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Strange as it may seem to folk who worship the dollar sign and strive to be rich and famous some of us do not buy into this.....
I know what the business is like and am totally opposed to the hype and marketing and bull.
I have a right to say that it is mediocre.....most of it to any musician clearly is. To say it is not is kidding yourself....perhaps the reason folk disagree with me is that they want to be a part of it.......they know it but dare not admit it.....in case they become part of it.
I make music for me to perform so getting a cut or writing for others is not a priority. I have a fairly large fan base....well enough people pay to see me and I make a living from performing so I have no illusions about my own talent.
There are better songwriters, musicians and performers for sure....but there are a lot who are not......some of them make millions.....that is my gripe... I am not jealous cause I make enough for my needs. I am just sick that the music....which I love with all my heart and soul....has become so corrupted....and thst the general public can be so manipulated.
My arguments are more about the ethics and politics of this business than just bitching about crap and mediocrity.
I am not surprised that they have gone way over folks head.
Most folk have no idea what goes on in this industry....but I am sure the public would be aghast if they did. OK life is unfair.....so why shoot the messenger who exposes the unfairness.

Hi Jim

Nobody can take or wants to take any of that from you.
What the thing that I don't fully get is the relevance.
And also don't grasp your balance,never did. And I should even use the word balance lol I mean you down John Lennon? so if you down P Diddy also then I have no gauge for your tastes or way of arriving to these conclusions. Whitney has no real talent, yeah that songs alright, and countless other quotes that sound like someone is either breaking chops to purposely go against the grain. Or there deaf.

*Folks reading, I know Jim, he has great thick skin and we've been here before so don't panic lol

There is what we wish for and then there's what there is.
I only want you to find some peace my friend.
Lets take some of those points and ease your mind some..

Strange as it may seem to folk who worship the dollar sign and strive to be rich and famous some of us do not buy into this

Neither do I but for certain right reasons I would SELL ANYTHING I owned. Okay we strive for great things and credibility and respect, are those better things?
You can have ALL of that by not doing a darn thing, but you CAN'T have Hit song. And you can't get your beloved music heard by the whole world even if you GAVE it away. Neither can I.
No matter what type the music is, A pop start ain't saying "you believe they buy this crap I'm making. No he or she believes in all he knows how to do and what he does. And there's a big market for it. What does it have to do with you or I?

Rich & Famous?
ANY musician or songwriter would "take the big money" if they say No they are lying! especially if the money was being offered for "exactly what they already do, for free"

There are better songwriters, musicians and performers for sure...but there are a lot who are not......some of them make millions.....that is my gripe...

Okay then what happen to the statement above? This one
Strange as it may seem to folk who worship the dollar sign and strive to be rich and famous some of us do not buy into this

See a pattern Jim?

I have a right to say that it is mediocre.....most of it to any musician clearly is

Your absolutely right you can say anything you want. Now the musician thing...
#1 - OF COURSE if you look at the BIG CHART the main one, it is filled with Non Musicians, or people who don't play musical instruments. That sucks IMO, musicians USED to RULE music. Now Producers do.
Then there is a ton of it that is with musicians they are in Country music and in bands and in many singer songwriter situations. What situation do you apply to?

#2 There are musicians who are touring and recording with all kinds of "mediocre" pop stars. They are working! If your one of them, your thinking this is pretty COOL... I could play lead solo's for an hour at home for FREE and for FUN. And jam with WHOEVER I want on my free time. And I can play behind Justin Timberlake who may let me take a solo even and get paid $7,500 a night. Boy am I in a bad situation with a tough decision to make.

I am just sick that the music....which I love with all my heart and soul....has become so corrupted....and thst the general public can be so manipulated.

The music that you LOVE with all your heart and soul? How has that music become corrupted? That makes no sense. But maybe you meant.. the radio,the music and the scene I used to LOVE so much is GONE!
And yes the general public is and is attempted to be manipulated every minute of everyday. In practically everything! It's HOT because were showing it to you all the time and telling you it is... It's true said the politician. So what's news there? You should live here you'd die...


My arguments are more about the ethics and politics of this business than just bitching about crap and mediocrity.

Really?? I'm glad you never bitch about mediocrity and crap lol

I know Jim I know and so does many many other people. So I don't know how much good it's doing you trying to tell everybody and smarten then up. I like singers that died before I was even born, that's me. If I try to convince a 14 year old kid that Tony Williams of the Platters is just a far superior singer to Taylor Swift or J Lo or Justin Beiber

They AIN'T HAVING IT... And there NOTHING you can do to change there minds the world over...
So......

Peace, you know I luv ya.

