JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Musician Message Forum Rally To Support Gibson Guitars

I ran across info on this on the Instapundit site this evening.

Sat., Oct, 8 two to four p.m. there will be a rally and concert to support Gibson in the parking lot of the Scoreboard Restaurant (near Opryland) in Nashville.

Organized by citizens and organizations concerned by the raids at Gibson.

Info at GibsonRally@gmail.com

Well I wish I could be there. I would even bring my Gibson!

Why should folk rally to others who break the law?
Now if Gibson have NOT broken the law and are being victimised by these raids then they should get a decent team of lawers to file complaints against those who raided without proper reason.
OK Gibson make great great guitars....but do not let that cloud the issue of them using illegal materials....let the courts and due legal process decide.

Jim,

They are not using illegal materials. They are using the very same materials Martin, Taylor, Guild, and other companies use. There is nothing different about what they are doing. It is purely political.

MAB

Just another example of too damn much Government in our lives.

The team of lawyers are still trying to get some answers for the raid in 2009 that has not been answered for or their inventory that was confiscated. The agents told the owner, if he would "move his operation to Madagascar all of this would "go away."

Interestingly the justice department is stalling on any answers at all.

MAB

Marc is right on the money. It is a political move to destroy yet another great american company and move jobs out of the USA to further weaken our economy. No one has proven that Gibson did anything wrong or illegal. This is all threats and bullying because they are a large manufacturer. Inventories confiscated with no due process of law, merely a regulatory agency who is flexing its muscle to prove a point. You ain't seen nothing yet!!

Rob

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/278379/gibson-raid-much-fret-about-pat-nolan

Here's an article about the Gibson raid.

They are using the exact same materials as all the other companies. However, while I side with Gibson on the subject, the government obviously believes that gibson is using illegal materials. Which means, all the other companies are too. It doesn't make it any less illegal if all the other people are doing it too. It just means that they aren't getting in trouble for it. It is, for sure, purely political. I think the whole thing is just a big silly mess.

The materials AREN'T Illegal. They aren't endangered. There is not one thing in either of these catagories. It is an attack on a Non-Union company. It has absolutley nothing to do with illegality or endangered species. That has not even been alleged. The problem with this is that there are no charges of illegality. That is what is so frustrating with the legal team of Gibson.

This is 100% political.

MAB

I hope this rally is in the thousands. And they should carry signs and protest the Fish and Game Offices where ever they are. If the (Idiots) can protest Wall Street then protest Fish and Wildlife as well. And, if there was a case to be made against Gibson, it should have been filed by now. There isn't.

After reading through a couple of articles, this has got to be one of the strangest cases I've seen. The materials are fine, but the US Government says it should have been "finished" in India??? ... and the Indian Government isn't complaining???

If I was President, I would be finding out who started all this and suggest that we should be protecting US companies -- except when they are actually breaking laws.

You hate to see scenarios where you find out that a branch of government has almost "absolute" power, because it is always corrupted.

Kevin

Kevin,

It started in HIS department of Justice. He doesn't have to look far.

MAB

Marc if ALL the companies are using the same wood then they are all breaking the rules.......Like speeding just because most people do it does not make it legal.

If it is political and they are being singled out then Gibson have due law processes to sort that out.

If the law is wrong or being interpreted wrongly then due law process can sort that out also.

One thing for sure international laws protecting our flora and fauna should not be flouted just to make a few guitars.

Now correct me if I am wrong but the countries producing the wood have created laws to protect their livelihood IE the production of exotic lumber...and protect their industries......EG the wood has to be processed and finished by their own craftsmen rather than allowing just the raw materials to be stripped. I see nothing wrong with this especially as America has similar type laws where they tax imports in an attempt to protect their own industry by forcing people to buy American rather than allow cheaper foreign imports. I see no difference but it would appear that some right wingers want to have it both ways. They want to protect American industry but deny other countries that same right of protecting their own.

You are right as always Jim .There is no problem. It is just a bunch of "right wingers making noise."

Thanks for pointing it out for us. Your understanding of this country is always interesting.

