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BIAB Effects

Posted By: Gavin Sinclair

BIAB Effects - 02/28/21 05:28 PM

Question for those folks who use Band In A Box. Do you add effects to tracks after exporting to your DAW and, if so, what? I have been in the habit of pretty much leaving them alone and placing all my effort on the vocals or other instruments I add. My assumption was that the BIAB instruments are professionally recorded and might even have some effects added already, but now I wonder if I should be approaching this differently.
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 02/28/21 05:49 PM

In reading this, please keep in mind that I am a passionate newbie at best to BIAB.

It has been my very limited experience that BIAB default settings, reverb in particular, lay into a mix pretty well without doing anything else to them in BIAB.
Then, in the DAW when the entire mix is there, they may sound fine or may need some adjustments...but I believe it is better to do it in the DAW...because then you arent compounding changes upon other changes made in the original program.

Regarding exporting...Use BIAB as a plug in so that you are in the DAW when you are using it. It is a lot easier and a lot more seamless and you can ear test then and there._

Side note...
Multi riffs is my favorite BIAB function. I read that it cant be done in the standalone, but if you plug BIAB into your DAW it is available. I highly recommend learning to use it. I am personally able to get better and more natural sounding piano solos using BIAB MULTI RIFFS than I am with EZ KEYS with little effort.

Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 02/28/21 06:05 PM

I owned BIAB MANY years ago, before real tracks even. I got rid of it shortly after, i was never able to get good recordings, arrangements, i used to own tascam casette recorder, but at the end of the day, you still ended up with slightly better than live in your basement recordings. Im still rarely happy with my recordings, that may change as Im getting better with the tech.

But Gavins assumption is correct, those samples that are recorded, I believe many are recorded with a mic, in front of an amp, talking guitars anyway, so you are getting the room it was recorded in, along with anything you do, to it after it.

I found with toontracks stuff, that the settings that come as default are really really good to use as is. That's cause they know you are using it for recording, and know that many dont have the expertise to know ie, how loud the kick drum should be, how much verb the snare has, compression effects etc, i rarely fiddle with the settings, cause they know more than I do. They also have a really cool effect, where you can roll off the room. If you slide it to the left, less room actually all the way there is none. all the way to right your in the grand canyon.

But I rarely mess with the settings cause they are so good.

BIAB, i dont believe has the ability to roll off the room, and I do believe the room sound you are stuck with. It may have a dry setting where you take everything off it, and then add your own effects.

But if your not an engineer, stick with what they provide you.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 02/28/21 06:28 PM

Check this out. this is what I mean,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dig4ilbB4BQ
Posted By: Gavin Sinclair

Re: BIAB Effects - 02/28/21 06:36 PM

Thanks Marty. I do always export everything over into my DAW before making any adjustments. One of the reasons that I updated my version of BIAB a while ago was to be able to use it in my DAW. Unfortunately it just crashes my DAW, so I had to go back to working in BIAB and then exporting, as before. Reverb is one effect that you can see and adjust in the BIAB mixer, although I don't do any of that there, but I was wondering about other effects like compression. I have noticed how dull my mixes sound on more basic playback devices compared to the pros. It's not just my vocals - I would expect that since I'm kind of responsible for that and I kinda suck LOL - but the whole thing. I realize that mastering is an important part of the equation, but thought I'd investigate the mixing angle too in case I'm missing something obvious.
I watched a video showing how to use the multiriff function inside BIAB, so it is possible. As I understand it, it provides a convenient way to generate a whole lot of alternative tracks to audition and choose the best. Is my understanding correct?

Thanks for the feedback FD. Looks like BIAB does have a similar ability to roll off the reverb, either increasing or decreasing the original setting it chooses for you on each instrument.
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 02/28/21 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
I owned BIAB MANY years ago, before real tracks even. I got rid of it shortly after, i was never able to get good recordings, arrangements,


So did I and bought it again last year because of the results that MZ was getting with it. It has changed dramatically.
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 02/28/21 06:51 PM

Gavin

I did not load the BIAB instruments on to my hard drive because they are massive. I only loaded the exe. I attach the factory BIAB hard drive to my computer with USB and then set the path for the instrument tracks in the file path instructions. That might help.

I suggest that you do all your compressing and EQ in the daw when the entire mix is loaded in. I also highly recommend going to youtube and watch some videos on GAIN STAGING. Often people dont do that well enough and it makes a huge difference. The recommendations that I follow are....

Get every track in the mix done.
Delete all plug-ins and effects of any kind. Just raw dry tracks.
Gain stage every track to minus 10-12

and begin mixing from there.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 02/28/21 07:04 PM

Id like to have BIAB just as an idea generator. Im really only a guitar player, i think im a great air drummer, and i do well programming drums, but im not a piano player, not a bass player, not an arranger. be nice to get a harmonica or banjo, or violin or horns etc. it be nice to have it just to get an idea how a full band might handle my song then i could take it from there.

But these days the learning curve is so high, and that I dont want to be a professional BIAB user and spend the next year mastering it
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 02/28/21 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Id like to have BIAB just as an idea generator. Im really only a guitar player, i think im a great air drummer, and i do well programming drums, but im not a piano player, not a bass player, not an arranger. be nice to get a harmonica or banjo, or violin or horns etc. it be nice to have it just to get an idea how a full band might handle my song then i could take it from there.

But these days the learning curve is so high, and that I dont want to be a professional BIAB user and spend the next year mastering it


I havent mastered BIAB or my DAW or EZ KEYS or EZ DRUMMER or EZ BASS or HOLLYWOOD STRINGS...But...the time that I am putting in learning these things is very enhancing to my hobby and very very worth it in terms of enhanced enjoyment. And I highly recommend it to anyone passionate about this.

If you "dont need none at that dayum book learnin' anyways"... fine for you...but I suggest not bragging about being desirous of continued ignorance. Never looks right to me.
Posted By: JAPOV

Re: BIAB Effects - 02/28/21 07:53 PM

Gavin, I've always been rather impressed with the overall sound you're able to achieve. Perhaps you need to define what you mean by "dull"?
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 02/28/21 08:22 PM

Or, is it ignorance believing that everything is taking care of because you own BIAB. Thats ignorance, and its a forced ignorance, anybody who buys now believes they are recording engineers, producers, artists, songwriters.

I dont think its ignorant saying id rather learn how to play harmonica in the next 6 months, than learn how to use a software that makes up harmonica parts. Always wanted to play harmonica, but like most things its time consuming and where is the demand for me playing harmonica.

Touche now?
Posted By: Gavin Sinclair

Re: BIAB Effects - 02/28/21 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by Sunset Poet
Gavin

I did not load the BIAB instruments on to my hard drive because they are massive. I only loaded the exe. I attach the factory BIAB hard drive to my computer with USB and then set the path for the instrument tracks in the file path instructions. That might help.

I suggest that you do all your compressing and EQ in the daw when the entire mix is loaded in. I also highly recommend going to youtube and watch some videos on GAIN STAGING. Often people dont do that well enough and it makes a huge difference. The recommendations that I follow are....

Get every track in the mix done.
Delete all plug-ins and effects of any kind. Just raw dry tracks.
Gain stage every track to minus 10-12

and begin mixing from there.


That's where I keep all the BIAB stuff too. In fact I run the whole thing from there and it works fine. I will check out the videos on gain staging, thanks.
Posted By: Gavin Sinclair

Re: BIAB Effects - 02/28/21 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by JAPOV
Gavin, I've always been rather impressed with the overall sound you're able to achieve. Perhaps you need to define what you mean by "dull"?

Yes, it sounds OK to me through my headphones, but if I check it out through my TV, just playing from my YouTube channel, it just doesn't pop like the "real" productions do. It's very noticeable when you play one of those before or after my song. It's hard to describe really.
I realize that mastering has a lot to do with it too. I use Izotope Ozone elements and like what it does, especially with my limited technical ability.
Posted By: Gavin Sinclair

Re: BIAB Effects - 02/28/21 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Or, is it ignorance believing that everything is taking care of because you own BIAB. Thats ignorance, and its a forced ignorance, anybody who buys now believes they are recording engineers, producers, artists, songwriters.

I dont think its ignorant saying id rather learn how to play harmonica in the next 6 months, than learn how to use a software that makes up harmonica parts. Always wanted to play harmonica, but like most things its time consuming and where is the demand for me playing harmonica.

Touche now?

I don't believe that everything is taken care of by BIAB, but I kind of feel I have to be all of those things that you mention, so I try to do it to the best of my ability using the tools at my disposal. One day, I'll head over to Nashville and record a couple of songs properly and I'm sure the results will be far better. Also, and very importantly, I anticipate having a blast doing so. However, I can't afford to do that for many songs and BIAB helps give me an idea of which, if any, would be worth the treatment.

I actually play the harmonica LOL. For me, it isn't just a question of how well you play, but how good you are at capturing a recording. I'm not really set up to handle that part well and I'm pretty ignorant about it. One more thing to learn the technical aspects of.
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 02/28/21 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by Gavin Sinclair
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Or, is it ignorance believing that everything is taking care of because you own BIAB. Thats ignorance, and its a forced ignorance, anybody who buys now believes they are recording engineers, producers, artists, songwriters.

I dont think its ignorant saying id rather learn how to play harmonica in the next 6 months, than learn how to use a software that makes up harmonica parts. Always wanted to play harmonica, but like most things its time consuming and where is the demand for me playing harmonica.

Touche now?

I don't believe that everything is taken care of by BIAB, but I kind of feel I have to be all of those things that you mention, so I try to do it to the best of my ability using the tools at my disposal. One day, I'll head over to Nashville and record a couple of songs properly and I'm sure the results will be far better. Also, and very importantly, I anticipate having a blast doing so. However, I can't afford to do that for many songs and BIAB helps give me an idea of which, if any, would be worth the treatment.

I actually play the harmonica LOL. For me, it isn't just a question of how well you play, but how good you are at capturing a recording. I'm not really set up to handle that part well and I'm pretty ignorant about it. One more thing to learn the technical aspects of.


A great deal is taken care of in BIAB in 2021. it is staggeringly amazing and becomes more amazing each year. Anyone who thinks not is depriving themselves of an extraordinary tool and a fun experience.