PS - I sat in the car waiting for my wife, and listened to the radio for quite some time. I wanted to barf literally. I can admit that. But what does it have to do with me? Nothing not a thing. That's why I seek music elsewhere.

Has anyone here ever told somebody, like a dentist or doctor or cashier or someone you had recently met at a party or event.

"I am a songwriter"

How many times have you heard, "Oh wow really, that's wonderful
Is there any song you wrote that I might know"?

When that answer for your lifetime is NO, then how could you EVER question why another songwriter would want to say YES!

Wow ! Great topic. As writers and performers, God sprinkled a little too much ego dust on us as a group. Ever experienced that ? And we ALL want to be accepted and heard. Our egos take a big hit when our work is dismissed. On a personal note, I find it head scratchingly frustrating when I intentionally pull some crap out in 30 minutes and all my folks love it...And then put your heart and soul in a piece and sweat for it and love it and build it with all you've got and it's obviously crap !! Oh well, welcome to the music biz

Big Jim must feel like that wise man carrying the only lantern in the dark (ha, ha). Whether or not anyone agrees with Jim or not, I think his opinions make sense and need to be heard as a counter weight to all the other opinions out there. God knows I have had my disagreements with Big Jim on what is "mediocre", but his viewpoint is still important.

Kevin

Thanks Mike.

*** Sorry to hijack the thread Tom, but I think what follows shows a point. ***

I fully believe in what I do. It's that combined with the fact that I have something in my abilities that is bringing great opportunities to me. At a recent industry mixer I met someone who was at the RIPT poker tournament I won [where I took home a great piece of recording gear], a person they knew was introduced to me. They heard about my recent deal with my library. Not more than 15 minutes later I'm at the bar getting a water when I turn around and the person I had just met attempted to introduce me to a famous writer/producer. They asked is it alright for me to talk about your deal with such'n'such corp? I said sure and it sounds like you already did. Because of that, said producer who's work just about every musician on the planet now knows, opened up to me saying we ought to do some work together. I said of course and we proceeded to exchange information. You can bet I'm going to pursue that lead.

On the flip-side. An artist that I know, who is actually more of a lawyer than artist, came to me asking to co-write a song. I decided after asking a few pointed questions that it would be something I could do to see how it would go. The song is now written. We're almost finished with tracking. This artist found out how much work it really is in the studio with me when it came to singing. No one had ever guided her, or pushed her as hard in writing or in the studio. The result? Everyone that knows her previous material has come back saying that this particular song is night and day better than anything she's done before. I didn't bullshit her. I didn't allow her to rely on "fixing it in the mix". Now she has a song she believes in and I can too.

I have worked with some people this year that have tons of gold and platinum records on the wall. One in particular stopped in the middle of a session and said something that I've been hearing a lot lately. He said "Do you know how nice it is to work with someone who knows what the hell they're doing and can nail it in one or two takes?"

I replied half joking, "What? This is uncommon?"

His response, "No comment."

I knew full well what he meant. I also knew he was referring to a bunch of the people on his wall - names lots of us would recognize. I also knew it was a major compliment because his resume is so extensive it's like what hasn't he done. Additionally I know it means more opportunities will come of it. Much like a track I posted about here at JPF a month or so ago. I co-wrote and produced a track for a major library, that track in less than three months got over 100 licenses and uses. I think that's great. But it wasn't until I was at an industry Christmas party a couple of weeks ago when people found out about that and were floored. Apparently it's unheard of for a library track to get that many uses and licenses in a short period of time upon release. I can't wait until the 6 month mark (coming soon).

A buddy of mine that I've known for a while now, called me the other day. He was so excited to learn that after a very long time in the music business, he is now part of a Grammy nominated album this year. Mind you this man has won Juno awards in Canada, but never a Grammy nod. What took me aback is that I was the very first person he called to tell. I didn't have to ask why, but he told me it was because he knew of no other musician that works harder than I do and he wanted to share his excitement. The person he worked with and now has a Grammy nod with, is someone just about everyone knows and many might call a sell-out. But hey, it's a major accomplishment and it's damn cool.

My agent calls me a machine, in a very loving and yet serious way. Why? Because when it comes to going into the studio - I don't waste people's time. I do my homework ahead of time. She gets me good paying work and I want to make sure I show that courtesy to those people who are hiring me that I'm the right guy for the job. The end result, people are now coming to her asking for me by name.

I think that's what it all comes down to with Artists like Taylor or Justin, or Ke$ha, or Avril, or Ga Ga, or whomever is getting blasted for being popular, is we're not seeing the work that went into it. They work their ass off and suddenly get a dose of luck [that they likely made happen with hard work] to propel into the stratosphere. I have absolutely no problem with that.

