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Posted By: John Lawrence Schick Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/09/21 06:23 PM
Music business is a little slow the last two months. Only 10 placements in two month. And this last month only 3. So what to do when things slow down? I turn to my first love - classical piano. I don't care about placments when I'm composing serious music. It's just joyful - even though the music is melancholy. Melancholy joyful, one of my favorite moods...

So here's my work this weekend. The first song on the webpage. Nocturne in Blue: https://johnlarenceschick.com/home

Best, John smile
Posted By: JAPOV Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/09/21 11:01 PM
I love it when a melody keeps me guessing!
NICE John smile
I am curious John, as a creative exercise, if you could compose some short pieces "in the style of" famous composers?

I think it would make for a fun video compilation for one of our artist interviews. I approached a well known Instrumentalist (kind of a household name in their genre) but he thought it would be too difficult on his instrument. Do you think you could take a crack at it John? If it was fun it might be a viral video.
Originally Posted by JAPOV
I love it when a melody keeps me guessing!
NICE John smile


Thanks JAPOV! Yes, never quite sure where the melody is going myself. laugh

Best, John smile
Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
I am curious John, as a creative exercise, if you could compose some short pieces "in the style of" famous composers?

I think it would make for a fun video compilation for one of our artist interviews. I approached a well known Instrumentalist (kind of a household name in their genre) but he thought it would be too difficult on his instrument. Do you think you could take a crack at it John? If it was fun it might be a viral video.


Yes, I've already composed about 15-20 piano solos in the style of the Greats. I posted three of them on my website. In the order on my website: https://johnlarenceschick.com/home #3 In the Style of Mozart #4 In the Style of Gershwin #5 In the Style of Bach.

Best, John smile
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/10/21 12:00 PM
John.

The main reason the business has slowed down has been before the Pandemic, but the pandemic has increased the bottleneck for everything. All productions slowed down or stopped. More and more people, even at the top of the heap, have had their materials slowed down or completely stopped as recording, production promotions, have all slowed or stopped as well. And there will be a HUGE backlog of things to be processed for a while.

In the performance venues, tours, all the side of the live industry, which the recording side is made to promote, have slowed, stopped or in many cases, stopped forever. So I would expect some slow growth or even declines for some time, even possibly years. And as more and more have gone to an online format, the amount of songs, writers, artists, etc. have increased ten, twenty or even thirty times. So the combination of more and more people doing this, more product out there, and less and less venues or avenues for it, have created a huge imbalance in the supply and demand.

What we've seen on the front lines of the industry have now spread to the backlines or supply lines in the industry. Just part of the world as far as what has gone to an online format. Good luck though.
MAB
Posted By: Sunset Poet Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/10/21 12:09 PM
Pretty
Originally Posted by Sunset Poet
Pretty


Thank you Sunset!

Best, John smile
Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
John.

The main reason the business has slowed down has been before the Pandemic, but the pandemic has increased the bottleneck for everything. All productions slowed down or stopped. More and more people, even at the top of the heap, have had their materials slowed down or completely stopped as recording, production promotions, have all slowed or stopped as well. And there will be a HUGE backlog of things to be processed for a while.

In the performance venues, tours, all the side of the live industry, which the recording side is made to promote, have slowed, stopped or in many cases, stopped forever. So I would expect some slow growth or even declines for some time, even possibly years. And as more and more have gone to an online format, the amount of songs, writers, artists, etc. have increased ten, twenty or even thirty times. So the combination of more and more people doing this, more product out there, and less and less venues or avenues for it, have created a huge imbalance in the supply and demand.

What we've seen on the front lines of the industry have now spread to the backlines or supply lines in the industry. Just part of the world as far as what has gone to an online format. Good luck though.
MAB

I agree Marc. My Jan & Feb placements were up, but March & April not so good. Thats how its been the last year up one month, little the next. Also, I think clients are behind in filling out cue sheets. Many of my cue sheets coming in are from airings a year ago (or more). Anyway, I take it for what it is. Im thinking musicians are changing clothes too, since the live performances have dwindled. Maybe more are heading into the TV/ film realm, which makes it even more competitive. So be it!

Best, John smile
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/10/21 06:49 PM
Well almost all musicians and writers have headed to the online world as they don't really have any choice. So yes, it will be much more competitive going forward.
Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Well almost all musicians and writers have headed to the online world as they don't really have any choice. So yes, it will be much more competitive going forward.


So we should be even more proud of our accomplishments knowing there's a lot more competition out there. laugh Let the chips fall where they may. I am glad my perfoming days are behind me. When I was in my twenties, this area was booming with bands. Every bar, tavern, resort had bands most days of the week. The venues would sign bands up a year ahead for New Years Eve. Today, very few venues use "live" entertainment. Mount Airy Casino Resort still has entertainment. But they don't use locals.The Dear Head Inn is still popular for jazz performers. Other than that, I wouldn't know where to go to see "live" entertainment. Sad... but it is what it is...

Oh, I'm sure wedding receptions still use bands. Though I don't know where those bands come from.

John smile
Posted By: niteshift Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/11/21 01:10 AM
Hey John,

Placements are down because TV/film production is down. Restrictions in place can make it very difficult to produce media. Sometimes it's just impossible.

Just had the Survivor series return to Fiji ( US crew ) as they are all isolated in one place.

Ms Rock Chic had a film shoot cancelled, as they wouldn't let the guy pull the dolly. Huh ??

Also, sound studios and production studios are "air locked" making life difficult.

Keep writing John, I bet you'll do your best work yet and will surprise yourself ! smile

cheers, niteshift
Originally Posted by niteshift
Hey John,

Placements are down because TV/film production is down. Restrictions in place can make it very difficult to produce media. Sometimes it's just impossible.

Just had the Survivor series return to Fiji ( US crew ) as they are all isolated in one place.

Ms Rock Chic had a film shoot cancelled, as they wouldn't let the guy pull the dolly. Huh ??

Also, sound studios and production studios are "air locked" making life difficult.

Keep writing John, I bet you'll do your best work yet and will surprise yourself ! smile

cheers, niteshift


Good points Nite!

Best, John smile
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/11/21 12:29 PM
John,

I have watched so many things hit the "live industry" even before the pandemic, that has driven it nearly into the ground.

In the 80's, karaoke came in and became a huge factor in dialing back live bands, duos, or singles. Let the crowd be the show.

That led to Karaoke contests, which became a huge money deal when American Idol and the voice "Legitimized Kareoke" nights. Movies, TV shows, etc. exploded celebrating the amateur singers in the population.

Contests became a huge deal in every type of entertainment, thereby cutting down the nights where professionals could actually make any money. And since there were more people now doing it, (The Internet exploded with performers) the amount of money that any venue would offer was nothing or next to nothing.

The cost of liability insurance, drunk driving arrests, increased competition, health and other regulations, all drove the cost of doing business up and the ability to pay for entertainment down.

The costs of going out increased by huge multiples, for average families or individuals, so it became fewer and farther between, and the threat of losing your liscence, your car, insurance, etc, by DUI arrests for even a small amount of alcohol in a system, weeded out many people.

Subscription services or streaming with constant music, replacing live music. ANd people who were losing the connection with the "live" context in the first place.

The general population who can get endless music on their computers, easy access even from the major artists.

Costs of concert tickets, etc. going out.

Societal upheaval, causing rips in the entire culture Going out to dinner to have a group of people surround and attack cars, assault people at resturants, mayhem and riots, property and physical destruction, will have an overall effect on venues, entertainers, and ability to conduct music.

