Congrats Brian on bringing in "Our Stage" as a new community partner! What a great resource for JPF members and the artist community at large.

Nice combo to have both music AND video contests under "one roof" with monthly opportunities to enter and chances to win. I can see this bringing some exciting activity to our MP3 Feedback forum. For example, folks there could help each other "polish" up some of their best songs before uploading to Our Stage.

It would also be great to see Daniel Palmer appear at our next JPF song awards show! Would make for some great photos while the song "We're all in this together" is playing in the background, maybe capture that on video! LOL

As a suggestion, I'd like to see Our Stage expand their genres or "channels" as they call them. They have a great start, but hopefully they'll add a few more as their traffic and demand increases. Here's some channels I'd like to see them add:

Music:
Children's Music
Classical
Contemporary Classical
Film/Symphonic
Holiday/Seasonal Music
New Age

Vidoes:
Advertising/Promotional specialties
Educational/Lessons
History / Historical Themes
Political
Student projects (maybe under "short films")

Let's see what others say!
Michael

I read Brian's post, and visited their site, it is a great thing for artists, opportunity is always a welcome thing. As primarily a writer myself now, I didn't really see a place where I would fit in, but I may have overlooked something, it seemed a place for the artist to show their performance , and I am more in the "here's what I write category" now. Partnerships for the good of JPF is always a welcome thing though, and someone please correct me if I missed something, my eyes aren't what they used to be, come to think of it , niether are my ears...ha...MJ

Sounds like this may really be a great deal for those who perform. I'm not sure it brings much to the table for those of us who write lyrics or melodies... or both... and don't consider themselves performers.

To my way of thinking... there is only one contest. The "Charts" where the big boys and girls are plugged into the income stream big time... along with the songwriters who provided them with the opportunity for that success.

Good luck to those of you who can use this new "vehicle."

Dave

Our Stage is one of the most interesting concepts I've seen on the web. Having a tournament style contest exposes the fans of one act to every individual competing act. It opens Our Stage members to larger audiences than any other model of which I'm aware.

Michael, I like your suggestions. I'd hope many would be adopted in the future.


All the Best,
Mike

I have used it and I thought it was a great way to have my song critiqued without having people take a shot at my stuff...it is fair and anonymous...there were over 700 entries in my catagory...my song made it to #70...that means my song was thought of as at least more liked than 90% of all the songs...or it made it into the top 10% of all those songs...it made me feel good...this way no ones feeling get hurt by a harsh review...you still can post your lyrics at JPF and work on it and get crits...then when the song is ready to record go to the Ourstage site and have at it...the voting will let you know where your stuff fits in...

Though I imagine that a poorly sung song will not do well in their voting, I think if you can at least pull off a quality vocal performance and it's a great song, that you could do well. Teddy gives a great example of how you can get a sense of where the song ranks. Since it's all free, even for a pure songwriter, getting stuff up there offers more feedback and if you have a brilliant idea that connects, who knows what could happen. And even as a pure writer/non performer, if you are seeking commercial success, then this is a motivator to get someone who can sing to demo your song and give it a whirl. If you can't compete on that site, how could your compete in the industry? It seems like a friendly feedback engine and for those with strong recordings, perhaps a way to win some attention and opportunities.

I will have Daniel check any and all comments from folks. They are hungry for feedback and seem very receptive to improving their site. Daniel's already registered here I think.

Brian

I definitely would support a "New Age" category; a Comedy/Novelty might be a good idea too. "Classical" I'm not so sure about, but "Contemporary Classical" or at least "Film Score" maybe.

I think generally speaking, what I'm not liking at the moment is how the Electronic category specifically is too broad. The #1 track is basically an unprocessed female vocalist over a simple sampled beat and several synths. It's not really a dance tune - sounds like a pop or indie tune to me. Then the #2 is new age. Then you have very harsh club/techno songs competing in the same category, then you have MY material which is not really any of these categories.

There is always the risk of over-classifying, which is what happened to Garageband imo (electronic, dance, techno? what's the difference?) but I think it might not be a bad idea to have "Dance (Electronic)" and "Downtempo (Electronic)". The latter might even be able to cover New Age too, killing two birds with one stone.

I bet we'll have over 100 genres this year. (or close to it). I plan to work with them on improving and expanding their genre listings. I think we have a great handle on the subtle differences and how to categorize stuff which I know they're still working on.

Brian

Wow Ted, thanks for sharing!
I wasn't aware that some JPF folks may have already posted some of their songs at Our Stage. And you got top 70 out of 700 entries, that's pretty good!

We could certainly use Our Stage to get some meaningful feedback from an unbiased worldwide "marketplace" of fans, especially since we'd be exposed to people that have never heard of us (yet) and therefore can judge only by what they hear and not by our personality or fame, etc.

MP3 Forum idea...
I'd love to get something going on our MP3 boards where each month we could all pick or maybe "vote" for a song (from among us songwriters) that might have the best shot at winning the next contest at Our Stage. Of course we can individually decide which of our songs (if any) to upload, but I thought it would be cool to get everyone's input... like of all songs posted for the "Our Stage" pre-contest review, which song/s for each genre (channel) might have the greatest chance of winning. That might prompt some writers to specifically upload those songs.

Then they could report back their contest ranking(s) and maybe some of us will win the cash prizes! It could be a fun thing to participate in! Maybe cash-prize winners could donate 10% (or whatever) back to JPF to say "thanks guys for helping me pick my winner!" Of course all donations would be only suggested and purely voluntary, but I bet most folks will be more than happy to "recycle" a bit of their booty!

Due to the sheer size and numbers of JPF members, I bet we could "stage" more winners than almost any other musician's group in the world. Somebody's got to win, so why not us?

Michael

Besides genre, I do have one other suggestion, something that my girlfriend actually brought up. According to their FAQ, the earlier you enter in the month, the better shot you have at winning, because you will have more opportunities to be judged.

While this is pretty much fine if you plan ahead, I think it would be a nice idea if they had a system which prioritized judging of songs with lower reviews (I'm assuming the system is just random right now.) Thus Song A, entered Feb 1, doesn't have an arbitrary advantage over Song B, entered Feb 7. Not a perfect solution of course, and there really isn't much of a problem to begin with, but it would still be a helpful addition.

I like that they recently changed the site to allow you to select the style of music that you're judging.

The main problem I've run into is that sometimes the submitter will choose the wrong category for the song. I've judged a number of the "pop" category and I've used the "Off Topic" button to mention the song should be in some other category like R&B, Blues, Rap, or Electronic, or whatever, but that's really nothing that OurStage can do to prevent, I guess.

I would also like to see an instrumental category other than "electronic". "Electronic" could be anything from techno, trance, garage, D&B or disco to "Switched-on-Handel", or an electronic movie score, for instance.

I didn't see a "Smooth Jazz" or "Melodic Jazz" category, only "Jazz". There should also probably be a Jazz-Fusion category.

I've already got about a half-dozen songs in my "Favorites" there and will support the artist by purchasing some of them once I get a few more listed.

I would be curious to see how many artists have sold more than 20 downloads/month.

I'm also very curious to get an idea of the demographics of the voters. Are they mostly under 25, over 25? Musicians and other artists mainly, or what percentage are just fans of music?

Andrew,
Good ideas, but I just thought of an approach that would be closer to how JPF "creates" genres during their song awards process. I don't have it perfectly 'pinned' yet, but I'll share my idea for openers, and possibly it could be quit revolutionary if done right, so here goes...

Let the judges decide...
Why not let the fans, judges and voters decide? Let's say I upload a song and I'm not sure exactly where it fits best, or maybe that "channel" doesn't exist yet. Why not have a pre-staging area where people could hear songs from some broad general (or maybe NO) categories, but then let the voters decide how it should best be "tagged" or which channel it should BEST fit into?!

I know that most of your songs are electronic/techno/pop or whatever, but maybe the ONE song I would vote for might strike me as some other category. In the end, the majority votes rule, so if 90 out of 100 put your song in "pop/electronic", then so be it. I don't think artists would worry as long as they're getting exposure and making some sales!

Anyway, so that's my "vote" for having a dynamic on-the-fly category system. I think this would also work great for the video contests! Just enter content (music or videos) on a "wide open" basis, as with the JPF awards, and then let the fans/judges decide!

Ok, that was just my "2 cents"!

Michael

I get alot of pro demos done and am pitching those in Nashville day in day out. After reading Brian's post I'm thinking that as the writer it's ok to submit those pro demo'd songs into judging, providing that all work on the demos is done as work for hire and the writer has all rights to market and network the song. Once we get past worktape, your'e right Brian I'm not the one singing, the Nashville demo guys I'm hooked up with do that alot better, so I can compete. Who would be the one to ask for clarification on this?

If I understand the question, I think you're perfectly fine to enter the songs. This isn't really for sale even, so technically it shouldn't violate any demo versus master issues. If you wrote the song and own the demo/recording, it's yours to do whatever you want with as far as I am aware.

Brian

I'm pretty sure you're right, Brian, if you're not selling it, it's a demo. Now I don't know what Our Stage's policy is about having a different singer?

If you can do this, that will make Our Stage a powerful tool for the songwriters.

Thanks men. That's exactly what I'm looking for Mike, more powerful tools for the songwriter.

I think it's a good idea in priciple. It will tell a writer exactly where his work stands in regard to popular taste. It will also give a current standard view of where the bar lies, both in terms of writing and performance, as well as production terms. I think the only downside may be that it maybe come a victem of it's own success, and any work put up may get lost in the noise. Another good tool for the toolkit.

cheers, niteshift

Mine was a pro demo...they don't care if it is someone else singing it...it is yours...you paid someone a flat fee...it is just your song and the people vote for it...and you can also vote in your genre but not on your own...the more voting that goes on the more the songs move up or down...it is really quite simple...

Moaker..I'm sure you have lots of recordings...throw up an old one and see what happens...vote on some others ...it really is no big deal...

How about if you activate the option to sell the song for $0.99 as a download and it's a demo? Now you've crossed the line, right?

It depends on several things. Did you use Union players? If so, then unless you have a contract or agreement that these are masters and not demos, you'd need to change the terms and pay them appropriately. If it's not union players, then I am not aware of any responsibility for demo versus masters. It's always been my understanding that the issue really involved union work.

But I will defer to the real expert on this, Mike Dunbar.

Brian

It all depends on your contract, has nothing to do with it being union or not. If your contract says it's a "demo" then you're not supposed to sell it. IANAL, but I'm certain there's a legal distinction between a "demo" and an item for sale. You might remember in the old vinyl album days, some albums had holes drilled in the jacket corner that missed the record? This was so it would not be sold commercially, the record company could account for it differently.

The union contracts for recording designate if it's a demo or a master of a limited pressing master. If a demo house's contract or product designates "demo," then they are intending it to be one. Of course, some demo houses make no distinction between demo and master, this is a lawsuit waiting for a spot on Judge Judy. I recommend that folks get a "work for hire" from the demo house.

Besides all this, Our Stage, in its agreement, states that they have the right to see written proof that the work is available for sale, union or not.

Hope that helps.

Mike

Mike,

Who in the real world, if not using union performers, has a contract written up for someone to play on a demo? Does it happen, sure.. now and then. But is it common? No, not that I have seen out there. Rarely would it even occur to someone to draw up a contract if they had a buddy play guitar on their recording. I don't even often see contracts (again, outside a union) for recordings on full blown album projects. There's sometimes a contract with the producer and artist, but not so often with the musicians involved.

Maybe I am totally missing something, but that's been the reality I've seen over the years. That said, if a contract of some type exists, it trumps everything else anyway and would already be spelled out alleviating the need to wonder.

Brian

Brian, I don't recall writing "written contract." Every sale has a contract, written, verbal, or transactional. If folks want to offer a recording for sale, I'd recommend a "work for hire" agreement from all the musicians and the producer.

Folks might find the word "demo" on their cd or on their receipt or on their check. they might find a definition of "demo" on the studio's literature. The name of the studio might be "Joe's Demo Studio." If Joe sues, that would lend some weight to a "he said, she said, we said" argument.

It's the "Whiter Shade of Pale" theory that's made the "work for hire" increase to the point where it will soon be the norm, even with a union contract.

Again, however, it's a moot point. Our Stage's terms and agreement say that they have the right to see written proof that the recording is free to be sold commercially.

Interesting. Do you think that there's an assumed contract with people who play on a recording which guarentees rights in a similar way that there's an automatic equal split of songwriting credit unless a contract exists to the contrary? Maybe there is, but if so, I've never heard of it before. We need a lawyer in here to fill us in, though I am not sure if Stu would be up on this topic.

Brian

Some additional feedback, via girlfriend! (www.jilliangoldin.com - wonderfully talented, classically trained soprano who does new age/ethnic fusion music as well as studio vocals)

A penalty for people who miscategorize songs. She has been listening to the "World" category and keeps hearing rap/hip-hop with absolutely nothing to do with world music; no ethnic instruments of any kind, etc. People who do this should definitely have some sort of punishment for clogging the system. She ran into no less than FOUR rap/hip hop songs in just a handful of minutes, plus a rock/blues song...

I gave them similar feedback early on and I know that Daniel took it seriously and they're working on improving the categorization. I think that's a major issue that they need to fix for it all to work smoothly. It's one thing to hear a really bad song and have to get through it. But it's actually worse to hear an out of genre song, even if it's good, when you wanted to hear something else. I'll make sure he's reading these suggestions and I have a bunch of things that folks told me via the feedback of our 30 due diligence crew.

Brian

According to U.S. business law, when contract terms are omitted (or a written contract is not present) the industry standard is generally applied to any given situation when a dispute arises. For example, if you sell beef, and you have a contract with someone to provide them with 100 pounds of beef per month, but do not include a price for the beef, it is assumed the person will pay you the standard (fair market) price for beef. If you neglect to put a term of delivery, then you are expected to deliver the beef within an amount of time that beef is typically delivered in.

This often works in conjunction with the concept of an implied contract, wherein behavior and standards can create a contract between individuals without words being spoken or written on paper. This happens all the time. You might walk into any old barber, sit in a chair, and then hand the barber a $20 bill. No explicit offer was made that the barber would cut your hair. But the act of walking in and sitting on the chair is behavior implying that you want a haircut and will offer a reasonable sum for one. Implied contracts are just as valid as any other kind.

So, in the case of musicians recording for a demo, the question is not whether there is an implied contract - there is - but rather whether or not the industry standard is when it comes to them getting rights.

I don't know anything about demo recording, so I don't know the answer for certain. However, when it comes to studio musicians in general, the standard is that they are work for hire, so I can't imagine it would be any different because they're recording for a demo.

When hiring studio musicians, I have never used contracts. If playing a session, it is quite obvious that you are a service, are paid for that service, do not hold any rights to the recording, nor to the copyright, end of argument. It's a work for hire arrangement, and the recording is the sole property of the producer.

cheers, niteshift

When I hire a session player (especially someone I don't know), I will have them sign a single-page "Work for Hire" contract before I hit the record button. This is at the strong and repeated urging of my attorney. That contract specifies that they will receive no additional compensation after that day regardless of whether the song makes any money or not.