Gavin...even good headphones are not very good for listening to what a final mix will actually sound like. They are good for getting all of the parts in place, but then you need some good monitors to hear it clearly. From everything that I have read, the low end of good is the YAMAHA HS series. I got a pair of HS5s for $199 ea and love them. The best thing about them is that they are very good but not excellent and therefore more representative of a random car stereo etc.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 02/28/21 09:34 PM

it certainly is a fun tool and experience, so is playing the guitar.

The reason i say it is a rough learning curve, because there are features on there, that you probably dont even use.

Everything ive asked about, somebody will say there is a feature,,,ie, if you want a chord to hit on an off beat, instead of straight up. there is a way to do that. There is a way to invert chords so that they are playing the chord the way you might have played it on your guitar. Voicings.

There are hundreds of little nuances that it has, but that would have to be learned. Every day they add something new to it, so its an ingoing tutorial. But some are content with just typing in the chords and letting it play, fine too.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 02/28/21 09:45 PM

were only in febuary, and heres what theyve added for 2021

https://www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.htm
Posted By: JAPOV

Re: BIAB Effects - 02/28/21 10:38 PM

I just looked up an iZotope Ozone tutorial. Is that your DAW? From the tutorial, it seems you're just tweaking the sound of the overall mix instead of dealing with separate tracks... is that right?
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 02/28/21 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
were only in febuary, and heres what theyve added for 2021

https://www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.htm



The magic is the algorithms that produce the various accompaniments and solos. I have spent hours trying to get a natural sounding piano solo from EZ KEYS. What I get is not as convincing as what comes from BIAB multi riffs in a single pass. You have to pick the right style but it is amazing. It is never perfectly what I want, but usually I cant cut and paste the riffs and be happy enough.
Posted By: Gavin Sinclair

Re: BIAB Effects - 02/28/21 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by JAPOV
I just looked up an iZotope Ozone tutorial. Is that your DAW? From the tutorial, it seems you're just tweaking the sound of the overall mix instead of dealing with separate tracks... is that right?

It's a plug-in for your DAW. You use it to master the track after you are happy with the mix. So yes, it affects the whole mix. There are people who do this for a living. Ozone does a lot of it automatically after analyzing the song. You can accept that or tweak it. For someone who isn't that great at this kind of stuff it's very useful. There is a more complex version for those who understand mastering better, but that would be wasted on me. Martin G turned me on to it back in the SW101 days.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/01/21 12:04 AM

Im not crazy about ez piano either. If you're good with midi editing, you can basicly draw your own part, but its hard editing midi, especially if piano is not your instrument. But drums, dont even try to compare BIAB to EZ drums or Superior drummer
Posted By: Gavin Sinclair

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/01/21 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by Sunset Poet
Originally Posted by Gavin Sinclair
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Or, is it ignorance believing that everything is taking care of because you own BIAB. Thats ignorance, and its a forced ignorance, anybody who buys now believes they are recording engineers, producers, artists, songwriters.

I dont think its ignorant saying id rather learn how to play harmonica in the next 6 months, than learn how to use a software that makes up harmonica parts. Always wanted to play harmonica, but like most things its time consuming and where is the demand for me playing harmonica.

Touche now?

I don't believe that everything is taken care of by BIAB, but I kind of feel I have to be all of those things that you mention, so I try to do it to the best of my ability using the tools at my disposal. One day, I'll head over to Nashville and record a couple of songs properly and I'm sure the results will be far better. Also, and very importantly, I anticipate having a blast doing so. However, I can't afford to do that for many songs and BIAB helps give me an idea of which, if any, would be worth the treatment.

I actually play the harmonica LOL. For me, it isn't just a question of how well you play, but how good you are at capturing a recording. I'm not really set up to handle that part well and I'm pretty ignorant about it. One more thing to learn the technical aspects of.


A great deal is taken care of in BIAB in 2021. it is staggeringly amazing and becomes more amazing each year. Anyone who thinks not is depriving themselves of an extraordinary tool and a fun experience.

Gavin...even good headphones are not very good for listening to what a final mix will actually sound like. They are good for getting all of the parts in place, but then you need some good monitors to hear it clearly. From everything that I have read, the low end of good is the YAMAHA HS series. I got a pair of HS5s for $199 ea and love them. The best thing about them is that they are very good but not excellent and therefore more representative of a random car stereo etc.

Thanks Marty. I had heard that I really should be using moirtors. Of course, headphones have the advantage that you can work without disturbing others. I did my homework and got the most neutral ones I could find (i.e. no bass boost as so many have).
Posted By: JAPOV

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/01/21 01:25 AM

"""It's a plug-in for your DAW. You use it to master the track after you are happy with the mix...."""

Well, lol... I would say that's the problem.
Whatever plugin you use on your master track creates the "atmosphere" in which you have to make your "mix" sound good within. For example; There isn't a plugin that you can apply to your master track to beef up your drums that won't also effect the rest of the mix. If you're relying on your master track to make your mix sound good then, your approach is backwards. The only thing iZotope analyzes is overall Eq. If you want to beef up the drums then you have to beef up the "drum track". Of course, that also applies to all other tracks as well. Does that make any sense?
Posted By: Gavin Sinclair

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/01/21 03:14 AM

Tony, you have achieved the almost impossible and underestimated me. I know all that. You do your mixing so that you are happy with how beefed up your drums are and all the rest, then, when you are happy with your mix, move on to the mastering. Mastering has long been known as a bit of a black art, which is why I am happy to have as much as possible done "under the hood" by Ozone. During the mix I use a variety of stuff including another Izotope product, Neutron Elements, which provides a dummy friendly approach to EQ, compression, etc.
One good thing about Ozone is that it allows you easily to master for streaming or CD, mostly a matter of loudness, since the streaming services are set to a certain overall loudness.
Posted By: JAPOV

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/01/21 11:17 AM

Gavin, lol... please believe me, if I underestimated you then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

You still haven't defined "dull", and "pop" just means hip-hop to me... Try to be specific, what exactly are you hearing in other recordings that you're not hearing in your own? Give us an example. If I'm lucky, I'll learn something here as well.

Here's an example... Gerry Cooper. He manages to create a really deep, rich, dynamic environment to work in that I haven't quite been able to achieve yet... Emphasis on "yet"! smile
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/01/21 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Im not crazy about ez piano either. If you're good with midi editing, you can basicly draw your own part, but its hard editing midi, especially if piano is not your instrument. But drums, dont even try to compare BIAB to EZ drums or Superior drummer


The drums are clearly much more intensively editable and disect-able on EZD than BIAB. But if you get the right "feel/style" picked in BIAB and set your fill markers in good places, BIAB does a pretty good job of delivering a drum track on my stuff.

I use the midi keyboard with EZ BASS because my songs are real easy and the bass lines that I play on the midi are McCartney-ish melodies on their own. The important thing for me is the tone and EZB gets a real good tone.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 03:12 AM

Im actually considering getting BIAB, the whole set. One reason is im lazy, Im feeling the daunting pressure of having to record my next group of songs, and I kid you not I have 40-50 of them. Half of them ony have lyrics for the chorus, or have one verse, but I know they are really strong songs if I can ever get them done.

The other reason is the amount of stuff I want to record, in the sake of time, i assume it wold be much faster calling up instant arrangements.. Once done I can take my top 10 and re do them and maybe release my bucketlist CD

But I did want to ask the sons of BIABS here a few questions.

Assuming I had the whole set. How do you manage knowing where to find the right bit at the right time? With EZ drummer i have a folder of all the drum fills I like, or that feel believable, some of them are like somebody trying to win a drum competetion so i avoid those

But id imagine with all the styles, genres, youd have a hard time keeping track of what you deem usable or not.

So help me out sons of BIABS, whats your method?
Posted By: Gavin Sinclair

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 04:13 AM

Somebody at BIAB has gone to a lot of trouble grouping the tracks into styles, so that is what I usually start with rather than combing through the thousands of tracks individually. So to begin with you have a group of instruments that match the kind of sound you have in mind, playing in a suitable style. You can tell it to add fills or you can add others from a non BIAB source like EZ Drummer in your DAW of course.
Someone else can probably help you more because my songs are all melody and lyric. They don't rely very heavily on drum fills and the like.
I think your reasons for considering BIAB are spot on.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 04:30 AM

Ive been listening to some of the songs on their showcase forum. Almost always, the ones that sound best are the ones where the singer is good. So it means more that the singer makes it better. And usually if you sing, you are a musician too, usually at some level, others who dont sing, probably bought biab to do the heavy lifting. So you can defintly tell who knows what they're doing or not. Then again, its a software to help songwriters, its not for making them performers.

But I like how some of them samples sound. You dont get many doing straight rock or even pop on there so its hard to judge. Ive heard some Americana and Heartland rock that sound pretty good, but i have to be honest I hate the way the drums in BIAB sound. seems everybody uses the same slapish snare...Id defintly use ez drums.

Im not sure im taking the plunge. But im considering it. It may help me get started, i find im looking at a blank piece of paper...so to speak, but i have so many ideas and full songs I want to do.
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 12:31 PM

The styles are categorized by genre, tempo etc but there is a lot of sorting and listening to be done. Like the EZs, if you like something you can designate it a favorite for later recall and use. That is helpful.

And there is usually going to be a big difference in result between someone using it with no personal experience with a musical instrument versus someone who has some. Musical ability matters when you are making music no matter what the medium and tools.

Personally I dont start a song with software. I start with a rhythm guitar and rough vocal as the skeletal structure and make a scratch track to build around. After I get the accompaniment instruments in, I may or may not keep the original guitar.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 01:28 PM

well, if you play guitar, it would stand to reason that when you choose your guitar samples, you're gonna be able to know what sounds reasonable, what sounds stupid. Some just trust whats there thinking nobody will know the difference. Goes for every instrument. Sometimes the solos are overblown, and the user doesnt know it, they think it sounds impressive.