The latest thing that had happened before the pandemic was venue after venue being sued by ASCAP, BMI and SESAC, for venues lacking proper payments for liscencing music. As money has dissapeared in other sections due to streaming, the PRO's have tried to make it up by going after many places, mostly smaller Mom and Pop venues, many of which are barely hanging on to begin with. If it comes down to paying employees, food and alcohol costs, liability insurance, rent, water, etc. the last thing to be paid is going to be entertainers. And if you are letting them play original music, paying them for that through increased fees is not even on the radar screen. So venue after venue have dropped paying the PRO's one by one. Again, since there are less and less venues and more and more writer/artists, the ability to get paid slowly ebbs away and dissapears.

Similar things are going to happen in television and film. As more go to alternative venues, productions, and more content is added, viewership gets more and more displaced, and spread out, the payments for that type of music will decline as well. Again, more people putting more and more product into the pipeline, different production companies, the less and less money they are going to pay.

Supply and demand never stops. More supply, more dissipated damand, and the amount of money paid is going to decline. Same as streaming has done. Just a matter of time.

So, as I said, I unforunately believe that we are headed for a time when all, or most of music is completely free. It;s something that all writers have to prepare for. A sad but true sign of the times.

MAB
Posted By: JAPOV Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/11/21 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by Marc Barnette


The latest thing that had happened before the pandemic was venue after venue being sued by ASCAP, BMI and SESAC, for venues lacking proper payments for liscencing music. As money has dissapeared in other sections due to streaming, the PRO's have tried to make it up by going after many places, mostly smaller Mom and Pop venues, many of which are barely hanging on to begin with. If it comes down to paying employees, food and alcohol costs, liability insurance, rent, water, etc. the last thing to be paid is going to be entertainers. And if you are letting them play original music, paying them for that through increased fees is not even on the radar screen. So venue after venue have dropped paying the PRO's one by one. Again, since there are less and less venues and more and more writer/artists, the ability to get paid slowly ebbs away and dissapears.

MAB


Are you saying that some bands/venues have been legally and monetarily discouraged from performing "covers"? That's just sick! What's next... outlaw music instruments?

Money screws EVERYTHING up!
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/12/21 11:42 AM
It's business. When you are a smaller venue, withall of the things that are involved in the costs of doing business as well as the increased competition, not to mention what has happened to the venues during pandemics, paying what often seem to be exorbinant rates for the use of music is an economic decision. They can't afford it. They will go to a music subscription service. Contrary to popular belief, live music is not as essential as it once was. Like everything else, music is in the background of our lives now, not in the foreground. And it's not just covers, it's originals as well. It's any live music. If you have live music, you have to pay BMI/ASCAP/SESAC, liscencing fees, which often are arbitrarily decided on. Venues resturants, bars, pubs, clubs, etc, are not on the profit margins most people think they are.

So having live music at all is being phased out in many places. But again, this has happened long before the Pandemic. This has been something happening for well over 20 years. BAck when I was really performing a lot and then phasing into my teaching phase of my career, I started being at many of the "final live shows" of venues that had been around for a long time. Meeting with managers, owners, etc. were always financial considerations. They were not making as much money, indeed, many losing money. On many occasions, I was brought in as a "last gasp" of some venues, thinking that I would bring some extra business (which did happen at times) or have some special "magic" (I didn't) to inject life into some place. I did many songwriters workshops and shows in some resturant bar, bring in two or three dozen people, who ate, drank, and had a good time, making the venue good money for that day or days. Then to find out they closed a few days or weeks later, because that was the last gasp.

The present lackadasical attitude of the general public in many areas toward live music is pretty interesting. It's just not that big a deal anymore. There are pockets of course, was just in Florida,where things are opening back up and pretty active. But in many places, audience numbers have been down even before the Pandemic. There are just a lot of competing factors for the consumer dollar now. And the Internet has brought endless choices to people's home computers and phones. They just don't place the same priorities on it.

As far as outlawing music instruments, while that's not happening, another segment of the culture that has taken enormous hits due to the Internet are brick and mortar music stores. They are passing into history too, as people go to more online purchasing. Nashville is down to two or three left, with most of the rest closing left and right.

So in all of this, I don't know that it's MONEY that screws everything up. In regard to music, it's the LACK of money that is screwing everything up.

MAB
In the 80's, karaoke came in and became a huge factor in dialing back live bands, duos, or singles. Let the crowd be the show.

Oh yeah Marc! I remember the decrease in band gigs then. Even the 70s, venues were starting to use DJs instead of bands. Hire one DJ to hype the crowd up and pump-out music. Much cheaper than hiring a band. I also noticed starting in the late 70s, duos and single acts were replacing 4 & 5 piece bands. The Music business has always been a changing phenomenon. Well, maybe not a phenomenon, its all about cost efficiency and profits. Personally, Id prefer those Tin Pan Alley days ha, ha.

[Linked Image]

John smile
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/12/21 04:05 PM
Yep, me too John ,Hey, you ought to try to book a band I perform with from time to time. 13 peice full R&B horn band. Chicago, Blood Sweat and Tears, Ides of March, Joe Cocker, Van Morrison, Otis Redding. Ray Charles, etc. Try to book that thing these days. LOL!
It's why we play once a year whether we have to or not!

MAB
Would they do a gratis performance Marc? Or maybe they'd work for their dinner. As long as they only order the specials. laugh Hey, maybe that will be the new normal - work for food.

John smile
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/12/21 09:17 PM
LOL! By the time you consider that half of the horn section lives in another state, Kentucky, travel costs, food, time away from other work that might pay more, eveyrone is about playing gratis as it is, even by being paid, And when you toss in one tune up rehearsal, you're pretty much in the hole.

It's like that old joke. "Only a musician would cram $3000 worth of gear into a $2000 car, drive 500 miles to pay a gig that paid $100."

Not far from the truth. Now the normal is you still work for food, but you are the one cooking it, serving it to the patrons, cleaning up afterward. Yeah, the music business. Ain't it glamorus. If we could only figure out how to turn it into a pyramid scheme, with the new people coming into the business, being forced to pay for the people who have been there a long time. Hey, they want to get into this. I'd like that one.

The first half of your career you try to figure out who to sleep with to get INTO the music business.
The second half of your career, you're trying to figure out who to sleep with to get OUT of the music business.
Posted By: JAPOV Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/14/21 05:57 AM
Just born 60yrs too late... There will never be another Buddy Holly!
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/14/21 09:52 PM
I've always been struck by the fact that if you go back in time, to the days of Buddy Holly, Chuck Berry, Hank Williams, etc. you found that they would be out on the weekends traveling hundreds of miles, with a bass guitar strapped to the top of a station wagon,driving all over, trying to get to some radio station to do some interview so that people would come out to the dance on the weekend. And make barely enough to make all their ends meet. Always some producer, manager, agent, record lable, publisher, etc, made most of the money and contolled what they did. And they never recieved what they had earned. And much of what they did earn is still in some form of legal action today.

60 years later, and every musician is out there trying to navigate the millions of miles of the Internet, to scrape together enough gigs or interest to get people to come out and see them, possibly buy some form of product, and trying to develop an audience, often not even making enough to make ends meet. And internet service providers, and other platforms, make the majority of the money and control what they do. And they rarely make the money they've earned.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

MAB
Posted By: JAPOV Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/14/21 10:56 PM
Oh, come on Marc... The "music industry" is not that old. Buddy Holly and the Crickets were recording in a garage back when producers were still beating the bushes looking for opportunities to make money. Now, you can't get a producer's attention without money... Travel has always been part of the equation lol.

