JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum COUCHGROUCH

Robert George, AKA couchgrouch, made his last contribution to JPF in February. Here is his last post:

"Joe, I haven't been posting lyrics here or at Toonsmith since my recent trip to Nashville. it became more of a hassle than it was worth. especially there. after nearly 12 years on these sites it was time to move on.

I still archive my stuff on my Taxi page and anyone who wants to hear the latest demos I've been involved with can e-mail me. I'll shoot 'em an mp3 of most songs.

here's a link to the site Taxi's kind enough to let me use. it has all my stuff back to 2004. http://forums.taxi.com/couch-grouch-lyrics-f26.html

Robert was the most talented lyricist posting in a public forum. If there is more talent somewhere, I would love to find it.
Since we may or may not hear from Robert on this or similar sites in the future, I would be interested in comments about him. Most of the controversy he generated had to do with the fact that he rarely commented on others work. I thought it was a forgivable sin considering what he contributed by "example". If the best sermon taught is a noble life lived, then the best song writing advice is simply a well crafted song written. But this is not an obituary. Robert has bigger fish to fry, so really this is a Thank You and a congratulations.

Joe,
I would have to agree with you on this one.Robert is one of the greatest story tellers EVER in my opinion.He is what I would like to strive to be.Maybe he didnt offer much as far as critiques and things like that,but a person could definitely learn alot just by reading the "stories"that he writes.A year or two ago,I actually did receive a compliment from Robert on one of my lyrics.At that time I didnt realize just what that meant.But I now realize that receiving a compliment from Robert was really something special and very rare,so that makes me feel pretty darn good...lol.I really hope that Robert comes back to share more of his wonderful stories with us...
Michelle

Robert is a super writer and story-teller, for sure. It was always a pleasure to read his stuff. But if you made any comments where you thought something didn't work -- you had better have thick skin (ha,ha).

I hope he is getting some good opportunities with his writings and songs. I also hope someone else is doing the P.R. stuff for him -- his dismissive attitude towards most contemporary country writings can't help too much with the Nashville crowd, I would venture to say.

Kevin

I never heard statements that he was untalented, but his bluntness often was the problem. I get the same criticisms. I found myself inundated over the years with complaints about Robert, but rarely, when I investigated, did I find he was the one at fault. We had lots of people come here from other sites he'd had fallouts in to attack him and I booted all that I could catch off our site. I never understood why he didn't make at least a neutral effort to be positive in some way, perhaps like one of the mentors such as Harriet Schock has, to be a helpful part of the community. I also wondered why he posted here and everywhere else. I know TAXI fielded large amounts of complaints and that's what led to his own board so that he could post there out of the general population. I didn't feel that was the best way to handle it (and had several conversations with the owner of TAXI about it) but they can do what they want with their site and vice versa. If he's done posting here, then I wish him well. I actually never understood why he didn't catch on with some quality writers because he was obviously not only a good writer, but perhaps the most prolific lyricist I've ever seen anywhere in the industry. (Perhaps Marc knows someone, but I don't). So you have to wonder what was the problem that kept him from already being a hit co-writer many times over. I've known many talented writer/artists who should have been major stars but their personalities got in the way. Perhaps that was/is Roberts problem and maybe he's finally gotten past that as a stopping point and is ready to play with the big boys and girls. Who knows. He's nothing if not an enigma.

So let's see if we find him listed on some charted hit songs. Or perhaps never hear from him again. Neither result would surprise me. But I sincerely wish him the best.

Brian

Hey Joe,

As a musician, I'm generally of the view that "lyricists only" are a cop out, and only doing half the job.

Roberts work, however, is quite exceptional. If you are a "lyricist only" person, I would suggest that you follow the man's example.

This is the way beautiful songs were written in the "old days". A wordsmith, and a composer.

I haven't had the privelidge of working with Robert, but would gladly do so, should the oppertunity arise.

cheers, niteshift

I do know of some pretty outstanding lyricists and have never really read that much of Robert's stuff. Will try to do that. The thing that always got me was his very confrontational style. And that kills many people in a town like Nashville where your reputation very much preceeds you.

