JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum so who really controls the world??

I know what you mean, John - I always am.

Here is something I didn't know until recently. Foreigh aid is less than 1% of our budget. To put this into perspective, we are currently overspending our revenues by about 40%. We could cut foreign aid entirely and barely make a dent in the deficit.

The lions share of tax revenues go to social security, medicare, medicaid, defense, and paying interest on the debt. No budget will ever be balanced until whopping cuts come out of those - and interest on the debt can't be cut.

Defense, social security and our health care system - that's where all the money that we have control over goes.

Scott

I agree Scott. My comment was more of a moral judgement on foreign aid going to despicable places like Pakistan and North Korea.

BTW, here's our current National Debt: $15,134,609,380,294 - In the time it took my to type the N.D. it changed to: $15,134,613,207,475. Check here for split second updates: http://www.babylontoday.com/national_debt_clock.htm (can check the current interest on the debt there too) Unbelievable!

John

Humm,
Another program that was put in place to help the Allies during WW-2 was the Lend-Lease Act. The United States sent billions of aid to Britian and other Allies during the war. I think Russia still owes us money from the program, never to be re-paid and has been forgotten. You can Google it and read about it. Yes we never did anything for anybody!

Humm,
Is that the best you can come up with...that was nearly seventy years ago......since then both our countries have started illegal wars invaded other countries and meddled in other countries politics and governments.....usually because we want their oil....or hate their religion or political system and we want to replace it with our own.....this has caused us huge expense by way of taxes that WE pay JUST to benefit the big companies who plunder other folks oil etc....nowadays foreign aid is less than 1% of budget.....meanwhile big fat cats owe billions in unpaid taxes through tax dodging and avoidance.
Scott mentioned the huge tax bill for our defence program it is in fact an attack program not defence.....we do not need a defence program as nobody has attacked us in over sixty years.....even the 911 outrage and other acts of terrorism was as a direct result in us meddling in other countries business and sending in troops we had no right or reason to send in....all so the capitalist ideals can flourish.
If capitalism is so great how come it starts so many wars, costs the working man so much and the big cats get away with paying nothing?
We are sucked in by the lies and propoganda fed to us by crooked business and politicians and are powerless to do anything about it...we even turn on the folks like me who point out the evils of capitalism and what is happening underneath our own noses.
Perhaps we as a society deserve what we get as we are so gullible, apathetic and stupid.

Jim:

I'm surprised you bother to live in Scotland. As I recall, that great country gave birth to half the mechanical inventions and contrivances that led to the rise of the United Kingdom before the world wars which followed years later. It is obvious you are content to argue the socialist line despite the freedoms you enjoy. Without capitalism, the engine of invention in Scotland would never have emerged. You, my friend would now be living as a vassal to England.

I know from your past expressions that you embrace athiesm as well as socialism... and that is your business but one of your countrymen, a former slave ship captain, wrote the hymn most revered in nearly all the world... "Amazing Grace."

I would argue that the United States was not "built" on slavery although it did exist even in Dutch Colonial times here... with slaves provided by English and Scottish Traders. Then, of course, there was the "civil war" here that resulted in the emancipation of the slaves. The emergence of the United States as a world power did not occur until the period prior to WWI.
Many former slaves or children of slaves made valuable contributions to that new found prosperity. George Washington Carver comes to mind.

Finally, those awful capitalists who dared to enter WWII to defend your country and others from Nazi Tyranny made it possible for you to stand over there and decry our ways.

Consider this, please... America does not make a practice of occupying or incorporating the countries it defeats in war. (The only nation I can recall to achieve the distinction of being permanently occupied... is the Confederate States of America.) Germany and Japan are strong industrial nations. Even the former Soviets realize that democratic principles will eventually free them to prosper.

Jim, it is unfortunate that each individual is not born into this world with complete equality including wealth. The awful truth is that 75% of those individuals would squander their wealth in short order in foolish endeavors of many descriptions.
Probably a good 10% of them would be paying song sharks to take them to the next level... LOL!

