JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Method you use for writing lyrics?

Would like to hear what is the best method of writing lyrics.


Writing with pencil and paper? Do you edit on the original or do you rewrite the whole lyric on separate piece of paper. Do you keep in a binder or file folder?

Or do you type directly on a software program like Microsoft and save each editunder different name, like Thunder Rolls 1, Thunder Rolls 2?

Just want to get to the basics, and find what is the best method
and get organized.

Look forward to your process.

Miz. Petra

There's no "best" in most things. Depends on what anyone likes, for any given reasons.

For me, I would just grab any paper and pencil nearby, for those sudden bursts of an idea, (lines, title/hook), whatever I would be thinking about.

For planned writing times, I would still write on paper, but with my dedicated, special gift (real nice!) pen my daughter gave me that has "Daubert and Holcombe" nicely written on it. Besides being special, it forces me to be "on", (for me), instead of just jotting down anything. (Not able to erase). Works for me. I do however need to cross words or lines out here and there of course. But it has me edit and rewrite on the spot before writing anything down. (Saves a lot of time). "Rewriting" still, just in condensed time, on the spot.

For some lyrics in the past year, where I wasn't at the piano or guitar, I would type them on the computer.

Buddy would write on anything at first, with pencil, (sideways on the paper even). The main thing for him was to get many ideas down on the paper, and use all of them to see if anything can be used or rearranged. The more straight any lines were, the more he thought about them at that time. Slanted written lines in corners, for example, were just quick ideas.

Johnny, you must have a good memory. But, guess that comes from years of writing and editing.

Miz. Petra

Your question comes across like you want to know what is the best way to actually write or pen a lyric in a creative sense, but reading further I see you are actually asking about the functional/practical side of storing your lyric, etc....

Different strokes for different folks literally! Sometimes you will use pen/pencil because it's handy and you are not in front of your computer so you make due w/a nearby table napkin or whatever to get your thoughts down anyway you can because the muse is unpredictable (that's what I love about her). Sometimes you might be writing intentionally and so the computer is a wonderful and fast tool. Here are some ideas/safeguards...

1. Have one copy on computer
2. Store on a flashdrive for backup
3. Print out a hard copy to keep in your home
4. If you want to be really careful print out a second hard copy for a family member to keep in their home (the chances are slim that you both would have a fire)
5. Keep a list of your songs as well and number them so you can refer to the list (you can make notations on the list like * for which ones you think are special, write down which ones are demoed and which ones you want to get demoed, perhaps write the genre next to the song for quick look up) or whatever notes you want to make.

I edit on the computer, it's just easier. The hard copy is nice because you can take a lyric or two on the road and w/you and work on your melody. The car can be be a great place to get alittle melody work done. The melodies I pretty much write/store in my head so it's a handsfree situation while driving.

Enjoy!!!

Best,
Lynn

I usually start by writing ideas and maybe 3/4 of a lyric in a notebook. When it takes shape, I type it on the computer and update it as necessary. I do not save the old versions. I also have a hand held recorder that I can use while out and about if the words come to me with a melody (which they usually do). Then I transcribe it when I get home.

Here is my office a couple of weeks ago (shared with my wife).

Colin I love your office, no windows!!!

Hey guys,

Thanks so much Lynn, you certainly are organized; Very helpful advice. #5 haven't thought of this...will do.

Editing on the computer, makes sense, save on paper as well.



Collin, I have a cell phone, with a recorder, never even used...will now on my walks, will take along in case I get inspired. Love your outside studio.


Much appreciation here,

Miz. Petra

Lynn, love your cute dog...in our building there are several dogs that look like yours, don't know the breed. They are very loving, I have to pet them each time I see them.

Petra

Notes and fragments on paper.
Actual writing is almost always done on the computer.

Lynn, love your cute dog...in our building there are several dogs that look like yours, don't know the breed. They are very loving, I have to pet them each time I see them.

Petra

I use EverNote.com for title ideas, lyric ideas, melody ideas, etc. They also have an iPhone app that I use quite a bit. So, if I'm driving in my car and an idea strikes me, I can type it into the app and it will sync with the server so that I can further develop when I'm in front of a computer. The app also allows you to attache audio, video or photos from the phone. There have been many times that I recorded a quick scratch idea of a melody or chord progression.