I think Work for Hire contracts are unnecessary if you and a writing partner are performing all the parts. If you want your buddy to play guitar on your song and want to make money from it, I think it's wise to ask him/her to sign that little diddy. You may not make any money from the song, but what would happen if it suddenly started making a few thousand a quarter from some movie or TV placement, and it was the cool guitar part that brought it attention? Friendships have ended in situations like that.

My post above that generated some discussion was basically geared towards the songwriters who will pay a production company or producer to have a high quality demo done in Nashville using "B" list union players (guys who aren't necessarily first call, but still get plenty of major label work). They will have been paid the demo rate per the local Musician's Union rate sheet, but the recording will be near-major label quality. There are more than a few studios that are used for both demos and for masters - depending on who books the room.

However, the Union perspective is that the musicians worked for a "discounted rate" on the assumption that the song will not be sold - it was a demo. It's not that the musicians will get backend royalties (it was still a work for hire), it's that they would have been paid differently (more) if the song had been presented as a "master". I think the likelihood of "getting caught" isn't high since the song probably won't be selling in the 10's of thousands, but it does open the door to some unwanted attention by the Union and you probably don't want to go there.

I'm simply saying that if OurStage (or any other site) got a reputation for selling demos made with union musicians (as downloads), then the legal guys might want to get involved.

Maybe I'm off base and this is done all the time at Soundclick, CDBaby, and other music download sites, but I still think there could be a legal liability.

What do you think, Mike?

I think this. It's a moot point. As I wrote earlier, Our Stage has stated in their terms and conditions that they insist that folks have written proof, and they reserve the right to ask for this proof at any time.

The other theories and so on are interesting, but have no relevance to Our Stage.

I will say this, however.

Last night I entered my song "Mama's Dancing" in the acoustic section of Our Stage. It entered at 434. This morning it is 153.

I use a number of studios to demo for me, some send me a release work for hire form with each demo I receive, some give me a signed form stating that all songs they demo are works for hire and free from any future claim, free to be used for any purpose.

I hope that covers me.

I use a number of studios to demo for me, some send me a release work for hire form with each demo I receive, some give me a signed form stating that all songs they demo are works for hire and free from any future claim, free to be used for any purpose.

I hope that covers me.

Actually this is VERY interesting, but as Mike says, it's off topic at this point and I am sorry we've veered so far off the topic of Ourstage. But taking Andrew's comments at face value, it sure it intersting to think about what is industry standard, and expecially when it comes to stuff that happens on the web. Who in the heck knows what is ACTUALLY indutstry standard. (After all, what if the standard is to screw people over?). So, moving on, I am very happy so far with all the glowing feedback we're getting on OurStage. Please keep giving us and them feedback on the service and how it can be used and improved.

Brian

Yes, very interesting points raised on this top of recording and right's ownership. In my case, I have a "mix" of talent resources that I've managed over the years to create my recordings. They include: a few "for-hire" vocalists, one or two volunteer singers, one guitarist (Rob Cambell) and a drummer (Sub Studio), but these comprise less than 25% of my total material.

The rest is all my own work recorded and produced in my own studio. For the situations where I paid other musicians, the "proof" is with my payment checks. Obviously, strictly "works-for-hire" and nothing else.

Most of my songs are now officially registered with the U.S. copyright office and my CD (with 16 tracks) is posted at CD Baby for official retails sales, distribution and licensing.

On several songs I also have a lyrics co-writer in which case the split is a basic 50/50. We all have "split letter" forms on file, but (strangely) it's rare that anyone insists on actually signing and filing them, though the option is always open; so it's more like an "implied" agreement, plus it's usually mentioned by phone or maybe in an email.

Regardless, the 50/50 split is probably one of the most standard practices in the songwriting industry.

If I have a doubt about contest prize "splits", I would simply contact my co-writer or collaborator, before uploading to Our Stage, to agree on our prize split. Most likely it will be 50/50, so of course we'd both have equal incentive for success.

Beyond what I described above, I'm not sure how I would best "prove" to Our Stage that I'm the actual author, composer, copyright owner, producer and true authentic owner of my own music. At the very least, I'd be willing to sign a document that states that indeed I am the true and original copyright owner and publisher of any song in question, for example, if it won a huge cash prize or something. Nice "problem" to have, eh?

Michael

I'm at 148! I'd slid back to 161 earlier, but now I've made a comeback. I'm the Our Stage Comeback Kid!

I'd like to thank all the little people, the munchkins, Mickey Rooney, Herve Villachaize, Paul Williams, Johnny Puleo.

I think this is one of the good things (of many) about OurStage.. it can give you a little positive nudge without charging you money for it.. and since it CAN'T just be your friends doing it (or the friends of others) it makes it a lot more valid. Someone obviously felt positively about your work.

Brian

Sitting in the 30s with two of my tracks from Antigravity. It'll be interesting to see where they go; they each are #1 or #2 on Garageband in their respective categories.

I've been checking out some of the videos and there's some really great animators involved there. Their scripts aren't so great, but it's clear their talent visually is there. It would be interesting for some of those lyric writers here with a storytelling angle/expertise to work with some of the animators there. I think that's a whole new art form just waiting to be developed for our lyric only folks.

Brian

Yes, great idea Brian!
And of course after the lyrics & story have been developed, the next step would be to add music and vocals to sing the lyrics.
That would make for some very cool collaborations!

Michael

OK, took the plunge with 2 songs, we'll see what happens. I like the voting system, just random songs placed up against one another if I see it correctly. Very hard to manipulate, and should say something about your own tracks in a genre compared to every one elses.

cheers, niteshift

I submitted my songs too.

I think this is the best among the rest. No one can rig the system.

BEst thing to do is have the folks critique our songs first, to several boards fine tuned everything when all is good submit the song for monthly contest.

Goodluck folks!!!

Lynman

I could use a simple work for hire form...if someone could pm me maybe I could get them to send a form via email...also hint about how to fill the thing in...thanks

OK, this is absolutely atrocious. I've been judging World entries for the last 10 minutes and I have yet to encounter a song pair where one of the songs was not an outright violation of the category. TONS of hip hop & R&B. A bunch of MIDI film scores. Some ambient trance with no ethnic instruments at all. What the hell? The "World" category at least is so crippled that it seems like there are hardly any legitimate entries whatsoever. I have literally gone through 10 songs straight that are all CLEAR violations. This needs to be addressed immediately as it is a serious problem.

they're offline now for about the last 20 minutes, growing pain glitches is my guess, I judged about 8 or 10 country showdowns, they were all country songs atleast, a few of them pretty good. Saw a Chuck Crowe song pop up on there, way to go Chuck...I put two in the hat we'll see what happens...Moker

Good point Andrew!
I think something needs to be done about these "evasive" kinds of category listings. I believe there must be a better approach waiting to be developed; something that allows the majority of the voters (judges) to decide exactly what category a song should best fit into, or at least if there's a serious doubt or question.

Solving the "misplaced channel" problem:
Let's say you hear something that obviously should be in a diff. channel, then you could suggest (in the voting process) that it should move to channel "x" from a pull-down list. The options would include everything available, so that would make it easy for the OurStage admin team to manage.

If more than 50% of the voters suggest a diff. channel for any song, it automatically MOVES over to that channel.

Within a few days, every song on the site would pretty much be "slotted" into the best (most appropriate) channel without it "punishing" artists for not knowing how to best categorize their entries. Same goes for videos and to go one step further, OurStage could also allow "write-in" channels to help create NEW channels on-the-fly according to popular demand.

For example, they could offer write-ins for primary or sub-genre channels. I think this better accomodates music in creative new styles and formats. This is needed because the best artists have always helped create new styles which haven't been defined before, at least not until after a lot of artists have started to copy them. Since that is part of the creative pattern, why not encourage it rather than bottle-neck it?

Michael

Michael, just an aside, but I love your Bach quote.

My favorite Bach quote is actually from Leo Kottke: "Bach had twenty children because his organ didn't have any stops."

Actually we discussed the genre classification problems with them prior to going live with the community partnership. They are aware of it. This is the EXACT reason we do not allow artists to choose what genres they want their music in in our awards. Musicians are HORRIBLE as a group in determining or even understanding what genres of music they make.

This site is still new. They have been going through a lot of growth very quickly and I think they are contemplating how to improve things, without exerting undue influence on the process (i.e. keeping it democratic). I've always felt that all the digital sites fall short when music isn't classified properly. I get a lot of flack for that from people who say they want to do away with all "genre" classifications.. that's stupid to be blunt. Genres are aids to help people find music they are in the mood for and want to hear. We need to make it easy and pleasant for people to enjoy our music, especially when they don't know who we are to start with. Why make it a random and very unpleasant experience to people forcing them to hear music they may even hate, let alone don't want to hear. Anyone who things genres are a bad thing have a fundamental flaw in their entire understanding of how people consume music. When you have unlimited choice in music you need some help to find what you're in the mood for or what you like, and even more than that, you need help AVOIDING that which you don't like. If you hate rap, why should you ever be forced to hear it? If you hate country, why cram it down someone's throat?

I think we can actually help them over the course of time with the subject of genres. They have a lot of improving to make but the way I see it is that part of our partnership is to offer contructive feedback and suggestions for solutions to our partners. I do that often with our other partners and vice versa. It should be a two way street and when we partner with folks, I want to help them succeed because that only helps us in return in the short and long run. Let's work with them to improve on what they need help and enjoy what they're doing right. I agree, they have too few actual World Music songs in the system to overcome all the miscategorized stuff. Perhaps artists felt they could sneak in a win due to lack of competition, even though it's in the wrong category.. we all KNOW that musicians are capable and willing to do anything for attention and perceived success. I'll definitely ask them to check out these comments and I feel confident that they'll find a way to improve this one flawed area in their system.

Brian

I couldn't find a way to switch genres' in the edit section. I originally chose "acoustic" before I found that they had a "singer/songwriter" genre.
It really doesn't matter much because my submitions would fit both, but I would prefer "singer/songwriter". Ben

Brian,
Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us about these "genre" matters. I'm happy for the partnership between JPF and OurStage. I agree that in time things will be improved, even if it's only one (slightly) flawed area. Overall, OurStage is still ahead of the "game" on most of what they're doing, so with a bit of patience, feedback and brainstorming, I'm sure it will come together and get perfected! I bet that's what everyone's hoping, wishing & praying for, so let's keep at it.

Also, I'm very glad everyone here's being so open, honest and cooperative about sharing our thoughts, experiences and suggestions. Music contests involve thousands of people, so it effects the WHOLE community. Glad to see so much progress being made in such a short time!

Meanwhile, I'm encouraging everyone on these boards to continue sharing your thoughts and constructive ideas. That's what'll make the difference between "their stage" and Our Stage! LOL

Michael

Ben,
I see what you mean! Maybe open a "ticket" with their techhelp support and ask what their policy is about changing your Channel after you've entered your songs into live contests. Perhaps they'll allow a change on a "per request" basis, or maybe it's closed for the whole month.

I know you can ask for your song listing to be removed, and then simply upload it again into a different channel. That will work because I've already explored that option, but maybe they'll eventually give us a simpler, more direct option.

Best regards,
Michael

What bit rate can you upload in? I'm on dialup and uploading or listening to streams in high quality is almost impossible.

I was able to join, upload music, etc., but had trouble getting the banner over to my myspace site. Has this been an issue?

Anyways, this is pretty cool!

I also can't find a way to remove a song that I submitted. You can remove it from competition but not from the site. I submitted the wrong version of a song so I had to remove it from competition and upload the prefered version and start all over.
I sent them an e-mail about this. Ben

I am a musician who is admittedly horrible at classifying my own songs. I write different styles, but songs take on their own lives while being written. Once it's done, I usually wonder what it is.

Lately I see more and more genres, making it more--not less--confusing.

I do like how Our Stage defines their categories in the FAQ section.

Hi there,

Daniel Palmer here from OurStage. Thanks for the great channel suggestions. I'm sold on all the music ones. But you called it as the traffic/demand increases we'll respond. Since I've joined the team we split out Alt. Rock/Indie into separate channels, added Americana/Alt. Country, Christian/Spiritual (hugely active), Emo and we're gearing up to overhaul the hip/hop channels. So we're definitely active on this front. FYI, I've logged your channel suggetions in the same place we log suggestions from OurStage members who send us similar suggestions through our customer service email.

So, when's the award show? I'm there! Stop by my OurStage profile and say hi anytime: http://www.ourstage.com/fanclub/dannyjames

The way I did was I went to OurStage, MyProfile. I clicked Banners and copied the HTML embed code. Then I went to MySpace and edited in "Safe Mode" and updated the MY BIO section with the copied HTML code. That seemed to work for me.

Check out my MySpace page for a sample: http://www.myspace.com/danielpalmer. My banner is there. Message me if you still have troubles. Banners are great promo tool for you (and they look super cool, I think)

-Daniel

Ben,

Thanks for sending this to our Customer Service. We have a process to handle this, but I'd be interested in your feedback. Let me know at http://www.ourstage.com/fanclub/dannyjames

Hey Mark! Thanks for Kudos on the category definition. We spent a lot of time on it, but can always be refined. In terms of categorization, this is really a tricky one. Option A, we do it for you, Option B, you do it and we move you to a new category (or suggest you move your song to a more appropriate category). We choose B because of resource, time and actually we've found improved community involvement when suggestions about off topic songs are sent to us and we take action. For now we're continuing the program of the community helping us to manage content. So go ahead and put your song where you think it belongs. The community will help us to decide! Thanks again for being on OurStage.

-Daniel Palmer

Nice to meet you, Danny!

Option A sounds nearly impossible for you to manage...some songs need a fairly long listen before you can call it properly...and you have how many thousand rolling in each month?

If I catch your meaning about Option B, you simply wait for someone judging it to flag it? So a song placed in the wrong category could conceivably remain there, right?

I actually DID misplace the first song I uploaded, into Alt Country before I noticed you did indeed have a place for "classic" country. Let's see what happens...

One thing, I wish there was a good way to see the overview of current rankings in each chart without seeing only 10 at a time and having to scroll scroll scroll.

I'm sure you will continue to improve, but I am grateful to find an exceptionally cool concept...I've been telling all my friends. Good luck on a great venture!

-Mark

Thanks Daniel, I just got a response from Bonnie.
She says that for security reasons that there is currently no way to remove a mistaken upload from your home page, but to send an e-mail with the title of the song and they will remove it for me. Thanks, Ben

Thanks Mark. Please keep the feedback coming!!

Hi Danny!
Nice to meet you and glad to see you visiting our little "water hole" here at JPF. I know you'll be busy with your main job at OurStage, but thanks for dropping in and "checking" with us once in a while. Glad to hear about all the great plans you've got in the works at OurStage and with JPF!

Best regards,
Michael

We might also be able to distinguish JPF member votes from other OurStage community votes as a way to see how the community viewed the tracks compared to JPF members.

I like the idea of lists too. Just HTML with links to the songs and comments if any. Thanks Mark!

Send me a link to your profile. I'd love to hear your track on OurStage!

Thanks for supporting the artists with purchased downloads. Its not the biggest part of the site (YET). But it will get more attention in the coming days. We have a great demo of mature music fans, our artists range in age (Something Behind, the #2 Jan. finals) are teens from Sweden. More categories are in store. But thank you for flagging the off topic content. Flagged content will be withdrawn from the wrong channels.