Absolutely matters if you already play an instrument, and/or know music. As I said when you hear a good singer, you know the track is gonna be good, and vica versa

Even in some of the better ones, there are nuances that dont sound right, usually dynamics. When I use EZ drums I could work a whole complete day 24 hours putting in fills that seem authentic. Then when I replay and relisten i find im editing stuff. The Cymbals are always tricky

and Toontrack adverstises that their stuff is for songwriters, "meet your new cowriter" which is simply not true. Nobody is going to write good songs using their songwriting features, lol. You want the thing to write the chord progression, why not let it right the melody too?

My only fear is becoming reliant on it, i have 40-50 songs that were written away from ANYTHING, so I wouldnt be using BIAB to help me write songs. But down the road I dont want to be turning it on and saying ok, lets write a song,,,
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio


My only fear is becoming reliant on it, i have 40-50 songs that were written away from ANYTHING, so I wouldnt be using BIAB to help me write songs. But down the road I dont want to be turning it on and saying ok, lets write a song,,,


That comes down to personal philosophy. As I've said, a "good song" by definition, must sound good. Whatever arrives at that is fine with me.
Though my lyrics and message may not seem anything special to anyone else, they are my primary focus. The sonics are a vehicle to carry them forward.

With lyrics and message as the primary concern, I may be less concerned than you, as to exactly how the rest of the song was technically determined and created.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 02:01 PM

I agree with you, what is a song?...by defintion it's melody and lyric.

I mean you have to be recording SOMETHING, you're not recording NOTHING, at the end of the day your song is your melody and lyric.

BUT, arrangment, performance, production are all inexstricably linked . Imagine Stairway to heaven just strummed all the way through, none of that beautiful picking. Still be a nice song, but not the same. Imagine a halfway decent singer as opposed to Robert Plant. Still nice, but not the same...or ANY singer for that matter. Sometimes it seems there is only ONE singer to sing a song, you get so locked in on that.

And why is it that when people cover The Beatles, they NEVER sound better, even today.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 02:39 PM

John Mayer said the same thing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6VxBQnQkr0
Posted By: Gavin Sinclair

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 05:00 PM

FD, if you are thinking of taking the plunge, your timing is a little off. There is usually a big sale around Christmas and New Year.

I don't think you have to worry about becoming lazy and trying to get BIAB to write the song. I have never done that. I always come to it with lyric and melody already in my head, worked out on the piano or whatever. BIAB provides the backing. It also provides some surprisingly good instrumental solos. I was wary of those at first, but now I give them a shot and if I'm not blown away by them, I do it myself with midi.

I think maybe this is why the Americana demos sound good to you. The emphasis on melody and lyrics in that genre allows BIAB tracks to do their job backing up the singer. Strangely perhaps, BIAB seems to have started out with a strong emphasis on jazz and there are more styles labeled jazz than anything else.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 05:03 PM

Interesting find for me.

I logged into my old cakewalk account, and much like toontracks account button, once you log in, it shows a list of products you own.Seems theyve merged with something called bandlab, which is a program that allows you to record and then publish online.

I just discovered I have cakewalks drummer and bass and piano plug ins. This I believe goes back before toontrack was even invented. The drums look very similar to ez drums where the drums appear in the interface, and the parts can be dragged from the software into the daw. The bass is all midi grooves, which sound terrible, but its another program I now own, that can be used, I guess its similar to buying a new sound pack for ezdrums. I mean they make so many, from 70's funk, to 80's metal, to classic rock, the bass would just be something i could maybe use as a sound, theres not much there to use as a bass sequencer. I could play it on a keyboard if I wanted, or again, just using it as a sound platform. Theres also keyboards. I vaguely remember using this, and it had to be before 2014, cause i had to create a new account since i hadnt since 2014. More like early 2000's if I recall.

But interesting, more toys. Im guessing at the time these little programs were all the rage. Probably where toontrack got the ideas from

Have a look, look familiar?
https://www.cakewalk.com/Products/Studio-Instruments/Drums
https://www.cakewalk.com/Products/Studio-Instruments/Bass
https://www.cakewalk.com/Products/Studio-Instruments/Electric-Piano
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 06:23 PM

Gavin looks like we posted same exact time, amazing how often that happens, never saw your post

Yeah it sarted out as a jam buddy. I think there used to be tapes called music minus one, and if you played piano, it would have no piano in it and youd play with the tape. Then it got more sophisticated, but I believe BIAB first started as a way to practice, cause blues and jazz music is all about being able to play with an accompaniment, not worrying so much about being playing with a creative band. Its about chops, so it worked very well in blues and jazz, cause youd be ready to step in with a band at a gig if you were well practiced.

I think its use as a songwriters tool was an afterthought, and once they realized people were using it for that, they geared their efforts into making that better as well.

One of the reasons I like the Americana was the guitar sound, some of the rhythmic strums on guitar sound like real guitars, acoustics sound a bit dull. I guess working with it and eqing might help, there is still a flatness of all the music you deal with, but it by no means sounds bad

The dynamics are a problem, if you are coming to an end of a passage or measure, you are naturally playing lower and lower up to that part, or louder and louder to that part, to reach a spot where the dyanmics are different

So one of the things Im hearing is that constantness, same volume all the way through the song, which is not how music is played

Again, not sounding bad, just not what a real band would sound like, and good for generating ideas
Posted By: Vicarn

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 06:37 PM

The dynamics can be changed in your DAW with automated vol or gain changes (assuming your DAW can do that).
What BIAB can't do yet (as FD has brought up before) is play a solo based on melody although sometimes it can by accident.
Usually I stitch different parts of that together in my DAW to get the best I can.

Vic
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 06:51 PM

Yea Vic I was thinking of splitting the tracks up and putting them on different channels, so I can manually lower it live...like the days of tape, or just setting the volume lower on different channels, so when it gets to that part it will be forced to be lower cause it IS lower.

Ive done that with vocals before, sometimes you do a backing vocal and punch in, and for some reason one part is louder than the next, or might be louder in the second chorus than it is first. So splitting it worked. I guess you could also do all your splitting, and then ping pong it all onto one track so that all of it is consensed onto one track, all the volume fixes... of course subtle volume changes are cool.

So i guess there are ways around it, im just worried about having to do all this work, for something that shouldnt be that hard. Its extremely time consuming...recording in general. When lyricists ask for cowrites they have no idea how much work goes into it all
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by Vicarn
The dynamics can be changed in your DAW with automated vol or gain changes (assuming your DAW can do that).
What BIAB can't do yet (as FD has brought up before) is play a solo based on melody although sometimes it can by accident.
Usually I stitch different parts of that together in my DAW to get the best I can.

Vic



have you tried BIAB's "multi riff" function in your DAW?
Posted By: Gavin Sinclair

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Yea Vic I was thinking of splitting the tracks up and putting them on different channels, so I can manually lower it live...like the days of tape, or just setting the volume lower on different channels, so when it gets to that part it will be forced to be lower cause it IS lower.

Ive done that with vocals before, sometimes you do a backing vocal and punch in, and for some reason one part is louder than the next, or might be louder in the second chorus than it is first. So splitting it worked. I guess you could also do all your splitting, and then ping pong it all onto one track so that all of it is consensed onto one track, all the volume fixes... of course subtle volume changes are cool.

So i guess there are ways around it, im just worried about having to do all this work, for something that shouldnt be that hard. Its extremely time consuming...recording in general. When lyricists ask for cowrites they have no idea how much work goes into it all

All the tracks can (and should) be exported individually as .wav files into your DAW to process individually. No need to do all this stuff you are talking about.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 07:31 PM

Yes but each instrument has its own set of dynamics, and if youd like the muted guitar part to get gradually louder until it reaches the chorus, then the only way to do that is to make it louder in that part. One way would be splitting the track, and using different volumes on different channels, to give the illusion of the guitar changing volumes.

Id have to hear the tracks seperately to hear how they sound, it might be that some are a good fit without doing anything others, no. Same thing with ezdrums. I find that as longas you dont try to overkill it, it sounds pretty damn natrual. Then you can adjust your playing volume on the guitar or harmonica as you record.

Just trying to see how to do that with pre recorded instrument parts.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 07:40 PM

I just heard this song, somebody had it on in their car while washing it...

Great pop song, listen to the volume changes, particularly right before the chorus, your trying to build to a power spot, and then back down

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ElORM9O-0U
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 07:41 PM

I suggest....

Go with default settings in BIAB. They are well set.
Work in your DAW and drag and drop BIAB wavs onto the DAW tracks
Once all your tracks are there and you are ready to mix, remove any plugins...and gain stage the tracks to a minus 10-12.
Then mix and add the plug-ins back (or re-engage them) keeping your meters around a minus 6 or a little higher as you go.

If you dont know what gain staging is...you are working in a messy environment that is often working against itself.
It will cost much less time to learn what gain staging is and use it , than clean up the messes.
Posted By: Gavin Sinclair

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 07:48 PM

FD. I must be missing something. You have an instrument track in your DAW. You want it to grow louder in a certain part. You gradually increase the volume there and reduce it when you want it to be quieter. You don't need to split it into different channels to do that. The volume of a particular channel is not fixed.
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio


Just trying to see how to do that with pre recorded instrument parts.


Basic stuff...automation.

Can do it graphically or ride faders.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 07:56 PM

Gavin, yes but how are you doing the volume changing, Vic said there is an automated function the daw to do it. Ive never used it, I have played volume changes to best of my ability. But working with fixed volumes in BIAB might be challenging.

Obviously all the tracks have to be seperate, otherwise when you raise the guitar, the piano would go up too

Just mulling how well gradually changing the volume digitally will fare
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 08:03 PM

Dynamics you say?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBG7P-K-r1Y
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
automated function the daw to do it.

Just mulling how well gradually changing the volume digitally will fare


The automated function is basic. It is "automation."
search...automation and riding the faders.
Posted By: Gavin Sinclair

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Gavin, yes but how are you doing the volume changing, Vic said there is an automated function the daw to do it. Ive never used it, I have played volume changes to best of my ability. But working with fixed volumes in BIAB might be challenging.

