JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Reason behind why you write Lyrics in Caps/varies here

Guys,

Some here type in Caps others not.

What is right when sending to publisher; lyric sheet; how do they expect it to be typed???

Feedback from those who have submitted demos to Publishers.

Petra

You have a publisher ?

Well done !

cheers, niteshift

They expect them to be typed with great lines! Who the font cares?

Johnny, funny,

But wanted to know what you guys came across as standard format?

Petra

I will go and check on the net and songwriting books. But in the mean time, wanted to know if you know the standard you have come across with publishers.

P.

If the lyrics are in all CAPs they are immediately burned in the ALL CAPS BURNING BIN. They never get read. All caps means bad, bad, bad. If you have a disability and find it hard to change case, use all lower case.

Seriously, all caps are harder to read than mixed case. Why make things even tougher than they already are? If I come across lyrics that are all caps, or are poorly spaced out or bizarrely written -- I move on without reading.

Kevin

Kevin,

Oh my stomach is hurting from laughing sooooo hard Kevin!!!

Caps Burning Bin eh, LOL No I don't have that disability or SENIOR MOMENTS but seen it done here in lyric forum that is why I ask.





Petra

Make it as easy to read as possible.
If you have one universal chorus just do it once and then type
"Chorus" on the next parts.

You don't have to put "V. or C. or Pre-Chorus 1, 2 or any of that. Make it VERY clear and easy to read.

Don't put "directions" on it. On duets, people always want to put "Male sings...." "Female sings..." They don't need that.

Unless you are doing something for a musician, don't bother with chord charts or notes.

On my lyric sheets I DO type the chorus ONLY in all capital letters. I also indent the chorus and and channels or pre choruses.

You want it to be as easy to read as you can:


WAITING ON HANK

She turned 21 in 1952, Wanda works the late shift
Caddilac pulls to the curb, the man come's strolling in
Here's the King of Country Music, pure white suit jet black trim
Orders up the ham and eggs, she can't believe it's him

Chorus
SHE'S WAITING ON HANK, LIVING HER LIFE
THROUGH A MOMENT FROZEN IN TIME
HOLDING OUT HOPE THE STAR IN HER EYES
SEE'S MORE THAN A SMALL TOWN GIRL
CATCHING HER BREATH, CHECKING HER HAIR
DOES SHE EVEN KNOW THAT SHE'S THERE
PRAYING TODAY, HE'LL TAKE HER AWAY
SHE'S WAITING ON HANK

You want them to have a sense of where the pauses are and how the rhythm of the lyrics go. If you put commas in there it can give a bit of a "breath space" and show the singer or publishers where it builds and contrasts.

But above all MAKE IT CLEAR.

MAB

The program here doesn't let me indent, but I did do that on the post.

MAB

Marc,

Great to have an example here!!! I will do mine like this from now on.


Thanks again for your advice.


Petra

Mornin' Gang:

Back in the late 80's someone posted a list of no-no's regarding internet etiquette. One of the items on that list chided users to never use all caps. It is akin to shouting... and is (or was)considered rude.

My belief is that Marc is right. I don't normally even identify the chorus. If the song is good enough, the A&R people just want to follow along with the words. Pauses can be emphasized by using spaces or period like dots and are effective. All of this was borne out at an early NSAI meeting I attended... and Marc (the guy who knows that stuff) has many friends at NSAI.

Good topic, Petra.

Dave,

The reason I do it is that some of the first songs I ever had recorded were through SONY music. When they typed up the lyric sheets and had it on their stationary, that is how it came back to me. I started doing it then.

But there is a reason to do it. It is called "Publisher's scan." When a publisher or artist is first looking down a lyric sheet, particuarly when they are going through a lot of songs, they like to see choruses that JUMP OFF THE PAGE at them. A big chorus is one of the things that sells a song. If there is a big identifiable chorus, it almost leaps off the page and get's your attention.

Songs always have to stand on their own and most of this stuff is just semantics anyway. But in a world of so much music, I think you use any edge you can get. I am sure like anything there are books and people that want to see it some other way. I just do it because it seems to work for me. And that is the way I have seen other people doing it with hit records.