That's a great idea. Tagging is something we could potentially use on OurStage as well. Very common now out on the Web.

Danny,

I suggest that you quote the stuff you're replying to so we know what it is. As it is now, your responses are stacking up but it's impossible to know what you are replying to. = ) Are you able to read your responses? They're on page 2 of the post.

Brian

I decided to join and I added "There's A Drought Going On" to the February contest. I thought I would start out last with nowhere to go but up, but actually I am 261/262 (?). And I realized that I could go lower, if others entered and leap frog me!

I only did one judging round and my impression was -- wow! you had better have a top notch demo if you plan to go anywhere. I am going to re-record that tune anyway and I need to upload a higher quality sample. That's for next month. This month, I'll just hang out and watch what goes on.

Kevin

I guess my home page is: www.ourstage.com/profile/kevinemmrich

Is it possible to track and view how many times any particular song has been judged? That would be interesting.

I love this idea. I want to automate the process as much as possible. Community ears are great, but a combo of tags + votes would be cool as well. The issue is we HAVE to get stuff out of the channels if they are off topic ASAP, else the judging quickly loses appeal. We've been aggressive about it this month and have noticed significant increase in battles judged. So I think for the short term ears and engagement are what will work best. Longer term we could move to a model you suggested.

-Daniel

Danny... told ya so! = )

I just want to say I've been listening to some of the songs in a few catagories- two at a time is cool- and having a lot of fun choosing (judging) one and moving on. It's quick and easy. But it's totally random how the songs come up, right? I haven't seen anyone that I recognize from here pop up yet, though I do read the names of each song! Oh well...maybe on the next turn...

Daniel,
Here's a possible solution for your consideration.
Maybe you can create a "Wild Card" Channel to resolve the "Off Topic" problem.
Here's how it would work:

If artists choose to place their song in this channel, then it's up to the judges (voters) to decide which channel it SHOULD belong in. A simple majority (vote count) "rules" and automatically moves that track into the voted channel.

This would also work as a "catch all" for tracks that get kicked out of a channel because they are truly "OFF TOPIC"! (For example, finding Hip-Hop tracks in the World channel)

Once a track gets entered (by artists) or moved (by judges) into the "Wild Card" channel, it becomes open game for judges to suggest (by vote) which channel to move it too. The Wild Card channel could also attract judges & fans that might enjoy hearing more variety while also having the "power" to help move songs into the most appropriate channels.

Some "Wild Card" guidelines:
It might take at least 3 votes (from 3 diff. judges) to move a song OUT of an inappropriate channel. That will probably happen quickly in the case of obvious Off Topic violations. Once a song has been moved to an appropriate channel it can stay their unless at least 4 judges (voters) move it into a better channel, but that's less likely to happen after the first major "move".

My guess is that within the first few days of each contest round, ALL songs will have been properly "channeled" (i.e. placed in the right channel) and there will be no "orphaned" or "off topic" songs left on any channel. Problem solved!

Bottom line... I think moving a song to a more appropriate channel is a better idea then deleting or removing songs from a contest because of "poor judgement" on the part of competing artists. Let all songs compete, but let them get MOVED into the right channel (as needed) by the judges.

I have some songs that are a "fusion" of several styles, so I would rather enter them in a Wild Card channel and let the judges (voters/fans) decide which channel to move them to. In the end, it's still the same song, so I don't mind which channel it ends up in as long as the judges like my music!

To mind comes a classic JPF judging guideline... "Vote for the songs that move you"!
Michael

Hey, Hey... my song "These Old Shoes" is at #72 out of 572 in Singer/Songwriter. I entered it three days ago. Hope it makes it down to #42* at least. Ben

*(inside joke)

Hey Ben, you're beating me.....No 184 out of 446 on the Soul/R and B. Race you to the top......

cheers, niteshift

I'm down to #47

Went back up to #91, oh well, it was nice to get in the top 10% for a while but it is only the 11th of the month. We have a long way to go.
I would imagine that OurStage has experienced a good number of submissions and overall traffic since their JPF sponsorship started. That's what it's all about. Ben

Just listened to "These Old Shoes". Trust me, 104 in S/S is a REALLY good showing. That's a heavily used channel. Keep the faith. We've got a ways to go before quarters! Great tune, btw.

Hi Danny

It's great to see you over here. I participated on Our Stage last year and really love the site. It's fun, beneficial and looks great as well.

I have a song up now in the Jazz category. Wrote & produced. My song is more Fusion. I think a "Fusion" category would be cool. It's a combo of course mainly Jazz/Rock/Funk etc...

You can check out the song here if you feel like it...

"What U Betta Do"
http://www.ourstage.com/music/channel/20-jazz/UFXYHGINCZHM-what-u-betta-do

Some folk will do anything for $5000. LOL

Danny, I was one of the folks who visited your site at Brian's request.

One comment I made to him, which bears repeating I think, is that you don't want to parse the categories too finely. Using Soundclick as an example, they have IMO far too many categories.

I'm a simple guy and feel too much choice overwhelms people....and when you get place such fine distinctions on categories, both users and listeners will begin disagreeing because "it is definitely not alt country hip hop swing"...

I liked the managable number of categories. Makes it easy to use.

For what it's worth

And I wish you the best with your well thought out and well executed plans.

I think the key is the quality of category designations/placements more than the number. We have 81 genres in the JPF awards (may have more depending on this year's entries) but we do that because we have so much quality music, we can easily find 12-20 nominees in a distinct category that deserve recognition. However, if you can't fill a category up with quality entries, I think you're better served to broaden the category to include other sub categories and then define it that way. (i.e. putting all Jazz together instead of smooth jazz, fusion, traditional jazz, instrumental jazz, acoustic jazz etc..).

It's clear Danny is interested and open to improve where possible. He's also got to balance that with not trying to please every single person which is impossible. By merely pleasing one person, that in itself will often displease someone else. You've got to simply have sound backing for what you do and then push forward. Hopefully you can bring the others to your way of thinking. I know I've done a lot of that with JPF.. and I know a lot of folks will never come around. If I waited to please them, nothing would ever get done and we'd all lose.

It's always a balancing game.

Brian

RE: Mike's post on "Fusion" I'll share with you plans for March.

1. Folk (no amplification allowed)

Changes to Hip Hop
2. Club/Dance (Soulja Boy, T-Pain, Akon, Rhianna, etc..)
3. Hip-Hop (Talib Kweli, Common, Gangstarr, Krs-1, Oh No, Pete Rock, Dilated Peoples)
4. Rap (instead of Gangsta) (Ludacris, Jay-Z, Snoop, Game, 50)
5. Alt. Hip-Hop (Gnarls Barkley, Gorillaz, Dr. Octagon)

Changes to Metal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_metal (yes, it's real, big and important to distinguish in the metal community)

I may have to add Alternative to Alt. Rock so bands with a more pop/rock sound would fit. I'm not sure I'm ready for Fusion or Progressive but it's been discussed. Lastly, Singer/Songwriter needs to be more strict. No bands. And yes, you should have written some part of the tune .

This are the plans right now at least. Like your tunes Mike. Alas a fusion category would be an ideal placement.

Re: Brian's comment on "people pleasing"

I just realized that I'm in the wrong line of work

I disagree Brian. None but the most educated\discriminating will have any idea what the differences are when you parse things too finely....

It could also lead to "gaming". Given a choice, and the flexibility, what would prevent one from shifting their entry into a "similar" but less crowded category??

But my main argument is still, keep it simple and managable...do not overwhelm people with options.

It all depends on the size of entrants in each category. Sub categories should be used to make categories with roughtly the same amount of songs.

John,

I have no idea what you're disagreeing with? My comment that the quality of the categorization is more important than adding more categories? If so, you seem to be disagreeing with yourself. Perhaps you didn't read my post in context.

Brian

I'd like to see the Jazz category split into "Smooth Jazz" and "Acoustic Jazz". There would still probably be some crossover, but this would at least separate the guys recording jazz trios from the more sample-based or electric productions.

My smooth jazz tune, "I Remember Your Smile", is now down to #31.

Brian...I guess I misunderstood your comment. I guess it was because you mentioned 81 categories in the JPF awards...blame it on my main attention being elesewheree these days

Ciao

It seems they require uploads to be 256 bit quality, a bit much for someone on dialup.

Hi Everett,

We suggest highest quality possible, but we don't require 256 bit quality, though it's in your best interest to sound as good as possible.

I'm definitely a little disappointed at how one of my songs is doing... "Warhead" - it was hovering around 50-60 in electronic and has now dropped to 174. This is a pretty popular track from my recent album and is actually getting radio airplay on some major Toronto/Ottawa radio stations (not internet radio, real radio) - so I'm confused as to why it's doing so poorly.

I also really think more needs to be done about miscategorized songs. Once again, the World category is hurting. I listened to the top 20 and several of the songs had no ethnic instruments at all. Also, is it really fair to call a French pop rock song "World"? This stuff NEEDS to be screened better, IMO. It's not fair to artists that are actually "World" who might get edged out of the quarterfinals.

Hey Andrew,

Yeah, I had a similar thing with a jazz tune, peaked at 72 and is now 155. That's a large disparity in a few days. Oh well, gotta take the good with the bad. Have a blues number sitting between 32 and 55, which seems a more appropriate range, and an Electronic number at 30 - 50 , which again, is more consistent than the large swings with the first one. Any ideas Danny ?

cheers, niteshift

So the songs are being judged on the quality of the upload and production and not the song itself!

Also I was informed that because I am from Canada I can not win the main prizes but I could win the category. Any plans of changing that in the future? Can I put songs up for sale without entering the contest?

Everett, I wouldn't worry about that. Remember that most people are perfectly content to listen to "CD Quality" 128kbps MP3s on iTunes. I don't think they're going to hear a 160 vs a 256kbps song and vote for the 256 one based on encoding quality... I think they're going to vote on personal taste, which will probably be most heavily biased by the actual musicality of the track, followed not-so-closely by general production/recording quality.

People are free to judge on any criteria they want. And you know what? That's true of all contests and awards. That's why we, from day 1, told our judges to vote on 1 criteria: Does it move you? We felt it was far more honest to allow judges to vote on what they love, rather than a set of criteria we might hand them because in the end, most will generally vote for their own criteria anyway which would lead to innaccurate results if a set of guidelines forced some to vote differently.

In my own case, if the vocals are horrible, it's going to be very difficult for me to give the song support unless it's up against another song with horrible vocals. In those cases, I often simply vote for a tie. If someone doesn't believe in their song enough to find someone who can at least sing in tune (or in the ballpark of in tune) then why should I care about it either? It would sort of be like a restaurant serving food on a steaming pile of dog crap and saying "we couldn't afford plates.. but the food is really really good." Ack. If you can't sing, lose the ego part and find a neighbor or relative or local singer who can't play an instrument or write a song who wants to get a recording of their voice to do your songs. If you don't, then don't be disappointed when you get no where. I've never believed in the lame story that industry folks will "hear past" a bad demo. Only people who want your money (or something else from you) tell you that anymore. There is simply too much music out there with great performances and great lyrics and great melodies to waste time on anything less today. It's time for a reality check for folks.

Granted, in the case of the JPF Awards we're not a "contest," so we're awarding a great song based on all factors that might appeal to a listener, not just technical or creative aspects alone. If you're forced to judge between 2 horrible songs and MUST pick one over the other, then I suppose a badly sung song could get the nod. We don't have that problem in our awards due to the amount of excellent stuff we receive. Excellent stuff, well recorded, well performed and well written gets eliminated so stuff less than that never really get in the mix.

An exception: If bad singing was by design to get an artistic point across (or part of the character of it all) and the creator was successful at making it work, it might still succeed. But the reality is bad vocals will nearly always result in losing to something better and it should. On the reverse, I could care less if a song is a full production or a single instrument or a cappella if it's reasonably in tune and gets the vision of the song across. There's a huge difference between a limited production done well and an elaborate one done poorly. We get full blown studio recordings here where people spent thousands of dollars but then had some horrific warbling over the top of them vocal wise.. those never get far.

As long as the song can be heard, the upload quality doesn't matter. Upload a low quality version of a Rolling Stones song and it will still sound fine. Upload a WAV file of a piece of crap and it will still be a piece of crap.

Brian

Brian. I'm very excited about OurStage. I think it's a great site and appreciate your bringing it to us. I was surprised at very first song I heard: "Divine", by Wonderfool. Is this the kind of song other JPF members enjoy?

I haven't heard it Richard but JPF has musicians doing every genre imaginable. Check out the categories from our last awards (they're listed in the nominees winners on the Awards page) to see the diversity among our membership. The folks who frequent the boards are often a bit less diverse coming mostly from the Country, Christian and Rock genres (with a few exceptions here and there). But we had 81 distinct genres last time in the awards and I bet we push that to 85 or more this year.

Brian

Ha... that's funny Brian, and oh so true!!

Michael

Sorry for the aside Brian but you hit on a peeve of mine

A few years back, people began saying "I could care less" instead of "I couldn't care less" because of the supposed double negative....but that is a load of crap.

I couldn't care less means I am unable to care less because I care so little now, caring less is simply not doable

I could care less on the other hand means I am able to care less


I know, you couldn't care less about this aside

But I COULD care less... this is a perfect example. I care less about "spelling police." See, I was right in the first place. = )

Brian

So, we're in the quarterfinals now, and the World category is still in desperate need of attention. There are songs in the top 10 that are, to me, obviously off-topic. It seems like no one has read the actual guidelines OurStage has put forth regarding what fits in that category. For example, there's a song with a bossa nova groove, Spanish style playing, and Spanish vocals. That's all well and good, but there's a "Latin" category which is specific for that kind of music! Then there are songs with one ethnic drumloop in the background with completely Western sounds, writing, vocals, etc. I don't think that is "World", I think that is "Rock" or "Jazz" or the actual PRIMARY genre of the piece.

Because we're now in the quarterfinals I implore the OurStage staff to please be more proactive in removing or re-classifying songs that are in the wrong genre!

If I may make a suggestion on how to improve things, or rather, two suggestions;

1. When judging, there should be a prominent description of the genre being judged right above the songs that are playing. Then, in red text, fans should be asked to please flag any songs that don't fall into that description as "Off Topic"!

2. When uploading a song, the system should STOP you once you select a genre and do the following;

* Display a description of the genre you picked and say, "Are you sure this is what you want?"

* Provide alternative suggestions for genre classification. eg. If you pick World, it should say "Is your song primarily Latin or Spanish in style? If so, please select the LATIN category." It seems like many people simply aren't reading the guidelines or looking through all the categories, so by doing this, problems could be avoided.

Andrew,

I've been in regular discussions with the Ourstage folks helping them redefine their genres. They are making significant changes starting March 1.. but they can't really make changes during a contest.. and they certainly can't remove a song in the finals.. that's simply not fair to anyone. Folks are making 2 mistakes.. miscategorizing their own music.. and then another large group are voting on that music to move forward. A lot of folks are blowing it, but it's not really Ourstage's fault. They ARE taking the issue very seriously and are working quickly to improve where they can. But unless they take over categorization (like we do with the JPF awards) they're always going to have these problems. It's the same reason Jethro Tull won for Best Metal album in the Grammys so famously. They entered their album into that category.. and then the judges didn't care it was in the wrong place, they simply loved Jethro Tull. There's going to be winners who don't fit the definition.. it's unavoidable if you let artists and fans make the decisions without a savvy industry person interceding. They want to be Democratic so I feel their pain trying to find a system to make it all work and still stick to their "democratic" minded system.

