, but give it a shot!):

http://newmusicstrategies.com/ebook/

Also of interest may be:

http://sethgodin.typepad.com/
http://newrockstarphilosophy.com/

The first talks about branding and making connections, and the second is about how the industry is changing and what musos can do to keep up.

I personally think this is an incredibly exciting time for musicians. For the first time they don't have to bend to the whims of a label (I've been there - it really isn't pretty). They can make the music that THEY want to make and actually stand a chance of turning that into a living.

Jim mentions Jonathan Coulton (awesome, by the way - Code Monkey is an amazing piece of work). There are others:
www.bradsucks.net
frontalot.com

All these guys are making it happen independently AND by giving their music away for free. It's incredible, and it's not the only creative industry where this is happening. People giving away their primary product for free to generate interest, then making money through different avenues (gigs, merchandise, licensing, special edition CDs, soundtracks).

You're only limited by your imagination! It's a wonderfully liberating time to be involved in music and it's such a thrill to read about people doing new stuff every day.

We're about to see a new renaissance of creative expression as the dinosaurs die and the independents arrive with new and exciting art!

Love it!

At the end of every day it comes back to the very same thing.

Write or be a part of the absolute best music you can. Please yourself first and foremost.

Work to manufacture a unique, presentation of that music that represents you.

Do as much research to avoid other pitfalls that other's have made, as you can do.

Fnd a way to promote it through every single medium you can. Live, internet, videos, word of mouth, etc.

Establish yourself in local, regional, national, and international as best you can.

Repeat the process.

MAB

And, CONNECT WITH PEOPLE!

Really get to know the people that love your music. Let them get to know you.

Get to know your fellow musicians. Support them and they'll support you. Make a scene and make stuff happen.

Get to know other artists. See how you can work together on new projects (live gigs at gallery openings? Huge digital art pieces with crazy music? Music based video games?)

Maybe Harmonix beat us to that last one, but there's always room for more!

And the best thing about this whole thing is that connecting to people is REALLY FUN! People are amazing!

Yeah, absolutely. Though, branding encompasses much more than that. It's the tone of your press releases, the style of photographs you use, the look of your album covers, the clothes you wear, etc.

I definitely think about all those things. In fact, I now have a whole team of people thinking about those things - scary, I know!



I don't market myself as "Jim", but as "Jim Offerman", which I'm hoping is a bit more distinctive

I do not (yet) have as distinctive a trait as Bono's sunglasses, but I am confident that my whole artist persona is quite distinctive. People do not easily confuse me with other artists.



No argument there!

I guess my brand will be southern fried chicken in a cast iron skillet, I could go back to "Plate Of Cookies" any day though.

Jim,

I think the fact that you look like Iggy Pop, could be a cool brand. Get "Iggy With it!"

MAB

Marc, maybe you should have said a younger, much better looking version of Iggy Pop. Jim is too nice of a guy to insult like that.

(Just in case Iggy Pop is lurking here: Sorry man, no offense intended.)

LOL!

Somehow I doubt that Iggy fans would be attracted to my particular style of music. Plus, I keep my shirt on during shows.

I made an exception once, when some dimwit poured out a coke over my keyboard and the shirt I had on was the only thing near that could soak it all up; since that show I make a habit of bringing along a towel... if not for myself, then for the keyboard!

Hey, as weird as it sounds, I actually kind of meant it as a compliment. Have you SEEN Iggy Pop? This guy has taken like every drug on earth, probably a pin cushion for heroin needles and he walks around without a shirt and is RIPPED! The guy has the same body now as twenty years ago. Really weird. Look at him next to Keith Richards or even Amy Whino.Man this guy is like the Charles Atlas of drugged out poster boys for abuse.
Jim, if that is your picture you have that same facial structure, kind of chiseled features. That was what I was talking about, kind of the guy us old fat guys wish we were.
Our band in the 80's were playing a huge college in Alabama and kept noticing channels on our PA shorting out. This was a HUGE Board we were using. It was outside and there were like a sea of people there. Finally we saw through the crowd to where our sound man and two roadies were in a fight with some of the college kids. They had been pouring beer into our board and shorting out everything. Really makes you want to kill somebody. I don't know that we ever got paid back for that. We had a law suit for years.

MAB

The picture is me, alright! One of the more unfortunate features of my "brand"

Now, if only I was as ripped as Iggy as well...

ps: Thanks for the compliment, MAB!

Folk is really yesterday's pop... if songs were not popular they wouldn't survive for several hundred years before they were written down.. "Fanny Blair" would be a fine example... about a man hung for child molesting in 1795.. belived to be innocent by most at the time... The song was first recorded as written down some 50 years after the event.... How many traditional songs are there that fit that category? They didn't survive just because there was nothing else to sing.... but because they were popular...