Dave for the record my gripe is not with America it is with Capitalism....I am ashamed to say that we here in Scotland and the rest of the UK are almost as capitalistic as your country.....To question me staying here in Scotland is kinda silly it is a bit like me saying to Brian well if you hate Obama that much why not move.
It is interesting that the great Hymn you mention was written by a slaver...just further shows the hypocrisy of religion.
History is written by the winner, so much of the truth and dirty deeds done are airbrushed out. I believe that much of the dirty deeds done by Governments and business today is also airbrushed out. We the common man do not know the half of what goes on.
I say these things not to provoke argument but to educate and to try to make people THINK.
We have it easy.....others not so......Apathy and ignorance are the main foe.....capitalism thrives on this.
To say that we owe capitalism a huge debt or anything to be grateful for is a myth...they owe the whole world big time. They have plundered raped and pillaged......all in the name of progress and freedom....nothing can be further from the truth.
The wars you speak of were started by capitalists and deranged dictators.......as usual the only ones who benefit are the big businesses and the ones who suffer are the pawns they control.....disposable ants.
BTW....Slavery was a much bigger part of your economy than you care to admit....OK it was abolished technically way back...but it still carried on in certain areas and attitudes never changed. Even today in the deep south black people are treated as an underclass.....even in living memory blacks in America were treated like slaves and had very few rights compared to their white counterparts. I remember the riots and Martin Luther King's speech....I remember in the late sixties James Brown holding a concert and singing about being black and proud....because of the way black people were being treated.
So please do not keep saying how fair your country is and how we should be grateful for all you do for us.....when you could not until very recently be fair to your own people.

.... dipping my toe in the water ..... wooh, I'm out of this discussion (rather enjoyable though).

Tom

That was a good post Dave,
I always learn something new when you post. Big Jim is one of those that Wants his Cake and Eat it too. He thinks with just a few adjustments the world would be perfect. Our current Occupient of the White House also thinks that way. But even he is finding out how hard it is.

Perhaps Big Jim has never heard of Pandora's box. Too bad.

Ray I do have an education and know about Pandora's box.....it was opened many thosands of years ago....guess what?....a whole load of evil greedy capitalists jumped out and the world has never been the same since.
Whilst you also may have had an education...you like so many fellow capitalists suffer from selective memory loss.

Folks,
What our friend from parts unknown doesn't realise is that all that Recording Equipment he likes and buys and uses was made by, Capitalists. All the brain work and dirty work was done by, you guessed it, Little Elves in secret places! All escaped from, Pandora's Box! Now all our friend from parts unknown, has to do is put all those dirty greedy eleves back in the box. Now do you think our friend really want's to do that???? I don't think so, do you??? But we really do love our friend, from parts unknown.

Well Ray it is not very often you are right BUT...... you are wrong again......first off.... my parts are very well known....and of course I am indebted to the elves who make and design the various electronics I use......Where I do have a beef is with the capitalists who control these elves, steal their ideas or make them produce these things for a pittance of a wage......history has shown us that many a clever little elf design or invention which was initially designed or made to benefit mankind has been corrupted by capitalists for military warmongering and actually done us more harm than good when put into the hands of the wrong persons.
Nuclear technology, the wheel, explosives to name a few.....first desigend to aid mankind but in the hands of capitalists used to destroy mankind.
Most of the stuff we buy nowadays is way overpriced with too many people like middlemen and shareholders taking too much of a cut along the way...sadly the poor folk at the bottom end who produce the thing are shafted....as are us consumers....

Hey, Big Jim:

It's obvious to me that we dwell in opposite poles of the universe... LOL! I'm never gonna convince you that I'm right and you will not be able to persuade a died-in-the-wool capitalist like me that you are correct. Let's just say that we disagree on this topic and move on. After all, on this site... it's music that ties us together, right? I'd rather have you for a friend than an adversary. It's sad that we do not live in a perfect world. I respect your viewpoint and admire your tenacity.

All the best,

Dave

so who really controls the world??

