JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum It Does Not Matter Who Does Not Like Your Songs

I think Jim overall everyone at least around here feels as you do to some degree, some a little bit and some alot.
It's kinda like preaching to the choir. And as none of us works for a label signing acts, are mainstream radio station program directors or making marketing strategies, BUYING airtime, gobbling up all the first pages of all the most popular and substantial music websites...

Since that is not the case at all here, it just feels like to me (maybe some more of us)it's such a heavy load for you to worry about constantly day & night year after year. And all for kinda no reason but what? fairness and justice, fairplay... Feels like an obsession.
While it SUCKS, there are even worse injustices happening to people in the world. Feel them and be aware, but try not to let anything like this consume you the way this does. Certain doctors should care this much about people.

There's something else to know about true music lovers, they often love pretty much all music. And when they don't there love of music always finds it's way to the forefront, kinda over riding all the wrongs of the business the band nonsenses, the writing quarrels and even envy or DISGUST over millionare's who can't sing,write,play,rap or dance well or at all!

I kinda get the feeling that your so locked into the way you are that it doesn't even affect you. Almost programmed in now.
I know I can get and feel the way you do LOTS of times, and it bothers me just as much that I allow myself to get that way. Ya falla? Robert Shaw, The Sting

You gotta try it from my corner where you take beating after beating and keep coming back for more. Forget about all this talk

All The Best

There's plenty of good music around. Keep your ears open.

Absolutely!
Good stuff here Jody. Good examples

I can't help myself, probably to a bad degree
to get into the mind,the feelings and the perspectives of those around me. When "those" are engineers or producers I find relevance and interest in whatever there doing. If a song there working on is called "Go Suck On An Egg" and it is not only annoyingly bad in ways or offensive,dopey or whatever.
I do not focus on that, I go "What's that your using there for that low end" Man it's freaking shaking my gut, it's awesome"
Shoot "that back ground vocal is so clean" I wonder what mic they used? I wonder which track it's on and where they have it sitting in the mix. I really can't tell cause I'm starring down a mile long double SSL

And the more other musicians, writers singer artists whatever there is, well then it's just MORE perspectives for me to be aware of be reminded of and bring into my package.

If I'm in session that is not my favorite style I still get overtaken and exhilarated by Music. ANY music..
Just being in a studio with all things I'm interested in and love. Which like you there are many things...

You just do your thing, whatever it happens to be that day.
You work HARD and you LOVE your work... I too noticed that the most nonsense seems to occur when your not working.
And It's really nice to be recognized and even rewarded in some way by your HARD WORK. Not even the level or depth of your talent or skills.

When your working on the inside of something ANYTHING, it is completely relevant to you and you just DO.. That has nothing to do with opinions,tastes, rights or wrongs. Hey man I just bought this camera and where shooting a bad movie, lets make it the best bad movie we can.

Mike you are probably right......but if more people were like me and fought their corner.....sooner or later the people responsible for feeding us the crap would have to take notice. That is my point....it saddens me that folk are too apathetic to care or even try to do something about it.
It shows just how clever and manipulative these moguls can be and how stupid the buying public sometimes are. You cannot blame the tasteless prepubescent tweenies for hero worship and following the latest trad....but responsible discerning adults should know better and that should start at the top not come from me at the bottom.

I'm not going to stop writing pop songs just because a few people might have a bad taste in their mouth about it. I couldn't care less honestly. I like my songs and fortunately, so does the public. At the end of the day, that's really all that matters. I'm getting heard by hundreds of thousands of people all over the planet. :-)

Yes Jim, I wish that those who voices would be heard instead of us back and forth, would step up.

In my VERY short time on Columbia we were doing stuff that was out there man. Acid Jazz, with elements of dance and rock. Of all the cool tracks on our weird for the times album... They made a dance/club version of one of the songs. That was the one that went number one for us in Billboard, That was the early 90's and the tide was already shifting towards dance music, hip hop/rap and pop that was more related to those styles. So it figures that it's what had to be done to our song to get attention. It wasn't so bad because in the song was still an upright bass, my live ago bell playing and whacky guitars, and my keyboard player and band leader/producer is great player so...

