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Often (OK always), when I post songs, I get very good constructive criticism. Quite a few times the comments are "try to make the chorus stand out" or "really try and 'rise' into the chorus", or "this song really needs a bridge to break it up and keep it interesting". All extremely valid, and helpful!

Fast-Forward to 15 minutes ago.

Listening to Sirius satellite radio...."Piano Man" by Billy Joel comes on. Oh man, one of my all time favorites. As I'm listening, a bolt from the blue! The verses and chorus not only share the same chords, they share the exact same melody!!! There is no difference at all.

Another song comes on ("The Air That I Breathe" by The Hollies), then on the next song, it HAPPENS AGAIN!

"Tupelo Honey" by Van Morrison...the chorus and verse are the same. Exactly the same. Three songs, and two have this structure!

Now I don't feel so bad about my own writing, LOL.

EDIT: OH COME ON! Just as I posted this, "People Get Ready" by Rod Stewart came on. Same damn thing! Was it really that rampant back in the early 70s???

-Mike


Last edited by Strat1958; 11/12/10 03:27 AM.

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Mike,

The thing that you have to remember that in all of the songs you name there is a clear line of deliniation between the verse and the chorus. In {Piano Man" there is a decending scale which sets up the full singalong effect of the chorus. That is what makes it stand out. In most songs there is a very definate part that connects the two and you will find in layering they are very distinctive.

So while they might have the same chord structure, the singalong effect in all of them give a very huge difference. You don't have any problem differentiating them do you? and there is another clear line of deliniation between the end of the chorus into the subsequent verses.

In most modern music, particuarly country, there is usually a channel or lift, that separates the actual verses and the chorus. It is usually a two line part that lifts up into the chrous. Most of the time there is a distinctive turnaround as well.

There is a change in most of today's music in that it is harder to get and keep the attention of the audience.We are bombarded by more images, internet, 24 hour television channels, video games, Podcasting, movies, etc. People have shorter attention span so there is a "Tell me something I don't already know" type vibe. There are also more people doing music than every before with billions of songs on the Internet alone.

So, yes, there are songs in the past that have similar chord structures, but there is a very self evident aspect of the chorus, which sets it apart from any similarities.

MAB

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Rules are there to be broken......BUT sometimes they have to be obeyed. I wrote a song with no chorus at all(I deliberately set out to break the rules) it worked and IMO worked well.....check out "Unfinished Letter" on my Soundclick. It has no chorus but a rise to a middle eight.
The golden rule is to keep the listeners attention and stop them from being bored....lifts choruses...pre chorus...bridge... middle eight, etc etc are all tricks that we should have in our songwriting armoury....does not mean we have to use them ALL the time. The format should work for the song, suit the song and its mood...that is the only rule which should be adopted.

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A while back I read a book called 'Listening to Classic American Popular Songs' (by Allen Forte ) that gives a quite thorough analysis of songs from the 'golden age' of songwriting, i.e. the Twenties through the Forties. I'd recommend it, by the way -- it's an interesting read despite the clunky title.

Anyway, the thing that most struck me is how the accepted 'rules' have changed since then. Now everyone jumps into the hook, wants to grab immediate attention, whereas the accepted format then was an introductory verse or two leading into the meat of the song. A more civilized and less rushed age, I suppose.

I was intrigued enough to try my hand at writing in that style but recognize that it isn't what anyone much wants these days. But, hey, if those 'rules' were good then, why not again? smile Or any other rules, for that matter, as long as the structure ultimately makes some sort of sense.

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Originally Posted by Stephen Brooke
the thing that most struck me is how the accepted 'rules' have changed since then. Now everyone jumps into the hook, wants to grab immediate attention, whereas the accepted format then was an introductory verse or two leading into the meat of the song. A more civilized and less rushed age, I suppose.
Yep, that’s radio for you! Who knows what will be the ultimate effect of current multimedia on song format?

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I just went and listened to Tupelo Honey by Van the Man (one of my favorite artist/singers). I think it is quite obvious when he is in the chorus -- especially on the 3rd V/C and 4th V/C. The song comes in at a quaint 7 minutes.

Kevin


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I wrote one of those too, called "Lemonade", which on this board was both well-received while also taking heat for having a chorus/verse similarity.

I think a simple way to look at this is that you can do whatever you want, but your rulebreaking songs are the ones least likely to get picked up by a publisher. Once you're well-known as a writer with a good track record, maybe you can get away with this kind of stuff...or if you play in a band, go ahead and try anything too, and see what sticks to an audience. But if you're pitching songs as an unknown writer, you probably don't want to let songs with questionable issues like chorus/verse similarity stand in the way of initial acceptance. (Although I also think a completely outrageous rulebreaker of a song, if it's an undeniably great one, might also take you to the dance...but it would have to be a doozy.)

