JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Elton John: today's songwriters are awful

As for the listener and the radio this whole THEY decide what gets played is such nonsense I can't believe it's still brought up. Like they go around and take count and ask.

Very Plain & simple

#1- Are kids musically DUMBER today?

#2 - Were kids from the past musically smarter?

#3 OR DO WE LISTEN TO AND LOVE WHAT WE HEAR ON THE RADIO!!!!!!

Also please realize that for most of us and many of us a CENTURY of music is OVER!
in POP MUSIC You are dealing mostly with a sound, style and language you just simply cannot relate to at all. It is far removed from classical music, jazz, blues and TRUE Rock which is the BIGGEST melting pot of all music.

I SAW the band "YES" as my first concert when I was 13 years old the most talented and creative group of a five musicians one could ever see, EVER!

How did I know? Because I was so smart?? No There song "Roundabout" was ON THE RADIO

This fact can not be disputed lol

Mike there is a difference in quality between todays music and music of 60s 70s. Music from that era was ground breaking and in the main pretty good but occasionally some crap crept in.
Todays music is in the main crap with occasional ground breaking good stuff creeping in.

Yes Jim totally, Your being generous even, THEE CHART does not let much get in. Just read it, it's 80 - 90% Hip Hop & Rap
They just wont let other things get in... Look at the labels roster and see how. Only the Internet does that but they have the control over that as well for the most part and you better believe it.

A MAJOR LABEL is gonna put there ACTS on the first page of your Facebook, My Space, I TUNES EVERYTHING that is most popular.
So the kids are NOT going to see a GREAT Jazz singer they will see Kanye West Again & again!!

Occasionally you'll get a rare case like an Ingrid Michaelson type artist. Who I believe still wont sign with a major.

Jim I agree up to a point. But to be honest I just don't think this is true.
I go to writers nights here in Nashville.
The Bluebird, Douglas Corners or the Listening Room are three of the premier Writer's night venues (among others) who get wannabees from all over the world.
These are supposed to be the best folks out there. I rarely see anyone who could stand on the same stage with a Taylor Swift or Carrie Underwood and not to leave out the guys, pick one or two, Brad Paisley or Keith Urban will do.
Sorry but I have not seen anyone who even comes close.

heheh

Yep. Like they say Kevin.... Life gets in the way.
I missed Doak's last Sunday. I really wanted to go, too.

I could relate to that way of putting it, because the basic premise of making up new stuff is changed big time. You can do new weird alternative things, but that wouldn't be accessible enough for mainstream market, so we're stuck with a handful of nice progressions. The new stuff today is breaking up the punctuations and rhythms in new ways, but in notation nothing much is happening.. because it can't.

This is where I leave the path on these conversations...because that Main One, the one you predict will matter in 20, 40 years, appears to have become irrelevant to me. I no longer get annoyed at today's music, because I'm finding all the good stuff elsewhere. I'm getting my world rocked by Janelle Monae and LCD Soundsystem and Muse and Blitzen Trapper and My Morning Jacket and Dessa and Spoon and The Black Keys and Beck and Atmosphere and Sharon Jones & the Dap-Kings and Wilco and Belle & Sebastian and MIA and The New Pornographers and Neko Case and Prince and Of Montreal and even EXCEPTIONALLY great new stuff from old guys like Neil Young, Robert Plant, Elvis Costello, and--of all the beautiful surprises--Elton John and Leon Russell.

I won't argue that the big money is still in the Top Pop Charts, and I'll agree that what's there is not moving me much. But I would also say that no one listens to the same station anymore, and to cling to that old way that doesn't happen the same way anymore--that idea of everyone sharing the same experience--is like embracing the worst option and calling it fate. Everything we used to know is turning into something else, including the significance of charts.

I'm too happy with new music to worry about it. I'm too busy listening to good, challenging stuff to complain about the dumb noise you can find on the wrong radio stations. I'm having more fun now with new music than any time since the 70's. The good stuff is under the radar.