Simple: The Weather!

Always has, always will. For every creature. Start with the making of The Earth, then move forward in time. Notice how the weather allowed things to grow, creatures to eat the growth. Creatures to eat the other creatures that moved to certain areas,,,,because of what? Water. How does water go up to make clouds, then goes back down to the earth as rain? The Weather!

And, with the weather being such a long term fact of life, you'd think the forecasters would be right more than only 64% of the time!

Besides that, Brian for president!

At least he gives answers! And with "much" to think about and look up. Reminds me of Chris Christie, my state's Gov.

Politicians just seem like actors and lying attorneys, JUST thinking of their side, and damn the truth. (Except for Ronald Reagan), as he only looked like he was trying to act in films!

Thanks Dave...I am honoured to have such friends as you and all the others here...let me assure you all that I count all JPFs as friends.....despite disagreements on many subjects including religion, politics and even music. My bark is much worse than my bite and I never... I repeat never... bear grudges or cast up things from the past. I look forward to having these run ins with my friends every now and again it is good for exchanging ideas and viewpoints.....even Ray who I lock horns with on many occasions I count as a friend and he is most welcome to share a few beers with me...providing in true capitalist spirit he allows me to pay.

"even Ray who I lock horns with on many occasions I count as a friend and he is most welcome to share a few beers with me...providing in true capitalist spirit he allows me to pay" - Jim

Sure that isn't a Socialist's spirit Jim? Capitalists expect to pay their own way.

Yes, I definitely consider you to be a friend Jim - or should I say comrade?

Never mind, just a little buffoonery.

Best, John

All kidding aside, since my teen years I've been a diehard libertarian. A laissez-faire capitalist. However, any form of government is going to punish some and reward others. One fatal flaw in laissez-faire capitalism lies in the concept "property rights", particularly land ownership. It's possible in laissez-faire capitalism (at least in theory) for a company like Walmart to eventually own the World's land mass. In which case, everyone that respected property rights would be a slave to Walmart.

The problem with Socialism is in their motto: " to each according to his needs". Under this philosophy the irresponsible would benefit, while the responsible would be burdened by the irresponsible. One example... under Socialistic conditions, a woman giving birth to a dozen children would be rewarded and given a greater share of the common wealth, while the responsible couple living within their means would be penalized by paying more into the pot.

John

Yes John what you say is true...however that philosophy is open to interpretation....where I differ from the average socialist is that I believe everyone should receive their fair share but on the other hand also contribute and pay their fair share....along with that contribution comes responsibility....a system only works if people are not greedy and are honest to each other and to the system where the weak are looked after and nobody gets greedy.....sadly basic human nature has an inbuilt greed factor and a competitive instinct to outdo... nothing wrong with that if it is controlled and tempered....that said folk would soon come around if they realised that the system was as fair as could be obtained and everyone was treated fairly. It is all about social justice.
Under a fair socialist cooperative system the small benefits that some might obtain are just a small drop in the ocean compared to the huge difference in the share of wealth enjoyed by only a few under a capitalist society. For example I know guys who are lazy...that should never be rewarded...I also know guys who can graft all day and do things better, quicker and more efficiently than most others.....they should be rewarded but not to the extent that the gap is irrational.
Personally I think it obscene that a pop star who can barely sing in tune or a football player kicking a ball about can earn millions. Meanwhile a nurse who works long hours, saves lives on a daily basis who makes IMO a more valuable contribution to society is paid a pittance in comparison....that on its own is IMHO enough of a reason to reject and declare capitalism as corrupt and evil....
I see nothing wrong with small businesses and people actually making a small profit....but there comes a point when big businesses with excessive profits bleeds the country dry and does not give anything back in return. The recent collapse of Greece and now perhaps Italy almost certainly to be followed by Spain and Portugal plus a few other European states is proof enough that capitalism is not working. Perhaps if the big business played by the rules and the politicians stood up to them and made the rules less one sided then things might be fairer.....but I doubt that will ever happen when so many politicians are corrupt and have vested interests in these companies.
Interesting discussion..... I apologise for stealing the thread and harping on about a subject I am more than passionate about......but if it gets people thinking about the injustices in our present system then maybe some good will come out of my rants.
Ignorance and apathy are our enemies...sadly whilst a lot of people have an opinion on what they want from a government most people in the UK cannot even be bothered to vote....and most of those who do vote have no idea what they are voting for....perhaps they deserve what they get....and get what they deserve.....crooks.