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I have one also that breaks most of the rules all in one song...Waiting By Her Side...it has alot of my heart in the words..and when I changed it to rhyme more,,more structure..it took away the heart..so I left it like I wrote it...and to me it's a good song...glyn

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There really are no rules, but we tend to copy successful artists because we want to be successful too, so we arrive in some sort of mass neurosis. If we don't do what they do, we won't make it.

It's been like that since at least the Elisabethan aera overseas, where Shakespeare, and many others wrote sonnets. The widely accepted forms has come to define what a lyric is. If you deviate too much from that, people won't recognize it as a lyric, and you borderline other genres.

Radio cares a lot about what people think, so the formats in Radio tend to be very rigid or idiomatic (what you name it, depends on your judgement), in order to mass communicate most efficiently.

But in order to stay a little fresh and keep folks interested you can fiddle with form, but at the most a 20% deviation, and this usually means deciding if you'll have the solos before or after the bridge, or replace the bridge with a solo section :-)

Therefore form is not the best variable to alter when you'd like to stay 'fresh', when you're writing commercial songs, because too much change in form can easily cause people to be dissapointed.

If you only write for yourself, or actually is an artist, you have more artistic freedom, of course. Most are just not that "priveleged" that they have a record deal, or don't care what others think.

And at the end of the day.. music is not rocket science..

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Personally, I push more people back to traditional structure. I do the same in teaching writing (English) for this reason.

Structure, rather than a constriction of creativity, often removes 1 barrier - how do I structure this? This allows you to concentrate on the writing itself. It gives you a clear place to go.

Now, as you become more comfortable with the writing process - and a song takes you in a different direction, you might part with structure more and be fine. But, structure in songwriting or writing is "comfortable" and accessible to the listener/reader.

While I believe all "rules" will be broken by all songwriters at times, I am usually very disappointed by songwriters who make it a point to "break the rules". Mostly because their song - song after song - comes across as haphazard and sloppy.

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Whoa... Just noticed I'm a "Serious Contributor". Given that I don't really write that often - not compared to most/many of you, I am surprised...

Also, I'm not that serious.... sometimes I am downright goofy.

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Hi Mike

I think understanding all the scenarios and situations that everyone pointed out here is the most important thing.
Like what Mark K said about being in a band. I was flicking through the TV and this band was on in concert on a major network.

As I waited about a minute and half for the intro to end it went into a verse. It was just ALL vibe not much voice or melody even just mood. This mood wasn't striking me so I changed channels cane back and there they were still in that mood. I waited again but...
Yet there they were signed to a major and on National TV.
No one cared about there arrangement at the label or in the audience. Nor did the band even lol
Are you writing for a band? Doubtful... Are you a writer in one?
Ah different story, different circumstances some may call it different rules.

It reminded me of that Sopranos episode where there's a band playing at the club and this old timer mob friend Hesch was a former music industry producer etc... He turns to somebody at the table and says "Don't they write choruses anymore" It's just the same thing over and over" Ya know choruses like "I Want To Hold Your Hand" or "She Loves You" smile

One of the problems in this subject sometimes has little to do with songs, it has to do with song books. It also has to do with RULES that you constantly hear about. They are only thrown in your face when 1- Your songs aren't very good 2 - When someone, anyone is considering them for a deal of some kind.

You must take things from the books like "The Art Of Writing Songs" etc.. certain things and use your own feelings to decide the rest. I remember being at work once on break and reading one of the songwriting books, I have read quite a few, it said THE TITLE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. At that exact time the number one song on the radio didn't have the title even mentioned in the song once... at all!

While they were right in 98% of the cases it still does not mean they are thinking for EVERYBODY and every situation. I do that and that's a big part of why I'm insane. lol Also tell the countless hits that started with the chorus "you can't start with a chorus"

For fun If you want to observe some cool older hit songs & formats check out stuff like "Why Can't We Be Friends" by War as a matter of fact War has great arrangements.

"Cisco Kid" - Every line is repeated starting with the chorus.
Cisco kid was a friend of mine,
Cisco kid was a friend of mine,
We went down to the border Rio grande
We went down to the border Rio grande

"Why Can't We Be Friends" - Again Chorus at the top, same line repeats 4 times then TWO line verses back to the chorus. Back and forth all the way.

Why can't we be friends
Why Can't we be friends
Why Can't we be friends
Why Can't we be friends

I know your working for the CIA
They would not have you in the MAFIA

Why can't we be friends
Why Can't we be friends
Why Can't we be friends
Why Can't we be friends

How about the GREAT band "Chicago" Go listen to "Saturday In The Park"
This is a MAJOR HIT on the radio every five minutes by guys who smoke! Completely smoke! smile
Check out that arrangement... And hey they go on and on.

