JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Criticism...Helpful or Hurtful?

Hi Nite,

This is not about my level of writing, so I don't see the point.
I am confident in my level of skill that I don't feel the need to post my Music up to Justify Jim's desire to 'Teach' me a few things.
I don't need to play that game.
I have a great respect for other peoples opinion of my Music when I post it. There is always something to be learned, but as of right now I don't care for his opinion.

How do you justify someone not taking me seriously because I don't have an immediate link to my Music?
My opinion here is one of many here. I don't happen to agree with
Jim's perspective. It's as simple as that.

I don't see Jim asking for anyone elses Music to be Posted because there is a difference of opinion, why is that?
Why are YOU playing to that?

I may not agree with Jim's perspective, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate how he came to it.
Again, maybe you should follow the thread closely to assess what the discussion is about.

It's not about MY Writing, I have an opinion here just like you do. I do not need a link to YOUR music to take you seriously.
I respect everyone ability to write what they write, whatever the Level that is.-Cheers to you as well=)

Hi Bernd,

"I do NOT believe that songwriters/artists can be sucessful over a stretch of time if they are no good. The record companies may be able to push beautiful young girlies up to the top to create a one-hit wonder, but that's about it. Those who stay at the top for years are there BECAUSE they are good (marketing campaigns do their part, of course)."

I think you make some very valid points here, thanks for posting!
BTW, Do you have a Link to Your Music? (Just kidding)
See Jim, I have a sense of humor=)-Dana

I was thinking about the title of this thread, and it occurred to me that criticism probably is neither helpful nor hurtful...it's only our response to criticism that helps or hurts.

Until you decide to change the song, all the criticism in the world is of little or no consequence.

Critiques are opinions--some are priceless, some are worthless, some are just second-guesses based on personal preferences. As artists, we need to hone our ability to assess critiques, and I think that skill is a lot more important to understand than the critiques themselves. Without that skill and the courage to trust in it, you may end up forever confused by a nonstop merry-go-round of other people's opinions.

So is criticism helpful or hurtful? It's up to you.

Dana It has been my experience that every serious songwriter, singer or band I know go to great lengths to get folk to listen to their work and never ever pass up on any opportunity. This may be partly to boost ego but most often to get exposure, recognition and respect and with that comes the possibility of a record deal. That is the reason that sites like Ourstage, Soundclick, Reverbnation, etc were formed and thrive. Most people on this site post a link to their work in the hope that others will look them up and listen to their music.

Very strangely you are the first and only songwriter I have come across who actively goes out of their way to prevent and avoid their work from being listened to. I do not think I need spell out the conclusion that myself and others like Niteshift have come to. Now this could be wrong and I apologise if it is but heck...your position is not looking good.

I have spelled out in great detail my thoughts on the topic you posted and also covered if not caused the drifts in the thread. My apologies for that. However sometimes thread drifts can be more informative and educational than sticking to the original subject.

We have been bombarded with so much crap for so long that the bar has been lowered to such an extent that mediocrity has become the norm. It is time to take a stand...pretending that these songs and these standards are acceptable is only hurting the industry and the decent songwriters and performers who do not work to this lowered bar.

Now you are correct when you say that pretty pop stars with little talent come and go and real talent is there to stay. The sad part is that our industry is ignoring real talent in favour of accepting the pretenders and encouraging the stupid public to go along with it. It is time we no longer are willing to accept this mediocrity and demand better. That is the reason I say that certain acts and certain songs suck....Sour grapes has nothing to do with it. I repeat what I said in an earlier post I have no intentions of being any part of the sham that is boy bands girl bands, manufactured pop and stupid reality TV.

Hi Jim,

[b][/b]

Foolish assumptions........? you offer nothing to prove that these are foolish assumptions.

You criticise and disagree with my opinions which you find "amusing". These opinions are based on forty years of first hand experience at the hard end of the business....yet you offer nothing to show your experience or that your opinions have any validation. How can you expect to be taken seriously.