Sorry guys double post.

"where I differ from the average socialist is that I believe everyone should receive their fair share but on the other hand also contribute and pay their fair share....along with that contribution comes responsibility....a system only works if people are not greedy and are honest" - Jim

"Responsibility" and "honesty" are two key words for any system of government to work.

John

Honesty!??? Where? Who?...How Many? Oh,,,that little?

No wonder!

Would have to pull the plug on many people if just wanting honest people to be around for things to work beautifully. Imagine, the song speaks of such things. Ahhh,,nice song.

Better odds would be to have a number 1 song in the world!

Sad. I know. People! They're The Worse!

When I was in high school I had one great teacher. He was also the track coach. He taught a course in Civics. I don't think he had a political agenda, but he did describe something called a natural monopoly". The idea is really just common sense and good citizenship. There are some things so common to us all that they need to be managed for the good of all. Air, water and energy was studied in class. If he taught the class today, he might include health care. The idea is that these most fundamental and essential necessities of life should not be subject to the marketplace. The only entity that can ensure that no one is taking advantage of others is the government. Free enterprise is a great concept but it cannot be unbridled. And it isn't. Completely free enterprise would allow companies to make and sell harmful things. So when you hear someone preach "Just get the government off our backs and everything will be fine", you are hearing something that is thoughtless.

I am moving back to Oregon from Texas in December where I will get my energy and water from the Eugene Water and Electric board, the largest non profit co-op in the nation. My water and energy bills will drop to a third of what they are here in Texas. The people who run it are elected public servants in the best sense of the word. The employees are well paid (a lineman gets about $35 and hour), are friendly, helpful well trained, and run programs to make every home energy efficient. It is the best example of public servants doing the public good. It is a model that should be studied. It recognizes that it is a monopoly and so it's charter is very careful to be responsible and not predatory. Remember Enron? That evil entity was the opposite of EWEB. That was a corporation. Defend it or not, corporations are the most likely candidate for the new tyranny. And if what Brian says is true, that corporations are us, then we have nothing to fear but ourselves.

You're right Johnny, in a way. What controls the weather? The Sun.
So the Sun controls the world.

I'm a little curios. How many of us are willing to sell all of our meager possessions and move to those other countries described in this thread? (And I"m aware that some on this forum are from those countries but I can't speak for them). Would we be able to be independent songwriters? Would we be able to have our own music related businesses? Not sure, just askin. Personally, I would rather live in a country where I had at least a "chance" of financial success than a country where I was limited in what I could make. Assuredly there are problems in any society on earth right now. I'm also curious about the continued slavery in this country. Someone tell me one country in the world where everyone has not only the right, but the distinct possibility to be free from anyone ever telling them what they can or can't do. If not getting all the "breaks" everyone else gets is slavery I don't get it. Equality isn't that you get everything I have no matter the situation. Equality is you have the same opportunity I have to get what I have and vice versa.

And I know this is another one of those threads where we won't solve it on a forum.

Steve

Big Jim that hymn was written by a "former" slaver who changed the way he lived. He gave the glory to God for that change. Are you saying because he saw the error of his slaving ways and made a change he makes religion hypocrisy?? I'm not following that.