Even JPF's fearless leader Brian had spent time with me in the past attempting to cajole me into doing things that I didn't think were right for me. I'll admit I resisted. When I stopped resisting and started working, that's when doors opened. He, along with others, saw stuff in me I didn't see. What I tend to see as the biggest obstacle for musicians when they have talent is: themselves.

In reference to Jim saying the problem is the ethics and the corruption, well sure - but often I'm reading your typing about mediocrity and this is the first reference I see of ethics and corruption. I have stories that I've learned from people who are some of the biggest players in the industry. Some things I've heard in how deals got done would make some people's skin crawl. However, I don't think this is exclusive to music. It likely happens in all big business. The thing is, you can choose to ignore it and wind your way thru it and possibly change the garden on your way thru. Or, you might shun it and be ok with where you end up. Or, you might play the in dirt and hope you end up ok.

Good point Mike. I do tell people I'm a songwriter/musician. When asked that question I used to say no. Now I say yes and have you heard [such and such song]? They may or may not say they've heard it. But what they do say is: where can I get it? And I let them know where.

p.s. too bad I didn't say yes to an extremely famous musician from a mega band I had dinner with a while back when he asked if I had written anything he'd heard. I'm sure I'll meet him again and change that. He's a real nice bloke from the U.K.

..... Has anyone here ever told somebody, like a dentist or doctor or cashier or someone you had recently met at a party or event.....

I do. If they inquire, I launch into an intro of Justice.


Tom

Worthwhile discussion all around. I appreciate the various points of view.

Tom

OK I have taken enough crap from all of you...I will spell it out for the hard of thinking.

This pop business that you all hold so dear is run by crooks and con artists.....they control everything...they say what is released and who will make it and who will not.....to think that the public have any say is naive to say the least.
The pop buying public are generally young easily led people who bow to peer pressure and whos tastes are moulded by those who exploit them. To say that mediocre acts that make bigtime is no biggy is more a fault of youyr poor taste and gullibilit than it is a flaw in me.
Some extreme;y naive people will say..... so what...what harm does it do and why am I so hot under the collar?.....well it is simple it affects all of us.....directly or indirectly.
1. It stops adolescents from hearing the better quality acts.
2. It prevents the better quality acts from getting the exposure and acclaim they deserve.
3. It directly affects our capacity to earn.
Now from time to time scammers on this site are exposed and we as a group try and protect folk from being scammed.
IMO The Simone Cowells etc who run and control the pop industry are some of the biggest exploiters and scammers ever and we all should be protected aginst them. Is that so wrong.
De ja vu I am dumbfounded that so many of yoy cannot see through this......either you are too stupid to see it or are afraid to say anything in case it causes harm to any crumbs these people might throw you in the fututre.

I am sorry for the rant but I have taken enough insults from people who shoulf know better. If any of you think that some of these pop stars are anything but mediocre...well that probably says more about your taste and talent than it says about mine.

Please excuse the typos but I wrote this in a rage and could not be bothered correcting them.

Jody, when I heard/saw your "Lady Gaga" vid and all the instruments you played (plus your wonderful voice) you reminded me of my buddy Haze, who played for 2 years with Pam Tillis and 8 with Darryl Worley. He can play any instrument and do any part in 1 to 2 takes, was revered in Nashville. Moved back here for health and family reasons, but if he was where you live, he'd be a hot commodity for sure. Good to hear of your successes, thanks for sharing them. It sounds like you worked very, very hard and kept plugging ahead. Your success is well-deserved.

Jim, everything you say is true, IMO, and the same goes for bands still performing in live music venues. Do you know how frustrating it is for a band like mine, who just nailed "Spirit of Radio" by RUSH, amongst other songs we do that NO ONE ELSE CAN to be passed over for jobs given to bands who play "Jenny, Jenny" and "Brick House"??? Joe Q. Public is RETARDED! Joe Q. Public wants to drink and mate...he (or she) has absolutely NO CONCERN about the quality of music, it's background noise anymore. GONE are the days of a band and an audience having a mutually respectful relationship, where the audience actually FOCUSES on the music being performed before them...and the band feeding off of the audience's energy (no big screen t.v.s in the background playing multiple sports, competing for the audience's attention). You might as well be bitching about swing dancing being a thing of the past, because that's now where live rock n' roll has gone.

My band had a choice...we could either succumb to playing "Mustang Sally", "Brick House" and "U + Ur Hand" or we could stick to our guns, do what we love, perform (PROUDLY) with a passion, and be anal retentive about the material we chose and learning it to a "T", but probably not getting to play out much. We chose the latter, and our mission statement was to be a "musician's musician" band. We are truly a band to behold. The talent is off the hook. Does anyone care? Only the handful of people who still care about music and real talent, who appreciate people who not only learned to play their instruments well, but continue to hone their craft as the years go on.

