JPF Home Page Forums Creative Arts Forums Visual Arts and Photography Forum Harp guitar revisited

The grass cutting season is drawing to a close, and I feel like I have more free time to live and visit JPF again.
In January 2009, I started a mini-blog of building a harp guitar here: http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/678461/page/2#Post678461

After spending some time with the instrument, I've decided to rebuild it. Here's the problems: it's too unwieldy/big, too heavy, and I never use the 4-string "uke" neck.

So I've decided to rebuild it and see if I can solve some of the problems. I stripped all of the components off the body and made a trip to the table saw. I cut off the lower section in an area that would offer the most wood for gluing. I then found a scrap of wood from the original barn wood piece used, and another scrap of cedar that I could use for the top surface. Both pieces have been glued in place in this photo:

I want one !! It's taken me nearly 6 years just to rebuild my Strat, this would take me a lifetime lol

Can't wait to see how you progress and what it finally sounds like.

What P.ups are going to use ?

Hi Andy! Thanks for checking this out. Don't know yet for the bass strings, but the guitar part will be much more like a Tele than anything else, so 2 single coils for the guitar.

Cool! Looking forward to seeing what the harp guitar morphs into!

Scott

I took a brief break from this project to throw this one together:


There's another view of this in the "Telecaster" thread in the guitar forum here. I made this first, because I wanted to see what parts would be left for the harp guitar. Now I know, and now I can proceed.

A quick drawing for the shape:


And then a trip to bandsaw.

The red tele, unlike the yellow tele that I made, is a good bit brighter, but it also has this gutsy, ballsy tone when plugged in - it's a rocker and it's a beauty. I think I'll name it "Polly."

OMG Tom, I hope Polly sees this post!

That aside, love this thread. I actually sent the link to a friend who is trying to build one, and he got a lot of inspiration from you.

Thanks for sharing, and PLAY ON DUDE!!

xoxo,
Beth

God I love maple necks. This new tele looks fantastic I'd love to hear what it sounds like.

"Polly" has a Burns Trisonic pickup in the neck position. I think this is what Brian May (QUEEN) used on his red special. It's a fatter sound than the typical Tele tone. I also used a 4-way switch, so I get both pickups serial, both pickups parallel, just neck, and just bridge. The bridge pickup is a Fender tele noiseless, which seems to be less "ice-picky" than a normal Tele pickup. The whole thing is shielded with copper. Body is Swamp Ash, so it's very light, and you can feel the vibrations when you play. I'll try to do a recording where I can AB the two teles.
Thanks for checking it out.

Thanks for the kind words Beth! I'm glad I can be of some inspiration to your friend. I seem to be slower at posting pics these days. I'll try to keep up.

I have an idea in my head what it's going to morph into, but what I think about and reality rarely meet.
Thanks for checking it out Scott!

A little bit was done on this project: I went to the bandsaw, no snakes nearby this time, and cut the new shape. Went back to the house and filed and rasped it a bit on the edges. Then I used the block plane and spokeshave to level the cedar top a bit.
I also squeezed wood filler in all the dents, dings, cracks, etc.

OH My --- you are ruthless !!! -- ha ha -- I bet they will sound good ! jm

Hi Joice! oooh I like your djembe! (Bet you don't hear that often. )

I think this is going in the right direction for making it a "useful" instrument and not a "novelty" instrument. Thanks for checking it out.

The rains were heavy last week, which caused the grass to grow. So I've spent more time cutting grass when I thought I was finished. I gathered all the parts that I want to use on this, and started piecing it together, determining where things will go, and what wood needs to be removed. I'm using a guitar bridge from a gutted Peavey Generation. It has sensors built into the saddles and can create an acoustic-like sound. I really wanted that with the harp guitar. To use this, I have to route out a larger area for installing the Printed Circuit board. In the top picture, I use a Forstner drill bit to hog out as much wood as possible.


The new electronics will be installed from the back of the instrument. From the front, I still want it to look like a telecaster as much as possible.

YAY! Another guitar building thread from our gifted Lutheran! Iffin I were a guitar, I'd want to be a red telecaster with a ballsy sound, so thanks for naming her "Polly".

Tom this is really starting to take shape. Looks like a nice peace of wood, have you had any thoughts on colour yet ? I'm going through a striped down natural look at the moment as you can see from my avatar

Have you ever built for guitars other people or is just a personal deal. You seem to have a very good eye for detail as the Polly Tele is just stunning.