Steve

Steve equality is a delusion as is the hope that you will amass wealth....you know as well as me that freedom and equality and wealth very much depends on which side of the tracks you are born. Now countries where you would not have anyone controlling you or telling you what to do do not exist.....unless of course you are a billionaire where you tell everyone what to do.
Now the Christian thing I do not get.....I have read and studied the bible......please tell me anywhere where Jesus supported or adopted Capitalism.....cause I can tell you a few places where he declared that capitalism is evil....and adopted measures straight from any socialist manifesto.
Considering the content of both Matthew 6:24 "You cannot serve both God and wealth"
and Acts 4:32...says it all.
I'd say Jesus was a socialist. Too bad some religious folk love possesions too much to actually practice what they preach and follow the teachings of the bible. That is what I mean by hypocricy.

Jim my response regarding the writer of Amazing Grace was simply a reply to this comment of yours.....

"It is interesting that the great Hymn you mention was written by a slaver...just further shows the hypocrisy of religion."

I wasn't getting into any "Christian thing". If, say a criminal, were to come to a realization that their crimes were wrong and take positive measures to change their ways. Forget religion. Then they wrote a book or an article espousing the life change they went through, would that mean that they were hypocritical law abiding citizens??

YES! How did I miss that,,,for I always look at that thing and think about "all>,,,,Now where is everything?> I can;t see!

YES,,,I stand corrected,,,The SUN controls the world!

Now, what controls the Sun? The Milky Way! Then the Universe! Then,,,,

I'll take the Sun!

Depends on if they practice what they preach........I was just pointing out that many so called Christians live a lifestyle that completely contradicts what the bible teaches. That in anyone's book is hypocrisy.
A Christian Capitalist is an example of an oxymoron....and is about as different and far removed from any kind of TRUE Christianity as communism is so far removed and different when compared to true socialism. Two completely different beasts with two completely different agendas.
Just heard on the news that the Italian prime minister is stepping down......the country is all but bankrupt.....they also will need to be bailed out.....another capitalist country proving that their system is too corrupt to work....and who will bear the cost of this bailout......fellow capitalists, or Italy's own big businesses?....no chance....as usual the poor working man will suffer for things he had no part or say in and pay for the mistakes of capitalists.

But that's not what you said Jim. You used John Newton as an example of hypocrisy in religion. There were no qualifying words like "depends" in your previous statement. At any rate, I'm sure we can all find hypocrites in any segment of society on any continent at any time in history. It's part of our nature. Even John Newton felt that way and that's why he titled his hymn amazing "grace". As to all the other stuff about capitalism or all the ins and outs of history you all are now way above my paygrade. I don't think I did that well in History class. Onward............

John Newton fascinates me. As a young man, he was enslaved on an English naval ship, and all sorts of terrible things happened to him. Apparently, almost all of the information we know about the atrocities of slave ships comes from John Newton's accounts of them. A few months ago, I wrote a song about him. Seems appropriate to post it here!

Can't Get Enough of Your Sweet Sound

I listened to your song for years
Not understanding through deaf ears
Until the day I could finally hear
Here's to you John Newton...for turning it around

CHORUS
Now I can't get enough of your sweet sound
Can't get enough of your sound

If Amazing Grace could save a wretch like you
Maybe it can save one such as me
Like you, I once was blind
But now I try to see

And I can't get enough of your sweet sound
Can't get enough of your sound

Through many dangers, toils and snares
You taught of one who truly cares
Who always stops to answer prayers
Here's to you John Newton...you were so profound

CHORUS
Now I can't get enough of your sweet sound
Can't get enough of your sound

If Amazing Grace could save a wretch like you
Maybe it can save one such as me
Like you, I once was blind
But now I try to see

And I can't get enough of your sweet sound
Can't get enough of your sound

Way back in seventeen forty eight
You lived those words that still write my fate
Your story proves it's not too late
Here's to you John Newton...you still astound

CHORUS
Now I can't get enough of your sweet sound
Can't get enough of your sound

If Amazing Grace could save a wretch like you
Maybe it can save one such as me
Like you, I once was blind
But now I try to see

And I can't get enough of your sweet sound
Can't get enough of your sound

Ending
Here's to you John Newton....you've heaven bound!
And I can't get enough of your sound

(c) 2011 Lisa Gundling

My four grandkids control the world apparently. At least mine. I'm a non paid baby sitter and it's according to my kid's schedules, not mine. LOL

Stevie

LOL Little stevie b I'm with you. My grandkids do the same.

