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Hey guys,

First time poster and amazed by what I've stumbled upon here! I went to a JPF open mic in DC about 5 years ago but was never really involved after that!

I'm wondering how "finished" are your demos when you pitch them - is it just the bare bones of a song with some chords underneath or do you have a full band with a complete arrangement? I've heard demos both ways and I suspect this is a question similar to "how long is a piece of string" but it never hurts to ask right?!

I have no idea how, where or if to pitch a song to anyone, anywhere but I'd love to start and this seems like a pretty good place.

Thanks in advance!

J

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Hey John,

Welcome !

These days ? Almost full production. The bar is very high. The better it's produced, the better for you.

cheers, niteshift

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John,

For my songs, I do the highest quality I can while playing and singing all or most of the parts myself. Since most of my songs get sent for licensing as well as pitching, I want them to be broadcast quality. I've downloaded songs to licensing libraries and, additionally, I work with a co-publisher who pitches songs for licensing as well as other applications (she has signed five songs so far and will also accept non-exclusive submissions from me.)

Here is the most recent song I have finished:
http://www.reverbnation.com/play_now/song_7088949

It's a cowrite with two JPFers, Roger Sosnowski and Greg Brown.

I also cowrite with a friend who owns a publishing company and a studio, on our songs, he produces full demos. We've gotten indie cuts on several of these.

Depending on the song, you don't have to have a full band, but these days they must sound like the radio or something from a movie, tv show, ad or commercial. Those are the directions songs are pitched. It's not enough to show the song is written well enough, we need to show that they will match the need.

Hope that helps. Welcome to JPF!!

Mike


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

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John,

If you consider that every major act, label, publishers listen to around 3000 songs to find 12 for the major and independent projects and these artists are doing radio ready full demos on their OWN songs that you are competing with, if you DON'T have radio ready full up demos, your song probably won't make it past the first two lines or sometimes even the intro.

Give yourself a test. Go to any site that has hundreds of songs to listen to. the JPF members listening rooms, etc. even You Tube. Make sure it is not commerical major label songs. Just demos. In the space of thirty minutes to one hours, listen to as many verses and choruses as you can find.

Then come back here and tell us what you find.

MAB

Last edited by Marc Barnette; 02/03/11 07:35 PM.
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I think I was hoping for some good old days when you could get away with a noisy demo made with the tape player on a boom box. I think I knew the answer before I asked the question, but was still holding out some thread of hope that it might not be the case.

Thanks for the quick responses guys! I appreciate the help!

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I'm going to Sony with a cassette tape, dressed in a gingham dress with a hat with a tag still on it!


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Decisions, decisions, decisions!

We do have this conversation from time to time. The advice is to make the best sounding demo you can make but don't break the bank. I have had Pro demos made over the years as well as my own Guitar/Vocals. Adequate but not great in most cases.

I wonder how many Super Demos are sitting around Nashville that will never get cut because they aren't quite up to snuff as it were. If a listing calls for a certain type song and all I have for the listing is a Home Grown Guitar/Vocal I will send it. If your demo sounds like it was recorded thru a water fall in a barn from 20 feet and is about as clear as a tornado don't send it. Get a clearer recording.

Polly, where do I get that hat with the Tag still attached? Yee Haw!

Last edited by Ray E. Strode; 02/04/11 11:26 AM.

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Thanks for the insight everyone! It sounds like the basic advice is get the bare bones on tape with a guitar and vocals, then get a full demo for the songs you can. I'm not a good enough multi-instrumentalist to do everything on my demos, so I think its time to start finding some local folks to hook up with!

Ray - you mention "listings"/"calls for songs" where are you finding these listings? I'm very new to anything that doesn't involve performing my songs! Thanks again.

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Hey John,
Welcome aboard. The last Tip Sheet I suscribed to closed down a year ago. You can pick up a copy of the latest Songwriter's Market at a book store or order it on line. I have found a new Tip Sheet PITCH THIS MUSIC you might Google to see if you want to suscribe. http://pitchthismusic.com/ may work.


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Ray,

Have you found tip sheets to be an effective method?



"Good science comes in peer reviewed journals. Conspiracy theories come in YouTube videos. "
Kevin @ bandcamp: Crows Say Vee-Eh (and Kevin @50/90 2019)
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Well Kevin,
It was the only way I had to pitch songs. Never had a cut but did get some good and sometimes un soliciated feed back and a request for more songs a couple of times.

As Marc says, there is a gazillion songs out there waiting to be cut so I probably ain't gonna suscribe to another Tip Sheet. Unless something happens I am going up to the Songwriter's Festival the first week of June in Nashville. I will take about 10 CD's to leave with Publisher's if there are any at the event.