You are judged in a career 85% "off the field", away from writing, recording, performing. So if your attitude comes off as very elitist, before you have earned that right with people, they simply tune you out long before you get a chance to hook up with anyone.

If he has not hooked up with more people, I would look to that more than talent. There are a lots of talented and amazing people. There are also a LOT of people who USED to be someone. Most of them had the attitude problems.

Basically in everything with the music industry you are interviewing for a job. The job of entertaining people or working with them. And there are a LOT of options. Almost everyone who can actually do something for you, has something YOU need, not the other way around. SO if you can imagine walking into a job interview, making bravado statements,challenging people and often getting in their face, you can see how it might not have much to do with talent.

We all work with people we like over people we don't get along with.

Just a fact of life.

MAB

I agree with Joe - I believe one could learn as much or more about writing lyrics by reading Robert's posts than by getting critiques.

I never commented much on his lyrics - I got the feeling he was posting more for exposing his work to possible collaborators than to get critiques. Besides, I found it difficult to find anything to suggest on his stuff.

But if I seldom commented, I often read.

If not being able to read his stuff means he has moved on to bigger things, I'll be happy enough. Best of luck, Robert!

Scott

Anyone who considers themselves a lyricist should take a step back and read some of Robert's lyrics. It'll be a humbling experience. I know that it was for me.

I never got into it with him, but I read his lyrics frequently.
Here's wishing the best to a very talented man.

Ditto to that Todd.

Robert is a great ideal to people who simply CALL themselves lyricists. The only other real lyricist I know is Tampa Stan.

There may be others....

cheers, niteshift

I wrote a bunch of songs with Robert and we've had a lot of phone calls and a lot more emails over the years. Here's the deal as I see it: Rob writes lyrics. He's dedicated to it, and it's his art.

Period.

As far as I can tell, his number one mission in life is to write lyrics. Why isn't he already solidly entrenched in the industry? Because he was busy writing lyrics. That's what he does.

Listen, there is a certain protocol we have come to accept on these songwriting message boards, a certain decorum of politeness, of tit for tat, of give and take...there is an unwritten social code most of us have come to accept as fundamental. And guess what? Rob isn't interested whatsoever in that--he's interested in writing the best lyrics he can write. That's what he does.

When he slammed a critique, he never held back...and yet it's hard to find any of those caustic comebacks that weren't simply true to his opinion. And then threads would often degenerate into personality clashes and critiques of behavior, while he goes off and writes another great lyric.

Rob's a Bernie Taupin kind of lyricist--in other words, he writes a lyric and calls it finished, and then the composer comes in and applies music to it. He's not the sort of writer who sits in a room with you and writes it together. So for me, his lyrics helped me learn the trick of writing to a finished lyric. In the songs we did together, Rob was always willing to make a change. That might surprise a few folks, LOL, but it's true--it only needed a good reason, one that didn't change the meaning of the song. I ended up never having to change much of anything though...to me, the challenge was to find the musical approach that worked, rather than coming sort of close and then demanding him to re-do the structure to make it fit.

There is a lot you can learn from reading his lyrics. One lesson is to KEEP WRITING. Anyone with several thousand lyrics is bound to have more keepers than someone who agonizes over a few dozen. For every good song I write, there are a hell of a lot more clunkers. Rob realizes that...he gives his best shot every time, but then he moves on to the next one. Good plan, I think. Another lesson is to STUDY OTHER LYRICS. As a result of all that studying, he gained the ability to craft lyrics that will always work for the savvy composer. I will say that a lot of composers have slammed him for being too wordy...but I'm here to slam those composers for being lazy. Just need to find the right match to light the fire.

You can like his stuff or not like his stuff, but if you don't respect his dedication to the craft, then I say you've still got some larnin' to do. I really hope Rob finally puts one over the wall one of these days. He'll have earned it, his way.

Even if he is dead wrong about Paul McCartney.

Well said.

cheers, niteshift

I don't know much about this guy. Checked his Taxi page and found over 1,800 songs. So he was prolific. Scanned a half dozen or so. He seemed to write offbeat stuff. He could probably make a song out of man eating a can of beans for dinner. He must have been one of these guys who walks around looking for songs everywhere.