So the 70's wasn't rampant "Anything" it was rampant EVERYTHING.
That's what pins it down to probably the greatest era in popular music overall. Always in a neck to neck battle with the 60's

A songwriter's first job is to recognize what there song needs to flow and "feel" right. The best it can be, EFFECTIVE!
When someone is LOVING it 20 years or more after your dead you really know you nailed it smile No matter how it goes
lol





Thanks!
Peace Mike
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If you drill down to the real objective, I think the powers that be want the listener to come away singing and remembering the chorus, hook and title so they can run to the store and buy the CD or download the song.

While a chord change going into the chorus is a common way to work toward that goal, it is not the only way. If bringing in the Mormon Tabernacle Choir meets that objective, nobody will care if the chords change.


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Mike, I really enjoyed your post - all great points.

Nowadays, I hear so much new music, and I say "it's just noise", or "you won't hear THAT one on the radio in 10 years"....but that's what they said about Elvis, Beatles and all that 70s music. Somehow, though, I think it's different. We DO still hear all that great 60s and 70s music on the radio. It was the era of the singer-songwriter, and the era of rock & roll writing/recording/performance pushing the established boundaries. Not as much of that nowadays. I sometimes fear that we've reached the end of the evolution of great music!

Just as I'm typing this, the radio is playing "The Long And Winding Road" by The Beatles. The granddaddy of rule-breakers.
Verse 1,
Verse 2,
Bridge,
Verse 3,
Instrumental break with the same melody as the bridge
Verse 3 again!

There is no chorus in this song, yet everyone knows it by heart, and it went to #1 on the Billboard chart. Of course, it was The Beatles....but still...
From Wikipedia:
"The opening theme is repeated throughout, the song lacks a traditional chorus, and the melody and lyrics are ambiguous about the opening stanza's position in the song; it is unclear whether the song has just begun, is in the verse, or is in the bridge."

All food for thought.

-Mike


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When I belonged to Taxi, the comment that I received most was the importance of differentiating the chorus from the verse.

I think it is also important to differentiate the bridge from the verses and chorus.

Tom


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Most Beatles songs are different than the way we now consider "normal"...they did a lot more ABABA kind of stuff, not always verses and choruses, just different alternating movements.

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Someone cited a 'rule' of: "Don't bore us; get to the chorus."

But if the chorus doesn't differentiate obviously from the verse, some change of the dynamic of the preceding verse, you won't know you HAVE gotten to the chorus.

After I've heard a melody or musical movement, and then heard it repeat, I'm ready for that differentiation. A third repeat is very likely to cause me to drift off to my own thoughts and realize later that I haven't been paying attention to the song at all. Whatever 'hook factor' it had in the first movement, and maintained through the second movement, I became 'un-hooked' in the monotony of repetition the third time.

A very engaging lyric may keep my attention past that demarcation point. But odds are it won't.

Verses function to do 'exposition' of the storyline, the characters, the 'character' of the characters. Once that function has been accomplished, it is time to get to the point, lyrically and musically. The function of the chorus is to get to the point.

There can be too much exposition, delaying getting to the point. The designated chorus can fail to get to the point, doing more exposition instead.

Song structure serves the function of not boring the listener by going on too long, of hooking them with lyrical ideas and melody, and maintaining the hook-factor, supplying their demand for interesting lyric, melody, and production. A song must have enough repetition to give it structure, enough change to keep it interesting.

As a songwriter, YOU are the first listener. YOU have to be hooked in the beginning, and you must continue to be hooked. Your sense of satisfaction with the timing of the chorus, and the content, the point being made, the change of dynamics, should guide you through the song.

Are you discriminating in what you write? Do you just accept line one? Then just accept line two? Or do you ad lib a line and reject it, ad libbing another line until you get one that truly hooks you? Then do you just accept the next line or do you keep exploring until the line that comes to you truly fits your story, advances your story as begun in line one, helps expose the storyline, to set up for the chorus? If you accept a vague line just because it rhymes and can be construed as relevant to the story, odds are you're not hooked, and your listeners won't be either.

Do you 'feel' the time is right for the chorus? One publisher said if you didn't get to THE hook in 47 seconds he turned you off and moved on to the next submission. As the first listener you should have a sense of when enough exposition has been done and that it is time for the chorus. And, you should have a sense of what the point is, what the chorus should say to sum up what the verses have set up for, THE hook.

There is a school of thought that starts with THE hook, some line they think has 'hook factor' and writes verses attempting to 'arrive' at that hook. Odds are, that idea is just that, the interesting idea that could be an interesting song, but is NOT the best line for THE hook, the title. It may be an inspiring first line, and, if you can conceive of a story around it, you may arrive at a much more interesting hook for your title, one that serves the summary function and makes sense of the whole song.

Explore and analyze songs that truly hook you, and see if you can discern how they did it. Why does it appeal to you? How does it maintain your interest?