Rgds
Andy

HA! You have a way with words. I would much rather be a known as a "luthier", than a lutheran. Besides, the Lutherans wouldn't want me anyway since I've been excommunicated from another organized religion, but that's another story for another day. Thanks for checking it out.

And now I can say I'm gonna go play with Polly , and make beautiful music, and not get myself into trouble.

Hello again Andy! I have made quite a few for others. I even have two in the UK, so I'm an international luthier, woohooo! One's in Manchester, and the other in Wiltshire. I've got pics of most of the ones I've made in my Facebook account.

One of the things I didn't like was the "closeness" of the harp neck to the guitar neck, as shown in this picture:


I marked the sharp edge of the harp neck with a Sharpie and took it to the bandsaw. This opened it up a bit and it will make it easier to turn the tuning keys.

While at the barn, I also rough-sanded the body.

Yeah, what I say!

Not as lot of activity on this, other pressing issues, and another trip next week will delay more work. But I'll post what I've done. I wanted to find the "optimal" location for the new pickup that I will be using for the harp strings. To do this, I soldered a connector right to the pickup, got out the Beatle bass (which is the same scale length as what I have here), plugged just the pickup into a guitar amp, and held the pickup in front of the bass strings until I go the tone I wanted.
For me, the best tone with this pickup is 4 inches from the bridge. I then drew lines where the strings will be, and positioned the pickup so that it lines up correctly, and traced it:

I then used the drill and removed as much wood from the area as possible, then routed it.

All the routing is now completed. This body is mostly pine, and old pine at that, so it's very soft, and very light. I gave it a "soak" coat of shellac, to help strengthen and seal the wood.


Still needs a bit of sanding and a bit more shellac, but that's all for now.

Question: Is it common to use a softer wood for a guitar? Wouldn't that make it more vulnerable to moisture and temperature? Can Shellac really protect it that much?

The very first Fender guitars were made using pine. It's making a "comeback" amongst collectors and builders. Yes it is very soft, and easy to dent and ding. Basswood is another soft wood that has been used for years in instrument construction.

Any wood will breathe and expand/contract. I've walked into music stores where every instrument I've touched, the frets hang over the edge like little daggers. The store was way too dry and the wood shrank enought to cause the frets (which don't change size) to stick out. So really, any guitar should be properly cared for. Easpecially in the drier winter months, having a humidifier in your guitar should help prevent it from cracking.

Shellac has been used for centuries for finishing guitars,violins, etc. In this day and age though, it's not the best medium, but it's what I had. I expect that this instrument will get an occasional ding and dent.

I have decided on a colour. This instrument has so many "patches" already, that it would not look good with a natural finish. Plus, with an opaque colour, I don't have to remove all of the existing finish (as long as the new paint is compatable).

The original color was white - sort of an antique white. It made the instrument look huge. For this reworking, I'm going BLACK. Thanks for asking.

There hasn't been much progress on the harp guitar - too many other things going on. Like having to cut the grass AGAIN - didn't think I'd still be doing that in October.

Also, my favorite dog died Thursday night. It was tough saying goodbye to Thunder. He was my special buddy. This is the last photo we have of him done over the summer where my wife works.


Thunder was a rescue, so I really don't know how old he was, but I knew he was slowing down a lot over the last couple weeks. He died Thursday night in my arms. These last few days have been very tough.

At some point last week, I did get a chance to do what I call a "wash coat" of color. The wood is so soft and the paint just soaks in, since I chose not to use a primer. I'll need to do several coats down in the barn/worshop, but I brought it inside the house to wet-sand the drips and get ready for the next coat.

Way cool on the harp guitar redo, but so sad about your dog. At least he died in the arms of love, which is a beautiful way to go. It's so difficult to lose a good friend like that.

Thanks Jean. It's still tough at times.

I did a second coat of the black - it's not enough, but I ran out of paint. So now I have to decide if I live with it, or save up for more paint. I'll let it sit for a bit before I buff it up and see how it looks. I don't mind if the wood shows through in spots, since it already has a lot of dents and dings in it, and being a soft wood, will get some more in the future. Personally, I kind of like the "well used, relic" look more than the brand new, shiny look. Since this is just for me, I'll probably live with it the way it is.

Bad news, bad news.
I must've gotten a defective batch of paint. It never hardened properly, and it became gummy. Not much you can do about it, but scrape it off and start over. So I scraped it off, and got an interesting effect. Looks like some of the pigment soaked into the softer grain, so when I scraped, it removed the top gummy layer, but left a harder smooth finish that makes the body look like it has zebra stripes. This really looks beat up, but it emphasizes that it's old barn wood too. I'm still not sure if I want to repaint it or leave it this way. Here's some views of the body in the current status.