Obviously all the tracks have to be seperate, otherwise when you raise the guitar, the piano would go up too

Just mulling how well gradually changing the volume digitally will fare

In my DAW (Mixcraft), it is simply a question of clicking on the track where you want to change the volume. A little dot appears and you can move that dot up or down to increase or decrease volume by your desired number of dBs. I imagine it's pretty much the same in other DAWs.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 08:15 PM

Ok, but I dont think you guys are rockers lol

I think when you slow down or speed up, you are also changing the tone of the part,not just the volume. Your fingers may not hit all the strings of the chord in different parts. Theres all kinds of subtties that its doubtful BIAB could emulate, but the question is are we asking it to do all that, shouldnt be.

Ive got some thinking to do, wheres my toilet paper.....
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 08:15 PM

Here is a 58 second video describing automation....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwcwngMkSzI
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/02/21 08:24 PM

Shew nobody go in there for a while ok>?

Sounds good Marty, Ive never used that stuff, the last daw I really worked with was Magix, i got it cause i liked the round knobs that mimicked a real console, ive also used cakewalk, but ive never considered that stuff cause I never had to. Ez Drummer i can do all that myself just in the program itself, playing guitar I can do it myself.

But its good to know thats there, im probably gonna need a new daw, i have cakewalk and magix
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/03/21 03:24 AM

I found I also have Steinbergs cubase, that came with guitar rig, when I used to use that. Nice simple software

And Im learning that many people are able to get Cakewalks studio instruments package free, I think it may come with bandlab, I dont recall it costing alot of money, and is not very good anyway, but still pisses you off its free now.
Posted By: Vicarn

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/03/21 10:43 PM

I forgot to say, it seems that if biab like what you post on their forum they give you an award.
I received mine after posting 4 songs in the latter part of 2020. The award was the 2021 new biab release for free. When I told them I'd already bought the 2021 audiophile update they refunded what I had paid which was about 300 or $400.
How neat is that for customer service?

Vic
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/03/21 11:36 PM

Thats cool, it beats a pat on the back. And probably pays for itself over and over again cause alot of people probably check out that forum. I remember years ago checking that forum out and everything was amateur and hacky sounding. It has gotten better. could be that the ones who werent doing well with it gave up!

Good business, means something to you. Yeah tell me about it, customer service these days is non existent
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/04/21 03:16 AM

This is getting absolutely crazy, I know this has been around a while, but I prefer playing electrici dont consider myself a good acoustic player, and just for convenience, think about how you need to be isoloated and really know how to mic an acoustic, and then theres just getting started, lay down a fast acoustic track from this, and work around that, Then use ez drums...

Im just floored how good this is, and guys...its better than BIAB, although BIAB has everything in one unit

crazy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYmUhrdor6g
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/04/21 01:07 PM

That has a great sound. But it is essentially one timbre of sound. The company that makes it makes many virtual instruments.
But it is not as complex or as evolved as BIAB. This particular software appears to be a virtual instrument. BIAB blends multiple virtual instruments ("real tracks") achieving convincing accompaniments and solos. Your attitude about BIAB was formed years ago when you bought a copy and does not reflect what BIAB has become and importantly, is becoming.

Nonetheless...Native Instruments Komplete has a lot of real good stuff. Thanks for posting. I had never looked at their acoustic guitar VSTs.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/04/21 01:52 PM

Oh I beg to differ about the complexity. The whole thing is one specific instrument, strummed acoustic, they have picked acoustic too, being just like toontrack where they have to make you buy everything. The humanizing effects, fret noise (sometimes fret noise sounds stupid), chord changing spaces and noises, and with 160 different patterns, all of which can be found again, or tweaked , its doubtful youd run into a case where your forcing your song to fit IT, as opposed to IT fitting your song. The thing about strumming an acoustic, it only needs to be a sound enhancer, adding nice twelve string or strummed martins into the mix will never hurt it and give it a fuller sound than without it.

Throwing ez piano into the mix often fails because number one, you cant find a pattern that fits your groove, number two, you usually need piano to play melody, and accompany the melody of the song, at least when the piano player is good. You dont really have that option.

Strummed acoustic guitar will always fit any song cause its just a wall of sound, Im intrigued about the possibility of this.

You also between the picking one and the strumming pretty much can get an acoustic vocal demo, on que, very easily. I could knock off alot of songs quickly just as g/v and it will sound great.

I think its more focused on one instrument, just as ez drums which makes it better than BIAB. Im not against BIAB, It does sound good, I just think when its geard to one instrument its more comprehensive.

As I mentioned im not finding ez piano or really ez bass to be as forgiving.... mainly because there just isnt enough patterns and feels to cover you, you end up sacrificing how you envision it, for their take.

Again, I dont think thats a problem with strummed acoustic guitars. Even their electric guitars sound good, but youd run into problems with limitations like you do with any chorded instrument that also plays melody, and I find its more groove drivin. It will play a riff, and then you try to follow it with everything else....yeah, but when I wrote the song in the park with my acoustic, I wasnt hearing that..

It may come down to me using different things for different purposes. I think Biabs main advantage is that if you DONT KNOW how you want your song to feel or be played, it will play it for you anyway without having an idea. But based on demos Ive heard, I can tell there is still alot of compromising going on. I heard a demo the other day, it sounded EXACTLY like U2. First thing I said was, ok, hes using a u2 preset...lol. That's where it gets tacky and hacky, . thats not what you anybody should be using it for. Im like who is covering "Where The Streets Have No Name?"

Of course its a bit of a leap of faith, if I buy strummed acoustics 2, i probably should get 1 since thats the source program, then id probably need finger picking and flat picking ones, just to mix with strumming.

Then I believe you need the controller they provide just to make it easier to use.

but hey...press one note, the root of your chord, and it plays the whole chord, and you can voice the chord however you want.

But this could easily turn into a thousand dollar investment considering i probably need a pre amp, monitors, new mic

I think BIABS advantage is it all comes as one, even the recording software. im surprised they havent made a bundle that includes a pre amp, mic, monitors, headphones.

Alot of work no matter what, but unless I do something, these songs spinning in my head will never get out of my head!
Posted By: Gavin Sinclair

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/04/21 02:23 PM

The Native Instruments guitars do sound great, particularly the picked acoustic for the kind of thing I write. I have the free version of the Kontakt player which is compatible with this. It work as a VST plug in in the DAW. However, I think the keyboard would certainly help to get the most out of this, and that's a $1,049 investment. Does anyone here use Native Instruments without the keyboard?
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/04/21 02:43 PM

[quote=Fdemetrio]

Oh I beg to differ about the complexity.

[/quote

Contrary facts have never stopped you from arguing on, so I dont see why they would now. It really doesnt matter much anyway. If you want to believe a single instrument vst has more complexity than BIAB...so be it.

The day is steadily approaching when the instruments in BIAB all have this level of articulation as well as algorithms to compose them into convincing band sections.
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/04/21 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Gavin Sinclair
The Native Instruments guitars do sound great, particularly the picked acoustic for the kind of thing I write. I have the free version of the Kontakt player which is compatible with this. It work as a VST plug in in the DAW. However, I think the keyboard would certainly help to get the most out of this, and that's a $1,049 investment. Does anyone here use Native Instruments without the keyboard?


I dont. I looked at Native Instruments when I was shopping for strings, because the strings VST in my DAW was so fake sounding. I ended up buying Hollywood Strings ($99) and am happy enough with it for what I do.

The NI stuff clearly is better and much more elaborate, but it's capacity would mostly be wasted on me and my little songs.
And the cost of getting into it...for me...was probably not money well spent.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/04/21 04:00 PM

Gavin, Im pretty sure you could use any midi controller, it just be a matter of knowing what keys do what. I know enough about piano to know what notes im playing so it doesnt hinder me there.

Im POSITIVE that the controller is a waste of money, now that you mention its a thousands by it self. Just go to the dollar store, get some colored stickers and put them on the keys. But it would probably become second nature after a while

No way would I pay 1000 for the controller. Does this program run in a daw as a vst? Do you have to own kontact?

Posted By: Gavin Sinclair

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/04/21 04:30 PM

FD, I was wrong about the keyboard. The $1,049 is for their top of the line version. They go as low as $139.
https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/bundles/komplete-kontrol/

Here's a good video comparison.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua6zxWHoxm8

I think you can use any midi keyboard but theirs are set up to make it easy to use software features directly from the keyboard.
.
To answer your other questions, there is a difference between the controller (which is software) and the keyboard, which provides a convenient way to use the software. There is a free version of the software, KONTAKT PLAYER which would allow you to use many of the instruments, including these guitars, but not all as third party instruments often require the paid version KONTAKT 6, if I remember correctly.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/04/21 04:47 PM

ok that makes sense, probably the high tagged one is for piano players who need all 88 keys cause they are playing it themselves. In this case we are just using it as a trigger. 139 is what any midi controller would cost so would be worth it for all the ease built it.

All im really concerned with is the strummed acoustic maybe picked. And id have the option of playing in single notes for hooks, riffs.

This is a no brainer, I OWN this.

But it may come down to using multiple brands of stuff, its funny how none of them are good at everything. Opens the market for other companies. Toontrack excels at drums, they just realised superior drummer 3, which i dont even wanna look at it. the bastards constantly come out with something new that you cant live without out, brilliant marketers.

Heres my band. EZ on drums, me on Vocals and electric guitar. NI on acoustic guitars, Me playing guitar into ez bass, to essentially create a bass line myself, unless i get lucky and find a preset that fits.

Piano im very picky about, might get somebody to help me...ie fiverr,

but the supergroup is being assembled!
Posted By: John Voorpostel

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/04/21 06:21 PM

Are people here Mac or Windows users?

Just wondering if using macs for music is more prevalent

Computers for me means business and Windows and not recording music

Do record on a Tascam Portastudio and via smartphone video...so you can tell my extent is amateur at best

Like FD said earlier on, not sure I want to devote time, money, effort etc into learning something new.

Did buy BIAB for the iPad which was cool...but this Native Intruments stuff is amazing....
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/04/21 06:53 PM

No my actual concern was learning BIAB, which only gives me expertise in BIAB, doesnt make me a better musician, songwriter, etc, where that expertise can be used in anything else.. it's kind of like learning how to install satelitte dishes only, if you change jobs and install cable or roku, your experience as a dish installer doesnt really help.

Everyday were learning something new, my point was specific to learning a software, but if you bought a new software next year, youd be starting all over again.