I've only been on JPF since July. From what I saw, he was a prickly type. Liked praise but bristled at any criticism. Not the social type.

People here seemed to like his songs. So he has a following. I saw some clever lines and rhymes in the songs I looked at and some poetic allusions. When you write 1,800 songs you're obviously serious about it.

Like I said, I don't know much about him. And there are millions of poets out there. Did he write melodies to his songs or was he just a lyricist?

I READ MOST OF ROBERT'S LYRICS GOING WAY BACK--MOSTLY AFTER HIS STYLE MATURED, HE STUCK TO A KIND OF PATTERN--MIDDLE OF THE ROAD STYLE ACCEPTED IN COUNTRY--I LEARNED A GREAT DEAL FROM HIM THOUGH--I ACTUALLY WAS A FAN OF SORTS--MOST GREAT WRITERS ARE OFF THE BEATEN PATH--I'M OFF THE BEATEN PATH MYSELF, AS OTHERS HAVE SAID, BUT I'M NOT GREAT--MOST OF US ARE HERE TO LEARN AND DEVELOP INTO WRITERS--MAYBE ONE DAY I'LL WRITE A SONG THAT'S AS GOOD AS ONE OF HIS--MAYBE NOT--

I'LL PROBABLY MISS HIM--BUT SOME OTHERS CAN FILL THE VOID--THERE ARE A LOT OF TALENTED PEOPLE HERE, LURKING IN THE SHADOW OF JPF--

SO WRITE ON YOUALL--WRITE ON!

Mackie

Learn your craft gentleman, and recognise it.

cheers, niteshift

To confirm what Mark Kaufman said about Robert George; he studies songs, not just lyrics. So while he applies his craft as a lyricist, he is a dedicated and knowledgeable musicologist. That is why co-writers learn to trust the rhythm of his words. He knows what makes the whole song work.

I had the opportunity to collab on one of CG songs way back when. I have always been a fan of his writing and often commented on the "well" he pulls from.

He is quite a lyricist and one of the memembers here that I often questioned as to the "why" he/she has not be noticed?

Do not think he ever made a comment on any of mine and believe a comment or two from him was rare and that was sad since he might have had an insight that maybe could have helped someone.

Will miss reading his post and wish him well.

Douglas

First thought that comes to mind... too wordy. He is very talented and I, for sure, write my share of wordy song, but Robert rarely wrote a very simple song. I did not view much of his work as commercial... too wordy. As for art, that's another matter. And then we get into another realm... that of writing SONGS, not lyrics. I cannot identify with a writer who writes only lyrics. But if I did, it would be him/her coupled to someone who composes. He didn't have that partner. So, he was just a very talented, wordy lyricist to me. And one who took more than he gave.

There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about. - Oscar Wilde


Real artists are churlish, childish, aloof, dispassionate, removed, flakey, ......oh, how many words do I need ?..... individuals.

That, however, should be removed when commenting on their art.

I hope you're doing great stuff Robert. Success deserves you in return for your efforts.

cheers, niteshift

Couch had a lot of composers that worked with him. Here is my favorite traditional country song from him -- pretty close to perfect: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=431939&songID=6163153

He has 48 demos at soundclick and I am sure others spread around.

Kevin

Hey Kevin,

Heck ! That's one great song. To a songwriter, it just gels, but also to a wider audience.

It is the great example of a REAL lyricist who considers every word.

Nice to see a lyricist who actually writes songs, not just a bunch of words.

cheers, niteshift

Hey guys,

I have done some looking at these lyrics and maybe I am missing something but does it occur to you that every one of these seem to have been written from the perspective of an over 50 year old guy? There are a lot of dated phrases and terms. I can understand that that might not be of consequence to many of you and from a writing standpoint it doesn't matter.
From a current opportunity standpoint, I don't think I am seeing the same things you guys are.

But that could be me.

MAB

Haven't been around here long enough to comment on his talent. Thought the comment, "he has bigger fish to fry" very interesting. Perhaps he'll invite us to the meal?
Ott

I agree that very few of them attempt to take on a viewpoint other than one he can personally visualize (though he takes on a LOT of different personas, male and female), and I even agree that few of them conform to what most country writers would probably try to pitch.