I'm dating a bass player in what I call a "cookie cutter" band. They do the typical dance music that all the mindless sheep in the bar herd out on the dance floor to writhe to until they find a "mate" for the night. This band plays every weekend. It makes me sick! The guy I'm dating wouldn't touch my band with a 10-foot pole. He has the utmost respect for us and comes to see us when we do play out, but he wouldn't be in our band. He's in it for the money, and he knows we'll never achieve that because of today's market. He HATES the music his band plays, but it pays the bills and it's better than waiting tables.

The music industry has ALWAYS been unfair and corrupt! Look at all the black people that got ripped off because the color of their skin prevented them from getting recording contracts. Along comes Elvis, rips 'em off, and becomes KING OF ROCK AND ROLL. My own beloved Led Zeppelin did the same thing! A lot of those black guys they copied died penniless. What about record companies signing a talented but lesser artist to their label so they can sweep them under the carpet, no longer a threat to the bigger artist they're promoting? What about "mediocre" artists whose families have enough money to buy 5,000 seats in an arena to make sure the concert doesn't get canceled, while an artist 10 times more talented can't even get heard?

I'm hoping that the internet and comapanies like I-Tunes put the power back into the hands of the artist. It's time the music industry changed, and people who still care about REAL music and REAL musicians have another shot at some long overdue recognition for their talent and hard work.

I normally wouldn't suggest such a thing
but;

Big Jim
Take a stroll around the countryside and if you find a plant that looks like this take it home and make some brownies with it. Eat some.
You will feel much better.

I just asked some of my bluegrasser friends, and they said everything you folks like is pure crap. Period, amen.

Thought you'd like to know.

pps Mike the point that you cast up about John Lennon is irrelevant....For the record I said that IMO he was over rated....that opinion is held by quite a few people..that is just down to taste. The Beatles influence on music is remarkable.....I just thought that Paul was the biggy in the Beatles and the rest were not in the same league. Again a view held by many.
Re Whitney..well for the record she was a fine singer pre drug days but sadly has lost it since...that is what I was referring to so me downing her was taken out of context.
You say you do not understand me...well it is mutual...you agree with me on most things yet give me a hard time when I speak of exploitation and medicrity. You say you almost barfed when listening to the crap on the radio yet I am wrong for saying they are mediocre. I would have thought that like me you would have experienced first hand this record industry exploitation and sufferd by it....it especially sticks in my craw when good talent is ditched and mediocre people get the gigs ..... and the guy who put them there could not care less as long as he makes money from exploiting them.
If I were ever offered a huge multi million deal by one of those rogues....yes I would be tempted to take it....that is human nature....BUT a huge part of me would be standing up for principles and morals and resisting it.

Like Dylan was a sellout when he went electric!

I'm not hard of thinking Jim. I merely have a different perspective. Name me an act you hold so dear that is being denied anything and expand my musical horizon. In case you weren't aware - I actually do a blog everyday for music called Single of the Day. I like to feature stuff that isn't as likely to get radio play (but I also feature hits too). I feature whatever tickles my ear and I like. Can't be too bad in my choices when I have over 1,000 people a day reading it on average. Who knows, I might like what you present enough to post about it.

I don't see how a huge hit by any artist affects the way I earn money making music. If anything it shows me what is making waves. I know I've posted about meeting and dealing with the real heavy weights in the business - many of them realize what they're doing, but they also know that the public doesn't have to buy what they're selling. They know it. I know it. But that doesn't stop them from making the push.


What they may be to more people is entertaining. That does not mean they're mediocre to everyone. It also doesn't mean I like all of them or everything they do. Since the elephant is in the room, I'll write what's being thought - Jody is a talentless hack that has terrible taste in music, can't write his way out of a paper bag and is contributing the mediocrity of the music business. While I don't share that sentiment, I don't care if someone thinks it of me.

For the record Jim, I was offered a record deal with a major label - on the condition I would re-record the music that had already been finished. It wasn't because they didn't love the songs. It was because their focus on what they thought would sell had shifted. While some of the music I had done on the album had overtones of the style they wanted, it wasn't something I was confident I could pull off and sell as an artist had I gone completely into that style. So I turned it down. It was at that moment that I learned it's a prediction thing and I wasn't unhappy with my choice. Their prediction turned out to be wrong and I didn't get caught in the crossfire.

That moment is what changed my attitude about the business. I no longer got angry or raged at it. That's when things changed for me and more opportunities happened and continue to happen.