I may also visit my Pro to see if I can make a contact or two.

Last edited by Ray E. Strode; 02/05/11 12:25 AM.

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Concentrate on co-writers. Forget about PRO's or publishers. Look for artists.By the way Ray, I will be teaching a class during the Songwriter's festival. Come see me.

MAB

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OK Marc,
I will be the guy with the blue Martin Guitar Cap. Should I bring my Guitar? That would be like bringing a Baloney Sandwich to a Steak Dinner. I will look for you If I come.

So far I haven't done much Co-Writing. Haven't written anything new for a couple of years. New ideas are hard to come up with.


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Ray,

I do a class on performing but we also cover about everything from creation, presentation, networking and business. Even cover about how to find ideas. they are actually all around you. It is why the hit songs are ideas that you always want to go "DUH! I should have written that. Someone did. They were just looking for it and found the twist. We talk about that too. Will be in one of the tents probably on Sunday.

Co-writing is the Nashville handshake. Nothing much happens
without it. Is really the only way to get to know people and let them know you. In this day and age, publishers just are not going to listen to anyone unless they are referred. The PRO's try to refer people but until they know your personality they are not going to make any recomendations. Nobody is going to take a chance on recommending an axe murderer.

You don't have to do anything that weekend. But every trip sets up for the next trip. Collect as many business cards as you can.

That is the way it is done.

MAB

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Ok Marc,
As I have heard, Hank Snow wanted to record a song, some thought the song wasn't exactly right, but they had time to record the song on the tail end of a session, so he cut the song. Well, it became his biggest hit and only one of 3 songs that stayed at the top of the charts for 21 weeks. I bet you know which one. Keep writing. I will mosey around and have already printed my Business Card.


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Ray,

I am not sure about that one. But I do know of two more that the same situation happened, "Everybody Loves Somebody Sometime" for Dean Martin and "I Left My Heart in San Fransisco" for Tony Bennett. And neither one of them wanted to do those songs.

George Jones hated "He Stopped Loving Her Today" and bet Curly Putnam $100 that "that depressing piece of crap will never sell one record."

The music industry is pretty much full of those kind of stories. I think they would be more the rule than the exception.

MAB

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"Somewhere Over The Rainbow" was almost not used in "The Wizard of Oz".

"Summertime" was almost not used in "Porgy and Bess".

Both songs stand on their own as classic works of art, independently of the larger works of which they were a part.


There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
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If you're pitching to ARTISTS, you need radio ready full band demos that sound like they could and should be on the radio NOW>

The best way for non performing writers to understand the other end of this process is to:

HELP A REALLY TALENTED INDIE ARTIST do a song search for their next CD. Screen songs, listen to several hundred or more songs trying to find the very best for them to record.

Create a short list of exceptional songs for them to consider like 20, 30 or 40.



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I know many will argue with me on this one. They do every time. Instead of saying what I think I'll tell you what every producer i've talked to in the last year has said, "Why don't people send guitar vocal demos? I'M the producer!"

Now, there are guitar vocal demos and there are guitar vocal demos....very important to understand the difference between a GREAT guitar vocal demo and a work tape of a voice with a guitar. I like cutting what I call 'enhanced' guitar vocal demos. Maybe a color instrument like fiddle and a bass on there and a little perc. If a song knocks 'em dead with a guitar vocal demo, they start imagining what it would be like... It's harder for me to hear the song through a lot of production sometimes.

That said, if the production is great on a full band demo, AND it's a PERFECT match for the song, absolutely NOTHING beats a fully produced demo. Right Marc? ;>)

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Well,
I do send Guitar Vocals if I have a song or two that fits the request. It's good to hear (although it isn't a big surprise), that Producer's like basic demos.

If you are sending to a Nashville Publisher they want a full band demo, preferably made in Nashville. If you are sending to a Producer that is seeking songs for a particular Artist it is the song they are looking for, not a great production.

Once again don't spend $500 to $1000 on a demo even for a Publisher.


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This never ends. People are going to do what they want to do.
But just like if you want to go climb mountains, they ain't coming to you. There are some things that you can count on:

If you are counting someone to hear "Through" your demo, no matter how great a producer they are, keep wishing. They won't.

Most of the reason is that unless you know them very well, they are never going to hear what you are doing in the first place. If you are "sending" something in, without some personal contact, don't waste your money.

These songs are filtered out long before they get to any producers. They pay people to do that. Or don't pay them. Those are interns.

But you are in direct competition with them. You are competing with their songs, their artists, their publishing companies,their financial interests.

AND THEY DO FULL DEMOS.