Methinks you read too many books and write too few songs. I know guys who have drawers full of positive critiques from so called hit writers and read every book on songwriting they can lay their hands on but none of their songs earn dollar one....never will. Like you they defend the rose tinted view of the business simply because they have never experienced it. Boy would they get a big surprise if they ever did.

Do not get me wrong I love music and I love the music business warts and all....I just did not realise there would be so many warts.

Now excuse me I am off on tour to Lanzarote Spain for a week or two.....got to make a crust. The sunshine will be a welcome break from the snow....and your posts.

Hi Dana, I've been keeping up on this thread. Boy, you seem to be big on opinions and small on proving yourself. Please do us all a favor and admit that you're wrong, or at least give us access to a song that you have recorded so that each one of us can give you a fair and balanced critique of your music.

Maybe you're not a musician at all. If not, let us know. We'll understand. But please stop this unnecessary back and fourth with Jim. You're wasting our time.

We all have a song to brag about. Where's your's?

Hay Dana,

I guess that's my point. It depends upon who is doing the critique, and their level of experience.

If you wish to debate a point with Big Jim, who has forty years of industry experience, then you have to be forthright with your own experience.

It's very hard to take someone seriously when you don't know what they've done, and where they've been.

Eveyone here has great disaggreements with each other at some points in time, but they are opinional upon style, content, and experience, and with respect for the other fellows work.

I might not like someones song, but I am able to say for example " at bar 42, your timing is off on the bass" or " the whole song should be stepped up by 2-3 BPM"

These things are not opinions. They are fact, and valid criticism of a writers work, as they deal with substance over circumstance.

cheers, niteshift

For Gosh sakes, will you never forget that!!!

Never Mike ! ( but I don't recall it being yourself ) Perhaps the guilty have spoken up !

I won't even mention when I had to relegate your perfect root note in bar 45 to a realtive minor, digatally, so we didn't need to record the whole track again.

Or another time you forgot to switch on your vocal track compression and wondered why it had no presence ?

You see Dana, that critisicsm around here relates to experience.

I give Mike D crap. He gives it back to me. I give that crap to Big Jim, who then says "It's all CRAP !"..... and then Big Jim points it towards Greg Watton, who writes pop songs which make No1 on Korean media,... and so on,.... and with no disrespect, these guys are welcome in my studio any time.

Why ?

Because they're real musicians. And do what they do in VERY different fields, and do it very well.

I could name a host of others, also, but to make the point about criticism......

Is it hurtful ? Only to those that don't want to improve or don't want something better from their own toil.

cheers, niteshift

PS - and that includes myself also. When I'm contemplating stuff, I want the the best people around me to tell me the truth ( as they see it )

@Dayson

since you asked: http://www.soundclick.com/members/default.cfm?member=berndharmsen
(under "Artist/Band pages of this user")

and also: http://www.myspace.com/motorplanet
(No.1, 4, and 5)

I'm mainly refering to lyrics since I'm a lousy musician myself, but I'm good at matching my lyrics with other's music. There is only one(!) country song to date out of about 300. A few of my own musical ideas are good, and "Sabrina" will probably be produced this year, as for my music it's my own presentations and productions that are crap.

At the moment I'm writing for dance and party songs. I believe that the following snippet of my lyrics "party junkie" is great and fits the musical genre perfectly:

I wanna pa, pa, pa, pa party
'cos I'm a party junkie
I luv to pa, pa, pa, pa party
I'm crazy, and I am funky

From a different perspective, i.e. if you think of a different musical genre, it would be utter crap. That's why I think that genres matter a lot. At least with respect to lyrics.

*****

Trying to write a hit song if you don't have a name yet is nonsense. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of excellent musicians and songwriters out there. To become famous and to top the charts you need staying power and (lots of) luck.

For me discussing my stuff and being criticized is important to become better and better at what I'm doing, albeit as a hobby. It has nothing to do with charts (MotorPlanet play Blues Rock, the Selfastrays play Punk - both are not excactly contemporary music with strong hit potential).

Cheers,
Bernd

Hi Jim,

I don't need to. It's a simple as that.
My opinion is a valid as yours or Ben's or Nite's.
If you disagree with my opinion.
Then that's okay too.