The original white/yellowed white was never completely removed, and now appears again in spots.

So let me know your thoughts - should I live with this the way it is, or repaint??

Tom sorry to hear about your dog man.

As for how the project it's progressing really well, I'm just blown away with the shape of this thing. It looks so cool.
As for the finish that you're working on I'm in two minds about it. Part of me really likes that burnt look but as it's such a big instrument it almost over powers the shape if you know what I mean..not sure if I do now I typed it out. Anyway it's very hard to tell if this look will suit it once it's finished.
One things for sure it's freakin awesome!

Rgds
Andy

HI Andy,
Yes, I was thinking it looks like it was badly burned too. I did another photo laying the components roughly in the area where they would go.
The verdict is not out yet on the final appearance.

Looking at it for a while, I decided that I can't leave it this way. It's going to be solid black. Picked up some black lacquer yesterday, now I need warm dry weather. Not sure when that'll happen.

Man I remember seeing this when you first started this project! Looking GREAT! I love the worn look (way more character than new and shiny!) and the craftmanship looks solid as well.

Also, my condolences on the loss of your freind.

please, Keep posting as this pics of this project as it is finished! I'll bet it'll sound as cool as it looks!

The way it looks now reminds me of a well-abused wooden school desk. I think there was an Alice Cooper album cover that it reminds me of. It's just a bit too much, and distracting. I also like a worn-in look better than new and shiny, so once I get it to a decent solid color, I can "relic" it a bit.

My father-in-law passed away suddenly last Saturday, and now I have a few days of bereavement time. The wife left to go be with her family, but I have to stay behind and care for her animals. The guitar will be painted inside the warm house while she is away.

It's been a while since I'd done anything, but I'm back on this project again. We had a few warm days where I was able to use up a couple cans of spray lacquer, then I let it sit for well over a week. I just wet sanded, and buffed the finish on it. If this was for anyone else, I would make it nicer, but it's for me, so I don't care about the dings and dents. I've probably already said that, but it's how I feel. I know this was a crappy piece of wood (it actually had rot spots in it), and it would take a lot more than I wanted to spend to get a pristine finish. I like the well-used look anyway, so it is what it is. Here's the front after rubbing compound and bowling alley wax:


...and here's the back:

You can really see where the wood grain/rotted sections appear. I think it has character.

It's beautiful, Tom! There was a guy at Doak Turner's place in Nashville Sunday with a very unusual looking instrument. Reminded me of something you'd make! I didn't have a chance to ask him where he got it.

Ohhh thanks Polly - tease my curiosity with the mention of an unusual looking instrument without any details.

I'm glad you were able to perform in Nashville. I hope to hear good things soon, because it's going to be a while before I hear good things coming out of this harp guitar.

Moving ahead slowly. This week is the beginning of deer hunting season, and it sounds like a war zone outside. I walked my property this morning and found someone had torn off a metal NO TRESSPASSING sign that I had nailed to a tree. I guess if there's not a sign, the hillbillies feel they have a right to be there. I also found a campfire that was also on my property. This is not the safest spot to be for the two weeks of hunting season. Hillbillies + guns + beer are not a good combination.

So I'm inside comforting animals that are freaking out, and working on this project when I can. In this picture, you can see areas where I've added copper shielding. This is my favorite part of the job. I fill in all cavities where the electronics will go with thin copper sheeting, and solder them together. This helps keep the unwanted noise of the electronics under control.

You can also see I've installed the guitar bridge. Each string saddle has a separate wire which connects to the internal circuit board. This saddles are piezo sensors so that it can create an almost "acoustic-like" sound. I've labeled each wire with a piece of masking tape so I can correctly identify them when connecting to the circuit board.

I had a set of black tuners that were about 1/2 the weight of the previous tuning gears. Since another goal was to keep this instrument light, I've installed them. I still have the chrome tuners for the bass strings, and if I was building this for anyone else, I would go for a uniform look. Since this is for me, comfort rules. the tuners were in storage for many years, and have a natural relic to them. They should look good with everything else looking a little beat up.