If you are trying to get a foothold from the outside AND are not willing to do the same things they do, don't waste your money.

I'm sorry. It is just fact.

You want television or motion picture placements? You think someone up against a deadline with producers, music directors, advertisers breathing down each other's necks, unbelievable competition from networks, thousands of other writers, etc. Do you think they are going to wait around for you to get a great representation on a song? Or that they can even hear through a guitar vocal demo?

I have suggested that anyone who wants to see this up close and personal, give yourself thirty minutes to an hour and listen to as many verses and choruses of songs as you can listen to from unknown songwriters. See how you feel about demos and songs after that. Until you do that you will never understand the position of the people who are listening for a living and why it is so hard to get anything even heard in this day and age.

We can go over it from any angle anyone wants to. But for myself, and I am sure Bill, because I have known him and his work for years, if I was trying to get critigues or basic information, I am going to do basic stuff. But for me, I would NEVER submit a basic demo for ANYTHING that can be public consumption or professional consideration.

Others can. I don't. I know what my competition is doing.

MAB

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"I have suggested that anyone who wants to see this up close and personal, give yourself thirty minutes to an hour and listen to as many verses and choruses of songs as you can listen to from unknown songwriters. See how you feel about demos and songs after that. Until you do that you will never understand the position of the people who are listening for a living and why it is so hard to get anything even heard in this day and age."

I was thinking about this at an open Mic I went to the other day. Everyone had a two-three songs and today if you asked me which ones people played I couldn't tell you. It just goes to show that when you're bombarded with songs the ones that stand out have to leave a mark somehow and its easier to make your song stand out with a great full demo than just sending a guitar and vocal job.

Although Bill - and just to clarify - it sounds like producers like a great song to pop from a guitar/vocal demo so they can do their job and build the song!

From what I understand (and I'm still learning :-)) it sounds like everything else in songwriting - KNOW YOUR AUDIENCE. If its going to a producer then a smart, well played and sung guitar/vocal demo with a bit of color from an added instrument may help but for publishers and the artists themselves you need the full banana with everything.

Personally, I don't think a great guitar demo is anything extra - I scratch my songs to get the idea down and then build out from there. Removing the mistakes and adding a little color and polish before moving on to the next stage shouldn't be that much of an issue.

Oh wait... removing mistakes? Uhoh...

Big thanks again to the effort everyone has put in responding to this. I've probably learned more about professional songwriting in the couple of weeks I've been on here than I did in years of performing!

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John,

Producers are going to add their own touches no matter what. The majority of the hits you hear on the radio are virtually copied note for note from the origional demos. On my first cut, "That's Where it Hurts" on Shelby Lynne's Sunrise album, they took virtually the same demo we did, extended a steel guitar solo in it and did it just like we did our version.

But had I not had the full demo it would have never gotten there in the first place. It was being played over the stereo in the vice president of Tree publishing when producer Billy Sherril walked by, heard the demo and wanted to cut it on his artist, Shelby. The reason they needed that particular song was because it had an extended intro, a two step kick in, and areas that could be used in the scene of a movie, "Another Pair Of Aces" where it fit the scene with Willie Nelson and Kris Kristofferson.
If fit exactly what they needed. But had I not had the full demo, it would have never been heard in the first place.

That was 1989. DO you think it has gotten easier?

On a panel discussion around 2001 in Nashville I was moderating. The panel were record producers and publishers. Someone asked could they "Hear through a guitar vocal?' they all said "Sure." Then I stopped them. I said "Wait a minute. I have to deal with this question all the time. You guys tell these writers that a guitar vocal demo is fine. So they do them and get them shot down. When was the last time you cut a song from a guitar vocal demo from someone YOU DIDN'T KNOW?"

Not one raised their hands.

No one is telling anyone to go spend a bunch of money on demos. You shouldn't. Do as simple or as complete a demo as you can get. I do guitar vocal work tapes as the second stage of my writing. But once I am going to put it into the "real arena" which could be web sites, My Space, Facebook, Reverbnation, or ESPECIALLY when I am trying to pitch something, it is going to be a "full up" demo.

Glad you listened to a lot of other songs. What did that tell you about a lot of the writing quality as well?

MAB

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What did that tell you about a lot of the writing quality as well?

1) If you repeat the same thing too many times I get bored and stop listening.

2) If the changes don't make sense, I get annoyed and stop listening.

3) If you go-off key when singing or play the wrong note, my ear gets offended and I stop listening.

4) I stop listening a lot.

5) On the first listen it is the melody and musicality that keeps me interested.

6) Something melodic and unusual keeps me interested and makes me want to listen again.