Ben,

If anyone is wasting their time following this discussion, then
they are free as well to not follow it.
You don't need my permission for that.(but I suspect)
You might need Jim's:)

Jim,

I hope you Do have a great time on Vacation.
Try not to be So 'Hurt' because I choose not to be a 'Pawn'
for your 'Humble Services'

I will consider this your last post on the Subject.
Thanks for the interesting and still amusing discussion.

Hi Bernd!

I was making light of the fact that a few here think I should have to post a link to my own music to have a difference of opinion.
But I am so glad you did!

I don't think you give yourself enough credit.
I really enjoyed 'Mother', are you playing as well?

No one really knows what will be a 'Hit Song' but I think it's a worthy endeavor to aspire to write one.
Everyone has the same tools as everyone else.

Lyics-Melody-Musicanship.

How they choose to develop and use them is another thing.
Welcome to JPF!
As you will soon find out, it's a great place to discuss everything Music Related.
There are a lot of great People here!
Thanks for responding!-Dana

"Mother" - that's MotorPlanet. My words to Holger's music, MotorPlanet - a three piece Blues Rock band - performing.

I only touch an instrument and try to sing when nobody is listening ;-) I even produce and publish my own stuff (60 titles by now). Maybe my folk songs are not THAT bad. Unfortunately, I don't particularly like folk. My rock pieces are very bad, indeed. I love rock. That's one of the paradoxes of life, I guess.

I've been around here since a while, by the way. With exception of the deletion of "Sabrina" (because of my rather drastic slide show on YouTube, I guess) I'm quite happy with this place :-)

Bernd

Hi Nite,

I'm all for Constructive Critiques. This is NOT about that.
This is about Criticizing another Songwriters work as a whole and basically trashing them.
I asked How does that 'Help' us as Songwriters moving forward with
our own Songs?
Somehow it keeps going back to 'Critiquing' a Song.
This is not the same thing.

Jim,

Wanted to try to discredit my difference of opinion by basically wanting to put himself in position of Judge and Jury of any Song I would be 'Foolish' enough to Submit to his Judgement.
I didn't ask for his Forty Years of experience, and the "Spirit"
that it was 'Given' in is Ridiculous.

For the Life of me, I can't fathom why You or Ben here would think I would want someone with such a Negative Sweeping View of Today's Music Critiquing anything I write?
The 'Offer' was not given, I feel with Good Intentions.
If someone is willing to Subject themselves to such a thing, then be my guest.

I'm not that person. Try not to take it personal huh?
There might be many reasons why I didn't provide a Link to My Music.

Maybe I don't have any at the Moment.
Maybe I'm pitching it to Someone in the Industry.
Maybe I haven't gotten Those New Songs back from the Studio.
Maybe they are posted here.
Maybe they are on Reverb Nation -Myspace.

Jim,
Made foolish assumptions about Why they are not.
It seems he may not be alone in that.
I don't need a Link to your Music to respect that you might
have a differing opinion than mine.

If you fail to see that, then you have to settle that with yourself.-Dana

Hey Dana,

I really don't think you should use the expression "our" when referring to songwriters ...... it's all relative.

cheers, niteshift

Oh Good!
I was afraid we may have given the wrong impression to you=)

"Maybe my folk songs are not THAT bad. Unfortunately, I don't particularly like folk"

This cracked me up!

I don't think they were bad at all.
They took me back in a time warp that was not of my Time, so
I think you Succeeded!
-Cheers!-Dana

Dana I am not away yet but will be in a few hours time. By the way it is not a vacation it is work......you must know what work is.... it is when someone pays someone else to perform music in public. I do it a lot. That is how I make a living full time. I have been doing it for over forty years. Now as you so rightly say everyone can have an opinion...that said you have to have credentials in order for that opinion to be taken seriously.
So far you have done nothing to show yours. In fact it can be said that you have done everything to avoid it.
Now Nite nailed it by saying that we can disagree and argue with each other based on our own experiences cause we all know each others strengths weakness and we respect and understand each other and value each others opinions. It goes without saying that we would all work with and help each other out where we can despite our differences.
I am not hurt by your comments I just find them laughable.......I am too old too wise and too thick skinned. I see that they come from someone who has little or no experience or idea what they are talking about. It is akin to someone who has just completed their first painting by numbers kit telling a Royal Academy member how to paint....then rebuking him when he points out that they are in any way wrong.