MAB

Good enough advice, but I would make this observation---We have a whole lot of inexperienced or "beginning" writers come on the lyric boards---Now I'm not knocking anyone here, heck, my first lyrics rambled all over the place , but---
Some of the lyrics have --a varying number of lines everywhere, lines at all different lengths, the title-hook is scattered throughout the song, more than one section repeat, etc. --you don't know where to start for a critique, I usually just pass it by or ask them what's what, and that's all time consuming, it's really just prose--so--IMO it would help all around if "beginning" writers would label V --C-- Bridge-pre C etc-- Then folks could say--well, that doesn't really qualify for a bridge or a C should repeat etc etc until they learn a little structure, THEN they don't NEED to label them anymore, everyone can TELL what they are
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it
Wy

Wyman,

If you read the first part of the first post Petra did, she asked "How should you submit something to a publisher?" That is what I responded to. But the same principles should be enforced. What happens when people submit things for any sort of critique they need to make them as easy to read as possible. They should be very clear and should see that if they have sections that are too long, lines that are uneven, they are starting off wrong.

The only way to truly teach people is to start with the basics from the beginning. If you study hit songs, or those which garner public attention, which everybody SHOULD BE DOING in the first place, you will see a very distinct symmetry in all of them. That is what it takes to get all the way to the public and have what you do absorbed. If there are different structures that are hard to follow, cryptic sections that don't relate to anything else, it is going to be very hard for people to understand that, therefore, dropping the song to be listened to, to go on to something that does entice them.

All in the basics.

MAB

Hi Folks,

For what it's worth;

In the case of reading along with lyrics while listening to the song, I find it much easier on the eye to read normal case writing.

However, when printing out lyrics to work with in the studio, I tend to use upper case only, and I print the full chorus everytime, as well. As I always say: " The eyes are still fine.... it's the arms... they're getting too short!"

In other words, there's a reason why normal writing (in print) is 'normal'; it's the best way to do it. For any exception, there would have to be exceptional conditions, i.e. to be used as lyric sheet in dim lighted studio, or as form for doing your arrangements etc.

If there's different ways to do it, there's probably different reasons or objectives for doing it.

Great day, ev'rybody

Michael

OK,
TYPING HERE IN ALL CAPS DON'T LOOK SO GOOD. SEE? So nearly all the time I use lower case except where a captial letter is required.

However:
I have all my lyric sheets in Capitals because last time I heard, that's what most want. I use bold type for the Title of the song and all else regular setting. Font is 10.

14 for the studio, Ray... remember them arms... lol...

I think most important is that you use a font that is easily decipherable, and not too creatively expressive.

Michael

I do it MY WAYyyyyy....heh-heh!

(NOT that it's resulted in LOTS of Cuts..but, at least ya CAN tell which words ARE Emphasized & Which Aren't.)

Hooks/Titles..JMO, should ALWAYS be Capitalized. THAT's Your Song's "Calling Card". Hype It..or Die an Early-Death.

I DON'T go for ALL CAPS..(Even tho Nashcity's rumored to favor it)..because Hey, there ARE publishers in NY and L.A. and Branson and ALL OVER THE PLANET who DON'T Like "ALL Caps."

I DO like Choruses LABELLED and Ditto for PRE-s and BRIDGES. (Your "3-Minute Movie" then HAS some "Stage Directions" included with it/I think most SINGERS will appreciate your efforts when THEY read Your Lyric Sheets.) (& you should be pitching to THEM as well as to Publishers..JMO.)

Having done MOST of my Singing IN the Studio...I've found Capitalizing the First Letter of Major Words-to-be-Sung..makes it easier-to-read while recording-away. And....adding those Ellipses...is a good workable-way to indicate How The Lyric Scans..in your head.

Good Luck with Whatever Formatting Ya Use...It's the Actual WORDS ya use that make or break it.

Best Wishes & Big Hugs,
Stan

MikeB,
Could it be it is time for you to get glasses? Sometimes I use a larger Font if the song is short. It is best to get all the song on one page. If a Producer needs to make the lyrics larger they should have the tools to re-type it and make it larger.

Professionalisim, you know.

Couldn't agree more, Stan... The presentation should be clean and structured, but in the end what matters is if it's a good song, or not.