A few more things accomplished. I've decided to use the original guitar section bridge for the bass bridge. This is a smaller and lighter bridge than the previous bass bridge, plus all the existing string-through holes that were drilled line up perfectly. So in the first picture, I line it up and mark the location with masking tape:


Then I remember I need to add a ground wire for the bridge, so I have to drill a hole - a long hole. In this pic, I used a Forstner bit to inset a shallow hole. This will help my drill bit from "slipping" as I try to drill on a steep angle.


Then I drill the long hole from the bridge area to the control cavity (This is a posed shot, since I needed to be accurate).


Then I ran a grounding wire through the hole, and screwed down the bridge in place so that the wire is mashed against the metal of the bridge plate and therefore will provide an electrical ground when it's soldered in place in the control cavity area.


Either strings or electronics are next. Since I don't have any extra sets of guitar strings - it's on to the electronics. Unfortunately, I need to order a 3-way switch, so I can't continue until it arrives. More delays...

It's really starting to take shape Tom. Looks ace! I like the fact you're going with piezo sensors on the bridge that's going to add some great tone to this beast. Are you going to be able to blend the piezo with the other P.ups?

This project it amazing I love watching it transform before my eyes as the weeks pass.

All bridges are not created equal

That's today's lesson. Never assume anything. I'll explain later, since this whole topic is to document the build - good & bad.


Things were moving along quite fine with the electronics, though I hit one snag - I ordered a good quality 3-way switch, which was much deeper than the area in the cavity for it to fit. I had the front plate hooked up the way you would normally see on a Tele, but found that I either had to route the cavity deeper, or flip it around. I opted for the easier choice.

I have one other guitar where I moved the switch to the back, and I have no problem with it this way. Left to right, 1st pot is guitar-side master volume. 2nd pot, guitar-side master tone. 3rd pot, acoustic bridge volume. 3-way switch chooses neck, neck&bridge, or bridge pickup. The smaller 3-way switch in the body (similar location to the Andy Summer's guitar switch) is use for: just electronic pickups, electronics & acoustic pickup, just acoustic pickup.

Here's a view of the electronics from the back. It's rather busy, but everything seems to be working correctly.


So here's the beginning of the bad news....
All bridges are not created equal.
I lined up the new bridge to the existing string holes through the body. I assumed that the distance from these holes to the saddles would be identical to the original bridge. This one is shorter by a little more than 1/4". The position of the bridge to the neck is very critical and it is needed to be correct in order to set the intonation. This much off, I could never be able to adjust the intonation correctly. For those that do not know, the distance from the nut to the 12th fret should be identical to the distance from the 12th fret to the bridge center. Intonation setup will move each string forward or backward from this distance, but it is generally close to equal distance.


To fix this, I have 5 options:
1. Move the bridge.
2. Move the neck.
3. Make a new neck.
4. Abandon the project.
5. Abandon the acoustic sensor bridge and return to the original bridge.

I will not do option #4.
I will not do option #5. I really want the best of both worlds, and making it acoustic-like was one of my original goals. Though replacing the bridge to the original would be the easiest, it still requires a lot of electronic reworking.
Option #1 - This requires the most amount of work. It would mean that I have to dissassemble the electronics, fill all existing string holes and cavities for the bridge electronics, route new holes for the electronics, drill new holes for the strings, and reassemble the electronics (a major feat in itself).
Option #2 - This requires the least amount of work, but it will be more time consuming. The neck needs to move closer to the bridge. This requires the routing/chiseling of the wood in the neck pocket (I already remove a chunk of wood in the above picture), but causes other problems. It shortens the distance of the body between the neck and bridge. It would require reworking the pickguard as well. I roughly positioned this, and discovered that I would also probably have to cut away more wood from the upper horn for this to look correct. I'm not opposed to taking more wood away - it will make the instrument lighter, and I have no problem making/reworking pickguards. It will require body work though, sanding, shaping, sealing and repainting of the body.
Option #3 - This would be the best option - also time-consuming. I could make a slightly shorter neck with a different scale length as well (I'm not really fond of the Fender 25 1/2" distance anyway, I'd be happier with a 24 3/4" scale length like Gibson uses). Given that my funds are basically bankrupt, This may take a while to get the supplies.

So I'm setting this project aside for a couple weeks and thinking about whether I want to do Option #2 or Option #3.

I welcome all thoughts.

Man that's got to be a massive pain in the ass! I'm with you on option 3 but you must be really pissed about the set back.
The wiring looks good for such a small space so kudos for just fitting all that stuff in there.

Keep you chin up Tom I'm sure you'll get this "minor" problem sorted as you've come too far to throw in the towel and scrap it.