Brian

Should there be a cut off date early in the month? I entered on the 12th and found an increase of appox. 200 submissions in the genres that I entered since then.
Does it sound fair for someone to submit a song toward the end of the month while most people had there songs in the competition for the whole month? It just doesn't seem right to me, but I may be wrong. Someone enlighten me. Ben

I would think that the earlier in the month you enter - all other factors being equal - you would have a better chance to rising higher.

I entered my Jazz tune on Feb. 6th, and it's risen to #19 as of today (the 23rd). Certainly someone who entered two days ago would not have a chance to rise that quickly.

Maybe the best solution IS to have a cutoff date of around the 10th or 15th. Anything entered after that would be counted in the following month's ratings.

I work with OurStage.com and we are constantly trying to make the site better. If any artists want to get their songs up on there you can go through my page and I will try to help you out and plug your songs along the way.
www.ourstage.com/go/keithp

Let me know if you need any help signing up.

Keith,

Just posted another one. And, I'll take any help I can get with plugging it. I'm registered as Al David and the song is "Cross Eyed & Tongue Tied" in the on the Jazz channel. Thanks!

Al

Keith,

Are you here as an official rep of Outstage, or are you here as an official rep of Skyelab Studios? It's important for our members to know they are 2 different things.

Brian

Brian,

I hope that Keith returns to answer your question himself. But, for what it is worth, when you click onto the link he posted, it takes your straight to "Our Stage" and addresses nothing but his affiliation with "Our Stage". No mention of "Skyelab Studios" exists what-so-ever. He is their (Our Stage)field rep for Indie and hard Rock music. As I said, FWIW.

Al

I am aware of that Al. But he's also posting on other stuff with links to Skyelab. So I just want to clarify which he's representing when he posts. We have a Community Partnership with Ourstage, but I don't know much about his other company so I want to clarify they aren't the same thing. We're essentially vouching for Ourstage. We are not informed about the other company.

The reason for my posts on this issue is that I've received emails already asking whether we were also endorsing Skyelab and the answer is we don't know anything about them. Keith is welcome to talk about and promote his services with Skyelab, I just want to keep the line between Ourstage and Skyelab clear so folks don't get confused.

Brian

I entered 3 songs for March at OurStage and I pretty much languishing at the back of the pack ( http://www.ourstage.com/fanclub/kevinemmrich ). Roll Daddy Roll is 519 out of 622 entries in R&B/Soul, Dark Recesses is 700/1053 in Rock and Let that River Flow is 801/944 in Singer/Songwriter.

I am pretty confident that the OurStage is a good indication of where your songs really "are" since the judging seems very difficult to scam. I guess it means my songs just aren't where they need to be yet. The truth hurts, but the truth also set us free. I see no reason to pursue expensive demos if my songs can't make it into the top 10%.

Excellent site, I just need to get better.

Kevin

Hi,
Sorry I am just getting back to post now. OurStage.com and Skyelab Studios are two completely different things. I mostly chat about my production experience through my day job with Skyelab Studios, but I personally am also a field rep for OurStage. So when I saw that OurStage became a community partner with JPF I thought I would share my experince with them as well. Sorry for any confusion, but as Brian and I said, the 2 companies are not related at all.

Hi all,

I've been on the road for the past three weeks (NoisePop, CMW and SXSW--whew!). I've been out of the loop for a bit. Would love to answer any questions or new topics related to OurStage. Glad to see the conversation continues. Just wanting to get back into the swing of things.

Hey Danny,

Any additional genre changes for next month?

Brian

Wow, this month, Jill and I have a total of four tracks (between the two of us) in the quarterfinals. At the moment, I am #1 in Techno and she is #1 in New Age/World (I am #2!) Here's hoping at least half of the tracks make it to the semifinals.

Being on dialup I can't even take part. Oh woe is me.

Andrew & Jill!
Congratulations on your current high rankings in the quarter finals of the New Age/ World channel! I've been watching and judging the entries there all this month, and yesterday afternoon you songs popped up right at the top. I was so excited I gave you a phone call and left a message about maybe doing licensing/promomotion deal, so please give me a call if you're interested in my offer!

Meanwhile, I voted and voted and voted... at least 30 + battles yesterday afternoon. A lot of them involved your songs and at least once I had to judge between your 1st and 2nd place, which was very exciting but also difficult. They're both so well done, so I voted "same" in that case and 97% of the judges agreed with me!

I've also been actively voting in several other channels including Christian/Spiritual, Folk, R&B, Acoustic and watching the Jazz genre as well. There's some great stuff being showcased this month.

Best wishes with your current entries!
Michael

Hey Michael,

Thanks! I got your messages by the way, sorry I haven't been around much, doing some apartment shopping with Jill... but I'll give ya a call tomorrow (Sun)

Looks like we are in the semifinals now, and still #1. It's awesome - on behalf of both of us, thanks for the support! One of our friends (sgx) is also #1 in his category, Electronic, with the track Coactive.

Andrew,
Ok, very nice, thanks!
I did a ton of voting the other day and early this afternoon ALL 4 of your songs were still in the number 1 & 2 slots for both New Age / World (Hajime & Antigravity)
http://www.ourstage.com/music/channel/25-world
and Techno/Club/Dance (Breathing You In & Mindbender).
http://www.ourstage.com/music/channel/79-techno

Obviously they haven't given your songs any "handicap" so you flew right past their pro-level radar!

What I like about the OurStage format is that it's not just a "songwriting" contest but the whole song, arrangement and production are all factored in unlike many other contests. The top winners are ready for media play and broadcast quality promotion and licensing, etc. Best of all there's a steady stream of new material on a monthly basis, not just once a year (or longer) as with most song contests.

Less than 6 hours left and then off to the final rounds!
Looks like you've got an excellent shot! I'll log back in tomorrow for the final day of voting!

Michael

Looks like Jill and I made it into the finals with "Breathing You In" and "Hajime". We're in the top 20, but not in the top 10... I think we'll need some serious support to topple the current high-ranking tracks!!

Andrew,

Ask and ye shall receive! = )

Congrats on winning the 5K Andrew and Jill! Two category first place finishes and 1st and 3rd overall.

Brian

WOW!!

Way to go, Andrew and Jill!

Man, yesterday was one of the most tense days we've ever had... all I can say is THANK YOU to everyone that voted for us at any point in this month's contest! Jill of course is absolutely ecstatic as well. This coincided with the news that our application was accepted for an apartment in Ardmore, PA that was our first choice. Definitely a good way to start the week.

Edit: Just to be clear, Jill was the sole grand prize winner for "Hajime". She wrote, produced, and performed the song. I just did the mixing/mastering and some add'l production on it. Our collab "Breathing You In" (which I did all the production for and most of the writing) did come in 3rd, and I'll be entering that again next month for sure!

Congrats Jill & Andrew!
I saw it coming... especially over the last weekend as we went from the quarter to the semi-final rounds. Suddenly on the last day (March 31st) I realized that two of your songs where in the FINALS and "weighted" at the front of the pack in 1st and 2nd place. This was late yesterday afternoon and after my dinner, there was only about 3 hours left for voting.

I had a very long day yesterday so it got late and I figured I'd confirm the final outcome on Tuesday morning; but last I checked shortly after midnight (Boston time zone), it appears that Hajim had reached 1st place! It was a wonderful surprise and I was going to SHOUT about it but I wasn't sure because each time I refreshed the page the songs seemed to get shuffled around, so probaby it was the last few minutes of tabulating the scores before releasing a final outcome.

Anyway, this morning I checked again and found the final results posted on this page:
http://www.ourstage.com/winners/2008/3
You'll see Hajime at top right side of page where the $5,000 Music Grand Prize is announced!

Some contest stats:
1st out of 37 music finalist entries!
1st out of 16,481 total song entries!
1st out of a approx. 10,000 (estimated) artists!

Not sure, but that's getting close in size to some of the largest established (traditional) contests in the world such as John Lennon and the USA Songwriting Competition. I think both of those together don't add up to the size of the JPF song awards. I'm sure Brian can confirm this.

Once again, congrats & mega cheers!
Michael

We're at about 300,000 songs so far in this year's awards. Last time we had 350,000 so it looks like we'll probably pass that by a little, but not as likely by a huge number as we expected initially. (Not to say that 300-400K songs is a small number, it's ridiculously huge).

This was the first full month of JPF member being involved in the process so it's great to see success already for our folks. I listened to all the winners and frankly there's plenty of room for a lot more of our members to do well in this competition. I hope folks will continue to enter and get involved.

Brian

Bump!
I'd also like to hear from Danny what's up with their current Genre/Channel plans. It's getting harder to spot changes because at last count there was 23 channels, but some could already be slightly renamed for the April contest. So far I haven't seen any new (or major) changes, but maybe I should take a closer look and compare with the March list I posted last week.

Michael

Looks like they rearranged hip hop a bit: they now have three categories, "Hip Hop", "Alt. Hip Hop", and "Rap/Gangsta Rap". The special entry categories also changed a bit, but they change every month. I think the "Hard Rock" category may also be new.

My apologies in advance if this has already been discussed, but...

I notice that you need to listen to at least 15 seconds of each song before you can judge. When I got that pop-up window reminding me of this fact, I realized I've been making these judgments faster and faster and faster. I also realized how unfair it is of me to rate someone's song based on such a skimpy listen. Then I also realized this is probably the norm...listen until you get the drift, then move on.

I am aware that professional screeners often listen to only about 30 seconds as well (on a slow day).

But as I find myself pushing the button faster and faster...I wonder how many of us are basically judging intros. Would it be a good idea to require a longer listen? 30 seconds? A minute?

Maybe, maybe not.

And if not, I strongly suggest to anyone submitting music to put everything you've got into that first 15 seconds...it might be all they ever hear. (Start with the chorus! )

Mark,
That's also what I was experience, so I can relate 100%!

So from my experience, here's how I've adapted to their voting system:

1. I do follow the "rules" and listen to at least 15 seconds for both songs.

2. After the 15 second marks, I can move the slider bar to "fast forward" to any part of the song. Usually I slide forward to about half way and listen for a while. If it's really great, I might listen all the way to the end or at least skip forward to somewhere near the end. This gives me a quicker overview of the arrangement and "vibe" of the song. Seriously, some songs (especially instrumentals) are designed to build up towards a climax, so a bit of patience is needed to hear it develop and unfold.

3. In some cases I'll listen to the first 5 or 10 seconds and then skip forwards to the middle of the song to see if it's still the same "bad" thing or if it gets better. So I'll complete the balance of my 15 seconds min. somewhere beyond the start of the song. This makes it more interesting and sometimes I'll discover a pleasant surprise.

4. If a song really "moves" me, it will keep my interest from start to finish, so that's an indication that I should vote "More" or "Much More".

5. If both songs are equally great, I vote "same", but usually I vote "same" because both songs are equally poor.

6. On occasion after I vote for a song, I find that a large percentage of judges didn't agree with my vote. It's a bit discouraging when that happens, but it's fairly rare - maybe only once per 10 or 12 battles.

7. Most of the time over 50% of the judges agree with me and that can range all the way up to 97% which is not too uncommon.

Room for improvement:
I think the only improvement OurStage could make is to add a feature that would allow distinguishing (or qualifying) a "same" vote. For example, both "same" voted songs are either equally: poor, average or fantastic!
They could tabulate that into the final scores. After all probably half the time two songs are either equally horrible or equally great, so the question is: "What do you mean by "same"?

I've suggested this before, but I think this time I may have explained it better and provided a bit more detail. Hopefully Daniel Palmer (aka Danny) will read this suggestion and pass it along to his management team. With all OurStage already has going for them, it would be a relatively simple feature to add. I believe it will be appreciated by the voters and also provide more meaningful input in the judging process. There's just too many times when two songs are a very close match.

Michael

I don't think denoting a reason for "same" is necessary... due to all the other comparisons and rankings each song has already marked, it becomes judged just as well with a "same". Why? Because if it's the same as a song 100 points higher, it gets bumped up. If it's the same as a song 100 points lower, it gets bumped down. So the judge doesn't really need to say why. We don't rate any song, we just compare it to another.

This whole thing about judging puzzles me. There are no clear guidelines as to what we are supposed to be judging. Is it the song, the production or the technical ability of the band and singers or is it the whole thing. I too know that some songs are ropey after just a few seconds and some you have to listen till the long intro is finished to get to the crunch. That said I find that it is very common to find I am disagreeing with most. I judge the song and try to put the production and playing to one side. Some great productions but poor songs or some great players but trashy stuff that has been done to death are obviously being voted for against a better but poorly produced song.
I find it hard to make it a draw but on the few occasions that I have done so the vast majority agree. I did an experiment and deliberately voted two songs as equal when one was clearly better. Most people 87% agreed. I found that disturbing.
It is also a shame to have to vote two great songs against each other when the next two are crappy.
Perhaps a score of 1-100 for both songs would help. So less than fifty means they are both below average above 50 both are good but the one with the highest mark is the winner. Seems fairer.
The other point is with thousands of songs in some genres you cannot possibly hear and vote them all. What happens to the ones you miss. Especially when a crappy song can crop up several times. I have even had the same artist against each other with two different songs. Hardly fair on artists I have never heard.

Nah, this is the simplest way they could do it. A 1-100 rating system would be awful. I've been on lots of sites where systems like that were used. No matter how many times you tell people, they'll never remember. Some people will see "50" as a "failing" grade. Others will see it as middle of the road. When dealing with masses of people, keeping it simple is all you can do. The only guidelines you "need" to judge by are which song you like more. No need to complicate it with anything else. Normal people can't be expected to do any more, and I'm not saying that to be insulting, but your average listener has a hard time separating songwriting from production.

Twisted as this may sound, I think it is this very uncertainty that makes the OurStage judging system probably the best yet devised. All those different people making their choices for all those different reasons... In the long run, each song gets several comparisons with other songs that have earned a particular rank...over time, everything gets jostled up and down for various reasons by the multitudes...and the ones that rise to the top have consistently outmatched other songs.

It ends up mirroring what makes ANY song popular to a general public. VARIOUS reasons. Sometimes production, sometimes the voice, sometimes the lyric...but in the end, the victors were chosen more often than the others. I think it works, and it's pretty hard to rig or bias a system like that.

But I still think if you allow people to listen to only 15 seconds and then judge...a huge percentage of those people will whip through the process, and it becomes in large part a Battle of the Intros.

You may be right, but at the same time, my song "Breathing You In" has an intro that is over a minute and a half (!) long. Yet it topped its genre and went on to #3 in the Finals. Jillian's song also had an intro over 30 seconds before any vocals came in at all, and it's primarily a vocal song. While I'm sure the support of our fans helped, if people ONLY judged by intros, I'm sure these songs would not have gotten very far at all. I for one listen to the first bit of a song and then immediately jump around. You DON'T have to wait 15 seconds to start jumping around, as long as you listen to 15 seconds total.