No matter what you do there is a learning curve, I just dont want to be a master of BIAB.

They use to say that Mac was better for recording music, I think the tech is so good, it doesnt really matter. Some people record on their cell phones.

But alot of people get into it and dont know how music works, ive seen and heard people trying to make songs out of loops and samples and it almost always sounds like chit. Gotta learn what a chord is before you can make a great recording.

Unless you play Punk Rock, but then you better make up for it with attitude and entertainment.
Posted By: John Voorpostel

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/05/21 08:56 PM

The issue with Mac and Windows is....or was.... software. BIAB was not available for Windows for years and though I expect Windows has lots available now, maybe the better ones are still Mac????
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/05/21 09:26 PM

Yeah its totally available for windows. You can get the whole package on external hard drive. I cant speak to Mac, ive never owned one, I did inherit an ipad from my nephew who outgrew his...lol but thats about the closest i came to understanding mac

I do know its always been said mac was better for artistic stuff, graphic design, music, photography, but I dont think anybody here who uses BIAB also uses a mac, I might be wrong. If Anything, I would have one windows based pc devoted to music, another for everyday stuff.

If you write lyrics and need an instant cowriter, arranger, fun time with your songs, BIAB is more than suffice, and will probably make you feel like a world class producer. The best oart of it is easy to use. As far as I know, no other software allows you to type in a chord (You do have to know what a chord is, and what chords your song is using or wants to use) If some of the more complex software had that feature it be one hell of a combo.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/05/21 09:36 PM

Marty, Ive been wrestling with EZ bass, I came across this instructinal video, which shows you how to basicly write the bass line in the grid editor, without having to play it at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X1SEqcoDL4

My beef has been, if I play the guitar, which then converts to midi so ez bass can use it, Im not taking advantage of the pro player who played the bass, its ME playing it, im just borrowing their sound. Again, drums, i can use presets and edit, so that Im not playing anything, a real pro drummer played it.

I just dont know why they assume all bass lines are locked in with the kick drum. Yeah, if you go Boom, Boom, Boom Boom, thats two kick drums two snares. But what if your bass is playing 8th notes, over same drum pattern, much different than locking it in.

it just SEEMS to me all this software from many companies are all groove oriented. And they are REALLY designed to make you write your song TO the stuff they provide, and not as much to make their parts TO your song.

Its like im not buying this stuff to help me write songs, im buying it to help me arrange them

the grid technique is interesting, you get the real player playing it, BUT, disadvantage is you have to come up with your own bass line and edit it into the midi. I guess much easier to do it with single notes than chords.

Just gets annoying where they assume drums and bass are one in the same. they are not.
Posted By: JAPOV

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/05/21 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
it just SEEMS to me all this software from many companies are all groove oriented. And they are REALLY designed to make you write your song TO the stuff they provide, and not as much to make their parts TO your song.

Its like im not buying this stuff to help me write songs, im buying it to help me arrange them


Bingo!... I purchased the $99 version of BIAB back in November, used it once for a piano track and gave it back. BIAB gave me no control over phrasing, and limited what samples I could use by "style/genre". Ultimately, I was dissatisfied with the sound... I found myself re-arranging my mix to accommodate the "character" of the piano.

GB/LogicX on Mac are very MIDI intensive, if you can at least play chords on a keyboard then you're all set. If you play an E-kit it gets even better, but you can also program drum parts with a keyboard. Or, use the pre-programmed patterns to "block out" your arrangement, then edit. I like GB/LogicX because it an easy to use, all in one program. It already has every "effect/plugin" you can possibly imagine, and allows you to create and store your own. It has arpeggiators that you can program and play any way you can imagine, you can even double them up, but....lol, no... Mac will not play your instruments for you.
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/05/21 11:38 PM

Thanks for the information FD.

My songs are so simple, that it is pretty easy to knock a bass line out on the midi and then clean it up in the midi editor. What I really like about EZB is the tones. They are so much better than my DAW bass. Much more melodic with a lot of variations. When I hit the midi keys too hard, the strings even rattle.

I agree with you completely that most VSTs follow chords to closely. I spent hours trying to get a good result on piano from EZ KEYS. I've sliced and diced and tried suspended chords and on and on, yet cannot escape getting something that sounds somewhat lifelessly tied to the chord progression. That's what I like about BIAB. I bought it primarily for piano and steel petal guitar. It does a pretty good job of sounding like a real solo. I usually have to cut and paste some, but not too much.

In just a few years, I suspect that they will all be great at producing solos and accompaniments.
Posted By: JAPOV

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/05/21 11:50 PM

I you're looking for a quick easy tool to simply help you with arrangements, check this out...

http://www.chordpulse.com/

I like the pure simplicity of it. I didn't even have to read the instructions lol, if you've ever played with the rhythm section on a keyboard you can master this little program in 30min! I find that it allows me to focus completely on chord progression and song structure without even touching an instrument or messing with a DAW. What's really cool is once you've chosen your chords and blocked out your song in pages (intro-verse-chorus-etc..) you can then press play and change tempo or style on the fly. Or, loop a particular section of your song and experiment with different chords. Don't expect great sounds though, it's not designed for that. It even sounds like a cheep casio you would find at walmart lol. However, it exports midi files for your DAW or a real keyboard. Comes with a 14 day free trial, doesn't hog computer resources, no adds, and only costs $29.00.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/05/21 11:54 PM

Japov, that is a problem no matter what software you get. The assumption is, "you have no capablilty to create music, so use ours, and write a song over it" My stuff is not overly complex, im not asking for miracles, im asking that when I come to the software WITH my song, theres something there for me to use. I mean some of these things they have riffs built in. Now how the hell are you going to use a riff from a software, and call it your song. And then post it online, and notice 5 other people have the same riff in their song lol

Drums I cant complain one bit about. I can literally come to ez drums, and it will support...with alot of work, ANYTHING i write or hear in my head. Not the case with other instruments. I thought bass might be more forgiving cause you only need one note at a time, but again, you go into the files. pull something out, change the chords, but it just doesnt seem to fit.

Its almost like they want you to use everything they have, and it will all sound fine, cause they are built to be use with each other.

Im excited about NI's acoustic, as i mentioned I think strumming a guitar works for just about anything. Its not going to get in the way or stand out as not seeming like it belongs in the song.

For other stuff, it may come down to meticulously editing everything, which begs the question..."do I spend 24 hours editing a bass line, or do I get somebody to play it, and be done in 15 minutes, and better.

Or, taking the time out to improve my musician skills so I can play all those instruments. Either way its an investment in time.
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/05/21 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by JAPOV
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
it just SEEMS to me all this software from many companies are all groove oriented. And they are REALLY designed to make you write your song TO the stuff they provide, and not as much to make their parts TO your song.

Its like im not buying this stuff to help me write songs, im buying it to help me arrange them


Bingo!... I purchased the $99 version of BIAB back in November, used it once for a piano track and gave it back. BIAB gave me no control over phrasing, and limited what samples I could use by "style/genre". Ultimately, I was dissatisfied with the sound... I found myself re-arranging my mix to accommodate the "character" of the piano.

GB/LogicX on Mac are very MIDI intensive, if you can at least play chords on a keyboard then you're all set. If you play an E-kit it gets even better, but you can also program drum parts with a keyboard. Or, use the pre-programmed patterns to "block out" your arrangement, then edit. I like GB/LogicX because it an easy to use, all in one program. It already has every "effect/plugin" you can possibly imagine, and allows you to create and store your own. It has arpeggiators that you can program and play any way you can imagine, you can even double them up, but....lol, no... Mac will not play your instruments for you.


My version of BIAB was about $400, I think. It was their 2nd or 3rd tier offer. It was a special that they told me offered all of their entire library, with some limitations of some kind.

I cannot phrase the piano solos and wish I could.

What I can do is pick a style and then set a few parameters concerning how closely it will follow the chords and vary the notes durations. Then I can use a function called multi-riff which spits out seven variations on a solo at a click . Sometimes they are pretty bad but once in a while they are pretty good. And if they are pretty good , I can usually do a little cutting and pasting between the seven variations and end up with a convincing result.

I've been working on a song for going on 3 months. Most of the time is spent watching instructional videos about how to use the software. I completed an 8 bar piano solo in BIAB that I really like. I'm going to send it as a guide to NashvilleTrax and see if a real player can improve on it. I'll post it up when done. You can issue your own verdict. smile

Sidenote: I tried using EZ KEYS to embellish a piano solo that I banged out on the midi. I watched a video where you load in a midi of your playing and then assign EZK parameters that embellish it. Sounded like crap. But maybe one day.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/06/21 12:00 AM

Marty, the notion that your songs are simple and dont require anything, is the wrong assumption.

There's tons of music, tons of songs that are three chords, it doesnt mean you want [naughty word removed] recordings of them. And dont equate a simple song to [naughty word removed].

None of us are writing Jazz opuses.... or Conciertos.

All the complaints I have are about the SOUND. it all comes down to how it sounds, whether its because you had to play it yourself, or were forced to change the rhythm of your song, because they had nothing to offer you. I suspect that happens to people alot, they assume the software knows more than they do, and go with an arrangememnt that doesnt have the same feel they were looking for

But 3 chord songs still have a feel, and have a quality to the playing, and most of all, sound good.

Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/06/21 12:07 AM

Fd

The song that I am working on now is truly easy. I played a melodic baseline on the midi and recorded through EZB. So simple that I got it in a couple of passes. And then midi editing was just cleaning up my timing and adjusting the velocities. Just a few minutes. The bass line comes way forward in the song that I am currently writing. It provides a secondary melody to the song. I am very happy with what EZB did.

For me it was easier than getting a bass player and the result is fine. Thanks for bringing it up around here. Prompted me to buy it.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/06/21 12:18 AM

I bought it myself and recomended it cause I was a believer in their stuff. The drums are great. I then got ez keys which I did about 10 songs with, I had posted them here years ago, with just piano and drums. Sound is good, its just the versatility. People were commenting, I think that piano needs some changes in the song... Ya think? You mean the player is not supposed to play the same 8 bar passage all the way through the song...