My grandaughter is too young for that NOW....but I can see that coming shortly...meanwhile my sons and daughter provide the fuction of controlling my world....I am an unpaid taxi driver, lending bank with no interest rates or repayments, and general handyman fixing all the things that go wrong in their lifes. Oh for the days of my dotage when they have to look after me......LOL

Jim
You are so wrong. Socialism at its worst is what destroyed Greece's economy. Share the wealth philosophy, not paying taxes and Laziness is what did them in.
They had 50% of the people on the government payroll and most of them didn't pay taxes. 60% of female college grads work for the Government.
They could retire at 50 with almost 100% pay. Elaborate health care plans and entitlement programs.
They had to borrow money to pay themselves and they did it until they borrowed themselves into bankruptcy.
Now they (the people) are rioting because the Government is having to cut back on it lavish social agenda. They are rioting against themselves. The workers were the capitalists not the corporations.
It wasn't pure socialism but it was damn close. It certainly wasn't capitalism.

Actually those percentages are way high for direct public sector jobs. but when you include the jobs done by private sector paid for by public funds they get close.

"Oh for the days of my dotage when they have to look after me......LOL"

You mean the nursing home Big Jim?

John

"Oh for the days of my dotage when they have to look after me......LOL"

Amen to that Big Jim.

No Bill corruption is what did them in......the flaws you are talking about are not socialist policies....at no time has Greece ever been a true socialsit country despite having a government who claimed to be socialist it was in fact almost a dictatorship.....you forget on the other hand that it was capitalist greed that has brought the world to its knees because of the lack of control we had with those greedy bankers and companies who refuse to pay any taxes.
The question I would pose is where has all the trillions of lost pounds and dollars gone?...how they have been taken out of the system...someone must have all that cash in numbered bank accounts?

Here are a few facts as I see them in response to the original question:

1. The people who rule the world are the intelligent, educated, aggressive ones who were fortunate enough to have been born into a situation where they can excel.

2. Corporations are just groups of people organized to run a business to make money for their stockholders and themselves, often led by those from 1.

3. Corporations are in competition with other corporations and as such will do whatever the law allows to further their interests.

4. Therefore, the government must make rules, or unfettered competition will cause corporations to do nasty stuff.

5. Therefore the government is the problem when nasty stuff happens.

6. The government is elected and directed by the people in our worlds.

7. People do what they think benefits themselves first and elect those who they think will take care of them. They are led by the media to vote for people based on issues like abortion and religion which should not be directed by the government.

8. Therefore, we (and Occupy Wallstreet types) have only ourselves to blame.

People and organizations that do not pay taxes are mostly using incentives created by the government to direct investment where they (in their infinite wisdom) think it should go. An example would be interest on home loans being tax deductible. There are thousands of tax rules and regs that have come about that way.

The masses are generally uneducated and do not do what is best for the country. For example, they want cheap crap from China and don't make the connection that the economy is crashing because local workers have no jobs because all the work is done in Asia so Asia reaps the benefits. The government does not have the balls to increase tariffs on imports because people would complain when their TV, car, smartphone, Walmart item, etc. increases in price.

Nobody would care what happens in the Middle East if they did not have most of the oil. (If Cuba had oil wells, our policy toward Cuba would change in a heartbeat.)

The defense industry is a huge part of the economy. If there were no conflicts or wars, hundreds of thousands of people would be out of work and thousands of companies would be out of business. No politician has the guts to make peace.

Lawyers and our legal system have a stranglehold on government and cause hugely detrimental unintended consequences. Awarding millions of dollars in frivolous lawsuits (McDonalds spilled coffee for example) causes huge repercussions like "duty to warn". The vast majority of US politicians are lawyers who have no clue about many of the issues. Government should be comprised of people from all walks of life including engineers, scientists, economists, teachers, physicians, etc. (no musicians though!).

