The Billboard Guide to Writing and Producing Songs that Sell by Eric Beall.

This book was mentioned on another thread by Dayson and DonnaMarilyn. I bought a copy and have almost finished it. It cost me about $17 on line.

I would suggest that anybody who is serious about songwriting (or just whining about songwriting on bulletin boards) read it. It does not teach you the nitty-gritty of how to write a song, but focuses on what it takes for a song to rise above the thousands of other songs that are written every week - and why.

Feel free to discuss the contents of the book in this thread if interested.

Colin

I have not read this book so cannot comment on its actual contents. I will take your word that it is a must have. I will be purchasing a copy just to see what all the fuss is about. I did however read the Eric Beall blurb about it and was a bit concerned about some of the things he claims to teach in this book.
It states....

"Whether you’re a beginning or veteran songwriter or producer, no matter what musical genre you choose to pursue, Beall offers step-by-step, easy to understand approach to increasing the commercial potential of your work. Learn:

How A Song Becomes A Hit

What Makes a Song A Single

The Formula For a Hit

With no musical theory knowledge required, The Billboard Guide to Writing and Producing Songs That Sell uses familiar musical examples to illustrate its concepts, and engaging exercises that will challenge you to improve your songwriting skills."

I suspect that this is putting the cart before the horse. What is the point in learning how to increase the potential of your work if you have poor songwriting skills and no decent work to market in the first place. I was also concerned that "No musical theory was necessary." Understanding musical theory is IMO a prerequisite before you can write any decent song. I fail to see how anybody can improve songwriter skills without having some musical skills and a decent grasp of musical theory.

Now on another thread I was taken to task for saying that most songwriting books either state the blindingly obvious or are irrelevant to the real needs of the people buying them. I suggested that people learn to play an instrument and obtain the musical knowledge that comes with it as a good starting point to then learn the craft of songwriting...there are no shortcuts and I doubt if reading a book will make that much difference to any wannabe songwriter who has not already learned the craft of songwriting. Now a lot of folk who read these type of books just write lyrics.....nothing wrong with lyric writers there is always a need for great lyrics....However IMO lyrics are just a tiny part of a song and have very little to do with what makes a song sell, especially in todays pop market. To be a good lyricist you must also have a good practical and theoretical knowledge of musical composition....so you can write lyrics to fit music already written or allow music which will be written by someone else to fit your lyrics.

Colin, There's scores if not hundreds of books promising to reveal the secret to writing songs that sell. Is there anything in particular that distinguishes Beall's book from all the rest of them? I've looked at his web presence. Seems to be a good pitchman.

I'm not so sure music theory is needed by a lyric writer. A great sense of time and tempo is though.

I often write using a piano that I don't really play all that well and it can lead me to progressions that I wouldn't use in normal guitar playing.

A lot of people will praise the Beatles writing yet they often broke standard music theory at that time.

In order to break rules successfully you must first know and understand the rules you are breaking.
I have written many songs from lyrics that lyric only folk have supplied to me. A common problem is poor metering and the lack of any coherent or consistent rhythm pattern throughout the lyrics. A lot have no scope for musical subtlety or contain no areas where suitable bridges, rises or middle eights etc can be constructed. These basic errors could often be avoided if the writer had some proper knowledge of musical theory and applied it to their lyrics.

Whilst I love a good lyric......writing them IMO is the easy part compared to writing, producing and arranging the music to accompany them.
Most modern pop music is so production driven that it would appear the very simple lyrics used by most are almost an afterthought thrown in ad hoc without much skill or care.
few fans will remember more than a few of the song's lyrics anyway. Most pop stars nowadays write their own songs including lyrics.... and the producers place little importance on lyrics.....it shows... it is the image of the pop star, the beat, the musical hook and the production that sells the song. lyrics count for little....so the scope and need for good lyricists is getting smaller and smaller. I do not see a healthy commercial future for many folk who just write the words.

Hi Colin,

Glad you picked up a Copy!
This Book is very different from other Songwriting Books I've read.
It doesn't teach you how to write a Hit as much as show you 'Characteristics' found in them, and how to guide you to implementing them into your own Songs.

I was re-reading many chapters today, through a slow period at work:)I'm always finding something I missed the first few times around..
It's a great Tool for the Aspiring Songwriter that has a goal of seeing there Songs on the Charts.
I believe it's a Must Have!
It changes your perspective.-Dana

I should clarify that the book is written for people who already know music theory and how to write a song......it is more about fine tuning a song so that it is not lost in the pile. The first section is about what distinguishes a song that makes it onto the radio through the stacks of red tape.

Whether or not you want your song to become a hit, the principles still apply if you want to write songs that people like, even if its just your Mom.

Hi Colin I do not get it.....if the book is written for people who "already know music theory and how to write a song" as YOU say then WHY does HE say that it is suitable for anything from beginners to veterans and no musical theory required.
Now I have read a lot of these type of books and most offer little help and advice other than common sense stating nothing but the blindingly obvious. One book I read from a hit writer consisted of nothing but him bragging about how good he was and telling his life story which consisted of networking and ass licking to get to where he was. His only song writing skill was to listen to what was a hit and copy the good bits into his songs.

It is not a beginner's book on songwriting, however a beginner could certainly understand what he is saying.

Perhaps what he says is blindingly obvious to someone like you who has spent a lifetime as a performer. It is obviously not obvious to many of the people on this board however. It does not matter to me if you read it or not. All I am saying is that I got something out of it as did Dayson and DonnaMarilyn who recommended it in the first place.