I could be wrong... but... the way I see it, music has always been one of those things that musicians look at an say, "Well, if he can do it so can I." So, it simply didn't take very long for the market to become saturated with both producers and musicians. The biggest change I see today is musicians becoming their own producers.
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/17/21 12:24 PM
Tony, I think you need to do a little historical research. The term "Payola" came from "Pay and Victrola." They were having pay to play problems in the 20's and 30's. It got really bad in the 50's with Allen Freed, but there has always been politics and money involved in music. But the point (you always seem to have a problem with that) is that musicians, artists, writers, are always having to go to extrodinary lengths to get themselves and their music heard, which anyone who has ever had to travel any length of time and end up making virtually no money will know, basically ANYBODY who has ever done music.

Having anything that actually pays off in music is a rarity, and the exception, not the rule. And it's always been that way. Now the platforms are the ones making the money. It always takes money to make money. And in music, it takes money to make no money. That's the rule. You're lucky to just not go broke.

MAB
Posted By: JAPOV Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/17/21 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
It always takes money to make money. And in music, it takes money to make no money. That's the rule. You're lucky to just not go broke.MAB


Lol... So, do we agree that, historically, money has always been the problem?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_oldest_living_people
These folks would certainly argue the "birth of the entertainment industry" with you lol... In 1913 Henry Ford was mass producing the Model T, and just think, by the 1950's we had the Chevy, Buddy Holly, and Elvis on color TV. By 1964 we had the Beatles, the Ford Mustang, FM stereo radio, and most folks finally had indoor plumbing. All of our Great Grandparents lived through that Marc, it really wasn't so long ago... The whole world has changed drastically in just the last 100yrs, and it's not hard to see that it has all been profit driven by those with the capital to do so.
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/18/21 01:29 PM
Nope. In music, to most songwriters, it's the LACK of making money that is the problem. Money is the nessasary evil in life. Everyone has to eat, has to live, and money is part of that. Are their greedy people, of course, businesses that thrive on other people's labor, sure. There are countries that have tried the "equalization" of everything, Cuba, USSR, China, and that didnt' work out too well. They started adopting capitialist processes and they are some of the richest countries on earth now. And have some of the worst poverty in existence.

I'm just not a "blamer" I don't sit around blaming this or that. I'm a realist and take it as it is. Not a thing I, or you can do about it. But everyone is able to donate whatever they want to the Govt. or charities, or whatever. If money is a problem, give it away.

In music, there are always a few people at the top and most never get there. There are also imaginitve people who break molds and find their own niches' and are able to make the system working for them. But it takes money to make money and people that get in on the ground floor of anything are going to be the ones to set the rules. But has money played a part in it? Absolutely. All part of it. Part of life.

MAB
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/18/21 01:38 PM
Hey Tony, check your PM.
Posted By: JAPOV Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/18/21 03:17 PM
Well, realistically... I do tend to assign blame lol. It's not difficult to understand that those who are successful at "anything" are going to manipulate the system to protect their assets; especially anyone or anything media related. Public address is a very powerful and influential tool....

You know how much I love arguing with you Marc! I think I'll stick a pin in this one for a while wink
Posted By: Craig Allen Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/19/21 01:47 PM
Seems that YouTube (Google) has developed a Tik Tok style application that takes any video youve put on YouTube and makes it available to everyone who has the ap. I guess the result is, Google can take your music and allow users of this tik tok like ap to make short videos with your music. Who makes money with this ability? Yep, Google, not you. Theres an opt out for this, and of course, Ive read that its time consuming. Id bet sometime within the next few years, Google will be persuaded to make it a little easier to opt out so your music isnt used for any Tom, Dick, or Harrys dog (baby, vacation, etc.) video implanted with your song in the background.
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/19/21 04:24 PM
Craig,

The Internet platforms have taken the place of the Record labels, managers, agents, lawyers, etc. that have always gotten the lions share of the money involved with music or any creative endeavor. It's a catch 22. In order to get your music OUT THERE, you have to go to the ISP's, like GOOGLE, FACEBOOK, SPOITIFY, PANDORA, ETC. who make great claims about how much they pay out, but not songwriters or creators at all ever really see much of that money and never will. If you are quite frankly the window everyone has to use for access to the general public, you have no choice. And one of the things that have been the "great equalizer" or "Great destroyer" of the industry, (and extends to books, articles, blogs, art, photography, etc.) is the INTERNET.WE all have to use them, and from the days of flie sharing, illegal downloading, even into today, you can't monetize FREE. And most people get all their music for free or vastly reduced rates for streaming. And the goal posts continue to get moved as to how many streams (and for how long people have to listen to a song to qualify as a stream) are needed to qualify for payment.

Tik Tok is just the latest platform, and there will be more. It;s the equivalent of the HOLLYWOOD studio system of the 30's and 40's. Hollywood studios owned all the equipment to make movies, the back lots and real estate to make them. the contracts on every actor, every director, every camera man, script writer, make up person, grip, Union worker, craft services, truck drivers, etc. that made the movies, the publicity departments to promote the movies, and the theaters to show the movies. In the 50's television starts and the studios branched into those, then when they broke the studios up in the 60's theu still had tentacles into every facet of those industries Same is said for the modern Internet platforms. These people are not stupid, and if successful people break through, they usually sell out to those entities at one time or another.
We're currently seeing the major icon writer/artists like Bob Dylan, Stevie Nicks, Paul Simon, etc, selling all their song cataloges because they are getting the end of the money that will be in music. And there will be new entities that come along that will facilitate music, and creative work, and those will be owned by these same people.

"Meet the new boss...Same as the OLD BOSS." Pretty appropriate.

MAB
Posted By: Craig Allen Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/19/21 05:26 PM
Seems the famed catalogues are sucking the air out of music for national/regional commercials. And most of the songs dont fit the product to my mind (or ear). All you hear are very familiar songs from the radio only days accompanying Volvo, Geico, what have you, commercials. Even if you have the master and all the rights to a song, unless its a familiar tune playing to the generation targeted, it wont be bought for TV use now. As far as buying music, Im in that category - the last album I bought was Bridge Over Troubled Waters and it cost me $12. I think you can stream on Sputterfy for $9 a month anything you want to hear all day long. Thanks for the insights, MAB (and others here). All interesting perspectives. The big boys and gals, Sony, Warner, etc. do employ lots of people tho.
A strange ASCAP phenomenon. So far this year there has been two domestic and two International royalty payouts. In the past, the domestic was always much more than the International. This year the International is twice as much as the domestic. Curious as to the meaning of this. International royalties have never been so high. Though I'm not complaining...

John smile
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/20/21 11:49 AM
The commercial usage of songs is "AIR OF FAMILIARITY." If you have a product that is targeted to a certain demographic, you will use the music most familiar to that demographic. Have an $80,000 truck, you are going to use the music that the 35-50 year old demographic are going to embrace. That of 20-30 years ago that was on the radio. Same with the middle age women and female rock songs of Sherryl Crowe or Heart.

So the Dylan, Fleetwood Mac, demographic will be heard everywhere. Sometimes it creates demand for the origninal song. I Wonder what products Cardi B and Lil Nas X will be promoting in 2075? LOL!

John, you're probably just getting more miliage overseas than here, so your checks are larger.
"John, you're probably just getting more miliage overseas than here, so your checks are larger"

Maybe Marc, but I don't have time to analize the statements. The domestic statement is 60 pages and the International is 90 pages. Seems a lot of my old domestic placements are showing up on my International statement. I'll get one show showing up in 7-8 different countries. Like this show airing in Canada: "000012 DAILY SHOW WITH TREVOR NOAH DAILY SHOW WITH TREVOR NOAH OPRAH WINFREY $65.32". Not bad for one play, but a Country like Malaysia, would have only paid a couple dollars for the same show. This is massive accounting. I'm sure there's some computerize technology that calculates all this. Then ASCAP has to convert all the foreign currency to ours. Amazing though...