I was excited about EZ bass, i havent given up on it. Yeah I could play bass guitar, on bass, on guitar, or keyboard, and it wont suck...but at the same time, it wont be professional. If all guitar players were automatically bass players, we wouldnt need bass players.

.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/06/21 01:00 AM

I still have the piano demos I made, im gonna post some, after listening they sound pretty good, just not done.

I think two of them the piano is a perfect match, one the piano just would not behave how I wanted, and the other was just a repating loops cause I couldnt find anything else that worked with it.

Posted By: Gavin Sinclair

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/07/21 03:18 AM

The original subject of this thread concerned songs that sound fine through headphones but sound less so through some speakers. This video provides some interesting insights. One thing he explains (at 4:30) that I hadn't thought of is how with headphones your right ear hears nothing that your left ear hears and vice versa, whereas in a room with speakers both ears are hearing everything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPJ0ebMBN50
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/07/21 03:35 AM

Yeah thats a good point, you ears also hear the room the song is playing in. Headphones might create an illusion for your brain.

But it always amazes me how even when I hear music out of an ancient alarm clock I still have, one tiny speaker, a song can still be enjoyable to listen to. Its all in the mastering I guess
Posted By: JAPOV

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/07/21 07:30 AM

He makes a major point @6:05 about reference, but doesn't really get into it...

I've been collecting lots of equipment over the years... In Atlanta I had three sets of speakers and three different amps all running at the same time in my garage, and I was always wondering why I couldn't make a decent recording lol smile
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/07/21 01:00 PM

Headphones are good for putting a song together. But to hear it well, and putting the stereo field out in front of you...good monitors are necessary.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/07/21 01:30 PM

The room in which you are mixing and mastering also matters. Pro studios are all treated acoustically.

The recording world is all going internal, yet, where you hear it changes the whole sound. Listening in your car will sound different than listening in your room, or your basement, or your garage, or in a club, a bar, a concert hall
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/07/21 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
The room in which you are mixing and mastering also matters. Pro studios are all treated acoustically.

The recording world is all going internal, yet, where you hear it changes the whole sound. Listening in your car will sound different than listening in your room, or your basement, or your garage, or in a club, a bar, a concert hall



I know but such considerations are somewhat rhetorical for home recorders. A low cut (-80) will take out a some back ground noise. Mics often have high pass filters also. Mics that we are likely to use are not going to have the sensitivity to go way out into the room and pic up reverberations. As a home recorder, If you are in a room that is so reverberant that "the room" is an issue...then you are in the wrong room.

But the issue at hand is headphones and clarity. And the point at hand is headphones...I think... I read over and over is that headphones can be real good but the size of the speakers etc, makes them inferior to listening to good monitors. Before I bought muy monitors, I went to GCenter and tested several that were down in the $400 price range and slightly above. That day in that store Yamaha HS5s were obviously clearer than the others. The reason I bought them is that I had upgraded my headphones to a pretty good quality over the ones that I had...and there was very little difference when mixing. The Yamahas are dramatically different.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/07/21 02:55 PM

Alot of things get a pass cause "its home recording". Yet when I post a demo of two instruments, I get reviews about the mix... LMAO

I think i brought up the room cause the youtube video talking about headphones....thats all

I used to own Alessis (whatever happened to that company?) usb monitors, I think they cost 100-150 at the time. Then at GC a guy told me that that unless you get really good/expensive monitors, you might as well use computer speakers.

Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/07/21 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Alot of things get a pass cause "its home recording". Yet when I post a demo of two instruments, I get reviews about the mix... LMAO

I think i brought up the room cause the youtube video talking about headphones....thats all

I used to own Alessis (whatever happened to that company?) usb monitors, I think they cost 100-150 at the time. Then at GC a guy told me that that unless you get really good/expensive monitors, you might as well use computer speakers.



The GC guy was wrong. The HS series is genuinely good. The low range of good, but good.

As for your reviews...home recordings by ammys cannot be as good as studio recordings by skilled and talented audio techs. BUT...that doesnt mean that they cant be improved upon or have to settle for some self imposed ceiling. The youtube universe and company support sites offer years of education to people who want to take advantage of it....for free.

MZ provided proof that a home recorder can get very good results.
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/07/21 03:35 PM

Bonus tip...

This guy...imho...offers very good insight into the artistry of audio recording. Seems to be talking the "real deal"...to me.
He taught me a technique for isolating and actually hearing compression. He has many videos, other than this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9aDCLUDomg
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/07/21 03:50 PM

So if im understanding correctly, the goal is to be good enough to share with people who are doing the same exact thing, and never have the recording, production go anywhere or do anything. So the process of recording, is the reward?

Ok, but then why does it matter if it sounds this good, that good, needs this, that? Back when songs were the focus, i guess it was the same, nobodies songs were doing anything anyway, it was just conversation fodder.

But, its alot of dough, and time, and effort, and work, from pen to master, for such a small reward/goal

For me, i want to release a CD, but before any recordings matter, the songs, performances, arrangements have to be there.

I usually look for that first before I comment on anything production wise. You wont read a comment of mine saying "you need this on that" when the demo is about as bad as it gets for everything else. lol. Why comment on the EQ of the bass when the bass in the track is never going to be the track used in anything commercial.

Its kind of like saying... "Use these pretty garbage bags to throw out all your loose papers and junk." and then people commenting on the bags.."lovely bags, what a wonderful display of garbage you have here" LOLLLLL

Im being facetious, but I think goals matter, and should be stated

Plus, by the time you buy everything, and keep upgrading, it becomes an expensive hobby, albeit a fun one
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/07/21 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
So if im understanding correctly, the goal is to be good enough to share with people who are doing the same exact thing, and never have the recording, production go anywhere or do anything. So the process of recording, is the reward?

Ok, but then why does it matter if it sounds this good, that good, needs this, that? Back when songs were the focus, i guess it was the same, nobodies songs were doing anything anyway, it was just conversation fodder.

But, its alot of dough, and time, and effort, and work, from pen to master, for such a small reward/goal

For me, i want to release a CD, but before any recordings matter, the songs, performances, arrangements have to be there.

I usually look for that first before I comment on anything production wise. You wont read a comment of mine saying "you need this on that" when the demo is about as bad as it gets for everything else. lol. Why comment on the EQ of the bass when the bass in the track is never going to be the track used in anything commercial.

Its kind of like saying... "Use these pretty garbage bags to throw out all your loose papers and junk." and then people commenting on the bags.."lovely bags, what a wonderful display of garbage you have here" LOLLLLL

Im being facetious, but I think goals matter, and should be stated

Plus, by the time you buy everything, and keep upgrading, it becomes an expensive hobby, albeit a fun one



The "goal" is for the sound to be as good as it can be.
No point in going down side-streets and rabbit-holes.
Posted By: Gavin Sinclair

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/07/21 04:02 PM

You have a point about goals, FD. Mine are pretty modest. However, it is possible to make a recording sound pretty decent without spending a whole lot of time and money. Not up to a professional recording in most cases, although I have heard some here that were that good, but it makes it easier to appreciate the song's potential. I don't enjoy the technical aspects but I have found some inexpensive and quick ways to make a recording more presentable. If you have too many bags of money cluttering up your garage you can get all this done professionally smile I will probably do that with a couple of songs, maybe more and end up with a few boxes of CDs sitting in my garage where all those sacks of money used to be.
Posted By: Gavin Sinclair

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/07/21 04:10 PM

Back to monitors and headphones. It seems to me that GC guy had things wrong. The whole point of monitors is not to enhance the listening experience but to give you a better handle on how your song will sound across a variety of playback devices in the real world, or at least give you confidence that it will sound OK on them all, even the crappiest. To this end they dispense with the frills and give you a pure, undoctored sound that can only be enhanced by real world speakers and headphones. If I've got that wrong, can someone put me right?
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/07/21 04:12 PM

I think goals help the listener and the maker. Back when songs were the focus, i remember an old woman who used to frequent the site. She was writing as a hobby. And it used to piss me off when Id see morons commenting on her mix...she needed a desser on the vocals, and this and that. Are you serious? The poor woman actually annoucned she was leaving the site, and never came back. Something like "You all have been very kind and encouraging, but most of you are real musicians, which I am not (Alot of people were NOT..lol)

What a classy lady too, she never threw mud on anybody, she probably just thought, what world am I living in...

But thats when I first discovered the stupidity of the incessant focus on things that YOU may be interested in but not everybody is.

I always thought forums for SERIOUS SONGS, SERIOUS RECORDINGS were in order, instead of a mixed bag of everything.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/07/21 04:21 PM

Yeah Gavin, Monitors main job is to make you NOT notice them. Designed for a flat response that is considered the true sound, not enhanced by nice stereo equpitment.

But if you sit in a room with no rugs, bad bouncing walls, you can have the nicest monitors in the world, it wont work

Surrouding your work area with acoustic curtains, is something to consider
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/07/21 04:44 PM

The primary purpose of monitors is to bring as much clarity as possible to each and every frequency in the audio mix and give the mixer concise knowledge of what is in the sound...piece by piece. So that mixer can make informed decisions regarding composition, eq'ing etc.

A secondary purpose of audio monitors is to represent the real world sound. I used to record at a studio here in town with 3 studios, a mixing room and a mastering suite. In the mixing room were 4 speakers. I was told that 2 of the speakers cost 6K and the other two cost 1K (Yamahas). The engineer explained that when he was really digging into the song and "splitting hairs," he would listen to the 6ks. When he was finishing up and wanted to hear more of a real world sound, "random car" sound, he would flip a switch to the Yamahas and make adjustments before calling it done. As I sat and looked on, he went back and forth several times.
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/07/21 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Yeah Gavin, Monitors main job is to make you NOT notice them. Designed for a flat response that is considered the true sound, not enhanced by nice stereo equpitment.

But if you sit in a room with no rugs, bad bouncing walls, you can have the nicest monitors in the world, it wont work

Surrouding your work area with acoustic curtains, is something to consider


Misc acoustic "treatment" in a bad room will likely not do much.
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/07/21 05:30 PM

Gavin...

One suggestion...