It has been a few weeks or months since I have been in the local book store but it seems there are a number of books on the shelves about songwriting and the music business. There are also a lot of Sites on the Web you can investigate for good information.

One I have found is http://www.audio-recording-center.com/

You don't have to understand Music Theory for this book.
in fact it doesn't touch on Music Theory at all..
It's written in a way that a beginner or professional can take something away from it.
An invaluable tool to have in your arsenal.-Dana

I didn't read that book, but think it deserves to get read,
why?
Cause it's always necessary to learn the new ways of creativity...
Once you stopped it, thinking you know everything, your creativity died.
for example I started many years ago with playing chord progressions on guitar trying to put a melody over it
and I do it now too...
then I learned new ways, say, just singing over a beat without a rest, recording what I come up with (thanks to Robin Gibb and his interview that led me there)
How to get a song that is contemporary and sounds alike what you hear at charts? Take a beat of such a song and sing with it your own melody while playback is on(great tool!)
So, learn the new ways constantly from others, from books,
from the lyrics, from everywhere!

PS. Now I consider purchase of a keyboard, although I never played it, why? The creativity will work with another way, using unknown instrument....it's like one lyricist says to another:

"Write your lyrics with a pen, don't type it! Why?
Words are streaming with another way through a pen"

I will really have to read this book.......I simply cannot get my head around the claims to help anybody become a hit writer...but weirdly does not teach or rely on having any of the pre requisite tools like experience and musical ability which are crucially needed before anything else to write a decent song.

Jim,

Even when you went to school they didn't use the same book to teach addition and subtraction and calculus.

Darn. I can't remember his name, but there was a non-performing songwriter in the 70's, with several hits, and he never played an instrument, or had musical lessons of any kind. He claimed that it would interfere with his creativity if his music was limited to what he knew how to play.

So maybe the book is onto something, but I couldn't say, since I haven't read it. Just saying that musical training isn't necessarily a deteriment to songwriting.

Midnite

Correct.....but before talking about applied mathematics we had to learn our times tables.

Midnite I agree. There are exceptions to any rule.......but because there are only ever a few exceptions kind of demonstrates that the rule applies to most people in most cases.
Just because someone has hit songs does not mean the songs or songwriter is any good.
My point is simple anyone serious about songwriting are not doing themselves or the craft any favours by NOT learning the basics fist.
I would have thought that understanding the theory of music and ability to play an instrument to a decent level is a better way of learning how to write a song.
But when all said and done if somebody gets a benefit from these books well that is OK. I just think that in this upside down world we are perhaps putting the cart before the horse.
It makes sense that some people perhaps do not want to go through a long hard apprenticeship so look for an easy shortcut.
I just wonder if the end product stands up....
The pop charts which seem to be full of crappy songs perhaps bears that out.

Well, has anybody read the book?

Colin, Thanks for bringing the book to our attention.

I got through the first 10 pages of the introduction. One man's Pot of Gold is another man's snake oil. Promises of "the recipe for a hit," "creating a hit title," and all the rest have been around since the recording industry began. The author tells us there's at least 500,000 songwriters and "about a thousand songs" enter the charts each year, adding that "less than 1 percent of the songwriters in the country will have a charting song in any given year." But it's a whole lot "less" than one percent. Actually, it's less than point zero zero 2 thousandths of 1 percent. If he so grossly over-exaggerates the chances of charting a song, why should I believe he doesn't exaggerate everywhere else?

It's probably a good book for music industry junkies and folks who can't get enough of music business insider stuff. Yet you can tell by the title it's not marketed that way. It promises to be a guide to writing and producing hit songs. But I don't think it will get any writer or producer into the same zip code where the "hit songs" are written. I'd be stunned, in fact, if even one person comes anywhere close to a hit song from reading the book.

Dan,

I suspect he was not telling you what you wanted to hear in those first ten pages.

Carl,

Yes, that's the book. It came highly recommended by some folks on the board and I bought it and read it. It explains why things are the way they are - which is something that is debated ad infinitum on this board. It does not tell you how to write a song....only what is needed in order for the song to be successful. If you know what is required, then you have a much better chance of hitting the mark. Knowledge is power.

Colin, can you distil the book down to its essence, ie, the necessary "bullet points"?

ie

Have basic talent and a passion for writing
Listen to lots of good music
Write and co write lots of lyrics
Network strategically
Be persistent
Be likeable

etc

OK John,

Nothing like the ones you mentioned!

Despite all the song being written, A&R people are crying out for hit songs. Usually they are written on demand for a specific artist and they define that artist. One hit defines the personality of a new artist so the song has to be suitable.

Radio is still the most important way to get a song noticed
Radio is looking for hits. Radio is in business to sell advertising so they only care about songs as a means to gain or retain listeners so they can sell more advertising.
Hits are in one very specific genre....not "kinda popish country with some rap".
You cannot get a song on the radio without it passing through many levels of screening based on microscopic research, sometimes of only a ten second sample of the main hook.

Hit songs are edgy and contain something unexpected. They must stand out from the pack, even if it is off color, or weird or ????
Hit songs have multiple hooks. The primary hook in the chorus, one or more instrumental hooks, and possibly more hooks in the verses.
Melody takes precedence over everything else in a song (includes some examples of melody characteristics by genre).
Hit songs must have momentum and no dead spots.

Much more, but you get the idea.

Thanks for the recommendation, Colin

Anthony,

You are welcome.