Bill,

Come to the Listening Room tonight or Douglas Corner tomorrow. I'll show you a few writers who can stand up pretty well.

MAB

Hi Mark & others

It's not the one I predict will matter it's the way it has always been, so how's that gonna change? Maybe it will somehow I'm just going by what i have seen since it's existence.
When they PAY some acts from the 50's to go on TV for a big reunion today they don't go digging into the obscure or underground scene. They go to the hits.
But really if your a follower or have an interest in pop music or pop culture that is what you'll find. Or if your in the music industry at that level, sales and charts count in your life.

You are referring to music that is popular (somewhat) I'm referring to Pop Music, I think that's what Elton John is referring to as well. You know he likes artists today I have heard him mention quite a few.

The royalty checks you get or don't get have a great impact on your your families future. Any cool or hip band or artists that says. "Yeah I'm glad we don't get played on mainstream radio all the time and the labels aren't interested in us and we don't want Gaga's money or stage budget of $250 GRAND per show" is full of CRAP!

But that doesn't mean there not happy and enjoying themselves.
No sense in complaining too much about what you can never have.
It's about keeping things in perspective, relevant and positive. Being glad for what you have.

Trying to guess what a particular generation likes, and comparing it to an earlier generation is absurd.

This argument is going nowhere.

Can't make it tonight but tomorrow at Douglas Corners is doable if I can get these old bones there. Installing a Shower Stall in a bathroom tomorrow.

Mark summed it up......He lists a whole bunch of sites and people that most pop buyers have never heard of.....or never will. That is the prob.....I am mystified that the powers that be choose the crap they do over the people who do write and perform great songs. I am sure that if these people were given the same break as some of the "pop" artists mentioned and reality TV talent show applicants they would blow them all out of the water.
Bill.....I cannot speak about the places you visit but if the standard is as bad as you say you need to get out more and go to different places. I travel a lot not just in the UK I regularly gig in Spain and Portugal plus occasionally other European countries. I see worthy talent all the time.

It's the lowest common denominator theory at work. There are so many great musicians out there as Mark mentioned. But few are household names because the media is seeking the largest audience of people possible using factors like shock and rebellion and beauty and sex......regardless of the musical qualities. That's why rap and hip-hop can exist and why Lady Gaga became a star after she changed from a talented singer-songwriter into a wild-looking sex-goddess.

mmmmmm - do I sound like my Lawrence Welk loving father talking about The Rolling Stones?

Bill,

Come on out tonight. There are five new artists I am working with in addition to myself and Jimbeau Hinson, who is the best writer I know. Should be a really cool show. A lot of the artists I have been working with are doing very well right now. And they are very talented.

What you have seen Bill, and what most people hear are a lot of mediocrity. We hear it in everything we do, and I will also be the first to say, a lot of things that are on the radio airwaves are not the greatest things ever written or recorded. Also there are some amazing people that get overlooked. With all humility, I feel I am probably one of them.
But that is life and happens in all walks of life. You deal with it. You find things you like and tune out things you don't.

On the writer's night situation for you Bill, the open mics and writer's shows are the very first things people do when they move to town. So you get mostly newcomers and people who really have no other outlet for their music. They don't get publishers interested, and it is more about being in the community than being hit writers.

Nashville is a victim of it's own successful reputation. It actually treats writers pretty well, opening up the doors, letting pretty much anyone in. That is why there are open mics and writer's shows all over town. And if you like to be a part of us, we like you to be here, and will be very accomodating. But we are also victims of everyone whose Mother, Father, friend,brother, cousin, teacher, etc. tell them that "they are good and should move to Nashville."

The Internet has brought millions of "Karaoke Cowboys and Cowgirls" who rhyme words like Dr. Suess and think that constitutes song writing. It does not. Nor does it constitute great or even mediocre performance.