John smile
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/20/21 06:43 PM
John,

It is pretty funny. But not as funny as sitting with an ASCAP/BMI/SESAC rep and try to have them explain the formulas used in calculating this stuff. Basically now its all algorhtmns and who reports what. One of the grayist of the gray areas. Glad you are seeing a few bucks here and there. Most don't even send out checks anymore unless it is over $50. I'm just waiting till the day they start invoicing writers for money they OWE for having their songs used. That'll be the next shoe to drop. LOL
MAB
"It is pretty funny. But not as funny as sitting with an ASCAP/BMI/SESAC rep and try to have them explain the formulas used in calculating this stuff"

Ha, ha... I've been there Marc when a rep called me and explained for 15 minutes why I wasn't getting paid for 150 Telemundo News Shows.

John smile
Posted By: Everett Adams Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/21/21 11:18 AM
It's a strange world this music world. In North America I make peanuts for use of my material, while in other parts of the world I'm getting heard in places I've never expected to be heard. Like $150.00 from a song being used in a concert in the UK I think. Cast your bread upon the waters and it will not return void, also a prophet is without honour in his own country. Some wise sayings in the bible.
Posted By: Sunset Poet Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/21/21 12:03 PM
Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
"It is pretty funny. But not as funny as sitting with an ASCAP/BMI/SESAC rep and try to have them explain the formulas used in calculating this stuff"

Ha, ha... I've been there Marc when a rep called me and explained for 15 minutes why I wasn't getting paid for 150 Telemundo News Shows.

John smile


What was his explanation for that?
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/21/21 12:19 PM
I had a friend who is a song plugger/publisher, who ended up getting a song that was a top five song in GREECE. There was a female trio, who was the equivilent of America's "DESTINY'S CHILD". HUGE in Greece and throughout much of Europe. They were everywhere, television, billboards, on buses, etc. They were this sensation, and his song was their huge breakout hit.
He noticed that the next year, when he should have started seeing money, there was nothing. He thought it was just an intercountry thing. He waited 18 months, two years, and started calling ASCAP, started trying to check on where the money was. Every place led him to another dead end. Finally, in year three, he was put in contact with the ASCAP equivilent in Greece, and was basically told that "People were rioting in the streets. The PRO in Greece is owned by the state, as it is a socialist country." He never recieved a dime.

Basically you are pretty lucky if you get anything out of these people. When there is Civil Unrest, desrtruction going on, people dying, paying for a song is not quite the priority. And when you get money from different countries, you find out it's not quite what anyone thinking it is. Getting 100 million Yen ends up being worth about $20. To me, it's sort of amazing we're getting anything from anywhere. As I've said before,music is now endless and free. Ain't going back.

Another friend of mine showed up to a set I did last night. Had not seen him in years, and was pretty amazed he popped in. He was once the "PUBLISHER Of the YEAR two years in a row and 10 years ago had told me he was getting out of publishing and into CATELOG SALES. You know, the Bob Dylan, Stevie Nicks" type sell outs of the entire catalog that we are seeing now? He is doing that for major country writers. That is where the money is and quite probably the end of the money in music.
Everything he told me ten years ago has come true.

You always hope, but to tell you the truth, I'm just not that optimistic "money for music" is even going to be a thing in the not too distant future. Do music because you enjoy it. Don't look for some huge pay off or even any pay off. Be apprecitaive for what you get, and remember, one day you'll look back and THESE will be the "good old days."

MAB
Originally Posted by Sunset Poet
Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
"It is pretty funny. But not as funny as sitting with an ASCAP/BMI/SESAC rep and try to have them explain the formulas used in calculating this stuff"

Ha, ha... I've been there Marc when a rep called me and explained for 15 minutes why I wasn't getting paid for 150 Telemundo News Shows.

John smile


What was his explanation for that?


Hey Sunset... The Telemundo Network is a smaller network. Not as much money there (I was told) however, theyre owned by NBC Universal and service 100 countries and 35 languages. The explanation was that I didnt show up on their survey mechanism. Their survey for Telemundo only scans 2-3 hours of air time in a quarterly period (major networks are surveyed 24-7). So, if my music doesnt show up during 2-3 hours during a three-month period, I wont be paid. Cue sheets have no weight using this formula. By using this formula, some composers will benefit, while most will get the shaft. I got the shaft - ha, ha.

John smile
Posted By: Sunset Poet Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/21/21 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
Originally Posted by Sunset Poet
Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
"It is pretty funny. But not as funny as sitting with an ASCAP/BMI/SESAC rep and try to have them explain the formulas used in calculating this stuff"

Ha, ha... I've been there Marc when a rep called me and explained for 15 minutes why I wasn't getting paid for 150 Telemundo News Shows.

John smile


What was his explanation for that?


Hey Sunset... The Telemundo Network is a smaller network. Not as much money there (I was told) however, theyre owned by NBC Universal and service 100 countries and 35 languages. The explanation was that I didnt show up on their survey mechanism. Their survey for Telemundo only scans 2-3 hours of air time in a quarterly period (major networks are surveyed 24-7). So, if my music doesnt show up during 2-3 hours during a three-month period, I wont be paid. Cue sheets have no weight using this formula. By using this formula, some composers will benefit, while most will get the shaft. I got the shaft - ha, ha.

John smile


Thank you. That explains a lot.
A quarter is 3000 hours, give or take. That three thousand hours is scanned 2-3 hours (call it 3) per 3000 of playing time or on air time. That is .01%.
Unless your music is omnipresent during that entire quarter, the chance of your music being picked up in that small slice of time doesnt much actually exist.
If what he told you is true and accurate, that set-up is massively slanted towards the big ones.

And...(correct me if I am wrong)...If I go into my favorite little bar once in a year and pull out a guitar and cover an ASCAP or BMI song on the one night that a BMI rep is in there, that bar will have to pay appx $2000 in annual royalty payments. This was told to me by their staff.

Is that likely accurate?
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/21/21 09:03 PM
Probably not. That might be the threat, but doubful they would go to that length. One song is not going to make much of a difference at all. It is usually more of a playlist. It would depend on the square footage of the bar, and what their aggreement would be. Yes, in theory, that might be true, in reality, probably not for one song. But they are threatened quite a bit, and it is quite convincing.

The scenario that John talks about, the smaller markets, has always been true. It's why people who get their songs played on some small market or college station, will never make it to a survey mechanism. Songs have to be played continually, on multiple stations in multiple markets to show up on the surveys. This gets into advertising revenue, and other formulas. It's why all of this is so difficult to keep track of. Imagine the hundreds of thousands of writers and millions upon millions of songs that are floating about out there. Basically, you really have to recieve airplay or viewers in substantial markets to ever make much money.

MAB
Posted By: Sunset Poet Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/21/21 09:20 PM
The number that they actually quoted to me was $1800 and some change...and they said that it was based on the size of the bar... as you said.
They have a very eclectic and non contemporary juke box and they were explaining why that was to me, and why they only allow people to play originals in the bar.
People exaggerate. What you are saying sounds correct, but the fact that it is even theoretically possible gave me something to wonder about.

The takeaway for me is that if a person's song is not on the radio in big markets getting a lot of airplay....then ASCAP, BMI, SESAC are irrelevant to that person for any practical reason. Reasonably correct assumption?
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/22/21 03:25 PM
Yes, that is the exact assumption. There is really no physical way that PRO's can collect money on everything and pay all songwriters. Most songs and artists NEVER get more than a couple hundred views or listens (if that) from friends and family. Most never get that. And in many cases, such as the Internet, they are not even listening to more than a few seconds of any song. Studies have been done that people have the attention span of a goldfish. About eight seconds. With endless music out there, (about 100,000 songs uploaded an hour on Facebook alone) people are just bombarded by music all the time any time. And they are also bombarded by moble apps, games, puzzles, blogs, movies, TV, you name it, where they get it on their phones and all devices.