MAB

The problem with liberals is they want the conservatives to make all their toys for them, give them for free and pay them to take them! Right, Big, Uhhah? Big, Uhhah, if you are going to bitch about the system, stop using the system!

The problem at Gibson, is it is all Politics. There is going to be an election about a year from now, this thing won't get solved until then, but the bad publicity from this little flap is only driving more nails in the coffin of the "Annointed one".

No more toys for you, Big Uhhah.

Gibson has lawyers on the case, and I expect they will get their day in court.

The problem is (and we in Canada have similar issues)that law enforcement acts quickly while justice moves at a glacial pace, and government has a hard time admitting they are wrong.

Add to this that media is not making this a big case (I love the fact that US citizens are camping out on Wall Street, getting pepper sprayed etc, protesting at Wall Street has done...and the protest is spreading to other cities, but mainstream media does not care...wonder why???) and the result is that people's voices are lost in the wind.

So by all means, all artists should make noise, get the attention of the media, Nashville, go on strike!!! That will get their attention.

No more music until Gibson's cased is sorted out..

Get the Nashville publicists organized and get the message out.

John,

That is exactly what they are doing. As far as a "strike" Geeze, are you kidding? Anyone that went on strike here would have five thousand people taking their jobs or slots. Strikes don't exist in this world.

But most of the town is up and arms. Most of the other manufacturers are staying out because they know they will be next.

MAB

Ray, I don't want to turn this into a political debate, but the problem is not Republican vs Democrat...the problem is bad government period...

If you are familiar with the statistics, the American middle class has been gutted..and it has been perpetrated by both parties. And if you understand history and economics, you NEED a healthy middle class for a country to function effectively.

The problem is that no one represents their interests, and they have always been far too busy earning a living to organize themselves.

So don't play the Republican vs Democrat card here. They are equally at fault for the state of the union.

Yeah,
It is cute that those ???? are protesting on Wall Street. Talk about biting the hand that's feeding you! Activist's come and go. The reason they don't get any traction is because no one really disagrees with them but most people are annoyed with such outbursts. We did have Woodstock, didn't we? Most of those people are now regular folks in the mainstream of life, reflecting back on a great idea that, uh, was nothing new.

It sometimes takes an outsider to see the failings of someone else. Being an insider and seeing the American way can make you short sighted as to what some of the big companies are trying to get away with. Gibson was obviously trying to bend rules to get their wood in the back door and were found out. OK some of the other companies do the same and were not raided...perhaps they should be....call it politics if you like. But questions should be asked to clarify exactly why this did not happen and why Gibson was made the exception and raided. As I said before they have lawyers who should do their job and action then taken against anyone who acted improperly.
What I find puzzling and totally bizarre is that people can be biased and side with Gibson without knowing the proper facts. This is taking patriotism far too far....perhaps a common failing. I do not think I need say any more on the subject.

The problems for me are:
a) the methodology used -- gestapo storm troopers -- when a simple knock on the door with a few federal agents and a bunch of inspectors would have sufficed.
b) the seeming lack of due process (14th amendment) used in cases like like this where everything can be confiscated and kept -- sort of guilty until proven innocent, the exact opposite of our supposed justice philosophy.
c) The seeming limitless powers the fed agencies have in this case. If we let them do this to Gibson, then next it will be us citizens. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I got it. So the FBI thinks they're making cupcakes in there huh? I'm pretty sure they can't just raid a building because they don't like which party you donated to in the election. But that explains why it's Gibson they have a problem with and not the rest of the companies....They didn't walk in there with smiles on their faces, saying, hey ya'll...how ya doin? ... we just want to hang out for a little bit. We don't think you're doing anything wrong at all. Gibson is obviously doing things the government doesn't like, illegal or not. Those are some people you probably don't want to piss off. I have a couple buddies that work over there. They got to go home early that day...which was good, because we wrote us a good one that day, and it wouldn't have happened if the raid hadn't occurred.