I see so many folks trying to be "big"... folk who believe that just doing or making a living... is failure because they are not big.... or they are so busy comparing themselves to the freaks of nature that have more talent than any one person deserves ...

I find it sad they cannot take pleasure in doing for the sake of doing knowing they are doing the best they can, and cannot take pleasure knowing they make others happy for doing what they do.

Can they exist side by side?... can any completly different neighbours exist happily side by side?... sure if they work at it and respect each others differences.

cheers

I tooled around with music before the net trying out a few different styles. Some better then others.
I came to the internet to learn more about different styles.
Blending them together to see if I can make them listenable.
I can not do much outside of a given style that is simply played and constucted.
So I hash and flim flam out different influences together so I can do that more interesting, prose oriented, professional cd I was out to do to begin with. Trying to catch up with the knowledge so the smallest influence on those handful of recordings I intend to stand on are not wasted.
Seconds count in a song.

Usually on the net at sites I notice that unless someone has a few songs in a docea and considers themselves learned, looking for that site to settle in to that they are not laughed off on, they are considered less serious.

I am typically with a younger, more impressionable genre then many on here, even though I post in the general pop/rock category, since I am out to learn different influences in that context, though non-commercial..
I only want to make a recording of what best represents me.
There are a lot of "professional recordings" I would not post giving mine away.

I have that more formidible cd I would like to do.
At the same time, there seems to be more passion in the less organized type of music that most listners would reject.

So you pose a good topic.

Music is not math.

I originally wanted to pick up the instrument as a release and for my musician friends that inspired me.

But there is so many avenues and cross turns once it becomes more then something of a release and shtick.

Hi John,

That article didn't surprise me at all, The internet is not a cash cow for music sales ..period. Marc is right on when he says all musicians and artists are going to have to create other streams of income and learn to work for a lot less in the current environment.

Yes there are a few success stories and the so called experts, who normally have something to gain in your believing it is possible, are quick to point them out. What they fail to point out is, that for the couple success stories they are highlighting, there are at least 100,000 very good musicians and artists who are wandering aimlessly around the internet looking for directions to the Highway of success.

The internet is a great sounding board, it is a great way to have your efforts evaluated by the world wide market, it is a fantastic way to get exposure to a world wide audience and gather a following much quicker than ever before, however statistics gathered by unbiased consumer advocates, show time and time again the void in the new world order is in distribution and sales, mostly sales.

They point out what we all already know, too much free music, piracy, file sharing, and the voodoo stigma that's attached to putting your credit card information on the internet all contribute to the difficulties of selling music on the net.
The new industry is trying to combat all these things in what seems to be a fruitless effort. I believe it will be at least 7 to 10 years before we see the internet as a viable solution to sales and distribution.

These are things that we can not control nor can we afford to spend time worrying about. Artists ask time and time again, how can they continue to invest thousand of dollars into making CD's that don't sell, I don't have an answer for that, but maybe the eventual reality will be , don't make CD's. Do single sales, digital delivery only, and you can cut your expenses drastically.
Maybe the answer is what Radiohead did with their last project, allow everyone to download the entire CD digitally through your website, and ask for donations if they liked it. If you only liked 2 or 3 songs, then donate 2 or 3 dollars, or a dollar, or .50 cents, donate what ever you thought it was worth, if you thought it was worth nothing then so be it. I can tell you judging from the number of downloads, and the average donation of $4 per transaction they probably grossed $800,000. That's a lot more money than they ever saw at EMI ( who they were still in debt to when they left ), and when you factor in the fact that they didn't have to print a cover, buy CD's, jewel cases, print a label, and an insert, and they didn't have to pay to ship it to the open market, a lot of that $800,000 was pure profit. Now they benefited a lot from the publicity that EMI paid for over the years, and the average unknown won't probably see those kinds of figures, but that case points out that those who can be innovative can still find a way to make a pretty good living via the internet.

The best thing you can do as a songwriter is keep working at writing a great song, it's not good enough to be pretty good in this business. It's all about writing a great song. If you can write one great song, every other song you ever wrote will be come a lot better in the eyes of the industry and the public.

Most of us don't write songs to become rich, we do it because it's in our blood , it's what we do. Many of us would find great satisfaction in just making an average living making music and knowing that the music we made had an effect on the lives of others in some way, shape,or manner.

That's what it's all about.

Billy

This one's for Jim...

Iggy Pop Only One Allowed In Grocery Store Shirtless

ROFL! Thanks Mark!

And the moral of this picture? If you don't want to have your ass checked out by creepy white guys, KEEP YOUR FRIGGIN' SHIRT ON!