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Joined: Jul 2009
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OK I'm new to the site. Started using it a while back and didnt really understand it so im here i am again. I am a hiphop artist in jamaica which you know is a dancehall/reggae oriented. Jus looking for some advice on how to apply internet marketing to get results on an international level. If you have the time while replying you can check out my website....http://www.loc-online.com/

Thanks Much..

L.O.C

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welcome LOC

I listened to a couple of your songs on the Myspace player and thought they were pretty good.......I have absolutely no idea how to get a rap/hip hop career crankin but maybe somebody else in JPF does.........

glad to have you here-best of luck

Tom

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Welcome back LOC,

Even though JPF is "Country" heavy, as far as song writers go, I think the same basic rules apply. So don't pass up any advice that's given, even if it's not aimed at the Hip-hop genre. From memory, and just off the top of my head, here's a few:

1. Go to your "My stuff", and edit your profile to include your websites under your "signature". That way, they'll show up on all of your posts and we can easily click on them.

2. Network. Reading your bio, it seems that you're already doing that locally.

3. Play out. Find clubs. Find clubs that might not even have hip-hop artists, or music, and talk your way into a gig.

4. Network/research on-line. One of the advantages, I think, of hip-hop, is that in a lot of places, the music is played by DJ's. And the DJ's need a lot of music!! Get your CD into their hands. Find out who's doing what/where, and contact them with your best stuff.

Most larger cities have a "free paper". these are a little more radical than the standard paper. In Detroit, it's called the Metro Times. In DC, it's the City Paper:

http://classifieds.washingtoncitypaper.com/washington/

If you search through the classifieds, you'll find several DJ's.

5. Music libraries. Please don't overlook these. They supply the music for films, often in short snippets. A lot of people here are active in submitting to the "Libraries". Search out the posts about them to help find out which are the best ones.

6. Don't forget that you are up against THOUSANDS of other artists on the internet, so the chances of being discovered on "MySpace"" & such are pretty slim. But nonetheless, that's one way to build up your fan base.

7. Network...yes, again:-)....Establish and build relationships. Not just in a "what can you do for me" way. It's a very competitive world, but that doesn't mean that everyone else is your enemy. Friendships go a long way, and you never know where the next person you meet is going to end up.

8. I don't think that the "Lyrics" Forum would work very well, mostly because there are "dirty words" that the filters won't allow...Although I do get a giggle out of thinking of a critique where there is an endless debate because a critiquer thinks a word should be "b1tch" but you insist it should be "Ho"...

But that doesn't mean that the MP3 forum shouldn't be used.

And don't worry if you're one of the few Hip-hop artists around here...Hang out, and spread the word among your fellow artists. Get them to drop in and be active. Create what you need for yourself.

As I said earlier, your tastes won't be the same as mine, but the paths that need to be followed are pretty much the same. Just insert "New York" or "L.A." for "Nashville", and go from there.

Best

Midnite



Best

Midnite


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

The Shoebox & Dinner at Eight trailers available at:

http://www.twometer.com/Two_Meter_Studios/HOME.html
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LOC,

One thing I would ask you in regard to your initial topic,"No hip hop artists on this site..." I would ask you this, "Why would there be?" this is really not where hip hop artists could come. They don't exactly visit or be a part of songwriting forums. Hip hop and rap are the music of the streets and that is really not what is here.

While there are some people with a passing interest there, rap and hip hop is another art form that is self contained, where the artists are the writers. It is not like you can just go down to a publisher and get a rap song to fit what you do. The artists write what they are around and in their lives.So that is not what a site like this can really facilitate outside of possibly have some people with knowledge of where to go be around people who are into those types of music.

There are web sites for everything, you might find one a little more dedicated to that type of music while staying here and learning about the craft and business in general. Then you might find out about conferences, workshops that are dedicted to what you are looking for.