If this is was really the case what does that say? That Indian workers had to make the fretboards? How would that work? Gibson ships the necks to India so the Indian workers can fit the fretboard to the neck?
It's not enough that we outsource millions of jobs to India now we can't even have an American Company build their own product?

The rest of the world can kiss my rosey red ass as far as I'm concerned. Big Jim thinks we tax foreign countries to eliminate competition? You have got to be smoking something very illegal if you believe that. If that was true every item in the local store wouldn't be made in China. You can't even buy a doggy rawhide made in USA. Nothing is made here any more. It makes me sick what our Congress has allowed to happen to this country. On second thought it makes me sick what we have allowed our congress to do to this country. If it was up to me we'd put a tariff on every product that came into this country in the amount equal to the wage difference between us and them. For China that would be about 1200 percent for India about 1600 Percent. I'd eliminate all corporate taxes on any new company manufacturing products in the USA for ten years. After that corporations would be taxed the same as ordinary citizens.

Kevin I agree 100%.....As I have stated on several occasions re this subject I feel that Gibson deserve a full explanation of exactly why this happened and an apology if they are indeed innocent....they also should be prosecuted if found guilty. No company no matter how cute their product should be above the law. I am afraid that some people may be siding with and judging Gibson by the quality of their product not on what actually went on.
America brags that it has a fair legal process and justice system...therefore the truth should come out and anyone who broke rules or laws, either the gestapo who raided or Gibson themselves will be dealt with.
To think that a company is being victimised just because they support a particular political party is preposterous. However if that is indeed the case then the good old USA is even more corrupt that I could possibly imagine.
Yes presumed innocent until proved guilty is paramount to any justice system....BUT more dangerous is declaring and accepting someone as innocent without knowing the full facts when they could be guilty.
It would not be the first time and it certainly will not be the last time that some high profile supposedly ethical company broke laws to make a buck.
This case reminds me of the protective mother whose precious son has been caught doing something blindly defending his innocence and refusing to accept his guilt even when he has been caught red handed.

Edit..... here is a link that reports the story....
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903895904576542942027859286.html
Even for those who side with Gibson it does show that Gibson may have, albeit unwittingly, imported wood that was mislabelled.
I am of the opinion that we should not support Gibson or pass judgement till ALL the facts are on the table.

I completely agree with Big Jim

Justice, that is the question. To have justice or not have justice. Some of you may remember the Duke, Lacrosse Rape case.

A couple or so years ago the Lacross Players at Duke University had a party of which a black girl was involved some how.

One of the black girls accused one more of the guys of rape. However it was proved that the player in question was at a ATM Machine at the time the rape was supposed to have happened. The ATM Machine records video of the trsnsactions and time of the transaction. But the Prosocuter, after all the evidence proved the Duke player innocent the prosocuter refused to drop the case and it lingered for some time before it was all settled and dropped. You can probably look it up.

Just because someone is accused of something don't make it so.

This travesty smacks of pro-union cronyism... very similar to the Boeing Plant deal in South Carolina. Our current administration is getting very good at following the tactics of the National Socialist Movement in Germany. Find a purported violation of some arcane law and use it to bully the company or entity in question into submission.

November of 2012 can't arrive quickly enough. If we don't rid ourselves of these liars and wealth redistribution zealots... America will become a wasteland... and the world we live in will not be able to escape the "black hole" of tyranny and political greed.

Looking out over the crowds of demonstrators in New York who have aligned themselves against Wall Street... it does not take long to observe the vast majority of them are unshaven fools. Hell bent on nothing more than creating anarchy before retreating to their gay bars and social atmospheres. It's all about hidden agendas... and our liberal press is ecstatic.

We are in a world where the charges are the only thing remembered. Press tainting is rampant and the things mentioned by Dave here are only a few of the examples of what is going on in this country. Taken alone, a case might be made for knee jerk reactions. As "one more example" of many going on right now in this country, it is evidence of something much larger.

MAB

Well said Dave I nearly laughed myself silly at your sarcasm it puts the whole right wing silyness into perspective.....sad thing is that some brain dead political bigots actually believe in what you said and would treat it as a serious statement.