You see a lot of that. There is such an overwhelming supply of writers it never runs out. That is what you see on these writer's shows. And even things like the Bluebird are overwhelmed by the numbers that come. There is a standing list of 25,000 people who have auditioned for the Sunday night show and are waiting to play three songs on that night. It takes over a year to play there after auditioning.

So there is going to be a LOT of average or below average writers, artists, that get on the shows. The really good or great ones dissapear to very specialized things. But I have shown you a few of them. Beer for breakfast and other things.

So they are out there. Just have to look for them and never give up because you go to some mediocre nights. Have you never eaten in a resturant that really wasn't any good? That happens too.

MAB

I've been thinking on this while I was digging the trench for the new Bathroom drain to tie it into the septic.
Digging trenches is always a good time to think.

I think what I mean is there is a very fine line between the people we see at open mics and venues who are trying to make a dent in the business and the people who are the "stars".
But that fine line is really very very hard to cross over.

It's like fishing for crappie. I was fishing for crappie the other day and the legal size limit for Crappie is 10 inches.
Now I know that lake has a lot of Crappie that are over 10 inches. And a 9 3/4 inch crappie is gonna taste just as good as a 10 inch Crappie. So when you measure that crappie you try to stretch it to 10 inches so you can keep it and have it for dinner.
But alas it is not to be. 9 3/4 inches is 9 3/4 inches no matter how you measure it. And there are a heck of a lot more 9 3/4 inch crappies than there are 10 inch crappies.

You wouldn't think there would be that much difference would you?

Well there is. Once a crappie gets over 10 inches they start putting on girth. They get fatter and the fillets are much nicer.

Entertainers are like that. There are a lot of really good entertainers out there. REALLY good entertainers. But to make that step to star quality is just a fraction of an inch out of their reach but it might as well be a mile because they are just barely good enough no matter how you slice it.
I was at the Bluebird a while back. Of the performers on the stage. One a Big Star, One a star, One who I know has won at least a couple JPF awards and tours regularly.
As good as that person was there was a difference. The "Stars" had just a very fine edge over the award winner. It was subtle. You couldn't even measure it but it was there non the less.
That's what I mean.

Are there People who are good enough? Absolutely. MAB comes to mind. He's the real deal. I think Mark Kaufman is but I've never seen him perform live so that might be the difference. Big Bad Jim might be right up there. But Like Mark I've never seen him. (But he's a liberal Scot so that might be a strike against him )
Mike Dunbar. Very talented guy.

There's are more here and in Nashville and all over the world.. Why don't they make it to the big show? I have no idea.
Maybe it's that 1/4 inch

"I hate to destroy a myth but am going to anyway.....At one time recording artists had to tread the boards and learn the craft of writing and performing. No artist was even considered for a record deal unless they were already a seasoned pro, had served an apprenticeship and had a popular following already"- Big Jim

Hmm... I always thought record companies in the past were willing to take chances with unknown artists that show potential. They'd take an artist in the rough and smooth over the rough edges. Today it's totally different. Your act has to be complete and ready to go - and have a fan base already established to boot.

John

John there is absolutely nothing ready to go about most of the top pop stars of today.....Heck most of them had never performed in public before entering whatever reality show shot them to fame. Amongst others there is a guy called Wagner who is currently appearing on X factor.... the Brit equiv of A Idol......he would not seriously be encouraged to sing in in a local pub Karaoke he is so bad. Check him out....that is what these so called experts like Simon Cowell call talent and want to promote. Whilst folk laugh at him others who are talented musicians are being denied a legit spot on TV.

Gotta agree with you about the reality show/American Idol method of becoming a star.

Not a singer (yet), but look at Kate Gosselin. Her own TV show, Dancing With the Stars, talk shows. I should have had my wife take fertility pills in her younger years. I might have a successful career by now.

Any National publicity, good or bad (especially bad), can launch a career today. The longer one stays in the tabloids, the bigger the career.