When I'm actually trying to craft lyrics, nine times out of ten I'll do it with pen and paper. The other time, I'll type into a word processor.

I rarely write out chords or melody notes to my song, unless I'm charting it for other musicians to play.

Ron

Ron,

I don't write music. Wish I did. Want to know for those who don't write music how does the melody come to you? from the words that contain vowels?..Ignorant here and need help understand this creation progress..Like to learn.

Help.

Miz. Petra

From hearing it, but silently to others. (In me head!)
Just like songs heard on the radio or records before. Later they play as if really on. Hearing everything. Same thing for my creativity process. It's like the melody has already been played before, and I'm just hearing it again in my head. Just an automatic, and sometimes, frequent process.

For my memory that you brought up: Yeah, I always had a strong audio and visual memory. My facts of anything is not from thinking about them, but either seeing them or hearing them in the same sequence and detail as originally happened. This is why I remembered so much of my trips to England as a 2 year old, then a 6 year old. I told my parents of many details later as a teen and adult, and they confirmed most. Right down to the clothes everyone was wearing and what we did and said at any given time. Some they don't remember even after being told though, but the ones they did remember confirmed I was right all those times. To me, it is clear what happened, and what things sounded like, (like the exact sound the horses made that brought the cake truck everyday. (1955 and 1959).

Guess that's why I became a piano tuner. Once I learned how to tune by hearing my teacher tune, it was locked in as to what pianos should sound like, (relative to their quality and pitch, of course though). The hardest part was the mechanical end of it, using the tuning hammer with the super delicate touch needed, while also needing strength.

If I had to go on intelligence thinking for the facts of all I've heard and saw, I'd be in deep sh.. trouble! (or sheep dip trouble)! Ha!

My mom, who is almost 93 has the same memory, as does my daughter and her 5 year old son, Jack. His is more advanced than all of ours though. Incredible. He heard and saw Ringo play three songs on a DVD when he was 2 and played them right after, with most of the right fills and stops the first time, as I was playing the piano on those songs. (He got a Ludwig mini set of drums for his 2nd birthday), for he was playing my adult Rogers set at my house and not just banging. (1 and a half up to his 2nd birthday).

My mom's short term is going though. But she sees and hears the same things I tell her about now for new memories I get flashed before me in audio and visual, (for the most part). Then she goes off on even more details as she hears and sees them. WE have the best times talking about those times in England.

I am just about nothing smarts wise without my special memory. Things I try from thinking about them usually end of so bad or wrong that it's not funny anymore. Ask me about my "Johnami" sometime! Oh brother!

But for melodies,,,I think I must have every melody I ever heard playing at once sometimes, which is rough to hear, until an original one pops out from all that clutter. My melodies are composed in the time it takes to start and complete the song's melody in real time. No working on them needed. I hear them as if a past song coming to me. I always have to check to make sure it is more mine than anything else.

Hope I didn't jump in and disrupt other's thoughts.

This is a fun post to read everyone's ways! They all work, right?!

Man, you are the next generation. It sounds very "plugged in". I see how useful this can be. I realized several years ago that although most of my lyric ideas are first expressed on the back of envelopes and napkins, eventually they end up in a Word document; and if there is a lot of revision, I learned not to reject anything. I will just create a folder with a song title and then date the revisions. I had 18 revisions in one song. When I am ready to record, I looked back at all the revisions and usually somewhere in the middle, I have a line that was better than a later revision so I find it useful to "edit" in this way. But when it comes down to the final product, Willie Nelson had it right. "If you can't remember it, it wasn't any good anyway". The best "App" of all is the imagination.

Here is a question I would like answered. Some of you may know. Does Bernie Taupin write lyrics to Elton John's music or does Elton John write music to Bernie Taupin's lyrics?

Hi Petra:

Like John and Lynn said, "There is no "best way" for writing lyrics... or music for that matter." Whatever serves you best is what you need to do. Naturally, it helps to have a method. I start with a writer's spiral bound tablet. After I get the lyric "fleshed-out" to where I believe it is "singable"... I'll sit down at the keyboard and begin working up a tune by selecting chords for a suitable melody.