There are a lot of people with different skills and interests here and you will probably find a few suggestions. But to get closer to what you are looking for will probably require you spread your search out. You have gotten a few good suggestions here. I would start there and build outwardly.

Good luck to you,

MAB

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I am going to respectfully disagree with Marc. It's true that we don't seem to have a large hip-hop contingent, but all genres are welcomed and I would like to see a little more variety in the genres of music represented here.

While we have many members here interested in learning to write for other artists, we can be a great benefit for all musicians, artists, etc.

Welcome to JPF. I hope we can all learn a bit from each other.


Kevin Edward Rose
Celtic, Americana, whatever the folk.
Hailed by Performing Songwriter magazine as a "valued subscriber".
More music sold than Elvis and the Beatles combined!*
http://www.KevinEdwardRose.com
http://www.youtube.com/KevinEdwardRose
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Hey LOC,

Welcome to JPF, and I look foward to hearing some of your work.

Yep, hip-hop is under-represented, so hope you can put up a few tunes on the mp3 board.

There's plenty of general information to be found here, but if specifically looking for a beatz board, www.futureproducers.com is a great resource for your genre.

cheers, niteshift

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Kevin,

You might be right. That is something I don't know about.One o my continuous clients is from San Fransisco Ca.and has been a rap, rock and hip hop producer for about 15 years. he has mulitple gold and platinum records on his wall from artists like Dr. Dre and Snoop Dog. He is my source on that type of music.

His comments are what I mentioned.He is on many of these threads and encounters that same kind of question in many situations. He has even done workshops and panel discussions on it. his opinion is that rap and hip hop is all about "Street cred" and that is not found on pages on a web site. It is about getting in there and actually doing it, not talking about it.

If there are elements of this that you or others know that I don't I certainly defer to your experience. I am a relative newcomer here and admittedly this is out of my league.

But as anything I do on these or other pages come either from my personal experiences or those of friends of mine who are actually involved in those particular forms of endeavor.

Everyone is going to have different reactions depending on their drive, talents and attitudes.

But dissagree with me you have and the destruction of me has begun. You have brought me down and laid me low. And as the end of my career, the curtain coming down on the life that was mine, let it say on my tombstone that Kevin was the secret of my demise! I shall be gone now!!!!

Until we find another subject. Good insights dude. I defer to your experience here.

Yo, Yo, Yo. Whaka Whaka Whaka! My hip hop scratching sound here!)

Grandmaster Mabby Daddy

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Marc, I'm the first to admit that I know little about hip-hop or rap (although after a few Scotches, I have been known to rap a mean version of "With a Little Help From my Friends"). The last CD I purchased in one of those genres was Nenah Cherry's "Raw Like Sushi" back in the late 80's.

I just don't want anyone to feel that they can't participate here just because they don't subscribe to the "Three Chords and the Truth" philosophy. Beside writers, we have a lot of artists in all genres as members even though they may not be active on the boards.

So, Grandmaster Mabby Daddy, lets not get into a Midwest verses Mid South conflict like the east and west coast rappers.

Respect!

Special K


Kevin Edward Rose
Celtic, Americana, whatever the folk.
Hailed by Performing Songwriter magazine as a "valued subscriber".
More music sold than Elvis and the Beatles combined!*
http://www.KevinEdwardRose.com
http://www.youtube.com/KevinEdwardRose
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Hi L.O.C ,

I'm like you hip hop lover, sorry, but this site was declared as a place for all genres worldwide but some transformed it into country music club, and now looks like there are no other cities in US but Nashville.
Some exsamples: who wrote a song Irreplaceable for Beyonce?-
Author from Norway,
who wrote several hits for Britney Spears?- Author from Sweden, looks like they aren't going to move from their cities to Nashville...
About hip hop: now and years before many famous singers record a songs where rappers are featured!
It's necessary to be blind that don't see - such an artist like
Mariah Carey, Alicia Keys, Rihanna, Mary.J. Blige, Jennifer Hudson and many others take a songs from outside although they write their own stuff too.
Look at Rihanna's songs: Hard (ft. Young Jeezy), Run This Town (ft Kanye West)
and then at last Rude Boy - there are no rappers in this
song but still this is hip hop! Why? because of beat instrumentation style.
Who's featured in last hit of Katy Perry California Girls? - Rapper Snoop Dog!
Well, I think, listed above are enough to understand that there is another music too, well sold music by the way.