Jim, old friend... sorry you took my statement as only sarcasm. I suppose that I am one of those brain-dead-bigot-right-wingers when it comes to defending the freedom we enjoy in this country.

As I recall, we had to reclaim it in 1776 from the folks near your border with whom you guys in Scotland have been railing against for all these years. (No, I am not advocating revolution against England... a country I have come to respect greatly, just as I respect Scotland, Ireland and Wales... I simply advocate voting and campaigning hard for that in which you believe.)

Dave I interpreted your remarks as sarcasm because they were too preposterous to be anything else.

1. Boeing DID break labour laws so were quite rightly brought to justice. FYI these laws were brought out to protect workers from the draconian measures some employers would impose.

2. The National Socialist Movement in Germany are a bunch of extreme right wing, anti semitic, neo-Nazis and are about as far removed from socialists and socialism as you can possibly get.

3. Liars...well ALL politicians are liars...goes with the territory but historically the biggest liars have been from the conservative persuasion.

4. Wealth redistribution is wrong.....well take a look at the income of the top earners in this world against the bottom...then argue the justice of the huge difference.....you cannot either ethically or morally.

5. Protestors retreating to gay bars....well they have to go somewhere. That said in my experience the most likely candidates to frequent gay bars are the middle and upper classes. Do not forget I have been in the music industry for over 40 years....I have come across many gays and sexual deviants...most are right wing politicians or middle to upper class from a public school background.

6. Liberal press...well from what I have read the American press is anything but liberal....they are pretty right wing IMO.

7. Enjoying freedom.....well from what I have seen and heard of your country freedom is only applicable to those who can afford it and it does not come cheap.

The rich in this world are rubbing their hands with glee when some people support them because they cannot see the wood for the trees. Excuse the pun.

Ya Know Folks,
We need good Management and good Labor. Without one the other is up the creek without a paddle, so to speak. Lots of us want to be just a good worker and leave the "Driving" to someone else. I would rather be a worker than management. Now we have the best workers in the world. But, when they start trying to be managers, without good training things can go wrong pretty quickly.

Up above John says the middle class has been gutted. I don't know if that is true or not. True, the Unions are losing some of the gains they had for a long time. But you can also say it is just a correction to the system. If the system pays you an average of say 20 dollars an hour, you aren't going to get 30, except for a while and then you are going to revert to the system average, if you can get that. Nobody plans these things, it just happens.

Now Big Jim says Boeing broke the labor laws. Really? The U.S. Constution gurantees us the right to Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of Happiness. Boeing has every right to locate a plant in another state, of which is a Right To Work State. It's either that or next stop, India, China, etc. The problem, that hasn't been spelled out by anyone that I know of, is sometime in the future Boeing is going to close the Plant in Seattle and move everything somewhere else. It is a sign of the times.

That is why Automobile Manufactures have moved south. It's either that or somewhere overseas. You can't sell cars too high priced that nobody can afford.

Jim:

I can see that I have swayed you to change your mind on so many topics... LOL! At least you are passionate about your opinions and that is a healthy thing... as is my right to disagree with you.

I knew a rich man long ago. He had scratched his way from being a farmboy who delivered newspapers to his clients on horseback... to the top of a large corporation with thousands of employees. He never met a stranger and cared deeply for the wellbeing of his employees. When some of his people were held in Iran after the Ayatollah's revolution, he employed professionals to rescue them from prison and whisk them from the clutches of evil. The rest is history.

Part of the American dream includes the possibility of attaining wealth. Is that same dream no longer alive in Scotland?

Dave it is only a dream never a reality......capitalism is based on inequality where the many pay for the luxuries of a few. Whilst there are a few exceptions the rich do not care a jot for the poor. They do everything in their power to divide and conquer to gain more power and wealth....and guess who suffers?

I can understand how people think that if they support right wingers then some of the power and riches associated with these parasites rub off on them. That is the American dream so dream on......cause it will never be a reality.