7) a clever lyric makes me want to listen again, particularly if it sounded interesting and insightful, but i didn't completely get it the first time.

8) Too many clever lyrics confuse me, and I stop listening.

9) People love to write cliches and I hate to listen to them unless you have something interesting to tell me.

10) An average performance of a great song makes it an average song.

11) An average performance of an average song makes me want to leave.

12) if you want to make a splash at an open mic/writers night/songwriters circle etc. you have to have the kind of song that makes the servers stop serving, the bartenders stop bartending and everyone else dance in the aisles.

12b) You have to perform it flawlessly.

13) A good sound guy is worth his/her weight in gold.

14) If a song is too short then it ends before I'm ready to accept it.

15) If a song is too long then I get bored and stop listening.

16) If you don't do something interesting in the first 30 seconds then I get bored and stop listening. It doesn't matter if you have the most amazing song from then on. I'm bored and not listening.

17) If I want something cut then I have to learn to be significantly more critical of my own work.

So basically, everything and nothing. The open mic was run by a buddy of mine from back when I used to play regularly who is part of the very amazing folk duo/band ilyAIMY (shameless pitch there). I would encourage everyone to do the same thing. Check out openmiks.org, find a popular one, listen, be judgmental, then apply those same judgments to your own songs. It may answer many questions.

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John,

That is one of the best, most complete lists on the subject I have ever seen. Thanks for doing that. Every single one of those things are what I teach in my workshops.

But you never see it until you come face to face with it do you?

MAB

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Its sad, but no.

I just wrote down a whole bunch of different justifications for why it happened but there is nothing to it except experience and self-awareness. Its interesting that to write a good song you have to be very aware of the world around you, but that we often don't look at ourselves in the same way. That was a deep thought for a Sunday lunch time!!

That was an excellent exercise, and writing them down helps them stick in your memory. Thank you!

I've been recording some song ideas on another computer while browsing this morning and they now have long lists of stuff that needs changing at the end of the lyric/chord sheet. by the year 2050 they may be worth listening too!

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Check back in a couple of months. Would be interesting to see what it has done for your own writing.

That is what many of us who deal with this industry face every single day. We constantly have to do critiques, attend shows, visit web sites, follow up on links that people send to us.

When people are writing songs, involved in the recordings, so wrapped up themselves it gets very difficult to see the forest for the trees. So getting "outside one's self" is important.

One of the things when you are around songs all the time, it brings a profound difference to the way you approach everything in your own career.

Apparently you have gotten off on the right first step here.

Good luck, and thank you for your participation.

MAB

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great list john, full of truth

Originally Posted by John Cook
What did that tell you about a lot of the writing quality as well?

1) If you repeat the same thing too many times I get bored and stop listening.

2) If the changes don't make sense, I get annoyed and stop listening.

3) If you go-off key when singing or play the wrong note, my ear gets offended and I stop listening.

4) I stop listening a lot.

5) On the first listen it is the melody and musicality that keeps me interested.

6) Something melodic and unusual keeps me interested and makes me want to listen again.

7) a clever lyric makes me want to listen again, particularly if it sounded interesting and insightful, but i didn't completely get it the first time.

8) Too many clever lyrics confuse me, and I stop listening.

9) People love to write cliches and I hate to listen to them unless you have something interesting to tell me.

10) An average performance of a great song makes it an average song.

11) An average performance of an average song makes me want to leave.

12) if you want to make a splash at an open mic/writers night/songwriters circle etc. you have to have the kind of song that makes the servers stop serving, the bartenders stop bartending and everyone else dance in the aisles.

12b) You have to perform it flawlessly.

13) A good sound guy is worth his/her weight in gold.

14) If a song is too short then it ends before I'm ready to accept it.

15) If a song is too long then I get bored and stop listening.

16) If you don't do something interesting in the first 30 seconds then I get bored and stop listening. It doesn't matter if you have the most amazing song from then on. I'm bored and not listening.

17) If I want something cut then I have to learn to be significantly more critical of my own work.

So basically, everything and nothing. The open mic was run by a buddy of mine from back when I used to play regularly who is part of the very amazing folk duo/band ilyAIMY (shameless pitch there). I would encourage everyone to do the same thing. Check out openmiks.org, find a popular one, listen, be judgmental, then apply those same judgments to your own songs. It may answer many questions.


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Most of what I write my friend I pitch .. in the can that is ...
But I still have fun and that is what it is all about for sure.


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Somebody I know just got a cut yesterday from the work tape. Now THAT's a SONG!

Please don't think you can pitch work tapes. These are people who know people and who know exactly what the artist was looking for.

But I'm just sayin, as soon as there's a rule, someone breaks it.


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