John

Big Jim
I don't know where you get your information but you really need to verify before you make general statements.
American Idol Carrie Underwood was working on a deal with Capital records in 1996 NINE YEARS before she won AI.

Kelly Clarkson had performed mostly in Musicals in School before winning AI but she was no beginner. She had been offered a scholarship in Music from Berkley. Heck she was only 21 I think.

Malinda Dolittle has been a successful Backup singer since the late 90's and a music major in Nashville She was working it just like Stars such as Garth Brooks before he got his break.

Chris Daughtry has been a pro since the 90's He was in a band called Cadence, They produced one album

These are just a few off the top of my head that had careers before American Idol. They were not people who just woke up one morning and said Hey! I think I'll try out for American Idol.

It has been discussed extensively here that it take a lot of hard work and even more luck to make it to the big time. Or you make your own luck.
You yourself have said there are thousands of people who can sing better they just have not had the breaks. That is who these people are.

I do agree that exploiting the sad cases that audition should be stopped.

Simon Cowell is not in business to promote great art... he's in business to create massive commerce.. and he's doing it very well.... on the other hand, I've donated the last 14 years of my life supporting and promoting the best art I come acroaa.. but because commerce is not my focus, I don't make money... instead I have made a wonderful life...

Brian

It's not been stated, but it's well worth mentioning, that most people aren't asked to sing songs out of their comfort zone, let alone in front of millions of people. Plus learn choreography and be submitted to live critiques in front of those same millions.
How many have the stuff to do that?

By the way. Jim and Mike, you guys are officially now in the categories of cranky old men who only love music from "back in the day" just as the Beatles and Elvis before them were crap and not as good as the music that came before. You guys remind me a bit of the two old puppets on the Muppet show who sat up there and complained about all that loud Rock music only substitute Rap music.

There is more FANTASTIC music being made out there (and enjoyed by kids) than ever before in any time in history. And kids know WAY more about who is cool and who isn't than any of us over 28 do. That's how it has always been. Though a few of our favorites were on the radio, most of us in different time frames found the music we really loved elsewhere. The charts today are less representative of what kids are listening to than they have ever been since they started because it takes a tiny fraction of the number of sales to make the charts than it used to even 10 years ago. Free music has ruined the commercial music business, but it has exploded music as an artform as never before. The stars we hear about now are not music stars per se, they are media stars with a much different criteria to make it than before. But make no mistake, there is awesome music being made in more genres by more people than ever before. Kids are great about rooting out where their cool stuff is and it's rarely just what is on the radio. Sure, they ALSO listen to some of those artists because they are part of media just as magazines and the Midnight Special and even Saturday Night live used to be for older folks. Make no mistake, the Monkees, for a time, out sold the Beatles side by side when both were still active and releasing music. To suggest today things are worse is to date yourself as out of touch like our Grandparents might have been (though my 86 year old Grandma is still quite hip. And my wifes 70 year old dad recently went and saw Kid Rock who ia one of his favorites so not all older folks are out of touch).

It's good to see Mark is still current with an ear that goes backward and forward with equal ease. The real difference today is that one person with a laptop can produce music that equals the biggest budget studios of yesteryear. Even the terrible music of today often sounds sonically just as good as anything a label released in the past.

I've seen Lady GaGa and she's very talented. She's an entertainer, unlike most artists coming out today. She's the equal of Elton John on stage and really took the mantle from both him AND Madonna and is moving forward, just as the Beatles picked up from Elvis, and the many Blues artists they admired. If you find today's music lacking, in truth it's probably just time for you to move out of the way of youth and progress. And most kids I know ALSO have artists from the 50's, 60's, 70's on their players and they LOVE the 80's, just as many in our age group loved the 60's. They are also more likely to have Classical and World music on their iPods than those of us in older age groups. The little kids with ONLY rap music on their iPods can blame their parents since at that age their clueless and musically lazy parents can't be bothered to get them better stuff. But buy the little kids in your life a subscription to a monthly music service that gives them anything they want and they'll find the cool stuff from all eras.

