I'm a lyricist. Should all lines in all the verses have about the same number of syllables? I've heard conflicting stories about this. Can the Bridge have a different syllable count from the verses? Also, sometimes I have a different rhyming scheme in the chorus and in the Bridge; that is different than in the verses. I need your expert advice. Occasionally, I might add an extra line in a verse or Bridge. Does this through the whole song off?
Thanks.

If verses share the same melody, then you would expect the line by line comparison of syllables (line 1 in verse 1 be about the same in line 1, verse 2 and etc.....). Having similar syllable counts in each line in a single verse can me more open to interpretation. The syllable count will influence the melody, the chord selection and all that. In general, good phrasing calls out for similar syllable count -- but I break that guideline all the time.

Since you want variety in a song, I would expect the syllable count and rhyming scheme to be varied between the verses, choruses and bridge.

There are not hard and fast rules. In Hey, Hey; I was strict in verse 1 with 5 syllables per line and then changed it up in the other verses. I also changed the rhyme scheme in the chorus.



The bottom line: read it out loud in a conversational manner. If it flows well, then it is probably OK. Hope this helps a little,

Kevin

You honestly can't tell until the whole thing is put to music. I've seen the oddest looking line combinations on paper come out well when put to music and the straightest ones come off sounding out of place.

A good rule is that sections should be similar within the section but don't have to match the other sections. Let me explain:

I was working through a song last night that had between 7 and 9 syllables per line in the verses and 4-5 in the chorus. Both sections had 4 lines each.

You can also vary the sylables for certain effects, say a verse with two lines of 5 syl. and a third line of 8 syl. (for example). Its all about how it meshes with the music.

There are two key things to remember - 1) The more you vary the length of the lines, the more challenging it is to put to music and sing and 2)Have a reason for changing the line length, don't do it because you couldn't think of something better.

I would make sure that if you have a cowriter who is putting your lyrics to music, you and he/she communicate regularly about what is working and what is not and you rewrite any sections which sound awkward or forced.

Try speaking them out loud too, as Kevin said, thats excellent advice. If you want to try something different (and you have music) have someone sing along with the track. If they can't sing along after a couple of trys then the phrasing may be awkward.

I realize much of this has to do with having some music under your lyrics, but it is a song after all :-)

Kevin and John,

Thanks so much for your helpful comments. It has helped me. Since I'm not a musician, I don't know exactly what one would need from me. You've made it much clearer.

Sylvia,

If you are interested in a certain genre, print out your favorite songs from that genre and do the syllable counts for the verses, choruses and bridges. See how the singer stretches certain parts out via held notes and stuff like that.

Or write lyrics that match the melody of songs you like (it is called ghost writing). That will help you a lot, I believe.
Just don't tell the potential composers what song you did the ghost write to (ha, ha).

Kevin

My first rule of songwriting: Ignore all rules.

Which means, of course, is that you follow all the rules.

Hey Sylvia!

I'd say each part of the structure should repeat in the same way (rule for memorability) but every rule can tolerate a few exceptions (and what you say should always prevail on a mere count of syllables).

It's a rythmical thing. You can always tie 2 (or more) notes into just one, or divide a rhythmic value into several parts. The result is always a variation of the same rhythm, though. We just have to be careful about not writing a 'different' rhythm.

And of course not overdoing the trick. A good line can be 'reproduced' with a different number of syllables, but I'd say 1 or 2 (more or less) is a maximum (and should always depend on the tempo and how difficult it is to sing some particular words).

I've also noticed that the more songs I write, the less I have to ask myself the question. Of course, I always write against a pattern, so I just sing the line and 'see' if it works. it usually does, as if something in the brain had internalized the pattern. When it doesn't click, it's usually a case of too many fast syllables at one point.

hope some of it helps. just my 2 cents

Yann

Perhaps a better way of explaining it to a non musician is that it should meter.......in other words it should fit an understandable pattern and be able to be sung or recited to the beat and rhythm of the melody and pattern. Whilst you may not at this stage have any melody for your words you must be aware of an overall structure and how your words will fit it. There are many different structures and rhyming patterns to adopt but they all obey the meter rule.
Whilst overly long lines can be crammed in to fit the meter and short lines can be stretched out to fit this can sound clunky and make a song hard to sing. Syllable counting is OK but can make songs sound robotic. You have to use judgement and come up with a compromise sometimes in between cramming and stretching.
The tip I would give is that you should be able to recite like a poem your lyrics in a natural way without them sounding out of kilter.
One way to improve this understanding is to take a set of lyrics or melody from a hit song in the style you like and use it as a template then write your own lyrics to replace these to match this song. You can of course then sing the song using your alternative lyrics to see if it fits.
You can also try singing any lyrics you have written to see if they will fit a melody from a hit song.

Never count syllables. You have to be able to feel it. When a syllable is sung, it could occupy a half a beat or two beats depending on how we phrase the word when we speak and how the song is sung.

When you write lyrics, you have to have a rhythm or beat in your head and write words that fit. Better be tapping your foot to the rhythm in your head when you are writing.