The only important point re this book is.....how many people have actually had a hit after reading it and applying its contents to said hit?.......I suspect nil but would be interested to hear different.
No point in buying a book if it does not "do what it says on the tin" to coin a phrase.

I still say that learning how to compose a tune and the basics of music theory and musicology will serve people better...especially those who just write lyrics.

You need to be able to walk before you can run.

Jim,

There are a lot of songwriters shooting for the moon here on JPF and elsewhere, many of whom know music theory and how to write a decent song. But it helps to know where the moon is located if you are shooting for it.

Hey Colin,

I keep coming into this thread just for a giggle....

It's like attending a book club meeting, where no one has read the book!

And now I'm part of it!

Laughing here!
Lisa

Lisa,

Glad you are enjoying it. I wonder if there are any Cliff's Notes available?

An excellent analogy, Colin.

I sent a copy of the book to a co-writer buddy of mine in Scotland. He was very impressed, and has been taking pains to put into practice several of the points. I might mention that he's been a musician (he's a killer guitarist and an excellent melodist) for several decades. Of course, I don't know whether any of our co-writes will end up hitting the moon, but I'm pretty darn sure they'll be better songs than they would have been before either of us had read the book.

Donna

i really hate to be a "party pooper" but how can a book teach you to write from "The Soul"..How can it tell you to find that line you are desperate to find..or even that couple of words,which you know are the one's you are looking for, when they finally come into your concious mind,sometimes in the middle of the night,how can a book tell you how to fit a lyric round the melody,or define where a minor chord may be suitable..no book that i know of comes close,and iam talking in simple generalisations here really,and only covering the outer fringes of the Art of Songwriting..Songwriting is like life,baffling,compelling and mysterious..if anyone can write a book that searches the inner soul of a Songwriter,and can find some of these answers,or even come close..well..it may be worth buying..but i won't hold my breath..To me songwriting comes from within,not from the pages of some publication..but as i always say,that is only my opinion...Terry..

Terry, the book doesn't teach how to write from the soul.

It doesn't teach how to write. Period.

What it does is provide valuable - even surprising (sometimes scary) insights - into the possibilities of raising the bar for your songs.

Why not read the book and find out for yourself what Beall is saying.

Lisa, welcome to the 'No-damn-way-I'm-reading-the-book-but-I'll-certainly-critique-it' club.

Donna

Just thought I'd stop by and say that it is a pretty worthless book! ... and no, I haven't read it. I refuse to let facts interfere with my opinions.

"Cliff Notes" isn't that the new guy who lives two doors down the street???

I put these "how to write hit songs" books in the same category as penis enlargement pills. There's always people hawking this kind of stuff. If people want to spend money on it, that's their business. But I'm not interested in it. And I don't have to try things like this to know they don't deliver what they promise.

I stand by what I said earlier......most books just state the blindingly obvious or are totally inappropriate for skill levels and talent of the people they claim to help. Most do not even come close to delivering what they cliam.

You do not need to try Dr Quack's Snake Oil Elixir to know that it does not cure any of the ailments it claims to.

Yes there are a lot of people aiming for the moon...but few of these delusional wannabes have any chance of getting their feet off the planet Earth never mind the moon.....book or no book.

Here is my take on the whole issue...please correct me where I go wrong. Now I remember the days when you had to have real talent and musical ability to be a successful songwriter and only great musicians with a proven track record ever got near a recording studio to record these songs. The bar was set so high that only a few people with proven ability could dream of attempting to jump it. Few people who had only a modicum of talent would embarrass themselves by trying.

Sadly things have changed. Instead of the bar getting ever higher it has been lowered to such an extent that almost anybody regardless of ability could step over it and fill the shoes of the songwriters and popstars of today if they are given the right hype, marketing and backing. Mediocrity is now the standard accepted by all. Every time we turn on the radio or TV we are bombarded with crappy singers singing crappy songs that almost anybody can replicate. They are only there because the Simon Cowells of this world have put them there. These guys have a virtual monopoly on what gets released and how much hype and marketing it is backed by. Now these guys love playing God and revel in making obscene amounts of cash by backing these mediocre songs and acts. I honestly believe that they play a game with themselves to see just how far they can stoop to, and how low the bar can go to and still get a hit.

Now as we have been bombarded with so much of this mediocrity an increasing amount of wannabe delusional folk realise that they too could be a popstar or write a pop record every bit as good or bad as the garbage they hear.
Now with any large group of like minded delusional people there springs up a sub culture of people finding easy ways to scam them and part them from their cash with a false promise of helping them forward their career in some way or another.
Now I suspect that this book is just a part of all that.
When it comes to being a songwriter if you want to part of the cesspit culture I have explained go for the book. Copy the crap that has gone before you. Set your bar to the ultra low level.
However If you want to be original and write great songs that come from the heart and are not just a rip off of some crappy hit that has gone before learn the craft...it is a long learning curve and there is no short cut...and no magic book will provide answers.

Kevin: I edited this one so I could get rid of the duplicate posts.

I agree entirely, Big Jim.

However, as I – and Colin and Dana – said earlier, Beall isn’t trying to teach the reader to write a good song. He assumes the person has already reached a certain level of competence, based on hard work, natural talent, and – as he puts it – “plain dumb luck”.