So why belong to any of these organizations? Because we all HOPE that we might hit the lottery and have one of those songs go worldwide viral. There's always that hope, and people do that. But when you look BEYOND the song, and find the stories of the song, the people involved with the song, the years that it took to get there, etc. you find that it is always much more complicated and involved than anyone wants to believe. And a lot of the shady aspects of the music industry that people like to talk about here. Yeah, that exists too.

But put your self in the place of the people at BMI, ASCAP, SESAC. A very good friend of mine here in Nashville is DAVID PRESTON. DAvid is an Executive Vice President, and one of the heads of the Artist representative departments. Two years ago he told me he gets an average of 150 calls, emails, A DAY, asking for personal conferences from songwriters. That;s every day. And he has a pretty large staff below them. They probably get four or five times that. There are not enough hours in the day to see everyone. And that is the same with ASCAP and SESAC. I have good friends at all of them, and they pretty much echo that.
For someone like David, a lot of his calls are from HIT, STAFF and SUCCESSFUL writers all asking where their money has gone, because it has all taken a huge nosedive to next to nothing.

And what are they supposed to tell these people? In order to MAKE MONEY on songs, SOMEONE HAS TO PAY MONEY FOR THOSE SONGS.
That's how songwriters are paid. The sale of PHYSICAL PRODUCT (CD'S, LEGAL DOWNLOADS, etc. Things you can hold in your hand.)
And PERFORMANCES (Times something is played, where it's played, etc.)There are all kinds of different things, digital, Echo dot, subscription services, usage in Television and movies, commercials, etc.) Each one have their own rules and etticates. Each one takes a different relationship to deal with.

Professional songwriters give up half the ownership of this song to have PUBLISHERS, who deal with all of this. And they need publishers to be able to get their songs in the pipelines to even be heard in the first place. Publishers are the "AGENTS" for songs, which is the same as Hollywood actors have. Russel Crowe, and Daniel Day Lewis, don't go to every audition. They have agents that represent them. And if you dion't have an agent, you don't get in on those auditions in the first place.
Same with publishers and songwriters. And those publishers spend HOURS every day, tracking down all that stuff and keeping track of what is happening with their clients songs. Songwriters are writing songs. Again, only so many hours in the day.

Now there are people, like John here, that has established himself over the years and gets some placements in certain projects. That's great and very few and far between. If he didn't have the product, he wouldn't get those, because he is having to get through the gauntlet of people involved in those productions, like film and televison music directors who are often songwriters themselves. Want something in a Pixar movie? Better be hotter than Randy Newman.
But many of those productions, independent films, smaller networks (Like Telemundo, that John is referring to) don't pay that much money. They don't get that much advertising revenue. That's where these payments come from.

But the biggest thing is that VISABILITY IS VIABILITY. If you have something getting played several times a day in MAJOR MARKETS, in television, on awards shows, in commercials, major motion pictures, etc. you will make a nice chunk of money Might take a couple years for it all to come in and you may have a bunch of people to pay out BEFORE it gets to you, other co-writers, publshers, things like the HARRY FOX AGENCY, who specifically collect for Television and motion pictures (you have to hire them independently) and sometimes, since most pro writers have had a couple of deals BEFORE they usually owe money to other people. IF you've had a staff deal for a year or two, that all has to be paid back BEFORE you clear a dime. I can't tell you how many people I know that had number one songs and never saw a dime of it due to money they owed to even get into the business.

THE MORE YOU KNOW ABOUT THE MUSIC BUSINESS, THE LESS YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THE MUSIC BUSINESS.

So now there are less and less people PHYSICALLY PAYING for music. And more and more people using music. More and more, lower and lower subscription fees. How many songs do you think "$5.00 a month unlimited downloading" pays for? And for all the bluster from the platforms ilke SPOTIFY, PANDORA, and others that make these huge claims that they pay out BILLIONS of royalties, I've yet to find ONE SATISFIED AND HAPPY SONGWRITER. Why do you think Dylan and others are selling their cateloges? Cause they are not making enough money in other ways. This is the end of the money in music for the most part.

So if your focus in music and songwriting is to make money, get rich, etc. you are probably in the wrong business. And I have NEVER, NEVER met one hit writer, that moved to this town, LA or New York to make their fortune. Not one. I have personally written with around 100 writers with top tens, number one, and other very successful writers in my 32 years here. They all moved because that was the next step. They had reached a certain level in their area (I was at the top of the game in Alabama before I moved here) they all were young and decided that's where they needed to go. They wanted to write great songs and meet people that could get them in higher places. The people most surprised by their successes are usually some of the biggest hit writers. But all had enormous struggles to get where they were. And far more incredibly talented people, lasted a couple years and moved home or moved on in their lives never been heard from or getting very close but no cigar. I count myself among those people, having been closer to deals, cuts, hits artists, etc,than I really like to think about, and not getting that huge pay off.
Just part of it. I'm just too stupid to have moved out. When I got close, in 2000, a group of people approached me about teaching this stuff, and so I did.
Perseverance.

So is business slow? For some people sure it.
Is the money leaking away? For most people. Yep.
Do we quit? I don't, Other people might. Each person has to make their own decisions.

Everyone has dreams. Go chase them. But inject some REALITY into the dreams.

That would be my answer.
MAB
As usual, Marc nailed it!

John smile
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/22/21 09:48 PM
Thanks John,

It's find of weird, some people think I am some kind of "defend the music business" guy. I'm not. While I've always been on the perephery of the music business, had publishing deals, cuts, etc i've never gotten all bogged down into the details or been hamstrung by what the business is and is not. I've always sort of operated in my own world, which is why I'm still around while most of my contemporaries are long gone, quit, died off, or simply moved on to other things.
But I always know people who are there, people who are writers publishers, artists, managers, agents, venue owners, etc. that DO know what's going on. I've been able to see all this as a more or less outside observer. I don't really have a dog in the hunt. Doesn;'t matter to me if I ever get another cut. Doesn;t matter if any artist I work with strikes gold and becomes a big star. It would always be interesting, but not that big a deal to me, would not really change anything I do.

Once, when I was working with Frankie Ballard, someone asked me "What are you going to be doing after Frankie gets signed and things start kicking in?"
I said, "The day before it happens, I'll be working with artists, and writers, talking about songwriting, networking, the business of music.
The day after it happens, I'll be working with artists and writers, talking about songwriting, networking and the business of music."

And that's been pretty much what I've done.

When someone asks a question that is in my wheelhouse, I experience it personally or know people that experience it, I'll give my take on it. People can take it or leave it. But it is from the people involved with doing this.

I don't know where music will end up but people need to be involved in whatever level they are involved in with eyes open and have a love for the process and what they are doing. That should be it. If things happen, if they find themselves in positions to make money or make inroads, they should do that but be aware of the larger picture.
Anything I talk about is the bigger picture. I hope it helps.

Thanks, and congratulations on your victories. They are few and far between, but everything that keeps you moving forward is a VICTORY!

MAB
Posted By: JAPOV Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/22/21 10:53 PM
Oh, come on Mr B... Let's pick a headliner and pitch something! wink
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/23/21 02:35 PM
Pitch what? You can pitch to anyone you write with. Aside from that, you're pretty much pitching to yourself. Headliners are LONG GONE from anyone's reach. And the people you have to go through usually have a LOT more gold and platinum records than you do, so you don't really qualify.
But hey, you can always go for it. Go ahead and pitch. You also can just walk onto the practice field of a major Pro football team too and start playing. Not really advisable, but you can try it

There is a real world out there. Best to understand the rules before you get on the field.