I usually try to get the entire song recorded as quickly as possible and then transport it from the digital recorder to the PC so I can begin the editing process. (Changing volumes, getting rid of as many pops and hisses and other sibilant sounds as possible, etc.) After letting it simmer for a day or two, I'll listen again. Sometimes I like what I've done and sometimes I know it needs work. I don't hesitate to do a complete or partial re-write. Then I'll record the darn thing as many times as needed to get something that begins to sound like a song.

Ask ten songwriters and you'll get ten different answers. I never throw a lyric away. I try to keep all my songs in numerical order and also further classify them alphabetically, by genre, etc. I keep completed songs on three different computers for safety... and two are never connected to the internet. My MP3 player holds about 300 of my songs and I rotate them in and out of it frequently. It helps to listen and arrange them into playlists to see what might work best in an album.

I'm often amazed to hear something in one of my songs that forces me to go back and attempt to improve it.

I retain the bad songs as well as the good ones. Ya never know when you might have a new idea that allows you to turn a "sows ear" into a "silk purse." (LOL!) I also identify the songs that are co-written with a "CW" suffix to make sure I share credits and any income created by them... and get permission to pitch the song, etc. After all, your co-writer owns half the song until it gets published.

Working in different genres is a fantastic mental outlet for me and I am often surprised at how easy a song will work well in different styles. (This is an exception in most cases.)

The more you write the easier it gets... provided you have a method that works well for you.

Regards,

Dave

HIDee Mz P!

Over a Decade-Ago, my younger son, Maxwell, discovered a Dumpster chock-full of 3-M Carbonless Paper..slightly out-of-date..that we siphoned-off into our Van/stored in the Pink House.

This has resulted in a Major Pile of "finished lyrics", all done with a ball-point pen, that sit up to 3-feet-tall in portions of our Current Digs. (I've been posting "Final Drafts" here at JPF since 2001..expect SOMEDAY..Soon?..to download all of 'em via a Printer..& collate/make a bit of a book out of it all!)

I've recorded about 100...of the prolly 2K Batch..& had about 30-or-so Recorded/Co-ed by Others. I have very LITTLE "Organizing" to it all..it just..like Topsy..sorty "Grows". Still HAVE enough paper in-stock to keep at it Another 5 Years or so...& hopefully by-then I'll be making more-than-beer-money from all this...& buy some More Paper to keep at it.

My Muse arrives nightly..melodies & all..& I'm often up around 5AM..sometimes 3..being a bit of an Insomniac.

Good Luck at devising a "System" that works well for ya!
Best Wishes & Big Hugs,
Stan

I use a PC word processor to physically write down lyrics. It is so easy to use and edit. The ability to make changes like amend words or lines and spell check is great. You can also save everything to be worked on at a later time and print the final lyric. I could not go back to a pen and paper although a pen and notepad is great for jotting down ideas or lines etc if the puter is not handy. I also use a Mp3 player with record facilities as a dictaphone it is handy for putting down ideas.
As far as what is the best way to actually compose lyrics or get ifeas for them well that is pretty much down to individual tastes and cricumstances. One good tip is write when the inspiration comes. I have had so many great ideas come and go and then they get forgotten and lost forever when trying to remember later.

When I was a serious, disciplined writer, ( ha that made me laugh), I always had a note book or hand held recorder. I would write the key words or hook and then all my thoughts had to be geared toward that. If I was away from all of that and a moment of brilliance struck me, I would call myself on my cell phone and leave the lyrics on my voice mail.

My problem was (and still is) music talks to me. When I play a set of chords or just noodling around I instantly hear lyrics. This method works for me because the phrasing aligns better with the meter of my song.

But when you get down to it, lyrics aren’t that important anyway. ( now ducking and hiding under my desk singing “Scrambled Eggs, oh baby how I love your legs”)

Petra I love talking about our dog, so in answer to your question she is a Cockapoo, a combination of of a cocker spaniel and poodle. Depending on her parents, etc they can lean heavier towards one or the other. I think "Isabella" leans more towards the spaniel since her fur isn't too curly (and I've seen cockapoos who look just like poodles). Also some poodles can be hyper and bark alot, she does not. She is hypoallergenic and doesn't shed (there is a difference). Atleast as far as her disposition we were blessed, she's a 24/7 love machine and always happy. She is sooooo sweet it's like having a dessert all day long. You can't walk across the room w/o going over and petting her. I sing to her daily since she usually inspires alittle chorus out of me somehow. One she hears pretty often is "I just gotta tell ya bout my little Isabella, oh she could have the heart, the heart of any fella"

I use Master Writer or just the word program.. I often start with some musical idea, then check my hook book if anything is relevant or come up with something to match the musical idea, and then write the chorus first. Then I sketch out the verses, write the important opening couplet, and mostly muddle through the verses, if there's a bridge I write that last. Then I play it through 10-20 times, and rewrite for singability ect., before I start considering an arrangement..