Good point.

And if my notion was the final word, then you two must write terrific intros!

Here's another question for Danny...which button gets clicked the most? Is there a noticable bias toward the left side or the right side?

I would bet that the most selected button is "same". Every time I press that, it seems as if a majority agrees...

In restaurant menu design, they say the eye travels first to the top right of a bi-fold menu. The items that restauranteurs want to push the most are often placed in that position. I wonder if the same sort of common tendencies apply to the judging. Is there an advantage to being on the left side?

Probably doesn't matter since songs are placed in different sides...but I wonder.

It is all down to opinion and popularity. For example if there are 100 people who like rock and 1000 people who like Country voting and an average country song by country standards is against a really good rock song by rock standards which one will win? How much does the popularity of the genre influence the final decision.

Actually Ourstage has proven that wrong Jim. I doubt there are more World Music fans out there than the other popular genres, yet that is what she won with this time. Our own awards seem to bear that out. For album of the year, we've had a Country Album, a Pop/Rock album, a Contemporary Christian album, a hard core Industrial album and a multi lingual Singer Songwriter album all win. That's pretty diverse. People really will vote for the best music, unless they're ignorant and intentionally unreasonable. Most folks can tell the difference between a bad song in their own favorite genre and a really good one in their least favorite. So unless they are being dishonest in their judging, they'll normally get it right far more often than wrong.

Brian

That is nice to hear Brian. I hate it when people vote for genre or other factors rather than song quality. I know of sites and other type of comps where this is clearly the case.

Brian & Big Jim,
I think I agree with your insights when voting strictly based on a "Song A vs. Song B" basis. For example in the finals I might tend to vote for a Jazz instrumental as compared to a Hard core Rap or Alt. Rock song just because I "grew up" with jazz, but that doesn't mean anything is technically wrong with the competeting song, it just comes down to my personal taste and preference.

Generally by the time we're in the finals (at end of each month) I'm voting for the song(s) that I would actually want to buy, or maybe hear at a live event. It comes down to my personal experience with the song and the fact that I really liked a great melody, hook or vocal performance, etc.

If it moves and inspires me it's a great song in my book... even if it's NOT the most commercially popular genre.

Michael

Good point I think personal bias will always be there it is only natural.
At the moment there are over 1200 songs in the APRIL rock section impossible to listen to them all but I have had the same songs come up several times against other songs. I did check their position and they are all over the place. It would make more sense to ensure that ALL different songs were judged randomly until you have heard them all. What happens to the songs you have not heard.... and do all the songs get judged... are some left on the shelf virtually unlistened to. How many people on average judge and for how many rounds? The answer to these questions must relate to how fair the comp is.

I believe their system will sometimes repeat songs so that all of them DO get listened to by an equal number of people... eventually every song has to be matched up with every other song, so it's no surprise that they repeat even if it was random. I screened an entire category last month and eventually got to every song being compared to every other. But often the sames ones came up early. But I didn't have the same 2 songs head to head more than once.

Brian

Also, what one person sees may be misleading. Perhaps you saw the same song five times, and some none. But in the general pool of judging, they may all get their plays...just with different viewers.

I had a real bummer of a night last night and was unable to sleep. So, I judged songs over at OurStage....Jazz and Latin channels. I judged for over 4 hours. I have a Latin song, "Hot Day In Havana", at number 22...woooHooo!!!

But, I casually charted the songs I judged, over 200 judges. Of the 200+ that I judged, they all came up a similar number of times. It appears to be random but balanced. One of the other judges that I briefly "chatted" with got the same pairings that I did. If you judge long enough, over the collective judging period, it appears to me you will eventually hear all the songs in that channel (genre) an equall number of times. I cannot state that as a fact; but that is the impression I get.

The most difficult thing for me is to remember that with each paring, I am judging those two songs against one another...not against all the other songs. Thus, you must try to ignore your biases, assuming you have any, about the particular song you are listening to as it compares to the collective entries.

I enjoyed the process a lot. I heard a lot of really good music and some not quite so good music. And one thing I also find interesting is that after you have judged a paired competition, they tell you how your decision compared to everyone else who has judged that same pairing. I recommend everyone try it at least a couple of times.

Al

In the final rounds, the number of possible battles is equal to the number of songs in the round multiplied by that number minus one, divided by two. So in the final round in March, there were 37 songs. You could judge a total of 666 rounds ((37 * 36)/2). Every song gets paired up against every other song, but cannot compete against itself. It's almost definitely like this for normal rounds as well. They probably don't list the max combos because no one could humanly judge that many rounds

Very cool Andrew!
So it comes down to basic mathematics based on possible combinations, I think your formula makes sense!
Let's see... if there would be only 10 songs (for example) in the finals, that would be 45 (10 * 9 = 90 divided by 2 = 45)

The idea is that every song goes up against every other song available in the same "pool" of songs. Very cool system and amazing that few (if any) sites have tried to implement this approach before. I understand OurStage is filing for a patent on this whole voting process.

Michael

Actually it seems to me that it said 741 possible judging rounds. (I know for sure it was over 700). Actually.. I've done an entire round early too to test it out. But then I am a freak of nature. I wanted to test how it all worked and took notes on each song so that once I'd heard them all, I could refer to the notes to keep them all straight. In that respect, I used part of our technique when we screen the JPF awards, only we're often using notes from multiple judges as well as our own.

I spoke at length with Daniel last night and he said he'll drop by here soon to answer questions. We also discussed some of the cool performance opportunities like Bonaroo and the Newport Folk Festival.

Brian

I'm increasingly impressed with OurStage and also with their related events, sponsors (and partners ). I love the addition of the John Lennon Educational Tourbus and Songwriting Contest as another possible prize...
imagine ( ) recording in that bus. Very cool. Got a feeling this thing is going to get Huge...

You're right, it did say 741 for the finals, but several people I know attempted to judge all the rounds earlier in the day and were stopped somewhere between 600 and 700. 741 would have been the number if there were 38 songs, so I suspect that a song got removed but the total battle count was not 'refreshed'. Towards the end of the day the number was finally synchronized properly. I ended up voting in all 666 rounds myself.

I have just spent a mammoth session judging. I looked at the various categories and it seems there are huge discrepancies in the totals in each category. Some only have a couple of hundred or so entries whilst others have over 1300. Is this fair? I have an entry in rock and have judged over 400 battles IMHO fairly as I wanted to see the competition. I take into consideration a variety of things including originality, quality of musicianship and recording quality. I try to put my own preferences to one side as there are distinct styles within the genre and one man's meat is anothers poison. I try to rate two songs side by side without being influenced by sub genre styles. Currently my song is lying at the bottom of the pile near the 1300 mark with only a dozen or so songs rated worse. This is embarrassing and frustrating and has made me quite angry as I would honestly rate this song on what I have heard so far from the competition as at least in the top 50% of the several hundred songs I have heard. I am sometimes surprised by the amount of people who apparently vote differently. On several occasions I have seen very very poor pieces in every way against relatively good pieces and most people disagreed with my preferance. There is no accounting for taste. I feel for a few of the guys rated worse than ours whose stuff is not all that bad because some of the real rubbish is holding its own mid table several hundred places above us. I hope that by the end of the month things get sorted out.

It's totally fair actually. It represents which genres are more popular and just as in real life, those categories are going to be more competitive. Rock music also gets a lot of the commercial business out there for music and concert sales, so it attracts more people in the first place to do it. If you want less competition, make music in a less popular genre. If it were me, I'd test my abilities in some of the other genres just to see how it would go.

I think the judging is pretty fair, even though I often vote differently than the majority. Keep in mind if most people vote a tie, and you vote one over the other, it's possible for you to be in the minority even though the song you picked may be ahead of the other. (i.e. one song could have 20%, the other 35% and a tie could get the other 45% of the vote. So your vote for the 35% song may look like a minority when it's really not. I can see how a few songs might get more positive attention because they have recruited a bunch of people to vote for them (like JPF for that matter) but I think you should get a pretty fair idea of where people rank your music in more general terms as the bottom third, middle third or top third. If you're in the top third, then you know your materially is appealing to the mainstream. If not, then you have work to do if you want to reach that level. I can't imagine a more fair tool to gauge where your music is. Not friends or foes opinions, but a lot of people who don't know you and have no agenda for or against you. It can't get much more fair than that.

You also can't get too worked up early or even in the middle of things. The month has just gotten going. Give it a chance.. by the end of the month you should have a fair unbiased assessment on where your music ranks against that collection of music.

Brian

Thanks Brian you are probably right. Too early to get excited. But it sucks when you see kids grunting to sci fi fx 300 places higher.

I just judged 30 battles in the folk genre. Was an interesting experience....

I'd place maybe 20% of what I heard in the folk category. I wonder if people enter there because its smaller, not because the song is a fit?

There were some instances where (all my opinion, naturally) a well written folk song came up against a nicely written pop or rock song. In these cases, the latter seemed to win with the large majority of voters. I don't think they were better (or necessarily worse) - it's just that with folk you have fewer weapons to knock people out with.

There are some parallels between this kind of judging and competition photography. There, judges have about 10 seconds to score an image, before going on to the next one.

We found that we had to judge black and white before color, because when they were mixed together, color images almost always scored higher. Not because they were better - but simply because of a physiological response to seeing an additional visual component. This is not a factor when time is taken to contemplate a piece - but most definitely is when you have only a few seconds.

Bottom line - I think it's more critical for some genres than others that the entries fit the genre. They have to be on the same sonic playing field.

Yeah, I know there is a "doesn't fit category button". I didn't spot it until I was halfway into my session and didn't think it was fair to start using it at that point.....

Guess this might read like I'm grumpy - actually I enjoyed it and plan to do more. No system will be perfect - in fact no system CAN be perfect. But this seems to work far better than most.

Scott

I'm hesitant to use the "doesn't fit category button"...as a competitor I sort of don't want to show a sour grapes attitude.

Big Jim, since I entered our song, I can see some stats about it. Consider that it has only had 26 plays so far...and at this point in time, the rock category has 1345 entries. More time will definitely change some things. But, just to annoy you, I will say that my other rock song, "Solve My Problem" has had 20 plays and is currently at #287. This proves that Americans are better lyricists than Scots. (runs and hides, laughing)

Seriously though, another thing "Solve My Problem" has in its favor is that it gets immediately to the point...you have 15 seconds to hook them, and this song starts with a bang. The rest might be irrelevant for many listeners...they'll just click through and jump to the next one.

The folk category currently has 287 entries. I knew that, so I played the odds and entered "The Graveyard of Songs"...it has had 94 plays and is currently at #2. Will it last all month? I don't know...but the smaller number of entries equals more plays and more votes...and also, yes, better odds of doing well.

But all in all I agree with Brian...this is as fair as online judging is likely to get. A bunch of people give it a listen and say yea or nay. This is why radio looks the way it does...because most people really do prefer what we hear on the radio.

So how do you find stats on how many plays etc. Cause I wanna find out how the two guys growling to sc fi noises is 300 places in front. By the way I've said it before You can run but you cannot hide.

In Response to Al David's = # of times comment:

Yes. This engine is really sharp when it comes to distributing content fairly. Even so, I would opt to for early entry into a channel contest. Give the fans as much time as possible to listen and weigh in.

In response to Big Jim's post about stats:

Be on the lookout for A LOT of changes in the coming weeks. Including a dashboard that will give artists the most important stats at a glance. And we have some really big stuff in the works that is going to make OurStage even bigger. YIKES!!

Hi Mark,

I really liked your track. But the competition is a long one and anything can happen. Keep telling everyone you know to vote in Folk. I love the channel (thanks to Brian, we created it!)

To Scott's point about Folk being "On Topic" here's the rub. Folk should echo Dylan, and Mitchell, and Baez at a minimum. We put some samples of what you should expect in our FAQ. I'd like to give this channel some breathing room to grow. Each month we're going to be more and more strict about channel entrees being on topic per our FAQ. But it's an evolving process. We're not perfect yet by any stretch, but we're certainly getting better and better by being broader. Folks need homes for their tracks. I want to focus on that first. That said, please FLAG the off topic stuff and let us listen. We have ears dedicated to that!

Can someone please teach me how to get that blue box response effect in my replies so I can respond to each question specifically? Thanks for the guidance. Apologies in advance for my blatant Webnorance.

Hi Danny:

At the bottom of the post you want to respond to will be a series of boxes. Click on the one that says "quote". A new window will open and you can type your response below the stuff within the quote tags. Hit submit and the post will show up with the previous poster's quote in a blue box and your response below it.

Thanks for your response by the way. Like Mark, I might be uneasy in busting someone on their genre pick. But I suspect I could probably do it for the most blatant cases.

Scott

One can even just have a sentence or two or whatever be in the box for the reply by just keeping both the (quote) part of anybody's reply between the sentence or so you want to reply about. That way, you won't have to have all of the text in there,,,but only that of what you are really responding to.

John

Like this?

Danny,
Ok, we're almost there!
Here's some tips:
1. Start with the Quote button and then after the page (text edit box) opens, scroll down to see everything initially on the page.
2. Remove (or delete) anything you don't need.
3. Don't remove the important quote you want to keep. It starts with a quote code surrounded by bracks "[quote]" and ends with quote code like this "/quote" again surrounded by the open and close bracket.
4. Start typing your own text usually just below the quoted text.
5. Click the "Preview Post" button to check what your post will look like.
6. When satisfied, simply click the "Submit" button.

If there is still a problem, you can go back to "Edit" your post and tidy things up. For example, if there is more than one Quote, or like a Quote within a Quote, then you can simply go back and delete the un-needed quote.

Michael

Another OurStage question:

Once you post a song, can't you remove it? I don't see that option. (I can understand why updating it in the course of a competition would not be an option--although I would like to do that right now with the poorly mixed version of "Just Another Day".) Could just be my failure to see, of course.

I have a song that was in a previous competition, and I'd prefer to take it down...but as far as I can tell, it stays there for good.

Is this true?

Mark,

I had that same situation a couple of months ago when I put a couple of "junk" songs just to see how it works. They don't allow you to delete or replace a song once it is up there (they have to keep certain records for keeping track of songs entered). I ended up sending them an email asking them to remove those test files and they did (heck, those test files are doing better than my "real" ones now).

If you ask, they might do it. If they don't, just withdraw it from the competition and enter a new version with a slightly different name (Song Name #2 ?). I guess you can do that, but I don't really know. Better to send an email and ask.

Kevin

I have not put anything there yet.
It seems no one checks to see if the songs are in the right Genre.
Folk against rock, country against blues,
How is that a fair thing. Of course I suppose a good song is a good song but if they are going to have genres they should police it or do away with genres and just go head to head.

Another thing I see Chris Daughtry is ranked lower than Mark and Big Jim.
I wondered if "Daughtry" was the American idol Daughtry so I searched it and it looks like a couple of people have entered songs under his name. How does that work. It does not appear to even be Daughtry that is entering it. It looks like fans.
Is that what is happening or an I reading it wrong.

In any case Big Jim you are ahead of him on two songs.