I do not blame you Jody for wanting to be famous or making it big with your music.....sure everyone wants that. I do not blame the public for being fickle or for being conned. Entertainment/mediocrity call it what you want....IT IS STILL MEDIOCRE....I am sure you will agree that there are far better acts out there who deserve the limelight more.
I blame the suits...these guys could, if they went out of their way every so often and took a chance, bring us great talented new music.....sadly they do not.... they bring out drivel rehashed karaoke songs or a rip off of the previous hit by gaga or Bieber or Swift or whoever is flavour of the month.

I watched a TV program last night. Elton John was being interviewed by Piers Morgan....worth watching if you get the chance. In it Elton answered all kinds of questions candidly and honestly. He spoke of being gay, his marriage, his addiction Lady Di etc etc. He was asked about the record industry and about X Factor as he had publicly made some criticism of the show after appearing on it. He said he disliked the show intensely. He admitted it was exploitation and that some of those people should really serve an apprenticeship and gig first before appearing on these type of shows. He thought that the overall standard was not what it should be...he also thought that the record industry had changed dramtically since he started off. Nowadays the stars are more disposable and the record cos are less loyal and more ruthless than in the past. They will not take a chance on new ideas and keep putting out the same old formula.
People are gullible...that is a fact.....kids will buy anything if it is sold the right way and that is a fact.....I ask why should these guys get away with it....it is a simple way of thinking and a view held by a lot of people.
I have no problem with people making it...I think most get overpaid by a mile but that is another argument. I have a big problem with people who are supposed to be the cream, but clearly are not, making it. Surely that, and the huge size of the cake they have, deprives others from earnings.

PS as everyone else including you are plugging themselves please feel free to listen to my stuff at the link below....If you want to play it on your blog feel free. I do not expect any payment LOL

I wasn't plugging myself as much as I was using my situation to make a valid POINT! There's really nothing to plug...we'll never be anything more than an awesome local band that will go underappreciated because the majority of club goers are IMBICILES when it comes to what is real talent and what is mindless noise used as a backdrop for drunken mating calls.

But what is going on in the music industry is nothing new. Back in the '80's, a raw rock genius by the name of Patti Smith was constantly overshadowed by the likes of Missing Persons and Blondie, much like the raw rock genius of The Donnas today is overshadowed by Katy Perry and Lady Gaga. It seems that the purists were ALWAYS overshadowed by the less talented, less imaginative sell-outs that the record companies perceived to be an easier sell.

There was a band in Cincinnati called "The Raisins"...best thing to ever come out of this town, could have put ANY band on the radio to shame! Clive Davis refused to sign them because they were too "varied" in their music...he believed it didn't have enough of a uniform sound to identify the band...what a crock of sh!t!!! Adrian Belew later joined the band and they became "The Bears". Even with Adrian in the band, they were no where CLOSE to the incredible sound they achieved as The Raisins. I knew every one of their songs by heart, went to every gig faithfully as did hundreds of other people. Here we are, 25 years later, praying for a Rainsins reunion much like children wanting mommy and daddy to reconcile and remarry. The music industry in this case, ruined one of the finest bands ever to grace the planet, along with a lot of people's hopes and dreams for the band. It also forever ruined my confidence in the music industry.

Jim,

What pop business that we all LOVE so much?
First off there's hundreds of songwriters on these boards and like 10 of them if that, make pop music or at least showed us they do.

Your rage is with the music business, okay but how does it help reminding US of that in every post (that's a non technical discussion)? Are they on HERE listening to you? are the people who sign the crap on here? Are the pop stars themselves on here?
You think you are on to something something that we don't about. Are you protecting us from some huge conspiracy in the entertainment business ?

It's THE ENTERTAINMENT business and it mainly belongs to the young and the beautiful or made up to be beautiful. Not the best musicians or singers in the world. Yes I wish it was 1974 and I was 20 instead of 10, But it's not...

Let it go, even just a little

Heinz ketchup is the best ? Is it because it IS or were the lucky? Got it to market first? Branded their name ? Someone with money helped them advertise?
same with , I dunno, Mott's applesauce ?
How about Ford ? DO they make the best cars ? Are they the best ? Are their more talented engineers, less talented ?

You don't really know all of this because you evaluate based on the product that gets to the marketplace...NONE of it is really fair...Life isn't really fair.