Also the Boy Band thing was in full swing then, one after another too much and I think the Spice Girls as well, I try to forget them though. One thing that was cool was some great Rock bands out of the "grunge" period like Collective Soul, STP, Jelly Fish, AIC, Radio Head, Soundgarden etc... 1980's

Also the ladies who sing and write killer, were on the radio top charts. NOBODY can tell me that Ricki Lee Jones, Paula Cole, Sarah McLaughlin, Shawn Colvin, Kate Bush, Indigo Girls, Alanis are hacks,not talented not CATCHY and don't deserve.
If someone were telling me that I wouldn't hear them so well because I'd be so distracted by the talking butt crack that was telling me

You like me probably have a love for Rock,Blues,Jazz, Classic R&B Classical.... These styles were already taking a back seat
and being totally replaced in the popular music scene. Remember the start? Like no more guitar solos ever? Horns are GONE! etc...
The reason I LOVE pop music so much is because it always had these elements in it.

Another thing you need to realize is that the people working in many record labels grew up in the late 80's, 90's it's 2010 now almost 2011. Some of them think BASS is the thing that rattles the hell out of your car they don't think, Fretless, Upright, P Bass, Rick. IF your born in 1980 your thirty years old now.
Try to remember that, ever have a musical conversation with some 25 year olds?

I ALWAYS agree with you that the general public WILL pretty much buy what you show them,,, Other wise the advertising and commerical business wouldn't be the gazillion dollars biz it is. In music I prove it EVERYTIME by just goin the other way, when I say the band "YES" I did not find the great band YES because I was digging to find some GREAT cool band and I was so sophisticated that my eight year old ears JUST KNEW! lol

HOW did I know??

With NO Internet, NO more than SIX channels on a TV set,
A TV that went off the air at night, and no twitter...


How did I know????

The RECORD/MUSIC INDUSTRY showed them to me.... That's how period. That fact is not disputable, unless there's a talking crack heading this way LOL

[b]They were on the R_A_D_I_O with there hit song Roundabout.
They were on ATLANTIC RECORDS, they sold out Madison Square
Garden. They got played on the radio right after a Glenn Cambell song followed by Barry White, The Allman Brothers and Olivia Newton John, & Chuck Mangione. That's the beauty of the past and that period. The mixed bag the TOP SPOT shared....

But we've been over this 50 times already....
It's a different world and entrainment/music industry good luck changing it.

Amen to that Brother!

That's another thing, straight up, do you (meaning ANY songwriter) wanna do what you love to do? And even get paid for it? Or do you want to scrub floors or clean toilets or be miserable behind a clean desk. No offense on the toilet thing I've DONE it. Any job/career that you don't like is the same thing... If your not happy it's all the same.

But really, what do want from life?
You keep punching Greg, I think about what you do and are doing and I'm both happy and proud and envious.

Mike

+1.000.000.000.. This is exactly why it's called rock'n roll! You stand tall against fixed opinions.. we are fucking freeeeeee!.. at least untill someone pays us for associating our music with their product. Then rock'n roll is extended to be about loyalty, if not for the compagny, then for the contract.. friends

Mags

Ummm Rock n Roll is dead but the philosophy applies to whatever you believe in..

Rock On Dude!

Gregory and Mike I agree 100%......There is nothing wrong with writing or performing pop music or any other music even if you are not much good at it as there are plenty of karaoke bars that encourage non singers to have a laugh.......and there is absolutely nothing wrong with following a dream and making a good living from doing something you love if you are any good at it. There is however a lot wrong with promoting or worshipping as an idol someone who clearly cannot sing yet is making millions from it. I would rather see a great song sung by someone who CAN sing and perform rather than some tone deaf kid off the street lip sync.They are out there and are not that hard to find. That opinion is not due to any different or old fashioned taste in music but simply having eyes and ears and a musical brain.

Jim

I'm just trying to ease your pain by explaining how things change in certain ways. It's kind of hard to stop change whether you like the changes or not. I LOVE Big Band music but if it stayed forever we would have missed everything else.

I know I don't idolize any lip syncing tone deaf kid, and I know you don't. I don't think we could get a list here going with more than five people on it who do. So why go on preaching it.

I do know that there are people here and all over, lyricist and songwriters and producers who would like to have a career in the field of music. They would like to take there career as FAR as they can. Just like a baseball player wanting not only to play in the major league but win a World Series. The doing it for fun & love is a given to me so then what's next?