To say you have freedom, justice and equality is sadly not a reality.....and probably never will.
Only those with plenty of money have these rights.
Just for the record the UK and just about every other country in this corrupt world operate to the same rules.

I nominate BILL ROBINSON for Pres, in 2012...

Bill, ya sure got MY vote, Amigo!

The US is now down to ONE maker of Grandfather Clocks...with very few sales since the Middle Class has very few Disposable Bucks these days.

And even-fewer JOBS to earn those fewer bucks-to-spend.

Best Wishes/Great Ideas there, Amigo,
Stan

LOL thanks a lot Stan. Just what I'd need, a bunch of left wing hypocrites poking around in my background digging up dirt. Well they better bring a back hoe and a dump truck, they would need it.

Unfortunately I really doubt anything I said would do any good.

Jim,

I'm sorry but your view of this country is utter nonsense. The majority of people in this country are pretty happy. They live their lives, they have decent places to live and very few just up and die in the streets because anytime someone does that, they are all over the 24 hour news services.

The majority of rich people in this country did not inherit money. They earned it themselves. Around 65-70% of millionaires came from nothing. There are problems with every country and this one, even with our political system has it's problems. But the whole "no justice, living in slavery is simply nonsense.

Sorry you have that view of this country. I get a little tired of people who are not here comment on the things they don't know continually. It is the reason I don't talk too much about my opinions of your country, which for the most part are pretty good.

Sorry but I get a bit frosted on this. My last post on this subject.

MAB

Marc, I know that you already know this, but I feel like I have to explain that Jim was born a socialist, raised as a socialist, and will die a socialist. No one can change his views. He has never lived in a truly free society and will never know what real freedom feels like as he has been taxed to the hilt every day of his working life and never enjoyed the real potential fruits of his labor because of his government.

There are none so blind as those who cannot see. Marc and Ben my comments are general and are meant for EVERY country including mine not just the USA in particular. I view your comments as just as ignorant as you view mine. As stated earlier.... capitalism is aimed at keeping the rich richer whilst the poor get poorer. If you cannot grasp that simple philosophy then you have a lot to learn. It is estimated that in the UK 10% of the population own and control over 84% of the wealth. I would imagine a similar statistic applies in most other places. Now I am no mathematician BUT even I can work out that someone is making too much whilst others too little and something is drastically wrong with such a system. Now if you support that some folk have more wealth than they can possibly spend whilst others in other parts of the world struggle to even put food on the table and many starve to death then that is your problem. I see it as morally wrong. Ben you are right I have never lived in a truly free society but NEITHER HAVE YOU. If you think that we both live in a truly fair democratic country then you are very wrong. As stated before freedom only applies to those who can afford it. We tend to forget about those who cannot as long as we ourselves are alright. Hiding your head in the sand only perpetuates the problem....and plays right into the hands of the people who REALLY control our countries and the world.
Now it is not your fault you have been indoctrinated into a society that holds false values...you know no better.

Humm,
Big Huhah, Marc lives here, Ben lives here, Tom lives here, I live here. We see and observe things close up. Unless you have spent several years here or in some other place you get most, if not all of your information from News Stories.

Maybe in the 1920's or 1930's your view of Capitalisim would be more correct but not today. We work on the Free Enterprise System, or used to. With all the Big Social Programs that have been put in place nobody goes without even to the detriment of a nearly 15 Trillion Dollar Federal debt.

And, after all these years of Big Social Programs, all failures by the way, there is a 9 to 17 percent unemployment rate,some 46 million on Food Stamps, 15 percent living below the Poverty Level, etc. To see how Socialisim has failed all you have to do is look at Europe. A basket case. There are no shortcuts to sucess. It has been tried. The wheels are coming off the wagon. Rome has burned to the ground, the Titanic has sunk. It is, a learning experence.

Ray from what you say it is capitalism and the so called free enterprise system that has failed. JFI we are no different from you...well maybe a tad more left wing but not that much to notice a difference.