Beall describes in stark detail the obstacles facing a songwriter hoping to hit that moon that Colin mentioned. Then he goes on to offer insights and tools that the songwriter can use to raise the song’s bar to give it a better shot at passing the standard “ten-second-call-out” test used by radio to determine listener response – which in turn translates into thumbs up or thumbs down for a potential single. These tools are complementary to whatever skills, experience, and talent the songwriter already has.

What amuses me in this thread is people’s fierce determination to slam a book and its content without having the slightest idea of what that content actually is.

In our culture, we glean information from all possible sources, some of them very expensive (e.g. universities, with books costing up to hundreds of dollars). We obtain knowledge from books (and other media) on every conceivable topic from the time we begin school or can be planted in front of a TV screen.

If we study photography, we read books and examine the work of famous and gifted photographers as well as by getting out in the field with our cameras. If we study architecture, we read additional material by experts and study their designs in order to expand our horizons. If we study pottery, we read books and take classes from skilled and creative craftspeople to learn more about their techniques and how to fine-tune our own. If we learn a trade, we're taught by other professionals in that field. And so on.

Why is there such vehemence against a recommended book (from which a few people here have actually learned something new and useful) by a professional songwriter, producer, and industry executive on the comprehensive topic of songwriting and of producing songs that might conceivably become stronger contenders in the commercial market? Even for writers with no strong commercial aspirations (and I’m one of them), the information is interesting, helpful, and even inspiring.

For years, people have raved about and recommended (and purchased) John Braheny's famous book on songwriting, or books by Jason Blume, and those by by other accomplished songwriters.
Why is it that Eric Beall's book is considered - especially by those who haven't read it - to be such a waste of time?

I wonder how much money people waste daily on questionable tabloids, or on magazines or DVDs or countless television channels that do nothing positive to – in the Aristotelian tradition – “educate or enlighten”? In other words, media that do nothing to increase useful knowledge or contribute to the enhancement of a person’s creative experience.

Well. Just wondering.

Donna

Donna, If I want to find the moon, I just look up at the sky. I don’t need to read a book to locate it. If somebody else wants to swim in shark infested waters, that’s their business. But it doesn’t mean I’ll join them just because they say “Come on in, the water’s fine.” Or if two or three of them say it.

There’s no comparison between how-to books (like Beal’s) offering to teach you how to become a millionaire, a rock star, hit songwriter, Hollywood star, etc. and educational books teaching a particular skill or craft. The former are meant to enrich the author, the latter are intended to enrich the reader. Most people can see the difference between the two.

You shouldn’t be annoyed because people disagree with you about the value of a book. You enjoyed the book. That’s great and I’m sure Beal appreciates it. I read 10 pages of the introduction to the book and determined there was a much better chance the author would get rich off the book than I would. I’m sure my disinterest doesn’t bother Beal in the least.

Nobody is criticizing you for following your Aristotelian impulses. Nobody is personally attacking you for recommending the book.

Where ever you look these days there’s always the danger of groupthink mentality. But it would be boring if we all agreed on everything.

Donna...Iam not in any way part of the "i won't buy it but i will offer a ceitique on it mob"..i passionately believe Songwriting cannot under any circumstance be taught from a book.Now,as far as passing tips on "promoting" "marketing" "raising the bar" as you put it concerning one's Songs.. then the book should be titled along the lines of "What Should I Do After I Have Written A Song"..if that is the message the author is trying to get across..i don't see many books on offer telling one "How To Be A Brain Surgeon" for example,or even "How To Be A Plumber"..i often wonder how let's say Irving Berlin,who could only play on the black keys on a piano,would react to a book telling him how to write songs on the white keys..mission impossible...Cheers..Terry..

Dan, I feel you've missed the tone of what I was saying.

- I'm not annoyed. I'm amused by the vehemence.
- I don't feel criticised.
- I don't feel personally attacked.

(HINT: Check out the second signature under my name. )

I was expressing a point of view, partially in the form of a rhetorical question.
Attempting to persuade anyone into a groupthink mentality would go against everything I value.

And again I'm left wondering. But this time, it's about how is it possible to make a blanket statement regarding the commercial intention - or lack thereof - of any author when he/she writes a book.

Terry, I've learned that sometimes you really can't tell a book by its cover.
And to fall back on another idiom: I try not to throw babies out with the bathwater.

I don't find anything over the top in a title like 'The Billboard Guide to Writing and Producing Songs That Sell'. It's a guide. It's not a promise or a guarantee of fame, riches, and stardom. The songwriter still faces a long, hard slog. He/she might not ever get that elusive hit, but may well end up writing better songs, and so have a more satisfying experience of the journey.

You may want to check out these links:
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&keywords=plumbing&page=1&rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Aplumbing

http://www.amazon.com/brain-surgeon...-12&keywords=how+to+do+brain+surgery

http://www.amazon.com/Brain-Surgery...67&sr=1-7&keywords=brain+surgery

Dana, Colin, and I found something of interest and value in Beall's book. We wanted to share that with our friends here.

No need for anyone to feel dismissive of the information or of our experiences of the book.