But I also know he is seeing some action anyway. Then again, all I really know is ya never know...

ALL

Touching bases again, digesting some of the ideas in this POST--COUCHGROUCH--Robert has graduated from the JPF SCHOOL! He left a great many lyrics posted--we can learn from what he wrote--

Marc Barnette is in the MUSIC BIZ and has been for many years--I remember when he started out--I told myself back then: Marc may make it in the BIZ--And he has found his Niche--The difference in Music THEN and NOW--We are now in a SHRINKING MARKET, for all the known reasons--Many talented people in all kinds of Music Industry jobs, are now unemployed--I personally know at least 50 and I’m distant from the BIZ--Music is now an avocation for them.

The BIZ backbone is LAW and RESEARCH--Feeding and Controlling how the LABELS elect to do BIZ, in a dwindling CD distribution Market--They have elected to go with the younger AGE GROUP--Giving them what they hope will increase their BOTTOM LINE.
The older SET of the Market is set ADRIFT--The latter is a bigger GROUP of buyers to be NURTURED. That left the Older Listeners yearning for music they grew up with--Artists and Music, no longer available from the front BURNER. MONEY....MONEY --The INDUSTRY HAS BEEN ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL--Now trying to catch up! YEAH....YEAH....YEAH......EMERGING BIZ TRY TO STAY AHEAD THE CURVE, NOT BEHIND.

ROBERT’S TALENT-- AFFECTED MANY OF US--BUT NOT OTHERS--THAT’S WHY MOST OPINIONS WON’T HAVE AN EFFECT ON HIS CAREER--If the Industry changes direction towards his STYLE, then he could be in the HUNT with other successful writers--WE WILL SEE!

The MUSIC BIZ is like a BIG LOTTERY--With only few WINNERS WORLDWIDE--That’s one reason many get involved--THE POSSIBILITY of being a WINNER.

EACH WRITER or ARTIST is in COMPETITION with the BEST in the WORLD--
Each one of US here, have to be GREAT to be in the ELITE GROUP--We have to keep learning and writing, with the GOAL of eventually becoming ONE OF THE GREAT WRITERS! ONLY A VERY FEW WILL DO IT.

SO WRITE ON--YOUALL

Mackie

Mackie,

I actually am more on the peripehries of the biz. I am involved personally in many ways but mostly in advising others on things I see work and things that don't work.

Actually the music business today is what each of us can make for ourselves, it is very much a do it yourself business. So if Robert can find ways to interact and find an audience for his work that is wonderful. It is what we are all trying to do.

My particular comments revolve around the style of his writing which a lot of people are holding up here. It is very reminicent of what I see a lot of which are older feeling prose and lyrics. Unforutunately there are not older people that are artists. As you get older you don't have the ability to continue to starve for your art, which is what most younger artists are. And that is not what publishers and record labels are looking for.

At the end of the day we all have to be who we are and find our opportunities wherever we find them. I wish each of you and Robert the best in finding a place in the industry and as you know the Internet is quite a large pool to swim in.

My comments are purely around the subject as it started, which are quality or viablity of certain lyrics.

MAB

I think Robert is great. I even wrote a song lyric about him called "The Great Couchgrouch."

I also stopped reading his stuff early on because I can nit pick anything and he never listened to any criticism from anyone that I know of. He always had a reason not to and sometimes it made sense. He could have been nicer about it though. I've seen him come out against cowriters who suggested things. I was someone he said couldn't even write a song and who knows, he may be right. He said the same thing about two other folks, one of whom I know can write songs who has already posted in this thread.

I'm not really sure any of us could help Robert with criticism because he's so good to start with and I did admire the dedication he showed to his compositions. You have to believe in your stuff when no one else does sometimes and he certainly did that. And it made sense because his stuff was good.

But he was wordy and he was poetic. Sometimes in the wonderfully flamboyant images he was so good at painting the simple pleasure of enjoyment was lost. I've never seen anyone (in or out of Nashville) who could be as prolific as Robert while maintaining such a high level of quality. That said, Robert's best songs used a pretty predictable pattern.