MAB
Posted By: JAPOV Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/23/21 05:00 PM
Lol... It was a joke Marc! smile
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 05/24/21 01:05 PM
Yeah, I got it. You'd just be surprised how many don't get it.
Does anyone have a direct contact for John Schick? I hope he is doing well. Let's hunt him down!
Posted By: ben willis Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 07/14/22 08:35 PM
You Can PM him here and he will be notified of the PM on his regular e-mail.
He has been found!
Posted By: Tom Shea Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 07/18/22 06:32 PM
How many songs are written / recorded every week? In the US alone - how many. Thousands ----- It is pretty easy to see that the odds are not very favorable. I enjoy listening to new artists and songs on Amazon Prime Music ---- So many each week and some are pretty good. Few will ever get much attention.

Justice has had over two million plays of her songs on streaming services - which sounds pretty good, but only to someone who does not know much about the music industry. At least it is something that she enjoys knowing and we do get a small check every few months from CDBaby for the streams (note O think that CD Baby does not sell CD's anymore).

All in all though, doing some music production in a very small way, still provides satisfaction but certainly no meaningful money. It is nice to see that some like a couple posters in this thread are successful ------ It is all relative.
Great to hear that Justice is still singing, recording, etc.

Best, John smile
Posted By: Tom Shea Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 07/20/22 10:45 PM
Thanks John ----- She has been very sick and has been unable to perform for a few years but has recorded a couple songs. I appreciate you remembering her.
Sorry to hear of her illness Tom. Sending my thoughts & prayers to Justice...

John
Tom,

I am sorry to hear about Justice. And 2 million listens is far more than most people ever get near in the history of the world. The money may be small, but that is a big accomplishment nonetheless. I hope she is able to get back to enjoying making music, I think that is the most important part in the first place. So few seem to realize that sadly.

Brian
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 07/26/22 01:23 PM
[quote=Tom Shea]"How many songs are written / recorded every week? In the US alone - how many. Thousands ----- It is pretty easy to see that the odds are not very favorable. I enjoy listening to new artists and songs on Amazon Prime Music ---- So many each week and some are pretty good. Few will ever get much attention. "


Hello everyone.
Welcome back Brian. Looks like your EUROPEAN touring has done well. Hope your health is holding up. Great to see you and thanks for getting the site back up and running. I always like referring this site to newer people I come into contact with. Don't know if they will show up, but its always nice to have a place to send them. Please never hesitate to let me know if I can ever do anything to help you.

A lot being talked over here and good to see many familiar faces and names. I usually go back and check things out and only comment on things I have personal knowledge of. Tom had asked about "how many songs are written/recorded every week?" The numbers I have seen are something like "Facebook alone uploads around 100,000 songs and videos an hour." If you add in SPOTIFY, TIK TOK (the new 15 second song model) Instagram, Twitter, etc. and you can see how they come up with rough figures of millions a day. When you add in older songs, endless catelogues, etc and you have about a BILLION songs a month, that find their way onto the World Wide Web.

That's why whenever someone says "What if all songwriters 'went on strike' and not put anything up?" It would never work, because number one there are enough songs artists, videos, etc. out there right now to last hundreds of lifetimes. So we could all stop now, and it wouldn't make a dimes bit of difference. The second is because most people would never do it. "Those other people want to stop? Fine. Less competition for me."
Music or art is a highly individulalized edeavor. People are not going to put their own creative works on hold because someone else tells them to. That is what the Internet provides. Don't like the way things are? Don't participate. No one forces you to.

There is endless music out there. Endless categories. Endless platforms. The cat got out of the bag years ago, and is never going to be put back together. Platforms try to (or say 'they try to") address the situation by claiming they are paying more and more, of course what they are paying is less and less. But the bottom line lays with the end line consumer. Most people simply don't believe in paying for music. Like the days of AM and FM radio, "it is free, and out there? Why pay for anything you can get for free?"
That is the question.

I've read articles and talked to people that say that most people under the age of 25 couldn't care less about music unless it is in the background of some computer or video game they play. These are the same people that don't want to OWN anything. They don't want to own houses, have no interest in actual CAREERS as much as just a temporary job. It's a very temporary world.

Andy Warhol was right, where he said "in the future, everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." I think he missed the time frame.
Today everyone is famous for FIFTEEN SECONDS. Isn't it interesting that is the model Tik Tok is setting. 15 second attention span.

I'm just as guilty as anyone. As I sit and write this, I have news going on the television, talk radio in the background, answering emails and setting up for my appointment coming in about an hour, forwarding information to the client and her parents of things to do today, before we get together and work tomorrow. AND in the middle of that, I had to go change out batteries in a smoke detector, after getting a half dozen angry texts from my girlfriend in her office in the other end of the house, screaming about the smoke detector. LOL! I'd say "DISTRACTED SHORT ATTENTION SPANS" is a vast understatement.

Where does it go? Geeze, I have no idea. I just deal with what I can deal with day by day. But I try to encourage people to focus on the things they CAN DO and not get too caught up in what they CAN'T DO. We all have goals and ideas, and I wish we all could find ways to be renumerated for being ourselves.

It's good to see everyone and I hope you are all navigating the world successfully. Stay safe and as always, if anyone needs help I can provide, I'm a PM away. And if you want my comments on anything, like Beatle Juice, say my name three times. I'll show up. LOL!

Have a good day.
MAB
Posted By: JAPOV Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 07/29/22 06:28 PM
Hi Marc, good to see you!
I know we have had our arguments in the past, and I'm certainly guilty of provoking you on occasion lol... But seriously, NOT FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT, but shouldn't the current political state of the world be taken into account? You can't ignore that the "consumers" populate the Earth, and that entire population is the target market. Every twenty-something with a guitar wants to be "WORLD WIDE" lol. However, the entire population today is politically "split", and the political pendulum is swinging back to the right FAST! So, could it be... could it POSSIBLY be... that the reason the music business is so slow is because;
1- At least half the population doesn't TRUST the media anymore and that's why they have no time for it.
2- The media only caters to a 6th grade intellect anyway.
3- Half the population is fed-up, sick-n-tired, and will no longer tolerate the current woke, all inclusive, asexual, politically correct media industry standard that has played a major part in screwing everything up to begin with.

Could it be? smile
Hey Marc! Wow, a billion songs a month? That means 500 million songwriters have to finish a minimum of two songs a month. Sorry, just trying to wrap my head around a billion songs a month – ha, ha.

Well, yes, endless music out in Cyber Land. Although, 99% (just a guesstimate) follows a tried-and-true writing method, i.e., following the closest related chords and predictable melodies (little dissonance or deviations from the diatonic Major/ Minor scales). So, I imagine that there is very little new and / or interesting songs out there. Please, Cyber songwriters, break from the standard chord progressions.

I’ve heard many times, musicians saying there is nothing new to compose. I disagree, there is infinite possibilities outside of the predictable. 12 tones and their octaves have limitless possibilities. Possibilities that have been scarcely explored. Of course, that’s easy for an instrumental composer to say. Songwriters have to come up with new lyrical ideas. – as well as new melodies. And yes, today’s attention span could use some remodeling. Probably only a handful of subjects that would garner attention from the Cyber audience, for more than 10 seconds.

Okay, I had my say. Now I can go take my daily afternoon nap.

Best, John smile
Posted By: JAPOV Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 07/29/22 09:14 PM
Really John? You seriously expect some Nashville numbers, chicken pickin', country bumpkin to shoot for a Cadd9/E on a Fender Strat with a swing beat in the key of D#m? Lol, consider your audience here John... smile
No, I don't expect it Japov.