Donna

I have just cancelled my order for the book.....This guy stands for everything I find abhorrent about the music industry. I did a bit of browsing and found a host of sites and blogs by this guy. All he talks about is making money...money...money.....and business plans, deals and contracts. He has no interest in music as an art form only as a way of making money. Now I believe that music should be about freedom, expression, moving people, telling stories and innovation not making money. This guy thinks that music is all about making money....and is more interested in this aspect than anything else.
Thanks to this guy and others like him the music industry is being strangled to death. It is stagnating and perpetuates nothing but mediocre paint by numbers songs by artists that have no soul, skill or originality.
Like Dan I do not want to be part of this cesspit. I am not that desperate to make a fortune and my standards and morals would prevent me anyway. But if others want to join in then that is their business. I wish them luck. I have no intention of making this guy even richer that he already is. I doubt very much that anybody except him would benefit from his books courses or workshops. If anything I see him as a corrupting influence rather than a guy passing on genuine tips on how to improve skills.
I do agree Donna that there is much to be learned from textbooks. and "how to books" generally help people improve skills and knowledge...but there are a lot of books that are just scams promising the impossible like get rich quick or lose weight fast. Now these type of books can do more harm than good. I feel that this is just another example of one of them.

I have first hand experience of just how corrupt the recording, TV and music industry is and have spoken to a number of top recording artists with similar experiences who can tell very scary stories about what happens behind the scenes...most off the record, will confirm that record company exec guys and agents etc are nothing but leeches thieves and con men..... some with very nasty illegal habits. On the record they have to suck up to them or face being ditched in favour of the waiting millions who will do anything to get a hit.

Big Jim, I have no doubt that what you say about the music industry is true.
I always read your posts with interest and an open mind, because you have a lifetime of experience behind you.

As I mentioned in my early post, however, I try not to throw the babies out with the bathwater.

Donna

Most songwriters today, hit ones included, had no musical training and do not read music. Music theory is great for players. It's the reason classically trained musicians almost never make good composers. The skills have little in common. One teaches to follow rules, the other requires skills in knowing how to successfully break the rules, but in ways that still work musically.

Music Theory is great. But has little to do with successful songwriting. Arranging in some cases it is very important, especially for doing film scoring for example. But to write rock or pop or rap songs, it's irrelevant.

Brian

I wonder when we'll actually get around to discussing this part.

Donna

Carl, from the way you described the book in your earlier post, it doesn't sound like the same on at all. Perhaps you're thinking of another one?

Donna

OK. It's just that you stated it focuses more on marketing and on how to launch your career.

The book I have has only one chapter (pp 61-75) that discusses marketing. The rest covers a variety of other topics geared to helping songwriters strengthen their songs so that they'll have a better chance at passing the 'ten-second-call-out' test that sifts the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.

Donna

As I mentioned above, I don't really care if anyone reads this book or not. However, I do find it enlightening that people who spend hours on this songwriting board, and spend more hours writing songs, paying to have them demoed, and unsuccessfully pitching them, are not at least curious enough to spend the cost of a couple of lunches or glasses of wine to see if they might learn something worthwhile.

Hmmmm. Gosh, it still sounds like an entirely different book, Carl.

I say that because - among others - the sections on Recipes for a Hit, The Flavor of a Hit, The Framework of a Hit, Creating a Hit Title, The Rhythm of a Hit, Hits Need Hooks, and The Finishing Touch all describe in detail the tools that can lead to better songs.

I've found these sections to be immensely interesting and useful. My co-writer in Scotland and I are now approaching our collaborations a little differently, in a more focussed, organised manner.

Looks like you and I are interpreting the book's intention differently.

Donna

Brian I cannot say I agree with most of that...... or perhaps we are confusing the term musical theory with what I would call a proper practical understanding of the theory behind all music. Now most songwriters I know are not classically trained but all can play an instrument to a half decent level. A lot have great difficulty reading or writing sheet music and scores or tabs etc. That said every serious writer I know who writes songs, as in words and music, has had at least some tutoring or training in playing musical instruments, and with that comes an understanding that most non musicians are incapable of understanding. it's imperative to invest time learning about things like time sigs, keys, scales, beats and bars, notation, transposition, rhythm, harmonics and texture etc etc etc before you can put down a song of any worth. The easiest and most rewarding way is to learn to play an instrument
I would say that whilst most hit songwriters today do not read music just about everyone does have at least some musical training........... from listening to some of the songs it just sounds as if they don't. LOL

Even Gaga has been known to sit in front of a piano and vamp out a tune.

Thank You Very Much Donna...i have just ordered "How To Be a Brain Surgeon" from Amazon..You forgot to mention it comes in 6 volumes,and each volume weighs 64lb..i wish i had bought Beals Songwriting book now..oh well! you live & learn..just a wee added thought..all the "noted" Songwriting "Tip" Books seem to have one thing in common..the Authors have the initial B.eg..Blume.Beal.Braheny...I wonder what other word you can think of that has B as the first letter?..answers on a postcard to my big pal Jim ..

From the classically trained musicians I knew, I’d be tempted to agree with Brian’s assessment. My teacher, a classically trained concert pianist appreciated and encouraged my composing ability, as I admired his playing and knowledge of music. But I think his mastery of classical theory and harmony made composing more difficult for him (limiting his compositional possibilities), thus, he composed very little.

Of course I’m sure Brian is speaking more of songwriting than composing considering the great composers from Bach to Gershwin who had extensive knowledge of music theory and harmony but were prolific composers. And many were experts at improvising. Oops, did I say Gershwin? A classical trained pianist and great songwriter. Then again, so was Neil Sedaka, another classically trained pianist and prolific songwriter.

As far as books go… I don’t think I’ve ever read a book that I didn’t learn something from. I’m sure this book has lots of interesting information and viewpoints. Books have always been the primary source of sharing past and present knowledge. Then again, considering how many book stores are going out of business, I imagine the Internet (Googling) is taking the place of books as a primary source of knowledge – yikes!