I do know a couple of Nashville publishers (with current successes) showed interest in his stuff last year. Whether they did anything with it I don't know but one of them said Robert and his cowriters had gained enough credibility that he would listen to whatever they brought him. He also was interested in seeing Robert rewrite some stuff. If Robert listened to him better than he listened to the same suggestion from internet folks, Robert could go far I think.

I was a great admirer of Robert's writing but he came across as a conceited snob. Hey, I've known worse.
.
.

I do know another writer just as prolific and talented. They both seem to use the practice is perfect method where most are just for fun or exercise until they find an idea to integrate it all into one package. Rob's demeanor on this board never bothered me and I'm sure it is different in different circumstances as Joe has stated. I wish him all the best and I'm sure he'll reach his definition of success.

John

I wish the best for Couchgrouch. He has penned some mighty nice lyrics, I agree. I commented on many of his lyrics in the beginning, I am not sure he ever did mine, and at times, he never acknowledged my comments. So I got to where I would sometimes read them, but gave up commenting, my last time was in January. I liked it so much I had to say so, though suggested one line may have a flow problem...but he never replied...not really a shocker..

Here is what I do not understand.

Why does he get a free pass as far as having to spend time commenting on others work, at least 2 for every lyric he posts? I do not keep up with if he does or not, but I have heard this mentioned before, here and one the muses muse.

Just because he is viewed as the best on the site by a few? Come on now!

I just don't understand that mindset.

We all deserve the same amount of respect. I am not saying I do not get respect here, I do. For the most part, JPF have welcomed me like family and I have grown to care about many of you, prayed for you, worked on songs with you, enjoyed your music, your rantings, your emails, you...
I am just saying, the rules are the rules. This site is free to us, for us to learn from others, and help one another, and he chooses to only display his work, not to offer help or his critiques to others.
What was the problem? Too busy? (well, aren't we all?) Felt he was wasting his time with us? or our opinions don't matter, because his work is not in need of tweaks? He didn't want to give others suggestions, because it would make them improve, thus lowering his status as the great and all knowing couchgrouch?, sorry, that was a dig, not necessary.. He may be a cool guy, I don't know him at all, because he didn't let most of us "in". He didn't appear to treat us as equals. Or as friends. If he did it was behind the scenes with a chosen few.

Sorry if I sound peeved off. I just find myself struggling sometimes to keep up with this site and one other I am involved in regularly, because I try to do it as the rules ask. I try to offer suggestions and support.

Maybe if I get to that status of being looked upon as the most prolific and best writer on JPF then I can just sit back and bask in the glory without supporting this site or lifting a finger to help my peers, but then again, I don't think I would like myself much if I did that.

Again, nothing agains't him as a person. I am just not understanding the reason for him being treated differently than the other JPFers, by others saying he can lead by example and thats good enough, his treatment of us by not participating, and why it was allowed so long.


I will hush now. I mean no ill will, and I don't want to make others mad at me, and if you are his friend, that is fine, and I again do not put the man down, just his ways, I don't understand....and JPF's acceptance of it... just confused here.

And whose job is it to decide which writers are the better ones that don't have to follow rules/or common courtesy and can just "lead by example"?

Kimberly

EDIT-3/14 PS. Brian, I must have been mistaken about the rules, as I was told this by someone when I joined, I think I had put up two lyrics on the same day and was told this, that its best to only put up one song per day and to critique at least a couple of songs when you do. So if it was not part of the rules, I apologise, for the misunderstanding. If it was not a "rule" or a general suggestion, then I suppose CG had every right to do as he pleased on the site. I hope he gets what he wants out of his songwriting. Thats all I have to say about it

Kimberly,

Robert was not treated differently. His postings were always among the least commented on (at least in the "talent to comment" ratio thing) and that is mainly because he didn't didn't comment on others.

The "rule" that you should comment on two to three others for every one you post is not a rule here that I can tell. So it is not important that Robert followed it. I follow it, because it is the only way I'll get feedback (ha, ha).

Kevin

Kevin, maybe the rules have changed since I orginally joined, I just remember at the time either being told or reading that it's only allowed one lyric per day and to crit. at least 2 when you post. I looked at it now and it says to post as much as you want, so maybe that has changed.