It's not really a method, just a workflow I like..

I save everything on the computer (I keep double backups), categorized by year. I print it to take it to my homestudio, write the music down by hand, and file the printed version with music scrabbled on. On many I haven't written down the music, as I can hear what to play when returning to it pretty fast.

Sam if Wikipedia is correct, it reads that Taupin writes the lyrics on his own and John then puts them to music. Also, apparently there was a documentary in 1991 called "Two Rooms" which probably covered this very topic. Whats really interesting (and again if it's true) is there was an ad in an English newspaper back in 1967 searching for songwriters and somebody saw the talent of both these men individually and brought them together.

Most of the time for me, melody comes before lyrics. I play guitar quite a bit and often come up with melody ideas while messing around with chord patterns or riffs on guitar. I also try to come up with melodies without a guitar in hand. The melodies I seem to come up with this way have a different style.

While working out they melody, I'll often have a title come to me, or I'll be using one from my note book. Usually, I'll work out the chorus lyrics with dummy words or gibberish. It's funny how often those dummy lyrics or gibberish will inspire a real lyric.

Quick story... years ago I was working with a buddy on a song idea. I did not have a title or even an idea for what the song was about, but I had the music and melody in my head. I started recording the demo anyway. It was a heavy rock song with a short, simple melody in the chorus that I recorded on the demo singing "one, two, three, four!" Actually, it was closer to shouting than singing. I played it for my writing partner, and he thought I was singing "what is love good for". That became the title of the song and we wrote the lyrics together in about an hour.

Anyway, I strongly encourage you to try writing melody. It is my belief you don't need musician skills or talent to be able to write strong melody. If you can make sounds with your voice, you can record your ideas on a cell phone, computer, whatever and then hook up with someone to collaborate with create a proper demo recording.

Ron

That is what I would have guessed- that Taupin wrote the lyrics first. The songwriters I talk to say it is harder to put lyrics to music than the other way around. I think that is probably true if you just did it as a exercise; but if the music actually inspires a feeling, I think that makes it easier. I have done it both ways working with other artist. But if I am working alone, usually a lyric (hook idea) and the music arrive together. It is never a whole song- just a melody and line. Then I have to decide if I have the ambition to complete it.

I have a mind control kPad (two generations beyond the iPad) where if I think really hard, the melody and lyrics pop onto it. Unfortunately, I have only been able to create plagiarized ABBA hits. I guess it takes a little practice.

Kevin

Lynn, thanks for telling me Isabella's breed. Most of the dogs here have a combination of poodle and something else, well one looks exactly like yours, others heavy on the poodle side and the other part don't know.But all very sweet.

I believe Isabella, is a love machine 24/7!!! So sweet.

Get this Lynn, I know all the dogs names in my building, at the Jewish community center and several from the next door building; but for the life of me can't remember the owner's names!!LOL


Petra

Interesting thread, guys (and gals). I suppose I have to weigh in on the "different" part.

I can't take credit for the music. I don't write music. I *hear* music. Probably a side effect of growing up in the '60s; Life has a soundtrack, and I hear music 24/7. I refer to it as The Soundtrack From God. Occasionally, parts of the Soundtrack will grow words, and I call that "writing."

I do not write anything down until I consider it finished. So I might be wandering about singing to myself for days. Keeping everything organized in my head is good mnemonic training; it ensures that when I am ready to play it, I'll have everything memorized--when I'm on stage, it's going to be just me and the guitar.

Once it's as good as I think I can make it, I'll toss it to the wolves here at JPF, and maybe a couple other of the writers' sites I subscribe to (I get my most knowledgeable and competent input here, though). Often, I'll get really good suggestions I'll want to incorporate. Then, and only then, will the song (1) get recorded and (2) get played in front of a live audience (not necessarily in that order). If the audiences like it--and specifically, if it gets requested again--I'll consider it a "keeper"; otherwise, I'll do my best to forget it.