Rgds
Andy

Well I don't know anything, but just as an outsider following the project, Option 3 sounds like the best option. Good luck!

Stepping away momentarily from this project was a good thing. I came up with an "easier" solution.
I went for option #2, because (lack of) finances rule, and it was the cheapest alternative. I had already chiseled out the cavity so that the neck could be repositioned. Then I found another pickguard, which was like a revelation:


I had been basing this build on a TELECASTER pickguard (the one on the left). The pickguard on the right is the one that was on the original guitar that used the acoustic sensor bridge I'm using now. The most obvious difference is that the left pickguard uses a single coil pickup, the one on the right uses a humbucker sized pickup. I do have a humbucker sized pickup that would be good for this project. The one that was in the original harp guitar neck position.

In this picture below, I put one pickguard on top of the other. I aligned the top edges where the pickguard touches the neck. Notice that the humbucker pickguard is about 1/4 inch shorter. JUST WHAT I NEED.


Here's what it looks like roughly positioned:


I drilled 4 new mounting holes and attached the neck to the body. Intonation will be correct now. Here's a picture showing the neck aligned to the body. I use the two outer strings as straight edges to align things up correctly.


With the neck mounted, I check the alignment of the bridge pickup. It's perfectly located beneath the strings, so I can attach the pickup to the body now.


The new pickguard still needs a bit of work to fit properly, so I trace the first pickguard shape to the new one.


Then I held the pickguard in the vice and rrough cut it with a copy saw.


Here's the area that may need work in the future. I can live with it until the warmer weather, when I can cut, sand, and paint it when it's more convenient. The pickguard "should" be centered on the body. You can see there's a lot more wood to the right of the pickguard. Cutting this out will make the upper access wider, and also lighten the instrument a little.


Next step is removing the single coil pickup and soldering in the humbucker in its place.

Why are humbucker pickups so popular?

HI Polly,
Humbuckers are popular because they "buck the hum."

The single coil pickups tend to be clearer and brighter, but they also pick up 60 cycle hum - especially from flourescent lights. The concept behind a humbucker is that when you take two identical single coils, flip one around and put them side by side, they cancel out the 60 cycle hum.
I think it's because of this, folks like the humbuckers.

I was away again, and couldn't get to this project for a week or so. I had a break over lunch today, and I installed the humbucker, and tested the wiring.



All was almost all good - when flipping to the "just acoustic" saddle bridge, the bass string pickup went off. I really want the bass pickup on at all times, since that's the nature of the instrument, so I wired the bass pickup straight to the jack (no volume control). This should be fine - I can raise and lower the other pickups to best match volumes. Time ran out over lunch, and I will have to return later to string it up, set intonation, string/pickup height, play, and record it.

Almost there.

Looking good Tom! I like how your choice in pick guard the white edges look cool against the black body.

This has been one hell of project to follow and it's great to see it nearly finished. Great work Tom and thanks for posting all cool pictures.

Have a great Christmas and here's to another great year of guitar making

Almost there (he says with a frustrated sigh).
I got the guitar section finished: added strings, volume, tone & switch knobs, set the action, and intonation (which is spot on). I gotta say, the combination of the body wood, different neck and smaller design just makes this thing VIBRATE when I hold it - I mean that in a good way. It sounds WAY better than I imagined. Here's how it looks so far:



Tweaking I'd like to do (don't know if it's possible) the output of the "acoustic" bridge is much louder than the vintagey tone from the electronic humbuckers, which are not high-output pickups. Right now, I can role the volume knob for the acoustic pickup back and balance it, but I'd like to see if I can get an overall better tonal balance. There's likely a trim pot on the PC board - just gotta check. I can't bring the humbucker pickups any closer without getting wolf tones.

So here's the frustrating part. All I have is used harp/bass strings. Two of them broke while trying to feed them into the bridge. Frustrating. The third one stabbed me good, and I bled all over the instrument. Frustrating, indeed. For this project, I need to assemble a custom set of strings, and calculated I can do it for about $50.00 plus shipping. Unfortunately, that's $50 more than what I have to spend right now.
Yeah, $50 seems like a lot for 6 bass strings, but it's really the equivalent of three sets, if I buy them in bulk. It really comes to about $17.00 per set, which is reasonable for 6 strings with the exact gauges and length I need.

Guess it's time to sell other things to make money for strings.

This is SO AWESOME Tom really... Wow!

On the strings if I had them I'd send them to you...
If I broke a bass sting here I'd be in trouble

Mike