Music is NO different ... luck, no luck, talent, entertaining, not entertaining...if people enjoy it, they enjoy it ...who's who to tell people WHAT is entertaining?
Some love the news, some hate it
Some love "Grey's Anatomy" some hate it
The people that love it don't find it mediocre ...
It all depends on your PERSPECTIVE ...
These types of threads just keep repeating over the years, same arguments...Bob Young, Graham Henderson, Brian Austin Whitney, same thing, same discussion...nothing ever changes...BECAUSE
1 people have MILLIONS of entertainment choices
2 people are mostly interested in talking and bonding when they're out
3 Everything has already been done, really in "rock n roll"
4 Every story has been written lyrically, we just try and tell a story in a "fresh way"... nothing I've heard in forever has been "revolutionary"

The difference from Big Jim's theory to everyone else's is really just semantics...and not relevant to real life anyway...
This is mediocre, this is good, this isn't...It only lingers for a moment anyway, then yields to the next thing you have to deal with in life....AND whatever you remember being "THE BEST"? IS THE BEST... to you ... and isn't that what really matters?

OK Mike I will let up.....but the entertainment industry does not and never will belong to the young and beautiful....it belongs to the old and ugly...the suits.
I hope that those who sing the praises of those mediocre pop stars and the people who exploit the industry let up also....red rag to a bull.

ahh...you guys

How about a little reason?

Tastes in music are, by their very nature, subjective. Big Jim is right when he calls Beiber's music mediocre. Beiber's fans are right when they call it awesome. Both are wrong if they believe their opinion is definitive.

Polly is correct when she calls her band "awesome" and the Raisins "the best." She's wrong in calling others, who don't share her opinions, "imbeciles." Everyone else is right to be less than impressed by the music that moves her.

It's all subjective. Write and make music that you like to the best of your ability. You'll always have one fan that way.

Said with a jokingly laughing voice:
Oh yeah that's right the people inside the business like the A&R department are old, they DIDN'T grow up listening to music from the 80's 90's & 2000's

If they were born in 1980 and it's 2010 that makes them thirty years old. Are we getting it yet? Do we realize that certain aspects of the world do not belong to us. You either step away, do your own thing, or find some way to fit in if it's something you don't want to let go of. Yet Jim you feel all this heat from something your not involved in and constantly tell us you want no part of.
"I do what I do, I make a living I'm happy" etc...

I know I don't praise mediocre pop stars but I give credit where credit is due and what it's due for. I always respect hard work and commitment no matter what someone is making. There is a time for everybody to whine and complain but if it never stops it can become something that reflects very negatively on a person.

Peace
Mike

You will be pleased to hear this is my last word on the subject.
I am part of the industry...albeit a small part. I write songs and I perform in front of audiences I do it as a full time job....Perhaps it is you that does not get it.....Mediocrity and apathy has spoiled the industry. There is nothing worse than people who just accept things saying oh well nothing to do with me I cannot change it. I am not so much a whiner as a protester. I protest against the corruption I see and am trying to change things....I want to hear great music on tv and radio rather than mediocre songs performed by mediocre people. Now folk can write and perform great songs till the cows come home...but if nobody gets a chance to hear those songs we are stuck with the present system. We as musicans can do something...we can educate folk...show them how badly the industry is run....and show them how it could and should be run. That is what I am trying to do....Now I may be wrong about the way I am trying to do it.....but I am not wrong about the things that are wrong with the industry and for wanting to change it....Implying that I am out of touch because of my my age and the music I was brought up with has nothing to do with the current state of the industry....that is purely down to the way the industry is misrun by the people who control it. The dollar sign has won over providing a service and promoting talent. providing good quality music used to be the hallmark of the record companies. Now it is just making money and making as much as possible foras little outlay as possible. When a young teenage kid who cannot sing in tune has to lip sync to hide his inability yet makes millions from doing it....well something has to be said and something has to be changed.
Sitting back and allowing it to happen is not the answer....

Big Jim, substantively I will disagree with you with regard to tween/teen songs. The internet has dramatically lessened the influence and control of the the large companies over what the tweens and teens like. A few examples:

1) The Jonas Brothers were pushed heavily by Disney to be their premier Star - to replace Miley Cyrus. They only succeeded partially. Many tweens and teens simply did not like their sound or singing.

2) Justin Bieber came up from the grassroots. He did have help from Usher, but Disney did not pursue him. He succeeded largely by word of mouth from tween to tween based on his Youtube videos. It was interesting to see the progress. Justice was an early fan of his - liked him before he got any real national publicity. She advocated for him at her school and with her friends. His video, Baby, Baby is the most watched YouTube video ever.

3) Taylor Swift was not chosen or pushed by the record companies. She pushed her way in. You know the rest of her story.

4) Big Time Rush is the new boy band that is hot. They pushed their way in and the tweens and teens are choosing them over the Jonas Brothers.

Bottom Line, is tweens and teens are more sophisticated than you think. They are fully aware that Disney and Nick try to push singers at them - and they deal with it.

Just because you don't like something, does not mean that someone else should not, or that the other listeners out there are stupid or have bad taste.