Ray... glasses... of course, glasses... why didn't I think of that lol

With today's means of distributing music, and lyrics, in the digital age we're living in, it's easier than ever to present your work in the most professional looking - and sounding - shape and form. The fact that we are actually thinking about this topic and exchange views, is best proof for our professionalism, in the first place.

Michael

Marc,
Easy to read should cover the whole shebang all right Marc
Wy

LOL, Ray, you come to right to the point. Maybe his glasses are broken or may he lost them in the chair or maybe the dog ran off with them?

Petra

Stan,

I have to say all caps is much harder to read and if you use red fonts, very hard to read. Black ink or type is best, notice some use color here. Hopefully they don't send colored type lyrics to publishers. They will throw it the Burning Can Marked, Another one Bites The Dust.


I think Marc knows best so I am sticking to what he said, he is in the trenches everyday, he should know.

Petra

It's the arms, really.... they're just too short.... the eyes are perfect!!!!

I believe you Mike, like your avatar.

The eyes are fine eh, hope you don't do any driving, you may end up in the ditch Like Mr. Bean. LOL

Petra

Some publishers request specific guidelines to typed lyric sheets, where to put copyright, your contact information, type of bond of paper and so on. If they don't specify, then I will do what Marc said.

Petra

Petra,

Again, my process comes from working with writers and publishers who have had the hits. I simply do what they do. In my verses, I use the lower cases, just like I would a conversation. In the chorus, where I am trying to up the level of the action, I will do all caps, because that indicates the places for the "singalong factor" of a chorus.

In a "Channel" or "Pre-chorus" I indent it as if to say "Here is something different.." The way it is typed, as I said with the commas, give a sense of reading it the way it is sung. If you get any number of lyric sheets from hit writers, you will see the song flows on paper much like it flows musically. Going back into my files of other hit song lyrics I have from the writer's themselves, they are often indented the same way when written long hand. One of the big charity fund raisers we do here is have the writers write out their hit lyrics in long hand form. Then it can be framed and is used to raise money for benefits. You have a hand written copy of a song from the writer of that song.

Most of those have the indention and the choruses inserted a little bigger.

There are always going to be publishers or writers or people that do critiques that want something different. It is an inexact world based upon what people are comfortable with. Really six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Mine simply come from the people who do it well and seem to get a lot of hits.

MAB

Darn... forgot I had a current pic of my handsome self on here... lol...

Marc, I absolutely agree with you. You can almost tell if a song flows well when just looking at it's printed lyrics. If things look kinda... symmetrical, you are usually on to something.

Just an observation.

Michael

Mike,

Like everything in life, you have to keep everything musical in CONTEXT. The listeners of music rarely listen to just one type of music or one song anymore.They listen to a TON of stuff while doing a million other things as well.

Industry people, like the publishers in this particular instance, are doing a ton of things too. They are listening to hundreds of songs, meetings with their existing writers,going over past catalogue, going to pitch and networking meetings, checking the industry trades, keeping track of what they have pitched before, screening new artists for potential pitches.

So getting and keeping attention is EVERYTHING. Most of them at first don't even look at lyric sheets. They are listening to the songs, and a lot of time, only get through a verse and a chorus. If you have the lyric sheet there, you can scan down and see if it looks like it is going to flow well, if the storyline is going to be compelling, if it will have certain things built in, inner rhymes, elbow moments(phrases or words that stand out from everything else), interesting personification, twists on the tail, rope of hope, etc. things that make a song listenable.

Usually there are two stack of CD's. One stack that is pretty high of things they have to listen to but haven't gotten to yet, and a stack a bit smaller, that they have listened to and want to go back and review. As time goes on toward pitching, each stack gets a bit smaller.

So having a very clear lyric sheet, clear language, easily to understand story line, are all things that help keep someone listener. If they forward that on to a producer, label exec, or an artist, they do the same thing. Mostly thinking "Is this different than what we already have, is this going to perform well, is this going to knock something we have off of the project, the set, the concert tour?"

Having a clear lyric sheet that reads like the song is just one more thing we do to keep it in the smaller stack. And we need EVERY edge we can get.

MAB

Hi Marc,

I absolutely agree with you, your description meets what I have experienced perfectly.