It is not the welfare and food stamps that has caused the world chaos but unscrupulous big business and venture capitalists who have brought all our countries to their knees. In our country billions have been lost to tax avoidance and creative accountancy. Now we all have to pull in our belts to bail these blood suckers out. If only a fraction of the proper taxes were paid by these conglomerates then things would be almost back to normal. The penny pinching measures we all have to bear PALE into insignificance compared to how much money we are owed by those greedy hapless parasites.

Ben, what you are ignoring is that society is interdependent. Your "truly free" success stories, those who have "made it", stood on the accomplishments of others, and took others' accomplishments to the next level.

Yes they were bright, took initiative and deserve to benefit from their own ingenuity, but do not ignore the fact they use all that their society (in your cased the USA) built for them, and which was built and paid for by the taxes paid by everyone before them.

Good Morning... fellow Bar-room Barristers:

Don't ya just love an unwinable argument between friends and fools? (Yes, Teacher... I will write upon the chalkboard 100 times... "I will not resort to name-calling..." LOL!)

Big Jim... as one of those greedy hapless parasites... may I propose that I motor out to my personal aerodrome and fire up the Learjet for a quick flight to Edinburgh. We will settle our differences with a cow-pie throwing contest at twenty paces. The winner gets to buy the beverage of choice for the unfortunate target person. (If only such an event could take place... 'cause I'd really like to meet a real, live Socialist... especially one whose company I enjoy so much on-line.)

For once... I can agree with you on something. We in the United States are not a democracy. We do not get to participate in who gets nominated for political purposes... we only get to vote on those with the financial wherewithal to rise to the top. I have long proposed that we establish a blue-ribbon panel to select ten willing and qualified candidates for each and every office.

Instead of elections... we could spin the roulette wheel and that poor schnook whose number matches... gets to serve his or her country for the stated term of six or fewer years... then go home (without a golden parachute retirement) and become an ordinary citizen again. This would eliminate debates and media whoopla. (Maybe the networks would go broke... LOL!)

Hell, in time... this method would negate the need for political parties... possibly even unions... but surely not songwriters.

Finally, my last proposal would eliminate the Internal Revenue Service. No Income Tax Loopholes. Just the requirement that each and every individual and entity pay 10% of their legal income (or illegal for that matter) at tax time. No ifs, ands or buts about it. If the government could not survive on the proceeds, just reduce the size of government.

Now, back to the Gibson deal... I guess we will just have to wait and see how it all turns out... or until the Democrats are "turned out" in November of 2012... as they so justly deserve.

To the rest of you... may Pelosi be with you 'cause she sure as hell ain't stayin' at my place... LOL!

As a life long democratic voter (and Obama, too), I must admit that I will probably vote Republican this time around, IF (and it's a big IF) the 'pubs can actually nominate someone worth a hoot.

But in the end, term limits are really the only way to possibly fix our democratic election system. Two terms for president is OK (I guess), one consecutive term for senators and two consecutive terms for representatives (I don't think turning over the entire House every two years would work-- but who knows?). At the end of their time, they go back to civilian life with no U.S. pensions and no paid for -- anything! Term limits might reduce the power of lobbyists and special interests (at least until they figure out how to game the new system).

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

Kevin

Well Big Jim,
Our big experment with Socalisim began in the 1930's, before I was born. I don't know when it took hold in Europe. Now after all those years we are no better off than we were then. One difference is they didn't have a nearly 15 Trillion Dollar Federal Debt. The system should be working perfectly by now. So, I have to ask those mostly liberals and democrats, what happened? As you know European Countries are reverting back to more conservative policies and the people are up in arms over it. The problem is of course unstainable monetary systems. Translated the governments are out of money. Same here Jim. But you know that. You just want to scream and call names.

I had a buddy that had a saying about that. "WHEN IN DOUBT, RUN IN CIRCLES, SCREAM AND SHOUT" That's what those idiots are doing protesting on Wall Street. Now I'd like to blame all my troubles on Rich People, but I can't. After all they're the ones that are providing the jobs for us.Savvy, Big Jim?