John:)
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 07/30/22 03:10 PM
Hey folks,

John, those numbers are essentially numbers BMI, ASCAP and SESAC have tossed around for a few years. It is not all songs. There are videos, streaming services. and millions upon millions of people every minute or every day posting things to social networking sites. You also have to keep in mind, this includes hundreds of thousands of songs that have been around for years, even decades. Every publishing company have thousands in their catalogs and TIK TOK along loads hundreds of thousands of those 10-15 second videos a minute. So it really doesn't have to be writers writing each day. or even things that would qualify as a "song" in many definitions. No matter what the numbers are, It's mind numbing, no matter how many they are. The point is that the difficulty of getting and keeping people's attention for any amount of time is pretty hard these days. In my experience, we have more people NOW DOING MUSIC than LISTENING TO IT.

Japov, there are tons of reasons that it has gotten into the areas it is, the mindless record companies are just one more instence. In 1998, when I attended an "insiders" conference about something coming called the "INTERWEB" one of the tech guys said "In the future, songwriters will have to forget about royalties, cause those won't be there anymore." That's pretty much exactly what has happened.

It's always supply and demand and for writers, actors, artists, whatever, have to find their niche. That's the present and the future of the craft.
Marc, whatever the number is, it's a shitload - ha, ha. I find it amazing how ASCAP keeps record of all this. At least a dozen Internet performances show up on my statements each quarter.

Best, John smile
Posted By: JAPOV Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 07/30/22 04:13 PM
Ohhhhhhh, I seee... So, in order for me to "RULE THE WORLD", first I need someone with enough clout to label and categorize me. Hmmmmm.... smile
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 08/01/22 12:04 PM
John,

ASCAP, BMI, SESAC DON'T keep most of them registered or keep up with it. Or pay out on anything that doesn't generate enough traffic. That's a big part of the problem, they have to registered, and have to come from something that REPORTS them. The vast vast vast majority of songs get no views, no listens, no downloads, etc. Just because someone puts something OUT there, doesn't mean anyone pays for it.It's the equivilent of "back in the day" when someone would get a few spins of a record on some obscure college radio station in the middle of no where. There is just not enough activity to report. Same deal today.

And in many cases, touring artists, who register venues where they play, those venues have been hit by licencing fees, fines, or in many cases, quit having live music in any way. With all the hardships of Covid and related economic issues over the past few years, a resturant or bar already having problems keeping their doors open, supply chain problems, staffing problems, being hit with something else to pay for. Not worth getting hit up.

It's been an interesting world, watching a lot of my friends with very large hit songs, posting photos of their royalty checks, adding up to literally pennies.

Japov, as usual, all you need is a very large following of people who will pay you directly for your music. Then you'll do fine. Just need people that will pay you for being you. You have a big personality. Should be no problem for you.
Posted By: Gavin Sinclair Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 08/01/22 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Japov, as usual, all you need is a very large following of people who will pay you directly for your music. Then you'll do fine. Just need people that will pay you for being you. You have a big personality. Should be no problem for you.

Surely JAPOV would have more luck asking people to pay for him not to be him LOL.
Posted By: JAPOV Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 08/02/22 04:48 AM
Ha! I obviously have all the fans I need right here... wink
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 08/02/22 01:13 PM
Yes, the musical equivilant of the ""FARMER'S SUBSIDIES) farmers being paid NOT to grow certain things.) Maybe some songwriters can be paid not to write, record or perform. I can think of a lot of people coming to Nashville every day who need that. When you have endless streams of mediocrity, you sometimes would rather just pay them to go away.
Posted By: JAPOV Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 08/02/22 02:35 PM
Now, now, Marc... just remember we're all the same color, all the same sex, and we all have equal opportunity and education. Just relax baby, it's all equitable, beautiful, and green smile
Quote
Marc Barnette]

John,
ASCAP, BMI, SESAC DON'T keep most of them registered or keep up with it. Or pay out on anything that doesn't generate enough traffic. That's a big part of the problem, they have to registered, and have to come from something that REPORTS them. The vast vast vast majority of songs get no views, no listens, no downloads, etc. Just because someone puts something OUT there, doesn't mean anyone pays for it.It's the equivilent of "back in the day" when someone would get a few spins of a record on some obscure college radio station in the middle of no where. There is just not enough activity to report. Same deal today.

So, it's not really an ASCAP mechanism, it's my publishers reporting my Internet plays? TV / film is different, because cue sheets are turned in with all the necessary info. Although, some production companies are lax with the cue sheets. I see some cue sheets being turned in a year or two after the airing. Interesting anyway, how the money comes to ASCAP, then to the writers and performers.

John smile
Talked with an ASCAP representative. Here's what they told me:

ASCAP receives digital data from radio stations and streaming services which is then processed by our Audio Performance Management platform, which matches performance data to the works registered in ASCAP's databases. Detailed information about our performance matching and payment system can be found at https://www.ascap.com/help/royalties-and-payment/payment/surveys

John smile
Posted By: Little_stevie_b Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 08/04/22 02:13 AM
Tom,
So sorry to hear Justice has had health problems. I remember all the work you did with her. What a great time in life when you have the opportunity to actively work with your kid in something you both are passionate about, especially in the creative realm and be helping them pursue a dream to boot. I miss that with my kids but now have 7 grandkids to muck about with.

I hope whatever her health problem(s) are, that she finds relief. How old is she now?
Regards.
Steve
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 08/04/22 01:35 PM
John, the operative word is REPORTING. Many people that get "placements" in film and television and get no money because frankly the television, podcasts or movies, make no money at all, in fact close quickly, have very low vewership. Many, actually most podcasts have no commericals or income revenue. They don't report. So your publisher can report all they want to and there is nothing to collect. And that is inherantly the over problem. The endline consumer simply pays no money for music at all, or pays for streaming services that are so low as to not register. In order for anyone to COLLECT money, someone has to PAY money.

Even on many streaming services, people are listening to around 8 seconds of songs, and then move on to something else. They don't register at all. This is the moving goalposts that have been happening since the Internet began this. The streaming platforms, make money. But they don't pay that money out. How someone like SPOTIFY have billion dollar initial public offerings, pay nobody anything, and still be broke companies. Try to audit or check them out? They are usually based in countries like Sweden, Russia or most often, China. My personal feelings are that one day all of these companies are going to be the "news story" when they end up completely going under, the money taken to non-extridition countries or it is discovered the claims of endless money never existed in the first place. Much like Enron, Bernie Madoff or the other "sure things" that were "too big to fail."

Most videos, music, etc. get less than a few hundred streams, views or listens. There is simply nothing to collect. And as the world of entertainment, culture, etc. get more and more saturated, less and less controlled, and the endline consumer is able to get whatever they want from a huge variety of sources, the idea of "making money through music" will be an archaic term. Supply and demand. Never fails.
Hey Marc, I agree with you on streaming music on the Internet. However, TV & film placements are still lucrative. It’s in the interest of the publisher to have production people turn in cue sheets. On the most part, I think they do. Also, except for the cheap reality shows and poor stations like Telemundo, most major stations like CBS, NBC, ABC, or markets like HBO, Netflix, Prime Video, etc. pay upfront licensing. Theater movies always pay upfront because the PROs don’t cover them. That being said, the last couple years have slowed down a bit - but it's far from coming to an end - I hope...

John smile
Posted By: Craig Allen Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 08/05/22 10:33 PM
Hey John, don’t mean to interrupt this interesting discussion, but did you ever find that Nintendo commercial?
Originally Posted by Craig Allen
Hey John, don’t mean to interrupt this interesting discussion, but did you ever find that Nintendo commercial?