Colin's election platform (no he does not want to be elected!).....

1. Eliminate the practice of allowing lawyers to work for a percentage of the settlement. Make the client pay by the hour or job.

2. Impose a tariff on imports and apply the revenue to the general fund replacing an equal amount of income tax revenue.

3. Replace the existing tax system with a flat tax that generates the same revenue.

4. Bring the troops home from Afghanistan and any other un-winnable battlefields.

5. Require that voters have a minimum of a high school education.

6. Cut the budget of overgrown bureaucracies in half (EPA, OSHA, many others)

7. Improve our education system so that it is tough, demanding and rewarding. Do not pander to the crybabies whose kids are troublemakers and/or lazy. The world will belong to those who have the best education in the long run and it ain't us.

8. Put criminals in very uncomfortable jail cells (dungeons?) and leave them there. Make the streets safe again.

Folks,
I have finally figured out who controls the world. It is either the Weather, the Sun, Big Jim or me. So take your pick, but not with a Pick-Axe.

If only I did control the world...it would be a far better place......LOL

Colin whilst I agree with a lot of what you say...... to blame only ourselves for the worlds ills is wrong.....it is a bit like just blaming the police for ALL crimes committed.......simply because they cannot catch the criminals......They are not the ones who commit the crime. Same with blaming the government for not bringing out policies to stop big companies from doing immoral things....never ending circle of one trying to outdo the other will never work......
To impose huge import taxes surely goes against a free market, free enterprise, supply on demand and other basic capitalist ideology...in other words you cannot have your cake and eat it.....if capitalism truly works then no need to fear cheap imports......free market and all that.
Sadly capitalism does not work..it has been tried for thousands of years and has left a wake of death misery and despair with the gap between rich and poor ever widening...there is no quick fix other than to have state ownership and cooperatives.......no greedy shareholders or corrupt board looking for ways to maximise profit for minimum expense....and take from others what is not rightfully theirs.
I agree in sentiment that too many stupid people vote for the wrong candidates cause they have no understanding of what they are voting for....but to deny the vote is very wrong......remember women died for the right to vote.......slaves had no vote....and in some other countries folk have never been able to vote at all....or the voting system is rigged. NO do not throw the baby away with the bathwater.....a better education is what is needed....plus politicans who try to do the best for the people they represent not just look after themselves and a handful of their cronies.

Aw,
Careful there Edinburgh Washerwoman. You are forgetting Pandora's Box. And, one guy tried to straighten out the World, and you know what they did to him! Capitialisim Doesn't Work? Now where would all those people get the money to put all those Groceries on the shelves? You do use groceries, don't you? Well just stop using the system and you will solve that problem! Wow, state ownership will solve the problem? First the Soviet Union and now Greece? Real good examples. But we still love you Edinburgh Washerwoman, in spite of things people are saying about you.

Jim,

You make some good points.....there are some problems that come with capitalism. But you are talking to someone who has been to China, away from the big showplace cities, and who has been to Russia, including Siberia, and who has been to East Germany, plus a number of third world countries, and believe me, they are no substitute for the West. It is not perfect in Edinburgh or Florida but it is light years ahead of the places I mentioned.

Colin

Colin I have also been to some terrible places.....believe me.....and the colour of politics does not matter one jot.....extreme deprivation and poverty happens under all administrations whether communist or capitalist or most other isms.....just to clarify for the benefit of Ray who is hard of thinking.....none of the communist countries you mention Ray are true socialist they are just corrupt dictatorships....socialism has never been tried or given a chance....Ray when you talk about groceries on shelves you assume that ALL people have the means to buy them......try telling that to the parentless street urchins in some of the capitalist countries I mentioned in an earlier post....or do they not count as worth bothering about in your perfect world of greed....as long as you are OK.....stuff everyone else...now that IS capitalism....and one reason I could never support it.....
I have to adopt the attitude when in Rome and if you cannot beat them join them to get by...but it still does nothing to change my morals, ideals and philosophy.