Constantly cutting down people this way can be taken the wrong way more than the right way, like nine out of ten times.
It's like you telling people "If you write songs for the pop stars of today you are as worthless as they are" Sorry bro but that's how there gonna take it, it's not gonna fly and it ain't cool.
People are going to go on doing what they believe in and what they know. They are doing there thing,living in there time.

I think the only way to solve this problem once and for all is YOU HAVE to get into the music/entertainment industry on a high level. Other wise we may as well be talking about baseball here.
Hit the ball out of the park with steroids or not with steroids..
And STILL get paid? Get in and do that, or keep fighting the good fight with nobody, or let it go! That is all the advice I could give a friend. This thing is like a song with one chord

If I wasn't a lunatic who's up till 8:00 am in the morning till he passes out.. who wont go to sleep simply because he doesn't want to start another day all over again I would bail on this thread.

Goodnight & Good Luck

The irony in this thread is almost overwhelming. I refer back to Tom's original post:


I'm just saying!...

I too am bailing..... if people do not know the diff between quality and taste....then that is their BIG problem not mine. If folk take what I say the wrong way 9 out of 10 then that says more about their lack of musical knowledge and poor judgement than it does about mine.

I like hamburgers but mostly I would prefer fillet steak......now if a hamburger is made from floor scraps or a steak is poor quality and gristly...then it is crap no matter how it is packaged or marketed. Even if millions buy it it is still crap.
Same goes with music. A poor performance is a poor performance whether it is a steak or a hamburger.

Big Jim, being able to sing on pitch is very valuable of course, but it is only one part of being a performer/singer.

Tom

Kevin wrote" ------The irony in this thread is almost overwhelming. I refer back to Tom's original post:
Originally Posted By: Tom Shea
So don't dwell on those who don't like your songs - just focus on getting some people to like them.

I'm just saying!..."


Kevin, very good observation. It is pretty funny.

Tom

Big Jim, you seem to be saying that your opinion is the only valid one. Can't someone else have a valid opinion that a song or singer is good, even if you disagree? If I like hamburger better than steak is my opinion invalid? If I like Taylor Swift, is my opinion invalid?

Tom

I, for one don't think "Rock & Roll is dead." It's just prettymuch in-bred with Surviving-Old-Acts..who remain VERY Good at What They Do...most of which have had a 20-30 year Head Start on the Newcomers.

I admire Big Jimmy's beefing about "Quality" Issues...but, let's face it, there are LOTS of better Beers than Budweiser around, but Bud still Outsells them All, because they KNOW How To SELL Their Product. AND..a whole LOT of people are QUITE satisfied WITH that Bud in their hand. (Even tho I prefer Amberbock..heh-heh..& frankly know of FAR-Better Brands..but they're Imported/Pricey/& I'm basically cheap.)

Does my knowledge of Better Beer than Bud make Bud an "Inferior Product?" NOT to 90-some-Percent of Beer Drinkers.

AND..we writers/performers SHOULD keep the Average Listener/Buyer in-mind..& NOT denigrate those folks' taste One Iota..(Assuming we-TOO wanna sell Millions of Units....Someday.)

JMO, Amigos! Rock On!
Stan

Some say (poh-tay-toh), some say (poh-tah-toh). At the end of the day, we're all gonna like what we like, and hate what we hate. Nothing wrong with that. :-)

And Mike, don't be envious. I just happened to be lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time and it helps that I have a likeable personality people can respond to.

Being trustworthy, honest, and likeable goes a long way in this industry and are sought after traits by those hungry for a return to the "shake of the hand" type loyalty.

The closer one gets to the inner circles of the entertainment industry, the sooner one realizes that it's a family within a family of friends.

With that said, even though there is a ton of absolutely amazingly talented people in the world, the connected are the ones who get recognized. The connected are the ones who get a chance to reach the top of the charts.

Wanna make a change? Get connected.

Yep, couldn't agree more.

I'd rather work with No 2 , who is dedicated and passionate, than the No 1 choice, who is more "talented" , yet unmarketable.