Unfortunately, not Craig. The last I was told it was used for a Nintendo commercial and convention. My publisher couldn't supply me with a link. Bummer - but I moved on...

Best, John smile
Posted By: Craig Allen Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 08/06/22 03:07 PM
Interesting. Thanks John…Craig
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 08/08/22 12:42 PM
Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
Hey Marc, I agree with you on streaming music on the Internet. However, TV & film placements are still lucrative. It’s in the interest of the publisher to have production people turn in cue sheets. On the most part, I think they do. Also, except for the cheap reality shows and poor stations like Telemundo, most major stations like CBS, NBC, ABC, or markets like HBO, Netflix, Prime Video, etc. pay upfront licensing. Theater movies always pay upfront because the PROs don’t cover them. That being said, the last couple years have slowed down a bit - but it's far from coming to an end - I hope...

John smile

Considering that I have a friend who has some pretty major tv and film placements with DISNEY, who has also been having problems getting paid, it's not always as lucrative as it once was. All of the legal issues now are just another part of the slow downs. Much has to do with companies buying other companies, multiple changes in accounting, as well as companies simply going out of business, which is what we have seen over the past ten-fifteen years. The overall point is that anyone expecting to make money from music, need to be aware of all the various things going on and keep expectations realistic.
Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
Hey Marc, I agree with you on streaming music on the Internet. However, TV & film placements are still lucrative. It’s in the interest of the publisher to have production people turn in cue sheets. On the most part, I think they do. Also, except for the cheap reality shows and poor stations like Telemundo, most major stations like CBS, NBC, ABC, or markets like HBO, Netflix, Prime Video, etc. pay upfront licensing. Theater movies always pay upfront because the PROs don’t cover them. That being said, the last couple years have slowed down a bit - but it's far from coming to an end - I hope...

John smile

Considering that I have a friend who has some pretty major tv and film placements with DISNEY, who has also been having problems getting paid, it's not always as lucrative as it once was. All of the legal issues now are just another part of the slow downs. Much has to do with companies buying other companies, multiple changes in accounting, as well as companies simply going out of business, which is what we have seen over the past ten-fifteen years. The overall point is that anyone expecting to make money from music, need to be aware of all the various things going on and keep expectations realistic.

Well Marc, Disney probably isn't a good example. With all their financial problems. The cue sheet flow has slowed down, but still moving from my experience. I haven't experienced any problems getting paid by any company.

Best, John smile
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 08/09/22 12:33 PM
Very good John. You are the one satisfied with the music industry.
Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Very good John. You are the one satisfied with the music industry.


Oh, come on Marc. Don't end this debate. It's been a long time since we had debates on JPF. I have had tracks on Disney placements.

Best, John laugh
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 08/11/22 12:55 PM
John,

There's not much debate. If you are personally doing well, that is great. There are very few people that I know at all that are. My personal feelings are of those I was told many years ago that most people should stop looking for financial rewards coming through music. I believe we are going back to the days where there were "patrons of the arts" and pretty much all money in music will be ending before very long. There will always be some people on the top of the heap, but the goalposts will continue to be changed until monetary compensation for music will be completey phased out or so small as to make no discernable money whatsoever. This includes people that are live performers, that do paintings, sculputure, etc. it will all be erased from any value.

I got out of the acutal 'music business" many years ago and got into teaching and instructing. The similar ways that prospectors in the gold and silver rushes of the old west, phased out, and the people who persevered, were the stores, the merchants, the people who sold the picks, shovels and claims, to the subsequent generations coming in. I quit my belief in monetary compensation for music decades ago. So it doesn't matter to me. I simply observe.

When I speak of anything on these or any boards, it is from personal experience that myself of friends of mine have gone through and watching almost all professional writers exit the business completely, and newer generations of "amateurs" take over (Reality shows, the "streaming world", decline of standards, quality, etc.) is simply a natural evolution or de-evolution of what happens when there are no floodgates, no real gatekeepers,etc. just everyone being able to do roughly the same thing. Get enough "views or clicks" develop a following, you'll survive. Don't, you won't. End of story.

I'm in effect, "semi-retired." I work with whom I choose work with, say "NO" a lot, and basically stay involved in my own small corner of the universe. I have beyond no interest in what is happening with any of the traditional or non-traditional forms of musical world. Something I was once interested in, no longer am.
In my opinion, it is "THE BEST OF TIMES, THE WORST OF TIMES." If you constantly re-invent yourself and react or are in front of what is coming, you'll be fine. If not, you won't,

So you'll find no debate with me. It is what it is. I have no dog in the hunt. I have my experiences, others have theirs. My involvement in all of this is fading quickly. I did come back around because it is always nice to have forums and venues for other people to congregate and pick up various perspectives on information. I wish everyone well. No debate from me, just an older guy watching the sun set.
Posted By: JAPOV Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 08/11/22 05:12 PM
You're starting to rub off on me Marc, lol...
Perhaps you need a change of pace?
Sincerely now, Everybody knows that you know the industry inside and out, and that's great! But, going on and on about how the business has always been a crap shoot, now there's no money left in it, and it's only going to get worse... "blah blah"... is kinda' boring and depressing. So, here's what I'm thinking... Try a little levity. Start a thread called, "50yrs of MAB's humorous success/fail stories about the music biz!" Start all the way back when you were first learning to play and sing, leaving enough room between short stories for the rest of us to laugh, reminisce, and relate. A real "get to know ya" thread, while we ALL fade into the sunset. What'cha think? smile
Marc, one reason why music placements for film is still lucrative, is many film companies want to make sure the music is properly cleared, to avoid lawsuits. They're willing to pay more money for this assurance.
Posted By: Craig Allen Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 08/12/22 01:09 AM
Hey John, I’ve been targeting sync. placements the last year plus. A couple of songs are on hold, another sync. agent offered an exclusive contract, and several songs are listed with a non-exclusive sync. agent. The “agents” I speak of have had successful placements in the past. They seem realistic about possibilities because of the competition. But parts of the industry, Tik Tok being the most recent, are hiring artificial intelligence software types to have AI ‘write’ the songs (or bits of songs) for their videos. So, in this environment, as far as being able to commercialize music, human music makers have been devalued.
Posted By: Marc Barnette Re: Music Business A Little Slow... - 08/12/22 01:13 PM
Originally Posted by JAPOV
You're starting to rub off on me Marc, lol...
Perhaps you need a change of pace?
Sincerely now, Everybody knows that you know the industry inside and out, and that's great! But, going on and on about how the business has always been a crap shoot, now there's no money left in it, and it's only going to get worse... "blah blah"... is kinda' boring and depressing. So, here's what I'm thinking... Try a little levity. Start a thread called, "50yrs of MAB's humorous success/fail stories about the music biz!" Start all the way back when you were first learning to play and sing, leaving enough room between short stories for the rest of us to laugh, reminisce, and relate. A real "get to know ya" thread, while we ALL fade into the sunset. What'cha think? smile


NAH
Originally Posted by Craig Allen
Hey John, I’ve been targeting sync. placements the last year plus. A couple of songs are on hold, another sync. agent offered an exclusive contract, and several songs are listed with a non-exclusive sync. agent. The “agents” I speak of have had successful placements in the past. They seem realistic about possibilities because of the competition. But parts of the industry, Tik Tok being the most recent, are hiring artificial intelligence software types to have AI ‘write’ the songs (or bits of songs) for their videos. So, in this environment, as far as being able to commercialize music, human music makers have been devalued.

Yes, and I see some companies offering royalty free music. There are also music libraries with hundreds of thousand tracks offering clients complete use of their library for $19.95 a month. Music creators selling out for a few cheap thrills. But, I have to believe that most of the top production companies wouldn't do business with libraries like these.
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