In the room where you record, set up for a vocal track.
Test the track by singing a few bars.
Watch the meter and set the gain so that the sound registers -10 to -12 DB at peak. Try to sing in a way that maintains a fairly tight dynamic range.
Solo that track and put another meter on it and set it in record mode.

Watch the readout and see what it picks up when the room is inactive.
Go to the farthest point in the room away from the mic and softly snap your fingers to see if the needle jumps...then louder and louder.
Move around the room.

After doing that you will have a rough idea of how lively the room is and can act on it or not.

If it is lively, put an eq on the track and cut everything below 80 hertz. That will diminish some things like AC noise and computer fans.
Your mic may have a low-cut (high pass) switch that will do that also. If the low cut is helpful, it can be put on busses and the main silmilar to a limiter but for low frequency unwanted noise..

Sometimes "room noise" can be an issue of a mic being set too hot and picking up too much.

Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/07/21 05:43 PM

Martys the new Bob Clearmountain...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReLmGyyRv-M
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/07/21 06:03 PM

Actually Marty is the same old ClearMind.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/07/21 09:51 PM

It seems EZ bass is best used as a virtual instrument. I guess im gonna invest in a midi controller so I can use the play functions like slides .
I think the mistake was assuming the presets would be good enough. Gonna have to play it. It does sound great however you get there
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbfovHA23xs
Posted By: JAPOV

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 12:28 AM

Lol...

https://shop.fender.com/en-US/squie...series-precision-bass-pj/0370500506.html
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
It seems EZ bass is best used as a virtual instrument. I guess im gonna invest in a midi controller so I can use the play functions like slides .
I think the mistake was assuming the presets would be good enough. Gonna have to play it. It does sound great however you get there
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbfovHA23xs


You think? Is that why it is classified as a VST plug-gin? "Virtual Studio Technology." So...that whole midi thing has something to do with all that? Who knew?

In other news...the video that you found is the best that I have seem on EZB. I had no knowledge of all the triggers. They are more of a fascination for me than applicable because I will likely never need to use that level of sophistication for my stuff. Though, I'm going to give a go with the harmonics function on my current song.

Nonetheless...really great information. Nice to get such a well done video glimpse of the programs capacity. Great find. Thanks for posting.

Marty
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 12:57 AM




There is a cancer warning on that ad. How can you get cancer from a bass guitar?
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 01:18 AM

Marty, but the advertising...of EZBass is that it's patterns are song ready, much like drums are. Seems with drums, you get a chitload of patterns, then buy an expansion pack, you then get a completely different drum sound, PLUS more patterns. Its just not gonna be a problem. WIth Piano and Bass you could buy as many packs as you want, you will still have a hard time finding your feel

I initially thought it be a matter of finding a preset and then editing a bit. But the alternatives are creating a bass line in the grid editor, or playing it on guitar, converting to midi, or playing it on midi controller

I think Japovs bass went over Martys head. You could buy a bass though, and then face many challenges getting a good sound with it, then you need the right pre, the right software emulator, or buy a bass amp. But there are many ways to skin the cat
Posted By: JAPOV

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 01:20 AM

Yeah', all those sun worshippers in California blame everything they can for cancer lol...
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 01:43 AM

Back to BIAB...

Does the likelihood of it spitting out what you need increase over several takes? IS it worth downloading everything it puts out and then splitting the audio to get parts you need? Or does it ruin it splitting it?
Posted By: Gavin Sinclair

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 02:19 AM

FD. In a typical BIAB session I would do a number of verses and choruses. Each one will be a little different. Let's say I do four and there is drums, bass, guitar, piano. I would end up exporting 4 .wav files, each with 4 verses. You can split these in your DAW and use what you want. Sometimes the way it churned out the piano in verse 2 really just works great, better than verse 1, so you use that twice. That's a starting point. You can then get into splitting it up further and moving chunks around. Generally, they still fit musically, although not always.
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 03:07 AM

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Marty, but the advertising...of EZBass is that it's patterns are song ready, much like drums are. Seems with drums, you get a chitload of patterns, then buy an expansion pack, you then get a completely different drum sound, PLUS more patterns. Its just not gonna be a problem. WIth Piano and Bass you could buy as many packs as you want, you will still have a hard time finding your feel

I initially thought it be a matter of finding a preset and then editing a bit. But the alternatives are creating a bass line in the grid editor, or playing it on guitar, converting to midi, or playing it on midi controller

I think Japovs bass went over Martys head. You could buy a bass though, and then face many challenges getting a good sound with it, then you need the right pre, the right software emulator, or buy a bass amp. But there are many ways to skin the cat


If a person is a skillful pianist with a deep knowledge of musical theory, all of this audio/midi (interface) stuff was delivered to that person on a silver platter. A person with such skills (e.g. the person in the video) cannot only play any instrument that they want in this world, but they can singularly become a convincing symphony orchestra. Practice your keyboards. The patterns (piano rolls) were invented to make money off all the rest of us.

Japov's bass did go over my head.
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 03:10 AM

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Back to BIAB...

Does the likelihood of it spitting out what you need increase over several takes? IS it worth downloading everything it puts out and then splitting the audio to get parts you need? Or does it ruin it splitting it?


Search "BIAB MULTI RIFFS on YouTube.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 03:54 AM

I have before dont like it as much as you do. It still creating melodies based on itself, and not your song. Course, not having BIAB cant really give it a fair shake.

I think its inevitable, whats going to happen in the future, the details and control over playing in the other types of software, and then using an algorithm like BIAB, youd have the best of both worlds. Im surprised we dont have it already. NI for example, they have parts in the software but they are not creating anything.

Would be a nice combo
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 03:59 AM

To your other point, I agree, why is it whenever somebody is demonstrating a software, they are always playing themselves lol

Thats cause you can do a helluva lot more if you play it. Next theyll be showing us voice software and singing into it themselves

I can play piano very basicly. I can certainly play bass on the keyboard, and should have no problem using the controller. I used to program songs on a keyboard sequencer. And wasnt bad, it was like having a daw but away from a computer. The sounds werent as good, but thats normal
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 04:07 AM

Thanks Gavin for the info...
Posted By: Gavin Sinclair

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
I have before dont like it as much as you do. It still creating melodies based on itself, and not your song. Course, not having BIAB cant really give it a fair shake.

I think ts inevitable, whats going to happen in the future, the details and control over playing in the other types of software, and then using an algorithm like BIAB. Youd have the best of both worlds. Im surprised we dont have it already. NI for example, they have parts in the software but they are not creating anything.

Would be a nice combo

No, BIAB is not creating melodies. You have to bring that to it. I would never go into BIAB without a melody already fully formed. It has occasionally happened that I change it a little because I try a different chord and it leads me to another melodic idea. I have no problem creating melodies. The instruments I play with any degree of competence are purely melodic and I spend large parts of my day singing made up melodies to my dogs. They are very patient. BIAB provides the backing. That's all.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 04:19 AM

The riff feature does create melodies. But you enter the chords just like you would and it plays a riff based on the chord progression. Not on your song, so its essentially the same as picking a solo they provide. Although the riffs tend to be short runs used for intros and such
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
The riff feature does create melodies. But you enter the chords just like you would and it plays a riff based on the chord progression. Not on your song, so its essentially the same as picking a solo they provide. Although the riffs tend to be short runs used for intros and such


I know.

The way I use it...

I look for a single style that compliments the chords the best. That takes some time for me , because I am not that familiar with the styles in the program.
Once I find one, I make setting adjustments to it and try to get it "in the pocket" as much as possible.
Once that is done, I use multi-riffs and generate 7 variations at a time. I may end up doing this with 2 styles.
Once I get some that I like, I cut and paste along the chord changes until I get a single solo that I like more.

Recently, I was able to achieve something that did not feel locked to the chords but fairly natural and flowing.

I am going to send that off and see if a real good pianist can top it, but it works for the song if they dont.
That is pretty good for sitting at home with algorithms for a musical partner.
And getting better all the time.
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 01:16 PM

Ps....

What I havent looked into yet is exporting the finished real track multi riffs to midi files, so that I can contour the phrasing some in a midi editor.
If that is possible that would be another level of user control that enabled some degree of personal phrasing.

Also...I tried this approach with EZK but I could not arrive at anything that sounded unlocked from the chords and not stiff. I chopped the chords down to 1/8 notes in places and introduced suspended 4ths and add9s and some major 7ths but never got anything that sounded as natural as using BIABs multi riffs with some cutting and pasting.
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 02:03 PM

Regarding rooms...
Gregory addresses this in the video below. I only watched a few seconds of this because I gotta do something else right now, but whatever he says about the room is probably correct and insightful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvUgFlx-F4c
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 03:41 PM

Usually studio players have such good ears, they can hear it and copy it pretty easily, especially where its not buried on a mix and hard to hear.

The ultimate in software would be something semi intelligent. Tap in your melody, and it will create a variation of that based on algorithms. It seems fairly easy enough to do considering whats already been done. And I think it be a game changer for BIAB users especially.

How many times do I listen to a BIAB demo, and get so disconnected to the actual song because the intro not only doesnt pull me in, but often pulls me away. Its subtle, but playing a generic lead in to a specific melody weakens the focus of the song. Its like ok, what a waste of thirty seconds that was. Then they sing, and out of left field comes a supporting melody that is not very supporting, although it will fit in the key.

Its all about keeping the listener engaged.

Think of the intros to Desperado, Hotel California, Or ballads like Sometimes when we Touch, Your Song, not the same melody as the vocal, but a variation of it. I think it can create decent groove oriented riffs, ba dada da, ba dada da, in a rhtymic pattern, where then the bass and drums lock into it.

Funny I sang this at a company picnic many moon years ago. I was workin in the mail room of this big company, word got out I played and sang, I showed up with guitar and sang right in front of the president. He didnt make one face thrugh it all, but afterwords gave me a pat on the back, "just fantastic he says" lol. Im like you were listening?

Great tune, that descending bass line in the chorus would not be made by BIAB either. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVf940pO5ME

Wow this played right after...listen to the musical hook/intro, perfect'
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sometimes+love+aint+enough
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 04:00 PM

As discussed...