Personally, I am very happy about the 'new' way of how we can present our work to the industry, radio, our contemporaries and the world. Does anybody remember the days of 'Demo Tapes', literally?? To send off a demo was a production in itself... You had to make sure the tape was wound back to the right spot, come up with some kind of 'cover art', even if it was just a demo cassette - just to have that 'edge' you described so aptly in your post - and then add a few pictures, info material and take the lot to the post office, say a prayer and hope for the best....

Today, all the relevant information - lyrics included - is embedded in the mp3 file you email, or upload to a site for streaming, for that matter. You can 'watermark' a file, and show lyrics or any other information, pictures etc. while the file is playing. And all the recipient of the song has to do is to 'double click'. What a time to be doing this....

It also does away with the need for physical media as CD's or (for the dinosaurs among us) tapes. So the 'stacks' have become rather virtual ones, too.

Isn't it a good idea to look at how the industry counterparts (or who ever we like to get interested in our goods) receive these pitches in today's day and age? Where are the pitfalls here, I wonder.

And, just to break a lance for today's singer/songwriter - WE do TONS of stuff, too. We have to. To be self-sufficient, we have had to become a computer experts, of sorts; sound engineers, to certain degrees; multi instrumentalists, at least on a 'able-to-fake-it' level. We have to play gigs, or work other jobs, to keep food on the table and ink in the pen (or printer, rather.... what a RIP OFF scheme, by the way... but that's a different topic to rant over another time...lol)

So, the poor publishers aren't the only ones working hard... would be nice if they remembered that at times, too... Or, as Willie said..."Mr Music Executive, why don't you write your own song?"

I have read a good few of your posts on here, Marc, and I have to say I enjoyed each and every one. Your style of explaining and sharing your experiences in the biz is fun to read, and utmost contentful with heaps of good, common sense advice. I like your style.

Great day, ev'rybody

Michael

Mornin' Marc:

Did I misunderstand you? Did you imply that producers, publishers or artists read the lyric sheet first before even hearing the song?

I've always been told that the songs are heard by interns in the A&R department first. Should they "find" something (among the tons of CD's they receive) they believe is relevant to what management is looking for... they bring the package forward to the team leader for further investigation.

This is the point in the process where the lyric sheet comes into play... I've been told. Of course, all this depends on the size of the organization to whom one pitched the song. As you know, there are plenty of one-man publishing houses out there now. (The owner is the A&R department as well as the pitch man.)

I agree with Michael. Your posts are fun and informative.

Dave

Well MikeB,
Maybe you should check out Mr. Magoo. His arms may also have been too short. Raise those Fonts Everybody!

Raise your Fonts to 20 I say. What do you think Ray?

I so should have gone to specsavers......

Michael

On a more serious note, I actually vary the size of fonts I use for printout copies of my lyrics. Depending on the ammount of text, I do try to let a lyric fill a regular A4 page nicely, and easy on the eye.

It took lots of inner struggle and lots of thought and sometimes even sweat to get those words onto paper, in the first place - so it's only apt to present them with a little eye for the detail, as well as the overall appearance. So, in reality, I wind up with font sizes of anything between 11.5 and 14, maybe 15.

I also tend to use centre alignment, most of the times (except for arrangement copies in which case I need the extra space to the right to write my arrangemental notes in.)

I stay away from fancy fonts, with the exception of some really easy-on-the-eye and very much readable handwriting fonts. I don't use cursive or Bold Print, although I'd use the latter for the title line.

And most of the times I have my glasses on, when writing (... and in the studio I like wearing contacts... for health & safety reasons...lol...

Great Day,

Michael

This is the most fascinating and informative thread I've ever read in JPF-
Thank you to all of you for letting us newbies in on the way things are done--seriously--this is outstanding--thanks
Tim

MikeB

You like the phrase easy on the eyes...is this reference to girls and now using it for fonts, I assume.

LOL

Hey size 15 is large to me, from my days in the office; standard was 12pt Roman.

Petra
MIke B easy on the eyes

Tim,

While trawling thru the posts and threads on here, I come across the one or the other thing I already know, but I don't feel offened by that - au contraire, mon ami des armes...

At the littlest, it would make me review something I mightn't have thought about for a long time, sometimes... or just to compare how other people do it with the way I got accustomed to approach stuff.