You can't stop some idiot from uploading whatever they want. All you can do is remove it when it's found. Sames goes for out of genre music. If you find it, report it. If they don't remove it, it's possible that you simply have a different definition of what qualifies in your mind than they do. I've found them to be very responsive.

Brian

I agree Brian
It seems to be a very well run site.

The one Genre that always confuses me is Singer/songwriter.

I took that to mean a simple guitar/vocal or piano/vocal
or two guitars/vocal or Piano guitar/vocal at most. Where a songwriter is showcasing the song/lyrics not production. Seems like no one has a genre like that.
There are fully produced full band songs in there.

I guess it would be asking for too much to have a genre like that.

Here's what the OurStage FAQ says about Singer/Songwriter"



Kevin

Well Kevin unless my ears are really screwed up big time that eliminates about 80 percent of the songs in the category.
That's why I usually don't even bother with these things.

You put up a song that follows those guidelines and get paired against a song with a full band production. Who will win?

Hey Bill,

It seems like the "Folk" or "Acoustic" categories are more geared toward the guitars & vocals stuff.
But I agree that it seems weird that there's hip hop and metal bands in the Singer/Songwriter category. Personally, I'm not hesitant to use the "wrong category" flag because I think it'll make it a better website.

Hi Juliana
Welcome to JPF
I liked your song in the folk Festival category. It deserves to be where it is.

I don't mean to sound like I won't put any of my songs there. I will.
I like the idea of being able to flag a song as wrong category.

I am just a cynical old fart that doesn't trust anyone, LOL.

Our definition of Singer-Songwriter is signature songs written and sung by the same solo artist. Production level doesn't matter. We regularly have Solo Guitar/Piano and Vocal songs compete alongside with full productions and both have done well. John Mayer and Dave Matthews are full production, so their description certainly includes full production. Not sure what the 80% is that doesn't fit. If you're just acoustic guitar and vocal, you should definitely enter the acoustic and/or folk channel as Juliana suggested.

Brian

Why is it so difficult to get a category for single guitar or single piano and vocal

The acoustic channel has full band songs as well.

I cannot compete with those folks so I don't even bother anymore.

Why not listen to winners from previous months and see if anyone was similar to you? I'm pretty sure I heard some solo guitar + voice or solo piano + voice last month in the finals..

Give me James Taylor on an acoustic guitar and vocal and he'll have no problem competing with any full production in any number of genres. For that matter, give me JPF member Bob Malone on piano and vocal and he'll have no problem competing with full production. Production isn't an issue if you have a good song and good performance. Many songs are better on just a guitar and vocal. Singer Songwriter, Folk or Acoustic would all fit what you do Bill. Seth Horan has 2 songs near the top in the Newport channel and he's competing with full productions all over the place. He's playing bass and singing on one and bass and singing on the other with a little acoustic guitar added I think on a part of it. I think you're focused on the wrong thing. A great song and a good performance of it. That's what matters.

Brian

I agree. If we'd never heard "Blackbird" before and that one came up, I think we'd all be very enthusiastic about that dude with the guitar on that fantastic new song.

Thanks Danny, sorry I missed your reply.

Looks like the Singer/Songwriter Male & Female categories are still unisex...? In the Male category at least there are still just as many female artists.

Yeah.. there's a lot of stuff mixed up and there's also a lot of artists with 2 or more songs in a channel still.. hopefully those are being fixed?

Brian

Yes, it will probably take a week or two for things to settle in. The OurStage admin will be depending on the fans to report off-topic material, so hopefully the fans will be "good sports" about it.

Michael

They are working on getting all the out of genre stuff fix as well as folks with more than 1 song in a category and the males out of Female Singer Songwriter. I spoke at length late last night with Daniel.

Brian

I figured it was a matter of inundation. That place is catching fire...

Hey Danny, got any jobs available?? My wife is out of work! Restaurants are boring me!

Brian & Mark,
Thanks & cool!

Michael

I wonder how this might affect the votes for the two singer/songwriter categories...there are a little over 200 entries in the female section, and 1100 in the male...but there are still a good percentage of females yet to be transferred. I can't wrap my mind around how it works...if you transfer a song today after a week of having been voted against songs in a different category...how does that work? Or do all votes get canceled and it starts from scratch again?

Well.. if people entered their song in such a clearly wrong channel, I think they should start at zero. I don't know how they are handling it, but I can't feel sorry for female artists who don't know they are females and vice versa (there are some males in the female category as well).

Brian

Well what happened to most of us is that we entered our May songs at the end of April, so those songs were locked and loaded for Day One of May. But there was only one category for us to enter at the time, even the night before May 1st. It looks like they decided to use the entire category for Male, and then moved a lot of the Females into a new category. The women still left over in the Male side were told everything was going to be moved by May 2 if they didn't do it themselves. So they probably wonder if withdrawing and re-categorizing on their own will hurt their "score" somehow...returning them to zero, whereas maybe some of their judging points will remain if they wait until OurStage does it.

Meanwhile, males currently gain and lose points in competitions against females...but the results of the vote will probably remain after the songs are removed...I think. ??

Kind of a cluster at the moment. But a ton of voting will cure all that by month's end.

Daniel told me they were tackling that on Monday when we spoke. I am a bit surprised it's not fixed already. But I know he's working day and night. (Half the time we talk in the morning and then again late at night an both of us are still working.. the only difference is he goes to bed and I still keep working! = ) )

Brian

The site is so full of action and color that we can easily forget there are only a few people behind the scenes doing everything...and not sleeping much. Hats off to Danny.

Okay, hats off to you too, Brian.

EDIT: Wait, that wouldn't look right...better keep your hat on.

Remember Brian, rest is very important, your body needs time to recuperate, especially as you get older.

Hi all:

Well here's the "dealio". Yes, we changed the channel rules for May. Now limiting to 1 song per artist per channel. Tens of thousands of items had to be reviewed (Brian I know that's light for you!). We ran the scripts, moved stuff around, and we're now cleaning up the last remnants of the Singer Songwriter channel to ensure males are with males and females are with females. All said, there was a LOT of logic in the scripting process to:

1. Pick which song we'd leave and which we'd remove
2. Move the thousands of items we reclassified as better fit for our newer channels
3. Email everyone with what changes were made to their media
4. Log it all
5. Scramble a bit when we had an issue with the singer songwriter channel moves (it was removing even if artists only had 1 cut in the channel)

So that's the story. Because we did all on a "live site" any misstep was highly visible. The good news is that by mid-day all should be back to normal, you can continue doing what you're doing. Feel free to reach out to me via my profile:

http://www.ourstage.com/fanclub/danielpalmer

Thanks JPF for all you do.

-Daniel

Thanks Danny...any minor change on a live site is like moving a mountain.

Get some sleep!

Unfortunately, there was a pretty major bug that you won't be able to recover from for this month. The OurStage code was not properly registering withdrawn items as actually withdrawn, so even if people only had one ACTUAL song in the contest, if they had initially entered more (before the month even started), they were registered as still having those songs entered. Sure, we can re-enter our songs, but we've lost our rankings.

Some friendly advice... and believe me, I know how hard it is to run a large site... run a LOCAL copy of the OurStage site somewhere. Test out any sweeping changes offline first, so you can catch bugs before doing it a live situation. Alternatively, keep backups of the site at regularly intervals, so that if some big mistake happens (like it did yesterday), you can restore to the last good version of the site, fix the bum code, and re-run the change.

You guys are doing a great job overall, and the system has been remarkably bug-free, from my observation. Just trying to help.

Hi Andrew,

I can tell you that we had one issue with singer-songwriter, which we caught and corrected, preserving the battles/ranks for the artists we incorrectly pulled. And that for ever inquiry we've had as a result of these changes we have been able to provide answers to the artists that support our advertised rule changes:

1. One song per channel

2. If you have two, we said that we'd keep the one that was the higher ranking song from the previous month

We also covered the edge cases and tested it in our test environment before running the script. If you have specific examples where we didn't live up to our promise, aside from the bug we know about and corrected, we'll be more than happy to investigate.

Thanks!
Daniel

It's good that you tested it offline first - I'm not sure why the bugs appeared in the live version, then...

This problem occurred with me, first of all. I had one song in Techno this month, Mindbender. It was at 38. Here's the sequence of events:

1. In April, I entered two songs in Techno for the month of May. These songs were "Bazaar" and "Throwdown".

2. When I heard the announcement, in April, that only one song would be allowed, I withdrew one of the songs and ended up with only one, "Throwdown", which was entered in Techno. I entered "Mindbender" into Electronic.

3. A few days into May, "Mindbender" was removed from Electronic for being off-topic, so I withdrew Throwdown from Techno, and entered Mindbender into Techno instead. Total songs in Techno: 1 (Mindbender.) Total songs in Electronic: 1 (Throwdown.)

4. I get an email saying I had THREE songs in Techno: "Bazaar" (one of the ones I entered for the May contest during April, which I withdrew before May started), "Mindbender", and "Throwdown". The system removed "Mindbender", thus removing my only Techno contest track and forcing me to lose my ranking.

The exact same thing happened to my friend and last month's grand prize winner sgx. Except he only had one song in the entire CONTEST! His was "Crowdpleaser (Drop the Mic Mix)" in Electronic, and he was in the top 20 - even higher than me. He got the same error message, that he had multiple songs entered when he didn't (he withdrew any extras before the month started) and "Crowdpleaser" was removed.

The same thing ALSO happened to Jillian Goldin! Her song "Red July", her only entry in Pop, was removed because the system said she had multiple songs there when she didn't. She had previously withdrawn songs from the category, but was definitely only competing with the one song by the time May started.

All of us re-entered our songs, but again, we all lost ranking that has not been restored. I sent a ticket in a minute after I figured out what happened and I'm pretty sure the others did too.

Got it. Thanks for all the examples. We will evaluate. Until I know otherwise, I'll remain optimistic that all has a valid explanation. So allow me a "half full" moment until I can prove for myself that the glass was actually "half empty".

Hello Danny,
Did you see my latest post (on the General forum, main OurStage topic)about this issue?
Here's a copy of it:

---
Why does OurStage even allow artists who have entered songs into contests, to vote on themslves? I thought that the cardinal contest rule was that artists and songwriters can NOT vote for themselves and best NOT AT ALL in the channels they have entered songs into.

This month I have four songs in four different channels, so if I want to vote, I could vote in all the other (approx.) 30 channels, but maybe NOT in the ones I entered. It would be a very simple thing for the software program to monitor.

Quit simply, if they know you entered into Folk for month of May, you can't vote anything in that channel, period. Because if you could vote in that channel, even if your song doesn't appear because it's blocked out, you could still vote artifically low against all your competitors, see?

So I think we should bring this point up to Brian, Daniel and the OurStage management team to make this basic point very clear:
There's NO need for OurStage artists & bands to be allowed to vote in any channel for which they have entered a song for any given contest month. Note: they should also monitor additional account profiles that artists & bands can set up using other email addresses, etc.

Before a song is entered or after it has been withdrawn, it's Ok to vote/judge in that channel again. I know JPF follows this same high standard, and if they didn't, their song awards would be compromised and would not be nearly as valuable or meaningful.
---

Please let me know if this makes any sense to you that perhaps it would be a better policy to BLOCK artists and bands from voting in the same channel that they have entered their songs into. In other words, let the FANS decide, but NOT the artists.

Best regards,
Michael

I am no longer optimistic. If any JPF member was affected by the May rules change reach out to me via my profile and I'll explain.

It's an interesting idea. We're reaching out the channel contestants over the coming days to inspire them to action. Look for my email and tell me what you think. Thanks Michael!

I posted a response to this on the other board. (This is exactly WHY I didnt' want to keep adding new posts to this discussion Michael B.. it gets confusing for everyone).

Brian

Brian,
Please help me understand what you're saying.
Here's the facts which we can both easily confirm:

On February 05, 2008 (09:02 AM) I started a topic on the Mentor Forum titled: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!)

On April 13, 2008 (05:03 PM) you started a new topic on the General Message Forum titled: So Where Does Your Song Rank On OurStage

My topic was only to share my personal feedback about my experience on OurStage (nothing to do with song rankings) and your topic, which started 9 weeks later, was asking folks about their song rankings on OurStage.

Please explain what the problem is. Is it that my topic started 9 weeks before yours in a different forum with a completely different title and purpose?

By the way, I also work hard to keep "on topic" with all the posts I start, so if the topic drifted somewhat, please check and see who is posting "off topic". I sure hope it wasn't me!

Michael

Michael,

It wasn't the first two on 2 separate boards that was confusing.. it's when you added a third. Even Daniel is having trouble keeping up with where the different posts were. The post I made on the General board was intended as a place for folks to talk about their songs that were posted on Ourstage and how they were doing. You added a second to discuss basically the same thing on the same board. With 3 going, it's hard for folks to find which post included which topic. Why that is confusing to you is unknown to me. I mentioned it right after you started the third topic, but you don't even mention it here. And for the record, there was a fourth topic that I started before your first one, but I removed it to avoid confusion. It was a global topic at the top of every message board. Then I changed it to the newer discussion on just the general board.

Most people aren't checking all 3 posts like you or I might be doing. They're lucky if they see 1. If Daniel is answering questions on one of them, most folks aren't seeing his answers.

Brian

Brian,
Ok, I see what you mean... thanks for explaining!
So I started only two "OurStage" related topics:

1. Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!)
Note: This one is on the Mentor Forum with 207 replies so far.

2. OurStage Contest Entries - MAY 2008
Note: This one is on the General Messages Forum and contains no discussion about Rank or Feedback. It's only about May (Song) Contest Entries. Currently it lists 18 artists with a total of about 100 songs entered ony for the May contest.

Maybe I/we can edit, re-title or DELETE one of these? For example, if you would like to move all the posts from my first topic (Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) to your main OurStage topic, that would be fine with me! Afterwards we can simply delete the whole topic or leave a note that it has been moved to your topic on the General Messages Forum.

Then it might make sense for you to rename your topic to something like: "OurStage - Official Feedback Topic". From then on all "official" OurStage feedback discussion would be done on that topic which you can continue to manage and moderate, etc.

Again, that'd be cool with me, but I suggest that at least one seperate topic could also be run which focuses only on current Contest Entries (e.g. May, June, July, etc.), and after the end of each contest folks could post their final song rankings. We could also create a master rankings list showing all songs from 1st place on down in order of the month's final contest ranking.

Suggested format could be:
Rank, song name, channel, artist/songwriter name.

We have some great information and participation, and it only needs to organize / re-organized to make it easy to find. Maybe you could also "Pin" it at the top of the General Messages forum to make it even easier for most folks to find.

Michael

Hey Danny, or some other knowledgeable person.....

I have 2 different songs in the top 10 ( well, so far anyway ) in 2 different channels, Electronic and Instrumental, and am not sure how it progresses from there.....

The rules state..

"At the end of each month, the top 20 and the top 10 in each channel go head-to-head in a special judging channel to determine the winner of that channel, and then a site-wide judging contest to determine our Grand Prize winner. "

So top 20 and/or top 10 go to which places respectively ? It's a little confusing. Could you please clarify ?

Thanks, cheers, niteshift

In the quarterfinals, the top 20 songs from each channel compete against each other within their respective categories. So, in the quarterfinals, each channel will have 20 songs left.