BIAB is a musical tool. The effectiveness of it will be subject to the sensibilities and musical understanding of the person using it. MZ gets a very good result. The guy in the EZB video would get a very good result. A rough strummer or somebody who doesn't play anything and just clicks on "The Melodist" and starts singing will get a disjointed result.

The gist for you...
It's a hell of a tool as of right now and getting better all the time. You should learn to use it and then ride with the upgrades. You would be glad that you did.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 04:06 PM

Mike did better on the songs where he wrote the music. And his vocals and backing vocals were the main reason the demos were worth it to somebody buying. He was a workin mans demo maker, no complaints what he did for folks. But the question would be, "Does somebody else think they can do it too?" Not if they cant sing, not if they dont understand music . Not if their melodies and lyrics are weak. Still comes down to the basics.

The demos he made sounded very respectable, and from what I hear was very reasonable prices. He knew at the end of the day it was a BIAB demo.

Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 04:20 PM

You can lead a horse to water...but you cant make it stop arguing non-constructively.
Your loss. I suggest a re-think.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 04:25 PM

Im spending lots of time figuring out what Im gonna do, im already hearing the arrangements as I air drum and whistle my tunes. Im just unsure if Ill be able to capture it, be nice to have a band.

Does it matter whos leading the horse? Or is it a forgone conclusion that the person leading the horse to water, has good vision, and sense,

Maybe the horse is alot smarter than the one leading.....
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 04:38 PM

Quoting Bill Clinton in his infamous deposition...

"I revert to my prior statement."
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 05:09 PM

One idea im tinkering with is using a drummer, bassist, keyboard player from fiverrr. Then taking their tracks and using them in toontracks stuff. Throw the drummer in ez drums, bassist, in ez bass, keys in ez keys.

It would get expensive to do all my songs like that, and Im gonna try other ways first to see if I get acceptable results, and get a multi million dollar recording deal.

But im never gonna record just to record, I believe you gotta have something good to record.
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 05:30 PM

I tried playing an easy piano accompaniment for a verse on the midi in the song that I am currently working on.
I recorded it in EZK and then exported to a midi file.
I then brought that midi file back into EZK and tried applying EZK styles and variations to the midi.

(Saw all this in a video)

My result was terrible. Just sounded like a mess with no connection to the original song.

If you give something like that a shot and get a good result...please let me hear it and share how you did it.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 07:38 PM

Im not sure why that would be other than stuff inside ezkeys is more than just midi. It seems like that shouldnt happen. I guess youd have the same problem exporting drums, and then bringing it back to midi. I do know that if you bring in other midi parts from other sources it works fine.

In the piano on EZ there are many different nuanced sources of editing. Like consider the tuning box, the foot pedals. It may be that EZ is working different than standard midi. Maybe there is coding difficulties.

But I spoke with a drummer who plays drums for people online. He said he can save his files two ways. Compressed, mixed, and ready to be used down to two stereo tracks. Or he can save it uncompressed, unmixed and allow me to use the tracks in any software I want. At first I thought, well I dont know what the hell im doing, might as well let him send me finished stuff, but then theres EZ drums and their mixing software which could take alot of the guess work out.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 08:04 PM

Wait you said you played it yourself, saved and exported to midi ...?

Well i dont know how how that is even possible, You played one thing on keys, and tried to get it to play something different.

WHere is the video on that, it doesnt seem possible, the arrangements in EZ are preset patterns, your playing your own thing...

Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 08:07 PM

Not the point.

The midi to the original track brought back in to EZK plays fine. Sounds just like when I recorded it to begin with.
But when I start trying to embellish it by applying styles and variations to it...it doesnt go well.
This guy in a video got a good result with a jazz piece but I couldnt get a good result with mine.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 08:16 PM

So you recorded a piano track, saved to midi, brought it back into ez keys and tried to add it to existing presets?

Dont know how that worked for the guy either. The ability of ez keys to play styles and variations is not saved in midi.

Its probably a coding thing.
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 08:26 PM

The idea was to style-ize the midi of my piano accompaniment with the presets in EZK.
I brought it in and applied a pop-style - 3rd variation (for example)

And it did work. But not well or predictably. Couldnt use what resulted.

Worked on the jazz solo for the guy in the video fairly well.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 08:34 PM

We really should start a thread to continue these recording production tid bits, like start it in musicians, it tends to get buried in the recording forum down below.

I wanna talk about starting and stopping songs, they say fading out is not really an option any more, so few do it. So how do manage endings with software.../ in general
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 09:36 PM

I'm in for that. I really enjoy working with the audio software and look for places to learn and share experiences.

Btw...Toontracks EZKeys forum was a real let down. Not much to look at that I could find.

So yeah, start some threads, tell me where they are and we can share our experiences and finds.

As for starting and stopping...for me it is decay out or land on the one. If there are others to consider...cool.
BIAB has several endings...coda this coda that. Could dig into that. Been wanting to.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 10:32 PM

Their forum stinks, bunch of morons who get mad when you state something about the software might not be up to snuff. For that matter BIAB forum was the same way. I signed up many years ago, "i dont know, im not sure you can get professional results with Biab'

WHAT? Well, somebody peed in his cheerios today. Or my personal favorite "Its not the tools, its the person using it" Oh really now, then what would you use if not BIAB? Crickets... lol, didnt even wanna say something else, could that would be sacrilege.

I swear there were some zealots on there who kissed Peter Gannons arse like he was The Prince of Wales

HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT SOUNDS CHEESY>>>

It was funny, but also unfruitful, its one of the things that left me with a bad band in a box taste in my mouth.

What are ya gonna do...
Posted By: JAPOV

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 10:50 PM

I just remembered the reason I tried BIAB LOL... smile
I make a lot of rough phone recordings when I get song ideas...
I heard that you could plug an audio file into BIAB and it would automatically analyze it and produce a chord sheet / tempo / style for you. Boy... did THAT turn out to be BS!
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/08/21 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by JAPOV
I just remembered the reason I tried BIAB LOL... smile
I make a lot of rough phone recordings when I get song ideas...
I heard that you could plug an audio file into BIAB and it would automatically analyze it and produce a chord sheet / tempo / style for you. Boy... did THAT turn out to be BS!


Style? I dunno.

Chord sheet?
My DAW will do that. So will BIAB. BIAB will throw in Notation.

TEMPO?
BIAB absolutely will. You have to go into the "chord wizard" with audio and set a few bar markers at transients...but...been there and done that. Easy PZ and effective.
Posted By: JAPOV

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/09/21 03:52 AM

Really? I never could get it to work.... Plug this in and see what happens

https://www.soundclick.com/music/songInfo.cfm?songID=14203869
Posted By: JAPOV

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/09/21 03:58 AM

All I know for sure... No matter how advanced the technology gets, unless you include some porn in your "workflow", nobody is going to pay money to watch an old guy play with a computer smile
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/09/21 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by JAPOV
All I know for sure... No matter how advanced the technology gets, unless you include some porn in your "workflow", nobody is going to pay money to watch an old guy play with a computer smile



I never said that they would.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/09/21 05:28 PM

Does anybody know if you buy Native Instruments controller, would that controller still be ok for using in other softwares, settings? Like Ez bass, keys
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/09/21 05:52 PM

I suspect that it is universal. Call their customer support to be certain.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/09/21 09:22 PM

Boy im glad i didnt buy BIAB, that woulda been a mistake. somebody said. "Additional good advice is not to give or accept bad advice as you move towards it. It's just static and wrong turns to do so."

Sheww, i dodged a bullet
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/09/21 09:40 PM

Like I said in the other post. Suit yourself.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/09/21 09:43 PM

Ive been suiting myself but you wont let me.... LMAOOOO

Ok I think I put the smack down on Marty by now. Back to business..
Another good EZ bass video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMV6Rw5tnMY
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/09/21 09:47 PM

I suppose fantasies are fun. Enjoy yours.
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/09/21 10:01 PM

Im regaining interest in EZ bass, but its ALOT of work. Its almost like you're a secretary than a musician.

But I think between using presets as your source notes, then using the articulations, and transitions, you can basicly string along a bass line. Its the long way around but should work
Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/09/21 10:39 PM

I do not know how difficult the bass lines on your song are. But if you can play it yourself on a bass, you can play it on a midi just about as easily, and then clean up the timing and velocity in a midi editor very easily. If you learn some of those triggers in the video that you found, you can do quite a bit more.
Posted By: JAPOV

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/09/21 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by JAPOV
All I know for sure... No matter how advanced the technology gets, unless you include some porn in your "workflow", nobody is going to pay money to watch an old guy play with a computer smile

Oh, come on guys... That's funny and you know it! smile
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/10/21 12:01 AM

The main difference Marty, is that you have to come up with the bass part. I have to say, im pretty good with coming up with bass lines, but im still not a bass player. There's a feel, a command of the instrument, a knowing what role the bass plays, knowing what sounds are good and what arent, that I dont possess.

If I put hours and hours and hours into my stuff, and spend all kinds of money on stuff, gadgets, the reason would be I want people to hear it, I want to shoot for TV Movies, release an album, so in other words, I want people to think a real bass player is playing.

But it could be worse, I could be trying to do that on piano....

I wonder if there are extra midi bass files online. Something where you can get chitloads of patterns that you can then put through into EZ

Posted By: Sunset Poet

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/10/21 01:06 AM

FD

Spend a few bucks on a midi. Make it as useful as you can and move on.
All this back and forth is just lost heat energy that could be spent learning and using that.

Pick a path and move down it. I will be more than glad to share whatever information that I can with you. I spend hours learning these things too,
Posted By: Fdemetrio

Re: BIAB Effects - 03/17/21 02:02 PM

Just downloaded NI, Strummed acoustic, and got both their electric guitar softwares as well, the sunburst deluxe and the classic...I believe the classic is modeled after the 50's telecaster.

Main reason is having everything in one spot, one unit, no noise, with the articulations, these things have better technique than I do, playing the real thing. I dont do alot of bells and whistles, I basicly play as if I were in a garage band.

I dont want it to sound over my head so Ill KISS, but i figure ill bang through dozens of songs, and find a few that are worth doing the right way. Or it may not happen, might not feel any are worth it, and the demo is good enough.

Just gotta get the controller from guitar center now, and then hit the massive learning curve.
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