Brian

"Rock 'n Roll: The most brutal, ugly, desperate, vicious form of expression it has been my misfortune to hear."

Frank Sinatra


cheers, niteshift

..But.."He Did It HIS..WAYYYyyy"...heh!

&..Frank WAS the ORIGINAL "Teenagers' Heartthrob". Rumor & Legend has it his career got launched when Promoters hired a mob of screaming Young Gals to greet him on onea his earliest gigs as a Recording Star. Worked-Well-Enough..

So..when the Beatles arrived in the US, THEIR Promoters tried the Same Stunt. Surprise-Surprise..eh?

There will ALWAYS be teenagers around who BUY Music..in quantity.
&..heh..Taylor Swift PROVES It. To bitch that "Kids don't KNOW what they're buying" has a pretty hollow-ring to it, when you look back at what WE Older Critics blew OUR allowances-for.

(I'm STILL Fond Of "Louie-Louie"...Hell, you can STILL Dance to it & "Get In The Mood"...) &..I think that IS still "What sells today"..even tho the Tempo and Genres have maybe changed a wee-bit.

TODAY's Kids have..for instance..Pop Hits like "Like a G-6" by Far East Movement. Like "Louie-Louie", it's got a very Infectious Groove/Heavily-Danceable. It's got some Vague, Sexually-Mysterious Lyrics (With a "Mile-High Club Incident" snuck-in) to worry The Parents...and lots of Club-Participation-Moments all woven in, too..along with some Champagne Drinking, as-well, to further raise-eyebrows. Production's Excellent, IMHO. 2,616,694 You-Tube Visits..& a Radio Hit.

It's JMO Musically-Superior-to..& even more Sexually-Sophisticated-than..The Beatles' "Why Don't We Do It In The Road". I think The Kids are Alright..these days...Musically.

They just have More to Sift-Through. (& yeah, Labels STILL use the Same Old Tricks..which..aw gee..Still Seem to be Working to this day..) But as Sonny & Cher once sang.."The Beat Goes On".

Best Wishes from an Old Guy,
Stan

Hi Bri

You should clarify which Mike... For a second there I thought you might of thought that I don't own, listen & know all kinds of current music. That be quite a misconception. Almost as big a one as thinking that I only write,play,produce Rock music and old sounding Rock music. lol

I think Elton was referring to the main chart, As I'm referring to the main chart, I'd bet anything that he doesn't feel that way about all modern music and songwriters and bands just like you can bet anything that I don't.

Mike

Good point Mike I am also referring to the main charts.....personally I think there is some great new music out there. Some of it takes a bit of finding.
The charts and the corrupt people behind them have no interest in music as an artform...it is only a struggle about MONEY and power.

Hi Jim

I'm not talking about an Evil Musical Empire or sweating a hostile takeover lol and I'm not really looking at or focusing on the politics of the music business. Or the lack of time and experience a 10 year old Pop singer has who's closing in on a One Hundred Million Dollar enterprise.

I'm talking about the music. The music that gets THE MOST EXPOSURE.
And ALL I'm talking about is the Billboard Top 100 Chart Music.
It's just a topic a subject that interests me. Used to interest me a lot more when it spoke my language.

Let me explain something about what music means to me. I LOVE music always have, How much so? Well lets just say I have put it before everything else in my life. EVERYTHING! One day recently my Mom who's 87 years old bless her, she never stops, was listening to a mixed CD my sister gave her. All kinds of popular songs from since whenever man.

I started singing along, she smiled then I sang the next one, and the next one. She said "you know most all those songs are all where before you were born or you were a baby" Then I went over to the CD player skipped tracks in order and sang all 24 of them...

She said "See when you really love music you love all music"

As well as specific styles of music which i LEARNED ABOUT because they were POPULAR I have always loved Pop Music.