I agree, posting more crits helps with one getting crits back. I just wish actually I had the opportunity to learn from others such as Robert's craft if he would critique mine sometimes, and others, as I read them, and learn things from that as well, but he didn't offer that, and its a shame really.


Kimberly

Don't hold anything back now Kim.

What Kevin just said is oh so very true.

Robert received few comments to more then a few depending on what he penned. The "why" he never took the time to comment only he knows.

As for learning he had his style, you yours and the rest, well you get my point.

I will not go and say he was the "best" he was one whose lyrics I liked to read since he painted some great pictures.

Douglas

Hey Kimberly,

I'm not too sure there any rules, just guidelines perhaps.

To be honest, I don't know how you guys critique lyrics. I couldn't tell if they're good or bad, until they are formed into a song. I do know that Roberts' lyrics seem to have a perfect fit. Is that because of the working relationship with the composer ? I guess so, but whatever the course taken, it seems to work.

cheers, niteshift

I just wanted to say that I don't necessarily think Couch was the best writer on these boards. A lot of his stuff wasn't commericial IMO but I'm not sure I know what that means anymore. He was IMO one of the best at painting images and he was also one of the best at putting an unexpected twist into his lyrics. And he was prolific. There are many I enjoy more.

ARGH!!!

First, I appreciate Kimberly had the courage to speak her mind because frankly, these responses aren't representational of the negative comments I got via email and PM from dozens of top posters here (and probably over 100 different people over the years or more). But Kim is the first to speak her mind in the open and I have a lot of respect for her for doing so. I have to wonder where the backbone of the others are? But...

There is only 1 rule on the lyric and mp3 boards and there has only EVER been 1 rule and it hasn't changed. Don't post the same lyric on multiple boards. That's it. When newbies violate that, we nicely let them know and rarely has there ever been a problem. All the rest is simply members of the community giving a reality check in etiquette on how to succeed in getting feedback and making friends which lead to valuable contacts. It's advice, not rules. Anyone saying otherwise is misinformed or lying. (And we had some intentional lying on this topic a few years ago, though I haven't seen it since a couple of those folks stopped coming around).

And a note to Mackie: Us older folks are seeing our music make a HUGE comeback. The music of the 80's is back full force across several sub genres. I hear stuff arranged exactly as we did it back then and I love it because we almost ALL love the music we came of age to (12-24). I graduated in 1986 but started making electronic music in 1981. The more I hear it the more I get the spark to start making music again... we're hearing pop punk, electro pop, rock pop, dance pop, pop R&B (i.e. akin to synth/drum machine R&B) etc. And I am hearing old school sounding Country singers like Chris Young who has a throwback voice and already a couple number 1's in the last year (maybe more, I can barely keep track of him). We hear nothing but American/UK 80's music when we drive around Europe, especially Eastern Europe. And keep in mind, anything older than 1986 is considered an antique. (yeah.. I'm definitely one of those now at 46, 25 years past 21).

Robert is gone. Time to move forward in my opinion. We don't offer this same level of support and respect when friendly helpful people slip away, so in my view, this one has gone on long enough. If you want to read GREAT lyrics, in my opinion, skip Robert until you've combed over the wonderful stories told by the late great Corky Bernard aka Greydog. Now there was a guy worth remembering and appreciating who was a model for both talent AND embracing our community and giving back far more than he took.

Brian

Corky was a great guy. He looked out for countless people in the real (as opposed to the virtual) world, making sure that there was food in bellies, rooves over heads, and nourishment enough for souls. This world lost a shining light when Corky rolled on to the next one.
I always thought that other fellow was a [crude slang for a distinctly male appendage]...here and in other places where I ran across him. It's his prerogative to be that way, and mine to not have anything to do with him.

Well said Kurt. (Nice to hear from you.. wish you were around more).

Brian

I find it interesting as someone who has not been around long that we are talking with great reverence about someone who wrote lyrics and sounds like he was an [insert appendage that joins legs to torso here] when people gave him suggestions for improvement and Ott, who DOES make the effort to comment, has a thread apologizing for not having the time to keep up.