Just felt the urge to add a little bit of nothing to this thread.

John

I never yell, Carl.

Yes, I've read the books you mention. (Other than by Molly Ann Leinkins, a name I assume you made up. ) (And I presume you mean Andrea Stolpes?)

Yes, I get something useful out of pretty much every book I select to read on specific topics. (When I want to buy a focus-area book, I research it first. Beall's book has been around for 3-4 years, but I wasn't familiar with it.)

I'd hoped the thread might become an actual reasonable discussion of the book, as Colin had, I think, tried to set it up to be. (In fact, you came closest to doing that. ) I was overly optimistic, though, given that few if any threads of this nature here ever land on or remain on topic.

Anyway, back to songwriting, and using a few of my newly gathered tools. I take inspiration where I find it.

Donna

John et al...I understand your take on this completely. I have met some great players who were not classically trained and some who are. I have met people who can improvise or play just about anything by ear and some who cannot play anything unless the sheet music is put in front of them.
I remember when every club singer sang in clubs with a resident live band who you had just met that night but were expected to perform a dozen or so of your songs to a professional standard in front of a very discerning audience. You presented the band with dots for the songs you were going to sing in the hope they could play the songs to a decent standard...no sound check or rehearsing...it was a nightmare. Some bands, in my experience most of them, could not read music and it was a hit or miss if they even knew the song or could play something remotely like your arrangement. It brought a whole new meaning to stage fright and nerves. It also taught how to ad lib, improvise and how to get the audience on your side. It was not uncommon to save embarrassment and change the songs you intended to sing by choosing songs from the bands own set list that you also knew. Most audiences could spot someone struggling with a bad band and made allowances BUT sadly the bookers or club owner sometimes could not. You sometimes had to decline work knowing that the band were so bad they could ruin your reputation. To say that a good band can make a bad singer sound good and that a bad band can make anyone sound bad is an understatement.

Anyways as to songwriting......any knowledge or classic training can only be a benefit providing it is used properly. Whilst the need for reading music and writing dots in this day and age is all but obsolete especially when it comes to songwriting I still think that anyone is operating under a huge handicap if they do not understand the practical aspects of music. To do it by intuition alone is asking too much. Perhaps the reason why much of todays music is so naff is that few understand these tech aspects. Some only know that a bar is where you get a drink. a Quaver is a kind of maize snack. and a crotchet is an area at the top of your legs.
As for books well I also have learned a lot from books...but I have to say I have learned a lot more from the experience of getting out there and doing it.

Yeah, I mean I think it can't hurt to learn. You can always decide you don't agree with material and not use it.

HiDee Y'Alls!!!

Hmmm..."Write in One Specific Genre"... (Guess Taylor Swift's destined to end up Poverty-Stricken & Nameless...) ;-)>

OK..OK..."It's a GUIDE-Book for us LESS-Creative Creatives"..I GET It.

And..soon..I WILL.

I figure it's WORTH the $17 Outlay to hopefully Catch-UP with The Industry Today...(Even IF it's Fulla-Crap..)

I rather expect it'll say, in-print "Pen SHORT Songs, so Radio has more Airtime-Left to sell as Commercials."

It also oughta say in-print that there ARE Songs Airplayed that are basically BOUGHT & PAID-FOR by Labels and Managers so they DO get Airplayed, that DO go-on to become Hits. (Since we ALL are Aware that "The Airwaves DON'T belong to The People anymore...but to The Highest-Bidder.")

So-Far, my Top-2 Songwritin' Books: "The Craft of Lyric Writing", by Sheila Davis (Yeah, 'tis a wee-bit Dated, BUT nobody's topped it for the CRAFT Part, JMO) and "The Craft & Business of Songwriting" by the late John Braheny.

I think my limited Budget CAN absorb a $17 Hit...heh-heh..IF it helps my Learning-Curve even a WEE-Bit.

QUESTION for the Cognoisetti: CAN ya pay for it, the Online Version, AND read it Bit-By-BIT, OR do Ya HAVE to download it ON-The-Spot, never to return to RE-Read???????

Thanks for Educatin' Me...I'm usually In-Need!

Best Wishes & Big Hugs,
Stan

PS: I Googled "Books on Songwriting" and Amazon has a list of the Top 25. & Lo-&-Behold, I've got a few more here I'd forgotten-about: "6 Steps to Songwriting Success" by Jason Blume ($5.73 & Up)..{Seem to remember Jason recommends visiting a Music Center at least 5X a Year..as one of The Steps..[Alas, in My Case..heh!]}..and Pat & Pete Luboff's "101 Songwriting Wrongs (& How to Right Them)"..{Very Fun & Well-Penned How-To Book..You'll enjoy it!} They also self-publish "12 Steps to Building Better Songs"--& I've met 'em personally many a time back when I COULD travel to Music Centers--They're Really Nice Folks/Know Their Stuff.

AND..just remembered Another Book, penned in 1998 by JPF Mentor, & Friend of Mine, Harriet Schock, "Becoming Remarkable". 2 Quotes that've stuck with me in it: "If you're doing it for the money, you probably won't make any" and, craft/inspiration-wise, "If it's something real that is screaming to be said, it'll write itself."

I would imagine that you download the file usually as PDF and it is there for you to read on your PC whenever you wish and as often or as little as you wish.

Hey Colin -- Do you have a movie you can recommend? I can't decide what not to see this weekend! Thanks! Lisa

Lisa,

Don't go to see Identity Thief. I have not seen it because the company that made it wants to be profitable and sell movie tickets. Plus it's a hit so it's probably crap.