As far as "co-writes" go, what I've done a fair amount of is musicating other people's lyrics. All that really means from my end is what they wrote happened to match up with part of the Soundtrack From God, and I was able to express it on the guitar.

Joe

On the music/lyrics first, debate, I think that it really depends on the musical quality of the lyrics and the lyrical quality of the music. I mostly feel that certain lyrics invites certain music, and certain music invites certain words.

I think the "invitation" in the lyrics for music, is about how well the rhyme scheme are crafted (are there enough variations to stimulate different melodies throughout), how singable the word choices are, how well the syllables match ect.

And the "invitation" in the music is about how well the music succeeds in creating an inspiring mood (different chord choices suggest different melody lines), how well the suggested mood fits the tempo and instrumentation of the song, how well the music varies between sections (does it lift for the chorus, are there sufficient variations and opportunities for hooks - in the groove, chords, transitions), ect.

Whether to hear those matches or not, also depends on the lyricist/musician, if they have developed a sufficient vocabulary/craft, and a good listening ear for writing songs, in particular.

I think the experience of "hard"/"easy" very much can find a root cause in how well "the invitation" is crafted, and how "the invitation" is dealt with.

Seems to me that Taupin/John is equally great at inviting and taking up invitations.

Purely my own opinion, though.

There is no debate as to what is best.... music first or lyrics first. It all comes down to what works best for the individuals concerned. One thing for sure a good song is a combination of lyrics and music...you cannot have one without the other and produce a good song.
I can work both ways...... sometimes I hear a tune as I write lyrics or think of lyrics as I hear a tune and sometimes the whole thing just comes at once.

What’s that called when you take a topic in another direction? Don’t want to do that BUT .. You can have a great song with not so great lyrics, but seldom have a great song with lousy music. Just my off topic opinion for Big Jim.

I have a notebook stuffed full of random bits of paper with lyrics on them.

Dan

Their is no set formulae for writing lyrics Petra,every writer is different.A lyric "theme" can from from just about anywhere your imagination takes you.Mostly it is fiction,but sometimes if you want to write about a particular subject,say taken from history,then you would need to research that subject,and put your own lyric to it based on fact.For me personally,i use pen& paper,all songs start out as a blank piece of paper,getting the lyric "right" for me personally is very important,therefore i chop'n'change words constantly until i get it right,to my own satisfaction,Depending what you are writing about,some lyrics come easier than others,especially if you can paint a picture in your mind of what you are writing about,or you have a "feel" for the lyric as it grows on the page,the only downside to writing is, if you have no musical "ear" which helps one recognise the flow of the lyric,this can be a major problem,as all songs have parameters which must be adhered to,but that will come with experience,as you travel along the Songwriting highway.I would suggest you join a local songwriters club in your area,there you will find like minded folk,who all try to help each other..Terry..

Iggy I have to disagree about a great song having lousy lyrics. You can have a great tune but with iffy lyrics it is still only a great tune not a great song. A truly GREAT song has to have both great lyrics and a great melody. You can get by with mediocre lyrics and still have an OK song but a mediocre tune even with great lyrics is still a mediocre song. Few people know or will remember all the lyrics to songs......they can remember the hooks and part of the chorus or verse but we all remember a great tune and arrangement. So IMO a tune and an arrangement is the most important part of a song. Most pop music is production driven so the performance and the lyrics are relatively unimportant.
In fact print off some lyrics of the chart songs of the last few years.......it mostly consists of purile repetetive meaningless rubbish.
"womanizer, womanizer, womanizer, your a womanizer" hardly a candidate for the Nobel prize for literature....YET SOLD MILLIONS.

A matter affirmed that a good song is the lyric poetry combination, and music…You are impossible to have not other and to cause a good song. ...

Songwriters on Songwriting, when asked where the songs come from, Leonared Cohen was quoted , "If I knew where the good songs came from, I’d go there more often. It’s a mysterious condition. It’s much like the life of a Catholic nun. You’re married to a mystery."
Good Point

I really do not have a set style.. i usually start writing ideas by hand .. and when there is enough to begin structuring the lyric I put it on the computer for easier editing.

Joanne