Tom

[quote=BIG JIM MERRILEES] I am not so much a whiner as a protester. I protest against the corruption ...


Big Jim, or it could be that you have different tastes and resent those who like music that is different that what you like. I like:

Miley Cyrus
Taylor Swift
Demi Lavato
Miranda Cosgrove
and even some of Justin Bieber

Do you think that I am controlled by the corrupt powers that be?

Tom

Tom, back to how you started for a second...It matters to me that people don't like my music. I understand that I can't please everyone, but I strive to. If I don't, where does my audience come from?

General Statement-There's no reason to be jealous that the tweens and teens are buying $2 ringtones by the millions from kids that rich producers advertised for and put up money for. That has nothing to do with me.
Everyone has their niche and there are plenty out there. I just need to find an empty one at the right time and get myself in.

Coalminer,

To me, it also matters that people like my music. It just doesn't matter if some of them don't. I think this is what Tom is getting at. Don't worry about the naysayers. Follow your heart.

I learned a great lesson years ago. My ex-wife's mother used to get on me all the time about my mustache. She'd continually complain that I should cut the "silly thing" off. One day, when my ex and I were going to her mother's for dinner, I decided to shave it off, just out of respect for her mother. We sat through the dinner and retired to the living room for coffee and conversation. Just before we were ready to leave, I asked her mother if she noticed anything. "No," she said. I told her I shaved off my mustache. She said, "Now you need to cut that silly hair." It was a profound learning moment for me. I stopped shaving that day.

Follow your heart. Once you find your niche, there will be plenty of people who will by glad to tell you why it is not good. Don't listen to them. Instead, find people in your niche and, out of those, listen to whom you choose. If you're a tennis player, don't get a golf instructor. If you like reggae, don't listen to a bluegrasser's opinions of it. Find mentors and build a team of like-minded, successful people. Ignore the control freaks. Don't cut your hair. Follow your heart.

His hair is a little on the shaggy side.

So that's where I screwed up.
I cut my hair.
And Shaved the beard.

But the beard is back

No I like all kinds of music...as long as it is performed well by talented people....nuff said.

Big Jim, I think you might agree with this gentleman's take on the industry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZazEM8cgt0

I do. But mainly I stick to the reality I see, which is that the upper reaches of the music industry--much like a million dollar lottery--don't interest me nearly as much as the "middle class" of musical acts--the great bunch of independent acts who are selling records, touring, selling out mid-size venues, making enough money to live comfortably and even retire on if they invest wisely, and--most importantly--are making fantastic new music.

Mark, the very thing Zappa is saying is opposite of Jim's argument. I recall Jim saying it's the old fogies creating the problem. Zappa is saying it's the young 'hip' guys that are too conservative. But I could be wrong.

In my experience. I've been on the inside of the offices that people want to get into. The reality is, it's now a team effort to make decisions. Meaning an A&R guy might like something, but he won't say he/she does. Instead they'll pass it to another A&R guy to ask: What do you think? Then when it gets around the whole office, they'll have a powwow on it and attempt to do a vote to see how many like it.

Sadly they all have stacks and stacks of CDs of music to get thru. When they say they have tons of CDs in the offices, they're not lying.

They do it that way because they are afraid of losing their job. Thus they're less likely to stick their neck out and go with the love of the music. It's very rare for someone to stick their neck out. Fortunately I've seen it - unfortunately it didn't pan out when someone stuck their neck out for me. It's business. It's the people that don't get it and only want to put the music out into the market that really help move the business in a new direction. This happens, not at a pace most of us want to see.

I agree with you Jody....the suits (I refer to anyone who makes a decision in the industry as a suit, AGE IS IRRELEVANT) are the ones who make decisions and few will take a chance on something experimental or new or different.
Jody the interview with Elton was more what you were saying.....The guys in the sixties and seventies were old and cigar smoking...they had no clue about music but they asked young folk who did...they took a chance and generally were pretty loyal or more loyal than nowadays.

Mark you spoke about upper reaches and middle reaches....I had to laugh.....In sport the upper reaches employ only the top athletes...whilst maybe some on their way up or on their way out play in the middle reaches.....In music/entertainment they seem to put the minor leaguers in the top division and the big hitters in the middle or lower leagues...how can the top league in music still be a multi billion dollar industry?....the world has gone NUTS.

Jim, I think that you made the point well. I don't expect you to like these singers and completely understand if you don't.

Tom

Tom I do not mind folk singing out of tune I see it at karaokes all the time. These folk generally are not considered multi million dollar pop stars. What I do not get is how some people who sing out of tune or lip sync to hide singing out of tune can justify the huge fame and rewards they receive. Out of the list you have provided I have seen most of them sing well out of tune and a few lip sync. What do you think?