I think Big Jim might be confusing the right and ability to earn a lot of money with the right to game our stupid Internal Revenue Tax system.
Eliminate the Internal Revenue Service and go to a flat tax. No loop holes. But there is a problem with that. You still have to have a way to determine NET income over GROSS income and that's where the loopholes come in.
And as former business owner I can assure you I could not have survived if taxes were based on gross. I suppose I could but I would have had to charge a lot more money for my services.
But I think it could be done if the business expenses were very tightly controlled.
But to say rich folks should share their money with poor folks is simply wrong.
Now to say those same rich folks should provide jobs for the poor folks might be ok.
In other words.....
YOU DON'T WORK...YOU DON'T EAT.

We also have the opposite here Big Jim.
We have folks who don't work and don't contribute any taxes who live pretty good.
I know some myself. They get food stamps, cash assistance, free health care. etc. One owns their home and just did a whole bunch of remodeling on the house. Paid for by, you guessed it, the Government. Where did the Government get the money to give these folks all this stuff. Well I suppose it was from the poor people who pay taxes. I really doubt any of Buffets money went to them.

Oh! those folks that get all that assistance from the Government. well they have jobs that pay cash. So they live pretty good. They can even afford cannabis. Isn't that nice.

Bill I agree...we have scroungers as well. I am all for making people work...a fair days pay for a fair days work...as long as the folk who legitimately cannot work like the disabled and elderly and infirm etc are well catered for. We have a National Health Service and a Social Security service that is the envy of the world...that said it has been bled dry and abused by those who take advantage rather than used as a safety net by those who truly need and deserve it.
I too am in favour of direct tax rather than the current making up your own numbers system and pay the government what you want to pay we both seem to have...but like you say it is kinda hard to enforce. I suspect that your country has a similar or even worse black market and grey economy than we do. These areas should be investigated and stopped with heavy penalties for the transgressors. We also have illegal immigrants and even legal immigrants coming out of our ears...they take our jobs cause they will work longer and for less, send most of their pay back home so it is not reinvested in our economy and they also work in this grey economy for cash in hand no tax or insurance etc for much less than minimum wage.
Now Bill you have come up with a brainwave...tax cannabis and other illegal substances....all our trouble will be over.
That said I still think that the gap between rich and poor in both our countries is unjustifiably way too wide....... needs reducing.
Just in case you think you were getting it all your own way with me agreeing to everything...I will say this.......we need unions and they need more power.......if it was not for unions we would not have health and safety laws....proper wages.......pension funds..... and they would still be sending kids into mines and up chimneys.....they probably still would if they could get away with it.

Big Jim
You're killin' me brother.

UNIONS. oh my oh my oh my

What have unions done for America. I was a union dude twice.
I quit

The good. Unions brought us out of the stone age, got rid of sweat shops and slave labor. Got us benefits and Pensions. Did a lot of good.

The bad. It got to the point in our union that I couldn't fire a person that sat on their ass and watched the rest of us work.
I could get rid of him but he'd just go to another union shop.

We got great wages. I'm mean great. In 1972 I was making $25.00 an hour with benefits for doing a job you could train a monkey to do. Well almost.

Today those same union guys are making about $65.00 per hour. Probably more.

I was on a big city fire department We were making 35 grand a year with unlimited health care and sick days and a great pension after twenty years. We worked about 80 days a year for that. Most us us had a second job.
And they went on strike because they weren't getting enough.

Today the Unions have driven our average wage up well over $20.00 and hour (on the check) plus benefits for manufacturing jobs.

China doesn't have all these great unions. The average factory worker in Southern China makes about $00.80 per hour. That's EIGHTY CENTS for what an American Union worker gets paid more than $20.00 per hour.
That's why we don't have any jobs. Thank you unions you have done wonders for us.

Why do you think Gibson has two lines of Guitars? Epiphone and Gibson. As do the other major Guitar makers.

An American made Gibson costs about 4 or 5 times what a comparable Epiphone costs.

I'll say it again. Those Wall street protestors are protesting the wrong people and place.

And for that we are most thankful!

-Hong Sun