In the semifinals, the top 10 songs from each channel (as determined in the quarterfinals) compete against each other, again in their respective categories.

In the finals, the #1 song selected in each category (as determined in the semifinals) compete with each other for the grand prize.

Does this make sense?

Yes, I think it does make sense Andrew. But over what time frame ? I see the quarters start on Sun 25th.

Is this all in the space of a week, with the winner determined in the follwing 6 days ? In other words, 2 days per round ?

cheers, niteshift

Yes; as you can see on the main page, the quarterfinals last four days, the semifinals are two, and the finals are a mere 24 hours. The last day is definitely crazy... having been in the finals twice I can say that emphatically!

Got it ! Yep, that must be a crazy 24 hrs with 5 grand on the line. I bet those songs are bouncing around postion wise, like a manic puppet on a string. Thanks Andrew.

cheers, niteshift

Hi Danny. Could you clarify this one for us? I am trying to find a way to hide some old uploads, since I decided to do shorter edits for a couple of songs. I searched long and hard on the Upload page for a "hide" button, but can't find it! A more detailed description, or perhaps screenshots, would be enormously helpful.

Danny,
Ditto for me with not being able to find a "Hide" check box. Is it only for songs that have been entered and then later withdrawn from a contest? It would be nice to be able to Hide any song that is not currently entered into a contest.

Thanks!
Michael

My sons song from his band, Branded has a song being judged on OurStage right now in the country category. Its called...Gonna Go Get Lost and its from their FIFTY TURNS cd. Out of 421 entries in that category, they are 120....here is their band link.

http://www.myspace.com/brandedband

If you get a chance could you give a listen?

Thanks alot,

Jan

Check out Rayshun LaMarr on outstage he is being judged in three catergories.

1. R&B he is 87
2. Pop he is 84
3. Songwriter he is 119

You can also hear him at

www.myspace.com/rayshunonrad
www.radrecordsdc.com

or by just googling his name he is on several website he and abroad.

Look forward to some support. Let's keep the music alive

William

Forgive me if this has been covered here before, I just glanced through and didn't notice.

If someone wants to enter a cover song in the "cover band" section at OurStage, how do they deal with the copyright of the song?

Mike

Mike,
I would think it's similar to playing a cover song at any live venue. The venue (whether online or offline) takes care of the ASCAP/BMI performance license, so I bet OurStage has this cost included in their marketing budget to host virtually unlimited cover songs.

I've looked "high & low" and have not seen any special instructions about uploading cover songs. Besides, how could they take the time to check everyone's uploads and contest entries? It would be very time consuming not to mention the added liability for OurStage to host such songs if they didn't have everything cleared ahead of time with the big Performance Rights Organizations.

If OurStage doesn't have a blanket performance license secured yet with all the big PROs, you can bet they'll come a knocking at their door before too long.

Same goes for SoundClick. They also support a "Cover songs" category for all their genres. For example, Country has a Cover Songs channel:
http://www.soundclick.com/genres/charts.cfm?Genre=Country&SubgenreID=200
You'll notice that all of their Genres support "Cover Songs" as a sub-genre alternative.

Michael

Thanks, Michael

Hmmmm that's interesting.
I can understand a venue handling the license for a "Performance" of a cover. But this is a recording. Isn't that a different thing?
I think Soundclick has some specific rules about it.

Bill,
Many artists now bring their own pre-recorded backing tracks to sing and/or play along with in their performances. Such tracks are usually recorded on CD's or could be WAV or MP3 files on their laptop computers, etc. The audio recordings can embody not the instruments and also various voices such as backup and harmonies, etc.

My educated guess is that the PROs now support online venue perfomance licensing. I bet Brian can find out right quick by calling his contact at BMI and also checking with Danny, the OurStage field rep here on JPF.

No need for us to speculate when the answers are probably right at our "finger tips" when both BMI and OurStage are JPF community partners and sponsors. I'm sure Brian can ask them!

Michael

Hi Michael. I can only relate my personal experience. For years I performed my songs at many venues using a CD with music tracks. I kept a log of my performances at sonicbids.com. I applied for and received a grant from ASCAP for these performances. I think I received these on a quarterly basis. However, I only had to apply once per year. I suppose one could argue their case with a PRO if they have evidence - as you do - if one is getting thousands of plays online. However I think this is handled by Sound Exchange.

Summeoyo,
Thanks for your input! Regardless, I was hoping maybe Brian could ask his best contact at OurStage about their cover song policy. They've probably got something in place with the PROs simply because the underlying song (copyright owner) still needs to be paid a performance royalty regardless of who created or owns the cover recording. For example, the 1st place winner in May was "Maybe I'm Amazed (McCartney cover)".
http://www.ourstage.com/charts/music/100-covers

So one of the PROs must collect the performance royalty for this famous Paul McCartney song and the band that covered it can possibly also collect something later from SoundExchange as well, because they own the recording that is being performed on the OurStage venue.

Either way, I don't think the artists or bands need to pay anything unless they will sell the cover song(s) in form of downloads or physical CDs. In such case they will need to purchase a mechanical license for any cover songs they will be selling.

Michael

Michael,

But what about the copyright? As I understood it, and I may be wrong (not a lawyer), it was a violation of copyright to simply copy someone's work without permission.

By the way, congrats on coming in 2nd last month. Beautiful song.

Thanks,
Mike

Thanks Mike!
Good question about the copyright. Generally, the most common thing is to pull a mechanical license. This can be easily done on the Harry Fox Agency (HFA) which has special pricing now for online usage of copyrighted songs. See this page about Digital Licensing:
http://www.harryfox.com/public/infoFAQDigitalLicensing.jsp
It says:
The HFA website provides answers to commonly asked questions about mechanical licensing and other related inquiries.

Also see this page:
http://www.harryfox.com/public/songfile.jsp
It says:
New! Songfile minimum lowered to just 25 copies, and electronic check payment option added!

I have already purchased mechanical licenses for some of my cover recordings, but mostly for my sound recording licensing sales purposes. The OurStage streaming application (venue) might be handled differently, so I'm researching this now to learn more clearly which HFA license type (if any) would best apply.

For example, on OurStage audiences can stream songs but can't buy them for downloading if the artists have the optional download sales feature disabled. So the application would be only for preview and contest streaming. I would think that OurStage would need to pay performance fees via a blanket license from one or more of the PROs. Makes sense, right?

If you have any insights on this, please share so we can discuss and learn more.

Thanks,
Michael

Thanks Michael,

I've been perusing the Harry Fox site for info on free streaming audio, such as on OurStage, and it said I need to fill out the New Media Licensing Application. On that application, it looks like every category leads to a license for paid download or paid streaming. I'm looking to add a few covers to the EPK at OurStage. They would be free streaming audio with no downloads. I think I've read everything at Harry Fox so far, I'll have a cup of coffee and try again, maybe the words will look different

Thanks again for your good info.

Mike

Mike,
Ok, good deal!
Matter of fact, I just sent the HFA a similar request for information which I worded like this:
-------

Hello,
Please provide a quote and terms for the following type of online digital song license:

1. Song will be used by artist or band in "Cover bands" channel at OurStage.com
Please click this link to see examples:
http://www.ourstage.com/music/channel/100-covers

2. Song will not be sold for digital downloads.

3. Song will not be manufactured or sold on physical CD.

4. Song will only be streamed for FREE online previews and contest usage.

5. Song is not in public domain, so it probably needs some kind of license for performance at online venues such as on OurStage.com

Question:
Is it possible that the OurStage.com online venue will need to pay for online performance royalties from one of the Performance societies such as ASCAP, BMI or SESAC?

Thank you for providing this information and licensing cost if it applies to the artists or bands that are performing their various cover song on these kinds of online web based venues. If you need any more information, please let me know.

Best regards,
Michael Borges
-------

Then I also sent an e-mail directly to OurStage (community & tech support) people with a similar question about artists posting songs on their "Cover Bands" channel. I asked them if they already have blanket Performance License agreements with the U.S. PROs such as ASCAP, BMI and SESAC. I also asked them what kind of cover song (mechanical) license artists will need to have their songs performed via online contest streaming and for general previewing, but not for downloading or for download sales.

Let's see who replies first and what they say.
Then we'll hear it from the "horses mouth"!

Cheers and enjoy your cup of coffee!
Michael
P.S. What part of "Free" don't they understand?!

So here's the reply I recived today from the HFA, though nothing yet from our friends at OurStage.

----
Dear Michael,

The nature of your request requires a synchronization license, an authorization to use recorded music in combination with visual images such as film, television, video, web sites, video games and the like.

HFA ceased providing synchronization license services in 2002. However, you may secure synchronization rights by contacting the publisher directly. You can use the following databases to locate publisher contact information:

http://www.ascap.com
http://www.bmi.com
http://www.sesac.com
http://www.copyright.gov

If you have any further questions, please contact Publisher Services at 212-834-0100.

Best Regards,
Publisher Services
The Harry Fox Agency

*Please note our new address
601 W. 26th Street, 5th Fl
New York, NY 10001
Phone: (212) 834-0100 | Fax: (646) 487-6779
----

Ok, I think that may be true IF I was making a video to post on OurStage, but they seem to have completely ignored my question about what kind of license to get for streaming a cover song, which is closer to a digital/mechanical license then to a Synch license. In short, I should have added:
Song will not be used in video.

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting to hear back from the folks at OurStage.

Michael,

It sounds as if they didn't know what your were talking about. I don't feel so bad now, since after reading everything I could find on the Harry Fox website about digital licensing, I could never figure out anything that fit the OurStage case. Slowly the music industry gets dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

Hi Michael, the way I'm reading it, you need a mechanical license just to record a cover, doesn't matter if your gonna sell it on hard copies or downloads.

"Do I need a mechanical license?

If you are manufacturing and distributing copies of a song which you did not write, and you have not already reached an agreement with the song's publisher, you need to obtain a mechanical license. This is required under U.S. Copyright Law, regardless of whether or not you are selling the copies that you made."

(see the last line, what ya think?)

Louis,
Right, I understand, but in my case, as with many "cover" song artists on OurStage, I wouldn't be producing the song on a CD for sales, but only placing in the contest for free public performance (think radio) with no sales in mind.

The "crux" of the problem is that the music industry needs a new type of online (digital) performance license. This is very similar to a broadcast license in which the broadcasters pay blanket license fees (NOT mechanicals) to pay the royalties which will be collected by the PROs on behalf of the artists and publishers.

A mechanical license only covers a song which will be manufactured & sold on a record such vinyl, tape or CD, etc. and does not cover broadcasting, synch license, digital or other kinds of performance licenses.

For now I must say THANKS and close... but no cigar!

Anyway, I only have one CD out and it's all original songs and/or arrangements of tunes already in the public domain, so I don't need a mechanical license for marketing any of the songs on my CD.

I agree that there should be some kind of License that would be perfectly suited for online performance of cover (and original) songs, but evidently the industry hasn't agreed on the best format yet.

However, I think the closest (most natural) type of license would simply be a performance license such as all the PROs are already serving, but also include online digital streams broadcasting. I'm sure the cost would be very reasonable as even small and mid-size bars, restaurants and other public places can afford to pay the min. fees each year.

Let's see what others say.
Michael

Hey Michael,

As far as I'm aware, there are no PRO roayalties paid by internet "radio stations" for internet streaming, therefor is it a moot point regarding liscences ?

cheers, niteshift

Niteshift,
I think this is changing and I would of course fully support the concept of online (digital streaming) performance royalties just as it's done for TV and other public access areas. In the U.S. radio stations got away with "spinning" records all these years because politically it worked out to the advantage of the record labels to get the "free" exposure, but the music industry doesn't want to make the same mistake again with new online formats and venues.

Take at look at these services:
http://loudcity.com/broadcast
http://loudcity.com/services/requirements

http://www.swcast.net/
Their big issue is royalty parity for all broadcasters.

http://www.ascap.com/weblicense/
Their intro for
NEW MEDIA & INTERNET LICENSES:

We realize that as technology changes and users’ expectations of on-line music grow, ASCAP must continue to be a leader in Internet licensing. Accordingly, we are pleased to announce two new versions of our widely used Internet license agreements: "Non-Interactive 5.0" for non-interactive sites and services; and "Interactive 2.0" for interactive sites and services. A third new agreement, designed for "Wireless Music" (e.g., "ringtones" and "ringbacks"), is available on the Wireless Music page.

http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Podcasting_Legal_Guide

As you can see, it's already here and more is soon coming!
Eventually royalties need to be agreed on so they'll work around the whole world (not just a few countries), because the web makes audience/venue access completely global and not just local. Probably they could charge based on verified monthly or annual audience reach similar to how they license many different kinds of venues including Free and Pay-per Cable TV and subscribed Satellite radio, etc.

Just my 2 cents.
Michael

Two new ideas for you, Danny! Not sure if they're viable:

1 - Update an existing song. Maybe I'm missing how to do this, but I assume we cannot. I often try to improve my mix based on feedback...delete a drumhit, add a cymbal crash, improve compression or EQ... Is there any way of doing this without pulling a song out of competition and reloading it all over again? So far I've been renaming the old version "Deleted Song" and starting a new entry from scratch...seems unnecessary.

2 - Wouldn't it be fun for fans to have the ability to select "Random Judging" mode? Each new match-up in this mode would whisk you off to another category at random, allowing you to listen to music you might never have selected on your own.

Hope you're still monitoring this thread!

-Mark

More suggestions:

1.) Have the ability to move older songs to an "archive" page so they don't show up in your current list of songs.

2.) Ranking also based on "percent rank" versus number. 70th in comedy would be in last place, while 70th in Rock would be higher than almost 95% of all songs.

Kevin

Danny,
Mark and Kevin just contributed some great ideas!

I think having the ability to move older songs to an "archive" page makes sense and having a Ranking abased on "percent rank" is quit brilliant.

Maybe it could be reported in parallel with the current system, but it does make sense to know that (for example) "10th rank" out of how many songs? So maybe the "percent rank" approach would be the best solution!

Michael
Michael

We have members in the final 10 in nearly every single genre! I haven't checked the category winners yet, but let's hope you guys did well!

Brian

Thanks Brian,
And congrats to all that are in the Top 10 today!
BTW, my song "Shir Hashirim" made it into the Semi-finals on the New Age/World channel. Currently it's #6 in the Top 10, but we've still got 10 hours of time left on this round, so we'll see where it ends up.

Michael

The July contest is now history and my instrumental song Shir Hashirim ended up number 8 in the Top 10. I noticed that usually songs with some vocals tends to place higher, but there have been many instrumental songs (with no vocals) in the New Age/World channel that did quit well, so it can swing either way depending on other strengths such as composition, arrangement and production quality, etc.

I'm curious if any A&R types could have predicted which songs would end up in the Top 10 (or Top 5) before the start of the quarter-finals. The July quarter-finals started on the 25th, so anytime before then no one could have known for sure which songs would end up in the top, though there might be plenty of clues based on at least several factors.

Here's a few factors (criteria) I would use if I had to predict a winner before knowing the results of a semi-final or subsequent grand prize contest result.

1. After having heard many (or most) songs in a given channel, (e.g. New Age/World), one could compare relative quality of songs especially on things like: composition, arrangement, production, creativity/originality and performance.