Big Jim, I feel like I can count the megastar acts on my fingers...whereas there are thousands of other recording artists, doing well and readily available in my record store. Why should I care about only a handful?

More to the point, what can you do about it? Vote? Opine? It's all pointless distress to me. I'd rather record music than move mountains.

"Why should I care....."
Morals and principles......these handful that you refer to go strongly against mine......Apathy and ignorance are the things that stops folk from caring. It is the what allows folk to get away with things they should not get away with.
I am not asking you to change your attitude just see where I am coming from. Perhaps if more thought like me then less folk would have to swim upstream.

Hi Jim

Just wanted to drop back in and apologize if I came across to harsh. I did not mean anything hurtful. It's sooooo much easier to explain passion, emotion in person. I know you know that, in a room we'd be laughing, cursing, shaking our heads agreeing so much that we'd be shocked when we disagreed.

Either way it all ends with a handshake pull in for a hug.

Mike

Mike...you know me by now..I speak my mind and I have strong opinions, morals and principles....I respect and admire fellow music lovers....even if I disagree with them...I NEVER bear grudges or cast things up. I am an Atheist and Socialist...I despise hypocrisy, corruption, exploitation and folk who amass millions whilst others starve.
I will be the first to help anyone in any way I can. I am thick skinned but am still surprised that some fellow JPFs can give so much grief over a difference of opinion. Can true music lovers and musicians really think that the powers that be are honest and honourable and that the mediocre folk hailed as stars really can be justified as being the cream of the crop?
As I said earlier.... that says more about them than as musicians and music lovers than it does about me.
The power of hype, peer pressure and marketing can never be underestimated.
Cheers...your big Socialist, Atheist, Scottish...... Pal.

PS.I look forward to the day we can meet and hug each other and swear at each other and argue and listen to music together. That would be some day.....maybe soon.

Mike I just re read the last part of my post....I am not gay...honest.LOL

Big Jim, I have no doubt that almost everyone sings out of tune a little at times. I think that all of the singers on my list above are good. I enjoy them --- and so do millions of others.

They don't care that you don't like them. They only care that millions do like them. That is the whole point of my original post starting this thread.

Tom

Exactly. Some folks use opinions as weapons. Some folks regard opinions as truth. The truth is: if you can't prove something substantively, then you can't prove it qualitatively. And you can't prove art. Some folks, for example, like things out of tune. But most folks do not. So we tune vocal recordings, just like we tune guitar strings. I liken the vocal tuning revolution with the advent of the electronic guitar tuner of the seventies, and with the tempering of the scale back in Bach's time.

So folks for various reasons, social, political, peer groupings, cultural, religious, historical, and simply preferential, will prefer one unquantifiable form of art over another. Artists, who, by nature, want to please folks, are often swayed by these various opinions. I believe that is a mistake. Artists should choose their paths based on their individuality, they should follow their hearts and not be lead to alter or assess their art based wholesale on the opinions of others, but rather to consider the opinions of others as items which may be accepted or rejected.

That's my opinion, and I'm doggone RIGHT!!!!

As a footnote to Jody's post:

I did spend a lot of time talking and more often arguing with Jody about the fact that he had all the talent he needed except for the ability to listen to constructive criticism and informed advice that could help him. I only wish I could have gotten through to him sooner. But with all the changes in the way people discover music, it may not be too late for older artists to still find an audience. A clever video (which Jody has) could be enough to get folks to check you out. Then it's up to your music to close the deal. Jody has a commercial voice that sounds like a lot of artists who have had big commercial success. If I were him now, I'd be milking that doing voice work for video games and for TV/Film music where they can't afford a major label artists but still want that commercial sound. Meanwhile, he can perform and produce excellent music. And now that he's open to writing more commercially pleasing material as well, he is a great candidate to carve out a good living for years to come in a very tricky marketplace.

Brian

Jim,

It's better for them to be in an uproar than to be indifferent.. that's when people really don't care what you say.

Brian

Mr Dunbar. your phrase "... unquantifiable form of art..." hits it square. Exactly.


Tom

Tom I pride myself on being able to sing pretty much in tune as do most pro singers I know....I have been striving to sing in tune for over forty years......I check often for pitch when I record anything so as long as my ears and Melodyne are still reliable then I rarely sing out of tune because very few times does anything ever need tweaking.
But you may have hit upon something.....
"Millions of people prefer out of tune singing".....okey dokey I will give it a try....gonna be hard for me to sing out of tune as old habits die hard but what the hey....I could do with the extra fans and income it automatically will get me.
Thanks.

I am only joking but hope you get the point.