Naturally I have my preferences just like anybody else.
But being a "lover of music" and a MUSICIAN as well as a SONGWRITER a producer and a recording engineer. And a person who shops there music and has shopped performed and pitched there work to major record labels and personal including the biggest in the world, and as had the fortunate blessing to have been inside and work with some of them as well for a living. I look at things in quite a number of ways. Lots of people express there thoughts about other peoples business. This has been my business since forever.

I don't think one can see or feel it all from any more closer a perspective or perspectives. Only a LEVEL of the perspective and that level would be SUCCESS. Yeah "Success matters when it comes to your career or living at ANY career. It effects your whole life. Yet throughout it I am seldom spared the "It's all about having fun" and my favorite silly statement of all time
"Don't you just do it for the LOVE of music"

Anyway it's hard for OTHERS to rate that success without MONEY, and Popularity,fame involved no? They don't care if your a good person or husband or parent. So that's the difference to me. I road on the bus and flew on the plane and took the big stage as an opening act, had the song on the B -Side of a hit record. Had time to take a good look at the main act the headliner.
Worked at a record label and watched a kid with a turntable and a bag of sampled loops get paychecks and advance.

Anyway I have NO PROBLEM with silly goofy fun loving songs all over the radio. It's part of the fun and what POP MUSIC is all about. I know when somethings good even when I HATE it and I know what "annoyingly catchy" is all about as I invented the term lol

ALL I'm saying is the FACT that it does NOT have the versatility
and the depth that is has had in the past. If you can read or have ears you'll know this
In the top 10 one style is DOMINANT and the music is created by the Three P's number one "P" being self contained PRODUCERS still whom I respect. I have explained this in the past, Producers/Pro Tools/Pitch Correction...
All kinds of MUSICIANS and MUSIC's are vastly absent. That is a simple fact. Many types of musical people are OUT of the big show, where they used to be in. Much of that is due to the date and technology.
It's as simple as saying Westerns were more & better in the 1950's... that is another fact does anyone want to try disputing it? Sorry I feel that a decade like the 60's that without even mentioning anyone else had Motown And The Beatles in it was more effective and better popular music wise for ALL THINGS music and the fans. There hasn't been a pop group anywheres near better or a better stable of artists,writers and musicians sitting around working at a record label like Motown since. Nothing can change my opinion of that accept to HEAR it and see it. So far it hasn't. Countless others feel the same way. It's nice to keep the word "Great" intact and not so watered down. I'll also be first to let you know immediately when there's a greater Heavy Weight Champion than Ali.

This is not a total knock it's just showing how POP music is different & varied in this CENTURY!
-----------

Let me give you a better more personal example of what I'm talking about.
When "Wildfire" by Michael Murphy was on the radio, a song my friend the former VP at Epic was responsible for signing. I loved it, I was like Five years old, My teenage sister loved it, my even older brother liked it, my parents loved it..... Nobody was just trying to support there families interests by pretending to all love the same music lol

A Pop song, on the MAIN CHART!! same goes for "Killing Me Softly" I wonder why we all loved it? Duh!

Thanks goodness for Taylor Swift who's no CAROL KING yet, (to keep perspective) lives on that MAIN CHART. This way perhaps those rare nice moments where Mother Father Sister Brother and CHILD all listen together and love a song like it was "White Freaking Christmas" or "Over The Rainbow" can exist. Instead of 90% of only "Swing My Thing Into Your Thing" (Back of the club n'mix) songs.

As WRITERS and performers who are actually trying to compete TODAY understand what TYPE of talent/song is in demand this century. And which takes a back seat, a BIG back seat. This can help your perspectives. Big Jim you feel a guitar player you work with in the studio deserves all the money and attention that Justin Beiber gets. The rest of the WORLD doesn't, that's old century.

Mike I have a similar background to you but probably not as illustrious.....I adopt the three Cs.....circulation (getting about and meeting music people and fellow musicians) .....Cubase (most guys I know use it).....and contacts (always exchange numbers with the folk you meet).