Carl, thanks for the name clarification (and for introducing me to Leikin).

Interesting that she's a Canadian (like me ), and fled to California to escape our harsh winters.

I had a look at several of her books. I was tempted to buy one of them out of curiousity, but noted that the particular book - and the others - had been published many years ago (the one that interested me was from 2003). I also noted that the books had only a small handful of reviews, and not all were positive. This is in contrast to books by Davis and Pattison, for instance, who update their material in line with developments in the industry, and whose work is highly regarded.

Nevertheless, without actually reading the book it's not fair to judge. I found a cheap secondhand copy online, and will order it. I'd like to compare it with material by Davis, Pattison, Stolpe, Blume, Webb, Rooksby, and others.

(By the way, I visited Leikin's site: She's quite the businesswoman. )

Bottom line, of course, is that books can't replace hard work and getting out in the thick of things; but they can be very useful as guidelines, at least to people like me. And as the song says: "You take what you need and you leave the rest".

(If you're interested in guidelines, you might want to check out SongU.com.
The instructors/mentors there are widely experienced, have equally long lists of credits, and are active in the profession, including performing live and giving workshops.)

Lisa, oh no, not another hijack! I know you did that on purpose. Check out the movie "Peacock". It's from last year, but is, I think, only available on DVD. It's a gem. Thought provoking and wonderfully acted.

Donna

(By the way, I visited Leikin's site: She's quite the businesswoman. \:D )

I visited the sites of most of the bookwriter people who have been mentioned........guess what..... they are all businesspersons. They seem to put making money before anything else. That IMO is completely the wrong way to approach songwriting......it stifles and restricts free expression as most advocate obeying rules, writing to, or following a formula or copying what is in the charts at the moment in one shape or form....this I see as a huge negative to music as an artform.
My advice if you want to be a great songwriter..... read the books but pay little heed to what they say.
If you want to write naff songs that could potentially make money.....then do what the book says. The chances of actually making dollar one are somewhere between very slim and none with none being the favourite.
You could of course have a nice lunch, or a good bottle of wine, or pay for a music lesson instead of buying these type of books......that would probably be of more benefit to you.

As I said, Big Jim:

"You take what you need and you leave the rest."

Donna

Sadly Donna most people are not as intelligent and discerning as you. The target market for these books are delusional people who know no different and will blindingly part with money and obey in the false hope that they too can be a hit writer. There is one born every minute. Whilst these unfortunates are more to be pitied than censured I do have issues with people who exploit such gullible people.

Anyone who has had any experience with the sharp end of the biz knows that these type of books are nothing but bull. They either state the blindingly obvious or are totally inappropriate for the target market.

I agree, Big Jim, that it's important to walk a fine line, and to choose carefully which 'bait' to be hooked by. (This is of course true in any area of life.)

Perhaps it's because all my life I've been book oriented (personally, academically, and professionally), so it's natural for me to turn to books that I feel might provide additional tools for me to fine-tune my craft, such as it is.

I have to say too that - as a non-player of any instrument - as well as learning a lot about music and melody from the collaborators I have the honour to work with, I've also learned a fair bit about music in general not only from listening to it but from reading about the elements that comprise a quality song. My life has been enriched as a result.

If I were to start over from 15 or so, I'd grab a guitar or a piano and learn the heck out of it, and I'd write lyrics and music and I'd sing my heart out at every possible gig opportunity or open mic.

Failing that, however, I do the best I can with what's at hand. And that includes picking from books the information that's most relevant to what I'm doing at a particular moment.

Each of us has her or his own learning pattern or process. And thank goodness for that.

What I'd like to have seen on Colin's thread here (and on others of its nature) were maybe simple expressions of interest/curiousity, such as 'Oh, what did you find most helpful in the book?' Or 'Is there something in particular you're going to implement in your own songs'? And so on. This doesn't mean that folks have to agree with the poster's opinion. But at least they would know what they're disagreeing with.

It simply allows for an actual discussion. But - as the kids say - 'whatever'.

Donna

That would have been nice.....however it seems that very few on this site have actually read the book. Therefore as was stated many times it is difficult to enter into this kind of discourse under these circumstances. What has come out of this thread is that many of us with age, wisdom and experience view these type of books, and there are many, with cynicism and scepticism. Perhaps it is the wild claims they all make that we cannot take seriously. We all know they can be easily promised but not delivered. Perhaps it is the pedigree and integrity of any writer who claims to know the business inside out yet makes wild claims and exaggerations about the contents of a book in a bid to make money.
If success was as simple as reading a book by one of these authors then we would all be successful. Maybe they should not write books or hold courses or workshops that give away such secrets which are so valuable to the recipients because the competition it would create would be a huge threat to their own success.
The only thing they might be good for is perhaps their contact list and an introduction.

Right there I laughed so hard I almost fell off my chair.

Big Jim, I'd have thought that not reading the book (by that, I mean any book of its nature) would be a good reason for people to ask questions about what the folks who did read the book got out of it in practical terms.
This is the type of dialogue that discussions are made of.

I don't believe promises. Full stop. And no one with half a brain believes success - in anything - is as simple as reading a book. That's never been the issue here - and the notion is simply a red herring.

What I have discovered is that applying certain guidelines (given in books or teaching situations) has helped me to become - I think - a better songwriter than I was 5 years ago.