I read a few of CG's lyrics when this thread first came up and I thought they were good. I'm more of a lyricist with access to chords than I am a songwriter, so some were fascinating, others less so. Nevertheless, a community like this revolves around people critiquing other people. While there will always be some who are outside the box and I think most who post want genuine feedback on their work, not a nice [insert same appendage as above here] kiss for doing and amazing job. Since people know that, why post if all you want is a tickled behind? Take them to someone who will DO something with them, whether thats an audience, a publisher, a composer, whatever floats your boat.

If Mr. CG has found success then I hope he does well and I get to hear some of his songs on the radio. Music is what you make of it, as are just about all other things in life. I also hope that those seeking genuine feedback here continue to get it and it continues to help them grow as songwriters and as people. As Bruce Springsteen said - to write a new song you have to be a little bit of a new person and the challenge comes not from writing songs but from trying to be a new person every time.

I should never be allowed to post after 7pm.

John

PS - Brian - I was watching the Supercross on Speed Channel. They were in Indy and I thought of you. Hope you're doing well!

Hi All,

Well I have to be honest, I'm with Kimberly on this one. I listened to a lot of Roberts songs, but in the end, I stopped, because I agree with Kimber.

Feedback is so important, and I've got lots of help here, and I'm very greatful.

This Aussie girl is still learning, but I do my best to offer idea's, if I hear it in someones song, so surely Robert could of done a critic here and there hah.

If Mike Caro, with all his health problems can jump on these boards and help out in such an amazing way, for what reason couldn't Robert help out.

Hugs Michele

I think it's just because people are different, Michele.

Mike has done more for me in music than anyone on this earth. He's one of my "best friends I've never met". I will fix that one day....

I never had the honor of talking with Corky - he had passed before I found JPF.

I had only a little interaction with Robert. One day he paid me a very nice compliment in a private message. We corresponded just a little and I set one of his lyrics to music. I could never do it with the quality that others have done with his stuff, but he was very supportive. He was also very straightforward in his comments about weaknesses - in his lyric as well as in my music.

I liked him - and I enjoyed our interaction. I wish I could have done more with him but setting a pre-existing lyric to music is not a strength of mine.

I appreciate that others might feel differently - that's okay, the world is a more interesting place because of our differences.

LOL - Grouch can cause controversy even when he isn't here.

Scott

Hey Brian,

Ain't that the truth !

Never thought I'd write a song with a dead man, but I did. I came across one of Corkys' lyrics one day, not knowing that he'd passed away, and his estate kindly allowed me to work with one of those lyrics.

Abviously, never having met the man, I can't comment on his character, but damn, his lyrics were just spot on and easy to work with. I later found out the depth of his character, so that was a really nice bonus.

I guess, all in all, you'll only be ever judged by the quality of your work when you're gone, and not on anything else. The pettyness of today will just fade into the ether of tomorrow.

Anyways, good luck to both these writers, whatever their current circumstance may be ( oh, that's right, one particular circumstance may not be too rosy....... or perhaps not. )

A standout is a standout. "And that's all I have to say about that......."

cheers, niteshift

I'm not in a position to evaluate Couch' work or prescence. Nobody would care if I did, and nobody would care if I don't. I don't know him.

But, I know for a fact that he and one of his cowriters have gotten the advice from Nashville publishers to continue to write in their own unique style, though, because what they are looking for is original work, not clones of what's already out there.

That sentiment is both true and not true.
When I first moved to Nashville, somebody gave me some great advice. It took a while to sink in, but it makes perfect sense. He said "Don't waste time trying to figure out what you think they want. There are enough people doing that already. All you have to offer them is you. If what you do is what they want, they'll want you. If it's not, you're not."
Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in the industry who don't know what they want, other than "success". (Whatever that is.) They wait for someone to tell them what they want, or they take what sounds familiar to them...safe and sanitized. It can be disheartening.
Still, you're going to write your best stuff if you are true to yourself. Be the best you that you can. Either you'll be recognized or not.

Not true. He made it very clear on numerous occasions both here and elsewhere "why" he didn't critique others stuff. If anyone missed it - I'm sure I could pull up a few telling examples. I feel badly that we didn't have a collection of them ready to copy and paste in each of his posts - so that other folks wouldn't have wasted their time commenting on his stuff expecting (wrongly) that he would return the favor.