I've lived in a socialist country until my age of 15, since the introduction of political pluralism and "democracy" in the republics of ex Yugoslavia and I can say for sure: there were issues, problems, there was a lot of things that needed to be solved, but life in general was much better, people were much happier, there was nobody starving, the health care was assured, people could live from their work, everyone could afford to get a decent education... I remember when I was a small kid I used to live in Novi Sad, now a part of Serbia, which is one of the biggest cities there. We'd travel by a city bus and meet foreign students on the bus, people who were coming from Africa and other places to get an education there, we used to be proud that these people will remember how they were welcomed and how they got their education when they go home to their countries and try to improve the lives of the people there. Many of these people met their future partners and got married and stayed to live in Yugoslavia. My mother's doctor is originally from Ghana and now he's a mayor of a small town in Slovenia called Piran. Nowadays it's absolutely unsafe for an African or a Roma person to take a walk in Zagreb or Belgrade, a year or so ago there was a scandalous attack on gay people in the city of Split, and on the Gay Pride march in Belgrade.
People in the last twenty years have become utterly intolerant to any "different" people, due to the wars and erupting nationalism in all the countries that formed the ex Yugoslavia. The quality of life has decreased immensely, many people are on the edge, there's no middle class left, there's only those who are very rich and those who are struggling to survive. We used to have no serious crime in the urban areas, now we have city's controlled by mafia and skin head gangs.
I know that the political position of ex Yugoslavia was way different then the rest of the so called socialist countries and I'm not here to defend any form of dictatorship. I'm a devoted anarchist and I believe any form of political border is enslaving it's population and creating injustice, but what I wanted to say with this post is that many people are full of prejudice about the left-wing politics, most of which have nothing to do with the idea of these politics but with the personal characteristics of those who have claimed through history they were trying to implement those ideas to practice. There's nothing wrong with having free medical care, education and system that takes care of those who are in need of support, it just needs a proper public control not to get hijacked by the politicians and greedy businessmen.

Some people will always see the glass half empty and others will always see it half full and no amount of explaining will help.

Most people are doing something they think will help someone eles, with the best of intentions. There is a saying, Freedom is not free. Someone has to sacrifice somewhere. If you got something for free, someone else had to provide it. Most of us have no problem with welfare and gladly give. One description of left wing politics is always the need for someone else to provide the product. For many, that get's old after a while. All you have to do is look at Greece as an example of Left Wing Socialist Policies. And, it was all done with the best of intentions. Over here, our esteemed left wing policitians decided everyone could buy a house, weather thay could pay for it or not. Because of that failure, the whole world took a tumble because of investments worldwide. If civility has gone down in Croatia it is because of big Scoial Policies other places that is the culprit. The Housing Bubble caused a large part of it. But people will still see the glass half full or half empty.

The time of the greatest public expenses and the time they got deepest in their debts for Greece was the last ten years, of which left wing was in power since the last year, when it was already obvious that the country was so deeply in trouble that the newly elected socialist government couldn't, actually. do much to save it. They inherited billions € debts and the empty treasury from the right-wing government that was in power since the year of 2000.

It matters not what system you put in place, the intelligent, educated, aggressive leaders will rise to the top and the uneducated, or less intelligent, or lazy followers will sink to the bottom - socialist, communist, capitalist, flock of seagulls, herd of elephants. It is natural selection at work.

All this talk and all this chatter
Some speak wisdom some the latter (i.e. chatter)
Though man controls a certain part
It's God who gave the earth it's start
And though we've made a mess of things
Through greed and ego lies and sin
He's in control He's always been
So there's my answer minus spin!

Colin I don't think that always applies. It didn't happen in the recent happenings in the middle east where people overthrew multiple governments, unless you're saying that in each of those incidents they were simply puppets of some rich, smart and aggressive people?? There are times when the "people" rise and successfully make a change, even if it's only temporary. The British with all their intelligence, might and aggressive power were not able to take control of a little band of pilgrims when this country started. It may happen sometimes but there are exceptions.

Steve