The overall picture is workablility. Bottom line.

cheers, niteshift

Tom you are entitled to like whoever you like for whatever reason you like them....that is not my point and I am certainly not having a dig at you personally.
I just cannot get my head around the FACT that there are far better singers who cannot make it no matter how hard they try.
When rotten hamburgers made from floorsweepings are sold as fillet steak that is when I have a problem.

Great post and tread Tom! Still can't stand Bieber, but great point in your post and thread.

An old high school buddy of mine discovered on facebook that I had recorded several cd's a couple years back, after so many years of being out of touch with each other. Upon learning this, he downloaded them and gave them a listen. He sent me a message saying he enjoyed my music, but still prefers AC/DC.

I appreciated his honesty. Doesn't mean I'm going to change my music to be more like AC/DC. But I'll take them over Bieber any day.

I agree with you. You seem not to listen to Marks ongoing posts and do your own thing.

Sandy, welcome to JPF. Can't be someone else.

Tom

I personally listen to Marc's ongoing posts and welcome them, just as I welcome your posts. I also do my own thing too.

... and then there is Kristen and her songwriting push.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjp6en0lYRw

Marc's assessment of the Nashville songwriting/music scene are dead accurate. It is just that (and he will be first to say) the Nashville songwriting/music scene or the major label music scene in general is not for everybody. It takes a level of commitment and a true love of the music, the fans, and the scene itself to even get in the ballgame.

Years ago, I wrote at Pride Music, Charley Pride's company. It was there I learned a lot of this. We wrote there by appointment, listened to each others songs, went to writers nights etc. I made a choice, though. I wanted to play music more than to write it, also I wanted to play things, more or less, my way. So I moved toward independent label session work and production, and have done fairly well at it, thank God. That's where my perspective is generated. But things in this world aren't often simply one thing or the other. They are one thing and the other and the other. Marc is right on the money with his description of the Nashville major label music scene. It's worth reading him. Does that mean there might not, now and then, be someone who breaks through a different way? Of course, those very rare instances are known as "the exception that proves the rule." They never come from someone who is trying to break into the business as it is while ignoring the system the business utilizes. They come from people who, through their amazing talent, are discovered by the business. Townes Van Zandt is one who comes to mind.

In my observations the folks who are doing it within the mainstream music business rarely disapprove or make fun of the folks who are going the independent route, but for some reason, a lot of the folks going the independent route disapprove or make fun of the biz folks. Interesting phenomenon.

All the Best,
Mike

Marc and Mike know ...

Tom

iv'e been away and am trying to get back into the groove here and i don't know if i'm jiveing with all of this but my impression is john wesly hardin, bob's guitar was not even in tune most of the album but after all these years i still love that album. have i got it?. just say'n hey

dmk

Wow, so many responders.

It's hard to understand the music business. No one really can predict if a song is going to make it big or make money. Songs that had lousy lyrics made it. Songs that had great lyrics didn't make it. Songs that had great melodies didn't make it and songs that had mediocre melodies have made it. Some songs that repeated the same lines over and over made it.

It's the combination of melody, lyrics, story,vocalist and hook.

I used to like Taylor Swift until she wrote mean songs about her x boyfriends. She's a child, yet she can handle all the pressure. The same with Justin. He can handle it. They must have huge egos. I don't particularly care for Justin because he seems so perfect. They may not last, but they're laughing all the way to the bank.

So in your opinion, what makes a hit or what makes a song popular?

"So in your opinion, what makes a hit or what makes a song popular?"


Money and the backing from those people who run the business and decide what is what. Clever marketing and image promotion can make anybody and any crappy song into a hit....the public can be fooled into buying any crap.
Justin Bieber and Taylor Swift prove my point.
We have been fed with so much mediocrity it has become the accepted norm.
Over forty years of experience, skepticism and cynicism talking.

PS I love writing and performing music but hate the business side...it is full of rodents and freeloaders.

Justin's rise was very different than Taylor's. While the both worked very hard and both have a lot of talent, his rise was very quick - fueled almost entirely by Youtube. I remember when Justice first became interested in his music - it was early on when few had heard of him. Girls were starting to discover his videos.

BTW, I think he is pretty darn good. His more recent vocals are much better than his earlier work. He also has some genuine musical skills. His song Runaway is one my favorite jazz songs ever.

Tom

Tom