This thread was beginning to be an orgy of cg worship - and frankly, I thought it was sickening.

I "interviewed" cg a while back right here at JPF. He is not any more or less successful than some other folks here. He was JUST as qualified as everyone else to have something to say on lyrics and songs alike. When he DID say something - it was - well, GROUCHY and not the least bit encouraging. People skills are simply not his strong suit. LOL

He likes to write. He writes a lot. AND he is a PITA to get along with. He wasn't really interested in receiving any feedback - even though that is what these boards are for - he didn't think we really had anything to offer him. He is more of a taker than a giver in the realm of online songwriting communities. Period.

If anyone is interested, here is my mini interview. I also believe that was the last time I ever read a lyric of his on here. I think he had always been amused by me and my many questions - which is why I think he took the time to at least respond. The link will take you to my crit and then just scroll to see the rest.

cg interview

He almost sounded human and likeable - but since he STILL wouldn't step up to the plate and actually learn by OUR example how to give a critique that is both helpful and encouraging - then I couldn't be bothered with him anymore here and elsewhere. He really did have MUCH that he could have learned from us . . . really, really.

~Bubbles

This is a fascinating thread. I didn't know this Grouch guy but I can see he was a lightning rod, attracting a wide range of extreme opinions. Some speak with almost a reverence for his 'talent' as a writer. As if Bob Dylan or Bernie Taupin would have to take a place in line behind him. I've glanced at about a dozen of his lyrics and we must be looking at two different writers.

What I see is a good rhymer, but just a journeyman lyricist, certainly not someone anywhere near the top rank. There's little if any emotional impact in his writing. It's mechanical and pretty lifeless. Lots of false sentimentality. Almost like a computer program wrote it. Most of his poetical allusions are overwrought and strained. True, there is a certain cleverness in some of his best lines, but it's the kind of cloying cleverness that annoys more than amazes. I've seen a lot better lyric writing from a lot of the regulars in these lyric and mp3 forums.

I think this is the fellow who knocked off the tribute song after the shooting of the congresswoman in Arizona. It was full of clever rhymes if I remember and over-the-top sentimentality. Wasn't it called "How could it happen here?" or something like that. I pointed out that it was slickly written and formulaic. Had everything in it but the truth.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, others remember him as some kind of egotistical lout with the personality of a schoolyard bully and the social skills of a Trappist monk. Maybe so. From what I saw he was pretty aloof and dismissive of anyone who didn't praise his work. And he certainly had no interest in supporting the efforts of the other writers who hang out here. You wouldn't want to step on this guy's lawn.

My take is that he deserves neither deification nor demonization. He's probably just a grouchy guy who likes to write songs.

Whether you're a fan or a detractor, he surely appears to have had an impact on many people in this community.

Just wanted to agree 100% with Brian.

Grey Dog aka Corky was one of a kind and I for one do miss here very much.

He deserved all the praise he received and I still remember how helpful he was.

Rest In Peace Corky

Douglas

Just wanted to agree 100% with Brian.

Grey Dog aka Corky was one of a kind and I for one do miss him very much.

He deserved all the praise he received and I still remember how helpful he was.

Rest In Peace Corky

Douglas

I want to see Corky's songs now...:) Sounds like he earned a lot of respect.:)

Kim

okay... he was all that...(is..)

Wrote and posted very prolifically here on the lyric boards. was not usually exceedingly cordial with our critiques... but often acknowledged our praises.
and no he didn't return the critiques very often. But every now and then he did...and no it wasn't all bad. I, for one, did get a compliment out of him a time or two.
basically I would say that he didn't like to pick apart a song piecemeal...and didn't want us doing it to him.
Yes he's good. as like any prolific writer he had hits and misses.
I wish him the best and success by his terms.

I've never seen such at tribute.

Let's move on.

I may be thinking of someone else, but seems I remember CG saying he stopped doing critiques because rarely did anyone listen anyway. Over on TS forum, he'd offer suggestions/comments though. At least a few years ago he did.

I like about 1 of 10 of his lyrics. "That's Americana" is my fav.