You cannot as a rule vary the number of lines in the verses or the chorus (no doubt there are exceptions for when you are working closely with a musician). However the bridge, chorus and verses are distinct parts of the song and do not have to match each other - in fact they may benefit from being different. e.g. you may hear songs that have rapid fire lyrics in the verses and long stretched out lyrics in the verse to distinguish the parts and make the song interesting.

IMHO a person who is tone deaf can write lyrics but a person who does not have rhythm (can't dance to the music!) should write prose instead.

It is curious --- On its face one would think that they should all be the same but there are exceptions. The key is singability in relation to the music/melody.

If one looks at some of Taylor Swift's lyrics on paper without the music - they look like they would never work but they certainly do. I do believe she writes the lyrics and music together.

Tom

Good Mornin' Sylvia and fellow JPFr's:

Glad your brought this up, Sylvia and you've had some great replies. (Welcome to JPF... where opinions abound... LOL!)

In the final analysis, no matter how a song is structured, the only thing that matters is how the entire package sounds. We all need to understand the "rules" but if one writes songs as one would paint "by the numbers"... the result is often way too mechanical. Here's my advice:

1. Try to write something you are familiar with. Tell a story.

2. Create a melody that lingers in the mind of the listener.

3. Write as naturally as possible. Make each line believeable.

4. Bend the rules or even break them if the song demands it.

5. Please yourself first 'cause you're not gonna please everyone.

6. Have fun! When it's no longer fun, come back to it later.

Good luck with your musical endeavors.

Dave

On the subject of rules and people telling you to ignore them:

A famous jazz musician once said (and I forget who):

Learn all the rules (in his case scales and chords but I digress) and practice them until they're second nature. Then, forget all that sh*t and just play (write in our case).

You have to know the rules in order to break them.

in general yes, but if you hadn't used the word about I would have said no

yes yes yes

That is good and can make the song more interesting.

A bridge should be as long as it needs to be and will normally be different in structure to verses and chorus so you can do what you like with it. Extra line in a verse? It depends, often an extra line at the end of a verse is repeated for emphasis.

I would recommend posting your questions on the Songwriting Board

Of course the best way to learn how to write good lyrics and improve your skills is to learn the basics of music theory and the ability to play an instrument to even a basic standard would also help. IMHO anyone who does not know the basics about music composition and song construction is at a huge disadvantage when attempting writing lyrics. Without this knowledge MOST PEOPLE are considered as just poets.
Todays pop music is mostly production, rhythm and performance driven. Lyrics in a lot of songs are relatively unimportant.
To truly master the art of songwriting you must at least have an understanding and working knowledge of how ALL the elements are put together.

I'd suggest chasing down at least one or two of these books. They're an invaluable resource for lyrics writers.

Songwriting: Essential Guide to Lyric Form and Structure (Pat Pattison)
Songwriting: Essential Guide to Rhyming (Pat Pattison)
Lyrics: Writing Better Words for Your Songs (Rikky Rooksby)
Songwriting for Dummies (Peterik, Austin, Bickford)

Plenty of others exist, but these are excellent starters.

A simple Google search also brings up loads of relevant links regarding lyrics.
Here are two good ones.

http://www.songlyricist.com/lyricorpoem.htm
http://www.robinfrederick.com/write.html
Donna

Think of it this way. Each line of the verse will (almost always) have the same amount of music in it. You can play more notes, but you have to play them faster to get them all in.

(There are 100 exceptions to everything, but in the kind of songwriting you see on these boards, the following is almost always true):

A verse will typically be four lines of two bars each. Two bars of four beats each, meaning the musicians will be playing eight beats per line.

But you don't have to sing eight beats. And the beats don't have to be even. You could sing a word that only takes up half a beat -- you could extend a word and sing it for one-and-a-half beats. Remember, a singer can sing one word for a full eight beats.

It's hard to think in those terms when you are just writing words, without music. This is where it is helpful for a lyricist to know something about how the composer thinks. If you write fewer words or syllables in a line, those words or syllables will be longer notes, or there will be more "space" for a few beats of just music.

What's important is that you write a rhythmic pattern for those four lines, that will repeat when you get to the next four lines (verse), so the musicians will play the same thing. Your chorus will be different and your bridge will be different.

Here is a song that illustrates the futility of counting syllables. I am guessing that various lines in this song vary from one syllable to 10 or more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9jf995C55w

Thanks everyone. I may be more confused than ever. No one knows exactly what makes a good song. There have been songs with lousy lyrics that were hits and songs with great lyrics that were flops and vice versa. There were songs with a great melody that were flops and songs with a lousy melody that were hits and vice versa.

One never knows.

The easiest way to approach this is remember three rules:

#1. Reality based.
(The majority of hit songs are based around emotions and visuals that actually have happened to the singer or observations on people he or she has seen. The more detail oriented the better.)

#2. Conversational in tone.
If you strip the music out, it sounds like a one on one conversation you are having with the listener. Because you are.

#3. Great melodic hook.
The hook is very clearly defined and comes around about every 30 seconds to "let the listener become part of the song." The more singable the better.


If you will observe this, things like length of lines and counting syllables fall into place easier. Songs have to be relatable, where other people hook into them and want to hear them over and over. The more obscure the message, the harder to follow melodicially or rhythmically, the faster the audience tends to tune out.

KISS
Keep it simple songwriter.

MAB