2. If the artist has posted similar songs before (in previous months) in the same channnel that have finished at the top, that might be another positive indicator. It means the artist is probably focusing on their area of "strength" and is targeting their music for a specific kind of genre market. This principal works regardless of genre/channel.

3. Does the artist's song image (photo or artwork) reflect the theme of the genre their in? For example having a country or folk image in New Age/World channel won't look authentic and convincing. It likely to confuse fans and cause the artist to lose votes.

4. In general is there anything offensive or off-topic about the song presentation or production? Offensive words or images might ruin an otherwise great song concept, even if the production is flawless. Off-topic is not always so obvious, but I've heard some great songs that really belong in other channels, so they could end up being removed and/or moved to another channel before the quarter finals.

5. Adding points for each of these critical factors:
Composition - some songs sound great in the first 15 seconds, but where does the song go after that? Does the same melody or chord progression keep getting looped around for the rest of the song, or does it move forwards dynamically to keep my interest?
Arrangement - does the song use a good mix of instruments, voices and other parts, or does it fall short on the overall arrangement?
Production - How good is the production quality? It should be virtually broadcast quality or what's known as "radio ready", but even if very simple it can should still be a very clean mix with a well mastered production to compete against all the other songs in the same channel.
Creativity/Originality - Is this song a "cheap" copy of everything I've heard before in this channel or is it truly fresh and original?
Performance - Is the performance of this song poor, average, very good or outstanding? A bad song could have a great performance and a great song could be very poorly performed, etc.!

I might assign points for each of these criteria and then add them up... or at least be aware of them while deciding which songs also "move" me the most. But even if they don't move me personally, they may still move other voters, judges and fans, so this part gets tricky.

As you can imagine, a lot of songs will earn points for various aspects of their strengths, but the key is to select the songs which have the highest overall scores going for them.

In conclusion:
I think it's a mix of "art & science" to be able to accurately predict which songs will make it to the top for any given contest channel. I'd like to challenge myself, and anyone that wants to try this, in an upcoming "Challenge" which I'll post on our new Challenge forum! It's also a good way to learn to be more objective when selecting and preparing one's own songs before entering them into a contest channels.

Michael

I know people who could have nailed the 10 songs that BELONGED in the top 10.. but with mass opinion, it's rarely going to match because a group of people never think the same as 1 person. And an A&R person has to hear BEYOND the public. The public has the freedom to make a rash decisions and if they change their mind drastically the very next time they hear the song (for better or worse) no big deal. An A&R person has to predict what the masses might like across the spectrum from short, mid and long term listening cycles. And they have to take other issues into consideration like marketing strengths of a band, predictable listener groups as well as target listener groups (whereas Top 40 radio might be predictable but 18-22 year olds might be target etc..). Now, am I saying that all A&R people are even that bright or have that ability? No. But some have, on more occassionas than not, been able to do that successfully and have great track records. Some just get lucky and many miss the boat completely.

It's the reason why I don't do their little "A&R" game because I know I can pick the best song.. but I also know that often the mass public voted differently.. it doesn't make me wrong by any stretch.. because if the public heard that song 10 more times, they'd feel differently and closer to what I predict than they probably did after 1 listen.

Brian

Ha ha, that's great Brian!
Thanks for expounding on this important point how trained, seasoned A&R decision makers have to take all these factors into account and weigh them in the balance.

As I thought, it's quit an art & science. The "art" is in the heart & ear of the listener, just like a great producer has great ears (experience & talent) to guide him with his final mix & production, and the "science" is having all the right knowledge and research about the market and current trends, etc.

If it was ALL science, it could be easily programmed into a computer and turned into a "no brainer" business, but obviously it doesn't work that way, there's too much "art" involved and only a precious few truly achieve that level of talent to be able to judge (or predict) outcomes on an industry level.

Michael

It's about time that Ourstage steps up the ability to remove music from their website. Right now it's not possible from a user standpoint without intervention from Ourstage and contacting them to do it, this is a glaring problem. When is Ourstage going to create a delete audio from server button that the account holder and make use of?

Do I need to go post the same question on your profile Danny?

As it stands right now, when you upload music to Ourstage it's being held hostage from removal via the account holders control.

Jody,
I agree 100%!

From a technical point, it would be very easy to add this delete/remove feature, especially since all public music sites like Broadjam, MySpace, PureVolume and SoundClick, etc. support such basic feature, except last.fm - but we'll save that for another topic.

I can understand that if a song is in the middle of a contest month, it should probably stay on their server and also (maybe) once a song has won in the Top-10 or higher rank, there's NO harm to leave it there unless there unless a publisher prefers to have it removed, but generally it would be good promo to simply leave it on the system.

However, for any songs that have ended in 11th or lower rank, it should be no problem to remove them after any contest month, or during a time when it is NOT entered in any contest.

Currently they do allow removing of such songs (not sure about winners though), but it's more work for them to have manual intervention from both the artists and the OurStage support team. Doesn't make sense... unless they are still deciding about their removal policies/logistics.

Michael

Hi Jody and Michael:

ShowcaseYourMusic allows removal of songs and it's the easiest interface for this type music site I've seen. I've been very pleased with everything but one. I suspect they are not really big with the A&R departments of Publishers, Labels and other music related entities. It's just not the way things seem to work in Nashville or other music centers. These folks (music centers) want you to send them a CD, the Lyric(s) and a cover letter. It's been that way for quite some time now... and they are pretty comfortable with it that way.

Regards,

Dave

http://www.showcaseyourmusic.com/DaveRice

Dave,
I haven't heard of Showcase Your Music until now, but the basic concept does look interesting. I just visited their site to get a quick overview for who they are and what they're doing. Along my fact-finding mission I found a few things I'll list here:

1. Artists can upload unlimited songs, videos and images for free, but no price list is shown for other services, so either something is "hidden" from view or the site must depend on advertising or other sales to support it's business model.

2. According to WhoIs, their domain was registered in May 2006 using a Godaddy private listing (registration) service. This is neither good nor bad, but please readon on...

3. When you click "Contact" at bottom of page it only opens up your email program and there is no other contact info about the owners, management, address, phone number and no "About" page to learn more about the company, mission statement, or background/credentials, etc.

4. Their tag line says: "The Official A&R Resource System". It's one thing to say "An Online A&R Resource System" but to claim they are "The Official" one sounds more like hype than a reality they can support with proven facts based on track record. For example, are they associated with one of the PROs, the RIAA or a major label, etc.?

5. They claim high traffic rankings, but in the last year their rankings have dropped sharply as shown here: Showcase Your Music - Compete Rankings. Compare with OurStage.com which keeps zooming up since they launched around the same time.

6. On their "success" page they say: "You'll get something you probably don't have right now, the opportunity to get your music heard by people who are looking for what you've got."
Ok, that's nice, but we've all heard of artists being heard & found on many places including MySpace, CDBaby, Taxi, OurStage, and on their own websites. For example one of my songs (New Every Morning) got into a nice indie film project via a direct contact through my SoundClick profile a few years ago. So, could it happen on "Showcase Your Music"? Sure, but it could happen anywhere and even more likely as a Grand prize winner on OurStage. So how can they backup their promise?

Summary:
Companies and services that are transparent and reachable will tend to do better then companies that have to "hide" their business and contact information. Personally I would not be comfortable doing business with a service that has a "faceless" name. I'd be much more comfortable if I knew who the founder was, maybe a bit about their management team, background, interests, qualifications, mission statement and telephone number in case I'd like to call. I like dealing with real people and not just a faceless machine, or at least it would seem more appropriate for the music business.

It's the lack of these elements & credentials that make the whole site appear somewhat distant, removed and out-of-touch with the artist community. But then again, maybe this is what artists want and where the new music biz is heading?!

That's "just plain" my perspective!
Michael

Hi Michael:

I can't argue with any of your points. I drifted over to OurStage to make a comparison. What I saw was a pretty busy site. I'm not into busy. I don't give a rip about videos, never have and never will. Music is about my ears... not my eyes. I have an imagination and music stimulates that for me.

It looks like the participants at OurStage end up having to do lots of tweedle-de and tweedle-dum stuff in order to play the game. I'm not into that either. I just want my music to be heard.
I'm really not fond of the "social-networking" aspects of any of these sites. I don't need to be carried away on the shoulders of an adoring fan base. I just want my songs to enter the hearts and minds of people who will listen and enjoy. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy new, honest to goodness friends, like you... but I never delude myself that friendship is as easy as falling off the back of a turnip truck.

Sorry for the mini-rant. There are some positives about OurStage and I will explore it some more. I certainly didn't care much for ASCAP's new social networking thingy... even though I posted a couple of songs there. I don't think the perfect site or model has been created yet. Time will tell.

All my best,

Dave

Dave,
Yep... I hear ya!
Social this, social that... before the internet we had Ice Cream socials... think I'll get my self a bowl of ice cream (or something) and blog about it later on some "nichey" social network!

Cheers,
Michael

Dave,

Wow.. sorry but you're totally missing the point here. The "social" part is to attract fans and keep them coming. Do you really think the fans are just going to come and listen to your music sort of randomly and without any reason to? What happens when 100's or 1000's or 10,000 or 100,000 songs are on that other site? No one will ever hear you and no one will have the slightest reason to care.

As for their claim of being the "official" anything.. that alone is reason to consider them a scam. There's no such thing as an official A&R anything for everyone or everything... as Michael suggested, they COULD be the official A&R for Sony.. or something to that effect.. but if they were, they'd scream it from the rooftop. Their claim is as hollow as the 1000's of restaraunts that claim to have the world's best Chili or the greatest Hamburger. Or there's people who PAY for the rights to be called official, like the official sponsors of the Olympics. But really.. how lame is "Offical A&R Resource System?" Extremely would be my answer.

If you don't want to give fans a reason to come and listen, then no one is going to hear you. If you have to PAY those guys money to listen (i.e. as a service to you), big deal. You can pay people on this very site to listen to your music. All that will result is you having less money. If they plan on competing with TAXI, they can stand in line with all the failed companies that have come before them trying to do the same thing. TAXI has a 16 year head start on them. If anyone could claim being the "official" A&R company, it would be them.

When a site has nothing about them viewable to the public without forcing you to give them your contact info (which is a great money maker when you want to sell info to marketing companies and spammers of all types, or simply to spam them yourself forever and a day afterwards) and they have a really stupid name that fans are not likely to be able to find even if they are looking (since it's so hard to spell) it raises a large number of red flags. And without being user friendly, why would anyone ever need or want to go there to hear music when there's a zillion other places to do it? The answer is, they won't.

So have fun on that site getting heard by no one. And wait for the other shoe to drop when they need to either charge you money to be there or come up with some gimmicks to get anyone on the planet to care.

Brian

Jody,

I think they will come around on the delete audio thing. I understand their need and desire for an archive and to keep people from scewing stuff up by deleting songs constantly and screwing up the judging and ranking system. I think once a contest is over and you're not in the top 10, that it makes sense to let folks just pull the audio off the site at will. I think when it's in the top 10, there should be a time period at least where it needs to stay there. After all, money is involved and the evidence of what was entered and what finished in the Top 20 to enter the playoffs should be maintained for some period. If it doesn't make the playoffs, then it shouldn't matter.

Imagine if the top 10 songs pulled themselves off what those who were not in the final 10 would say? (They'd claim it was all insiders and fixed etc... and that they were hiding the evidence etc..) In addition, fans could do what they now do and that is to visit the top 10 and listen to the best music. Artists should WANT those songs to remain.. it gives value to the site, gives fans more reason to check it out and hear good stuff rather than a mix of good and bad in the voting process and it represents the value of the site to both industry and fans by showing how good the top stuff is. Since Ourstage doesn't charge, they need to have something to attract and maintain traffic for advertising revenue. We want to them to stick around in the community. So far they've been nothing but a positive factor not just to JPF, but to everyone else.

So give them a chance to realize on their own that they don't really need all the losers and if folks want to pull them for whatever reason (not really sure why anyone is so worried to pull it in the first place.. people are so paranoid all while often being all to happy to post stuff on sites that clearly state they take ownership whereas Ourstage says the opposite and doesn't take ownership) then let them.

Brian

Brian,

So far, I have agreed with almost everything you have had to say about "Our Stage". You mentioned to Jody you are not sure why anyone is so worried they would want to pull their song off of Our Stage.

Here is one reason, although it is not s "worried" issue: I have a song that has done fairly well in Tropical, made the quarters a couple of times. Several people have told me why they think it didn't go any farther than the quarters...all the same opinion. Our Stage does not allow you to edit the song itself. They allow you to edit the artwork and info about the song; but you cannot edit the music per se. I recut my song for the Tropical channel. I cannot replace the original version with the edited version. I have to give it a new name and upload it as though it were a new song to my account. Thus, I would have "Tropical Of Candy Corn" and "Tropic Of Candy Corn- 1st Revision", or something to that effect. They would be presented as two different songs, although the only difference between the two songs is some edits here and there.

If they allowed for composition edits, PRIOR to the month of the competition in which the song would be entered, that would not affect any competition and I wouldn't have several originals with revised editions of the same song clogging up their system and my account.

Also, some one might eventually realize that the song they posted is really atrociously bad and they want to pull it so the embarrassment will not continue. My poor judgment has allowed me to post a couple over at SOundclick which I removed because I later realized how terrible they really were. When our "babies" are newborn, we often think they are much better than they really are. And we don't always excercise the virtue of patience before posting. Also, I simply posted the wrong version on one of them. The bass was so loud, seismologists got nervous every time the song was played.

Regardless of the provision for us to remove songs, we should at least be able to edit them anytime they are not entered into a competition.

Just a couple of thoughts.

Alan

Alan,

I think your situation is quite rare and certainly you could just let them know what you need to do and I bet they'd quickly do it. (In fact, I have yet to hear of anyone who was refused removal of their songs when asking). I am also not aware of a situation where you can't withdraw a song you'd be "embarrassed" by from public competition. If it's a bad song no one is going to be seeking it out anyway, but that's beside the point.

I don't disagree that it should be easier to move songs off their site. But I also understand the complications that can arrive. Frankly, if it were me, I wouldn't allow people to switch out songs mid month. I'd let people pull songs and then enter a new one to start off the next coming month, but not jump in midstream. So in some ways they are way more lenient than I would be and other ways they have policies that are more difficult. That's how anything would be and certainly a free resource has to constantly tweak what they do to lock into the magic formula that works best for them. Perhaps Daniel will check in and comment on this.

Brian

Brian,

No argument with any of what you said. It all makes sense as you stated it. Thanks!

Alan

re Your Suggestion Ben " Singer Songwriter " ?? could refer to almost any Genre Known To Man ??

I agree with ALAN we should be able to edit our submissions, as time passes we generally improve

as writers If not we are stuck in a rut of delusion, believing we can all write like a professional

when in fact we are still learning

This is an old post Cheyenne. The funny thing is that the "Daniel" from Ourstage that I frequently mention throughout the post is Daniel Palmer. For those who don't know, he has since become a best selling author of mystery genre books. He was a musician like everyone else around here but his father Michael Palmer (also a best selling author of medical thrillers) taught him the family business before he passed away and Daniel hit the ground running.

So much talent out there, of all types!

Brian