Petra, I like 'Easy on the eyes' in ANY context... don't you?

Although I probably chose this term for the more literal meaning of it, in this case. I really meant it that simply: Easier to see and, subsequently, read.

And, of course, 15 is on the rather large end of the scale....lol.. still, with little tunes only consisting of two or three four liners, it might be needed to 'fill out' the page nicely.



Michael

Dave,

What I said was:

So getting and keeping attention is EVERYTHING. Most of them at first don't even look at lyric sheets. They are listening to the songs, and a lot of time, only get through a verse and a chorus. If you have the lyric sheet there, you can scan down and see if it looks like it is going to flow well, if the storyline is going to be compelling, if it will have certain things built in, inner rhymes, elbow moments(phrases or words that stand out from everything else), interesting personification, twists on the tail, rope of hope, etc. things that make a song listenable.


Sometimes they will scan along with the song, and a lyric sheet helps when you are doing this. When you are going through a couple of hundred songs at a time, most that have been referred to you by the lower level people, it helps to have a lyric sheet to speed the process up. I would always rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Upping the level of your odds.

MAB

Marc:

Thanks for the clarification. I suspected that I had drawn the wrong conclusion.

Several of us have been kicking around the idea of making CDs (for submitting to Publishers, Producers and Artists) that include the video and audio combined (using Microsoft's Movie Maker Software) along with the lyrics. Here is the format I've adopted when creating them:

1. Intro screen identifying song title, songwriter's name and relevant data

2. Photos of songwriter and things like logos to keep the interest of the screener. This part begins with the song's intro.

3. Lyrics in screens that rollover to the next part of the song at the appropriate time... as the lyrics scroll upward from the bottom of the screen and in time with the music.

4. Credits at the end with Songwriters Name and Song Title plus Pro Affilliation, etc.

5. A closing logo and something cute just to let them know you are human and have a sense of humor. (A fluffy little dog or a cartoon, etc.)

My question for you: Do you think this would work with most A&R departments?

(The outside label on the CD would identify that it is a video/audio/lyrics song that will only play on a PC by using windows media player.) I only plan to include one song per CD.

Roy Cooper came up with this idea and I've seen a couple of his creations at various sites. I believe it might be a harbinger of things to come. The only downside I can see is that these files take up a great deal of space on your PC's Hard Drive. (I think there is a fairly easy way around that problem by sending the files to a remote USB drive.)

Thanks in advance, for you opinion.

Dave

Why don't you use a hosting site, then put on your hard drive; back up copies on cd's and store in safe place. You don't need to purchase more hard drive space.

Just a thought, Dave.

Dave,

While I think that might be interesting in a You Tube type format, and to have on a web site, I don't think that would be of much interest to a publisher. Again, they are listening to hundreds of songs and the ones getting priorities are people they are already dealing with so they don't need the pictures, etc.

Basically when you are dealing with anything industry wise it is best to use the KISS principal. KEEP IT SIMPLE SONGWRITER. Make it easy to read, don't cloud it up with extoranous information,have a contact number, email, etc. I could be wrong but don't think I am. They are just wanting to hear the song itself, read lyrics for clarification or context, and see if it fits something they have a use for or knocks something they already have out of contention.

You could ask other people, but for me I would never want to get involved with all that information.

MAB

Marc is right it is a simple case of horses for courses. The important thing is to do your homework and find out WHO to send stuff to WHAT exactly they want and in WHICH format they want it. Gizmos and videos are great for sites like Youtube but they play NO PART in submitting to the industry. With many thousands of DEMOS being submitted anything complicated or not fitting the norm will likely just get binned even faster.
Petra backing up everything is really important so the more backups you have the better. I have two laptops that are syncd to each other in case one goes down. I have several hard drives with multiple back ups of everything and I also use backup software, ghost imaging and online storage...once bitten twice shy.
Anyways I would love to find out why Tampa Stan...does both caps and lower case all at the same time. It makes reading his stuff difficult.
I prefer normal lower case with caps as necessary. I have eyesight probs so I use very large font when working on lyrics or printing out lyrics for songs which I am recording.

What is Ghost Imaging?

Yes I like too. tp know why Stan uses caps and regular size letters. I feel it harder to read as well.

Good Post JIM.

P.