An author's intention when he/she writes a book isn't my concern. But what he/he writes is.

I'm afraid though that I don't follow your reasoning about not teaching, writing, or holding workshops for fear of competition.

Mike, I've just seen your comment. Yes, I had a chuckle too.

Donna

"Big Jim, I'd have thought that not reading the book (by that, I mean any book of its nature) would be a good reason for people to ask questions about what the folks who did read the book got out of it in practical terms.
This is the type of dialogue that discussions are made of."

Questions of this nature were asked very early on in this thread.....but so far we have not had any direct answer as to exactly what the book contains that makes it required reading or even worth a read. On the other hand we have had people making valid points about the guy's sales pitch being less than honest and his claims less than believable. I actually read the first 26 pages......via a site that allows previews of e books....I was not impressed as it only contained long winded waffle and just kept saying what the book could do without actually getting to the point.....even the joke about the A&R man was pretty puerile...I know a lot better ones. Eg. What do you say when you find a A&R man with a bullet in his brain.....one less....or what a great shot especially considering the target was so small.
What do you call an A&R man with an IQ of fifty.....gifted.

My analogy is.....no point in discussing the finer points of Homeopathy or trying some of its remedies...when the whole concept does not work is preposterous and is built on sheer bunkum.
This book is the equivalent of Homeopathy....it does not produce the results it claims.

All that said perhaps if you gave specifics about parts of the book that you did find worthwhile then maybe I might change my stance.

PS Sorry.....My reasoning about the not passing on of secrets was a sarcastic joke.....however few prospectors who found gold were reluctant to say exactly where it was found to protect their interests in fear that others would muscle in. I am surprised this guy and others would give away their secrets for the same reason.

Big Jim, Colin did respond to those early questions (one was from John Voorpostel).

I'll reply to yours as well, but later. Hoping to have an early night.

Donna

Hi Colin...Saw "Identity Thief" this evening with La Femme...and...it IS Crap!!! (Good Acting/So-So Script. Save Your Loot!) (Just one man's Opinion!)

"Groundhog Day"...or even "Uncle Buck"..it sure wasn't!

Do not bother with Skyfall either. I watched it after wasting money by buying the DVD probably the worst Bond film ever made. Great special fx and stunts but little else. Bad script.... Plot if you can call it a plot was woeful even for a Bond film.....OTT and so many flaws. Even the theme song from Adele was pretty poor....bad song iffy arrangement and mediocre performance.

John,

You've got it right. I said that if you're doing a score for a film, then theory is certainly going to be critical... though I know of exceptions even there where people have done soundtracks simply using midi and sequencing and creativity to do impressive film scores. But you need to be able to understand the parts for each player/instrument and what range it naturally uses and so on to accurately mimic or score for a real symphony orchestra etc. But if you are doing a score of original material that isn't using live musicians, you can pretty much do whatever your mind imagines and there's no need for rules, or someone else's structure etc. Just compose by ear and with your talent. It may be brilliant or it may suck, but it can be done easily and is done by millions of untrained composers every day around the world. And it's sounding better and easier to put together than ever before every year.

Now, I do think some knowledge of how to put together instruments etc. can be very helpful. But classically trained musicians rarely make great composers of original music regardless of style. Are there exceptions? Sure. But in modern day, not so many who have done anything significant started as classically trained players. They can't just riff on your demo like someone using nothing but their own creativity and skills on an instrument to play something new.

I think it's really different parts of your brain which rockets the best players and the best composers versus the best technicians on an instrument doing other people's work.

Bob Malone is a guy who can play anything AND is an amazing composer. He's an A list LA Session piano player and in my view one of the best singer/songwriters I've come across. And I have come across quite a few good ones over the years.

Brian

The Theme song did suck bad (Skyfall) and it won an Oscar for 1 reason only: Adele wrote and sang it. But I loved the film. It was action packed. Who goes to a Bond film to see plot? None of them have had serious plot writing at the top of their attributes. They are fun popcorn movies with silly plots (the older ones) and only slightly more serious (the current series) but they've always been about either gadgets, cars, guns, exotic locales, beautiful women and massive impossible action. On that scale, Skyfall was a lot of fun. And I enjoyed seeing the locales as well. Reminded me of Western Scotland heading out towards Isle of Skye, one of the most beautiful areas I've seen in the world.

Brian

"But you need to be able to understand the parts for each player/instrument and what range it naturally uses and so on..." - Brian

Just a note on this... Sample packages like the East West Quantum Leap Orchestra won't allow playing an instrument out of range. It will only sound on the instrument range that is selected. Many times I needed an F# under middle C for a violin part and had to switch instruments to a viola (or raise the key a half step).

John

Yes Brian...but you would think that when spending millions on making a film it would not be rocket science to employ a decent team of writers capable of writing both a plot and script that is at least semi believable and suitable for characters with more than one dimension. Just because you have escapism and action stunts does not mean you have to ditch a semi believable story.

Heck If I had known they were really stuck for someone with even a basic skill to do this simple screenplay job I would have offered MY services......I would have done better for a lot less money.....frankly so could just about anybody....few could be as bad.
As for Adele well I simply do not get it. I cannot understand why she is so popular. She underachieves and falls short in every avenue... with the exception of making money.... she has developed some terribly annoying bad vocal techniques......JMO.

I'll take Shirley Bassey ("Goldfinger" and "Diamonds Are Forever") any day.

Ben I agree you cannot compare the two....in fact Adele is not even good enough to appear in the same sentence.