I will go back to what I said earlier...learn the craft....learn how to play an instrument to a decent level...learn the theory of music and how to write lyrics to accompany it.......then when you have some decent songs in your portfolio.... learn how to fine tune them and how to present them to the market place you want to aim for. When you have reached that place maybe then will folks start to take you seriously. Of course a bit of humility might help you meantime till you get to that point. This forum is a good place to start...... post your lyrics on the boards (I assume that you just write lyrics)......read the critiques and learn from them.

Hi Jim,

I find it amusing that You're the one giving advice on Humility.
Let's say we can agree to disagree then.
I see no point in going around in circles with you.
Have a nice day at the Office Jim.

Dana just read your recent post. I was calling your bluff and you showed a losing hand. That said you have me all wrong. If you did post anything I would have given you a fair and honest critique which might have taught you something or helped you in some way. That is how I work I am not spiteful or dishonest and I do not bear grudges......Your loss.
The reason others have a similar opinion of you is that they, like me, are astute enough to spot a complete beginner who perhaps has too much to say for themselves....and perhaps too high an opinion.

Don't you find this a bit Juvenile?

Yes.......sometimes juveniles have to be put in their place. A sensible one would take heed and take a hint. So show some sense and respect. Learn the lesson. PM me a lyric and I will critique it....heck if it is any good I might put music to it and record it for ya....free of charge. I cant say fairer than that. Shooosh Do not tell others though or they will all want a free demo.

Nite,

I don't think it's productive to carry on a discussion in this manner. I do wish you well though.=)Dana

Jim,

You seem to think you can 'Bully' anyone here with your overbearing opinions just because you have them.
And maybe that works for you.
By all means put me in my 'Place' because you feel that
You can. Knock yourself out.
I don't feel the need to carry on such a distasteful conversation.
I will leave you to this.
Be well=)-Dana

Sorry you feel that way and sorry you cannot accept an olive branch...again you loss.......I will not waste my valuable time on you again.

I think anyone can have an opinion on anything and if they are respectful and insightful in their commentary, there should be no need for them to provide their own music.

If they are being rude, and not offering anything (such as what doesn't work, why it doesn't and how it could be fixed as one example) of value in return, then it makes sense that someone would ask what their experience was.

If that question is answered (i.e. what is your experience, where are you coming from), it's less relevant to hear their music or read their lyrics as those two things do not make a comment relevant or truthful. Someone with great credentials can be nothing more than a rude jerk who is full of crap in their comments just as a newbie can make an insightful comment on a song by a Hall of Fame writer which is 100% valid.

But that same person shouldn't be afraid of speaking out if they offer valid info whether they show their credentials or not. The only resulting factor is that someone would be equally free to ignore those comments if they felt the person wasn't qualified enough to trust their opinion. I think having an idea if someone has industry experience, or is an artist or songwriter or both or neither or if a person has been doing it for 10 minutes or 25 years is helpful to provide context to their input. But in the end, it doesn't really matter. An expert can offer 100% valid criticism with oodles to back up every word and the creator can still decide they disagree. But they should never berate anyone's non abusive feedback based on experience, talent or credentials. Because none of those things matter if the comment itself is helpful or insightful. It either is or isn't. If you are unable to tell the difference, compare that comment to other comments you've gotten from people who have the pedigree you desire... but in truth, as they sometimes say, even out of the mouth of babes, profound truth can emerge. (I am not direct quoting anyone there, but I know there's a quote similar to that).

And in case anyone didn't know, you can choose to ignore anyone's comments (except mine..no matter how much some might desire that) and stop seeing their posts if they really bother you.

Brian