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Hi Mike: (Strat)

What rules? To me there are no rules... just whatever works. Unfortunately, I've never discovered that aspect of songwriting or performing... LOL! Thanks for an interesting thread.

Dave

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I've really enjoyed the comments on this thread. Very well thought out discourses on the rules of songwriting, and how they have changed over the years. Thanks everyone for taking the time!

-Mike


Listen to my newest song... "Did Anyone Ever Write A Song For You?" on Soundclick
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I have sent songs to publishers who say they liked em, but sent them back saying they needed to be converted into a more recognizable form (ie., make it more marketable).

For me, the first time I heard Queen's "Bohemian Rapshody" I was amazed about how its unpredictability affected me. I was surprised about how much risk they took to move away from current trends. I had to keep listening to figure it out. It remains one of my fop five favorite songs ever.

Doug

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Doug you make a great point.....the fickle powers that be want something new, groundbreaking, different and fresh......when they get a song like that they usually reject it cause it is.....new groundbreaking and out of the ordinary.

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Thanks Mike

For the Beatles I often leave them out of discussions as examples as #1 They are so superior & first in so many areas it's not fair to mention them lol #2 They set the rules on making your own rules in the music industry.

But one of the BIG things that The Beatles did so well and naturally well was be VERSATILE. That is part of what makes songs and arrangements so inviting and takes focus away from finding flaws or things that don't make sense to a publisher or a cookie cutter A&R person.

You don't notice that "When I'm Sixty Four" goes from a continual verse into a bridge. The chorus/title slips in as an end phrase. This is done alot in songs but what makes this Beatle one so special?

It's like RAGTIME smile It's got that New Orleans bouncing band rhythm going 1&2 1&2
The instrumentation is key on top of the contagious melodies.

The Beatles had - HITS that were Seven minutes, songs in Blue Grass, Blues, Folk, 3/4 time 6/8 time, Starting with choruses, All kinds of feels & accents

Listen to the riff in "I Want You" she's so heavy....
The tuning and feel of "Dear Prudence" The difference from "Taxman" to Here Comes The Sun, Maxwell Silver Hammer to And I Love Her" "Blackbird to "Helter Skelter"

Just listen to "Admiral Halsey" by Paul and the arrangement the different feels and rhythm changes throughout.

These are things a Taylor Swift couldn't do & wouldn't be allowed to do even if she could, even with being a superstar.



Thanks!
Peace Mike
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I did this song, specifically to break the rules. It's linear in structure; no repeating sections.
I'm sure that I've posted it before, but it seems appropo in this thread:
"Tortured Artist"

By the way, there is a lot of great advice in this thread (as always). And, yeah, it really does depend upon what it is that you want to do with the song.

EDIT:
An odd aside: My publicity guy/radio contact man, suggested that this song be one of the tunes that we market to radio stations. However, I declined, based upon two things:
1. While I agree that "Tortured Artist" is a better song, overall, "Here" is a better overall choice for a single.
2. THE LANGUAGE!

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I could not tell exactly what was going on with that song Todd, but it was engaging for me. Felt like it should have been on a Sgt Pepper's like album.

Doug

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Thanks, Doug. That is very high praise, indeed (as far as I am concerned).

It does seem like this site is focused on writing songs that can be shopped to publishers and whatnot. And, while that is certainly a goal that is admirable, it's just not something that is practical for me. That's why I just try to keep myself interested. That's where odd structures like this come from.

And a lot of you were talking earlier about those songs whose chorus is really just the same thing as the verse, but with a slight change in instrumentation or dynamic. That is cool, too.

Ultimately, it's whatever catches the ear of the listener. Try to keep yourself interested in what it is you are doing and, hopefully you'll keep your listener's attention, too.

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I think for "Breaking-In" Folks like Most of Ourselves, "K.I.S.S."
is as Good A "Rule" as any.

Not JUST "Keep it SIMPLE, Stupid" but also "Keep It SHORT, Somebody!" (Even the Much-Revered Beatles started-off with "I Want To Hold Your Hand"...BEFORE their music changed & grabbed us by Our Lapels.) 3-Minute-Movie...EASY-to-grab Plotline...UNIVERSAL as-Hell. You get THAT figured-out...GET your fan-base, & THEN go out & get as Artsy as ya Wanna-be.

It's not really a Rule...it's more of a Survival Strategy...JMO.

Good Luck at Beating The Odds...even WITH The Strategy!
Best Wishes/Big Hugs,
Stan

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I can think of plenty of examples of successful songs that don't fit the standard "radio-ready" molds.

I think rigid structure is overrated. It's good to have a repeating part, like a chorus, but it's the verses that I enjoy the most. They're each different and bring different things to my attention.

Rises work sometimes and not others, bridges are sometimes necessary and sometimes erroneous. It all depends on the song, how it flows, and how many syllables you need to get your lyrics out.



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