Hey L.O.C , if you need beats/songs go to www.looperman.com
then choose "profiles" then enter AlekSalt into search window to
get my page with more than 40 beats/songs including hip hop too
( I have a pretty tune in reggae also)

ps. if somebody is blind and deaf, sorry, then he/she didn't see and hear song Empire State Of Mind by Alicia Keys and Jay-Z,
by the way, this song is written by outside author...

Last edited by Alek; 08/10/10 08:52 AM.
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Nashville has a rap music show on Public Access TV

how much more open can you get?.......and theres also a big rock n roll scene here...........all kinds of clubs for it and alot of big name rock n rollers live here full time.......we also have one of the newest and fanciest symphony orchestra concert halls in thw world here in Nashville......and I dont think Nashville members-of which I am one-think theres only one city in the music world-I certainly dont.......we would truly love more info about LA/NY/Seattle/London publishing houses and labels from members in those places or who submit to them.......I think Nashville members are very helpful in giving all the info we ourselves have about this town and the innner workings of Music Row-much as we can figure out ourselves at least-lol.......hip hop/rap/death metal whatever is welcome here as far as I am concerned......theres alot of Nashville residents who have never set foot in a honkytonk-hate country music and loudly proudly blare everything else from giant speakers in their car radios and CD players believe me....In fact the only places you really ever see cowboy hats and boots are downtown at the honkytonks........and most of the folks wearing those are tourists anyway....Sheryl Crow just moved to Nashville-shes's a pretty cool chick if you ask me.......if we were just a bunch of hicks I doubt she would have considered it...


Tom

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Hey L.O.C, I would add something:
first - have a look at two best rappers show

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXHrHerFA_s


second - my advice - make a video and place it at Youtube - this is a way to promote yourself

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This site, for some of us, is primarily about making music and finding collaborators. Hiphop is definitely under-represented here, but I've had several collabs on hiphop at other sites, and I hope to do more. Welcome L.O.C. smile

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Interesting thread what is a difference between rap and hip hop:

http://www.looperman.com/forum.php?tid=120623

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Originally Posted by Kevin Edward Rose
"Three Chords and the Truth"


Best quote to day !!!

Kevin , can I borrow that :-)

All the best
Jan


"You have to react to what's around you in the moment, whatever the music is.
Just think of it as some place you have to enter and you need to find the key."

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Well, I borrowed it from legendary Nashville songwriter Harlan Howard, but I'm sure he doesn't mind.


Kevin Edward Rose
Celtic, Americana, whatever the folk.
Hailed by Performing Songwriter magazine as a "valued subscriber".
More music sold than Elvis and the Beatles combined!*
http://www.KevinEdwardRose.com
http://www.youtube.com/KevinEdwardRose
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I'd like everyone to compare him/her when he/she was 16, 25, 35...etc. definitely you'll find that you were different people
in different ages.
Then read this amazing chorus from HIP HOP
song Dead And Gone:

Oh, I've been travelin on this road to long (too long)
Just trying to find my way back home ( back home)
The old mes dead and gone
Dead and gone
Songwriters: Harris, C; Tadross, R; Timberlake, J

...and then ask yourself : "Is there truth in this song?"
if you're honest you'll find a right answer.

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WEll, I'll have you know I hip hopped just yesterday!

HA! Not kidding, I have been trying to get into different genres, so I have been listening, and trying to play some "stuff" on my instrument! (that would be a keyboard with lots of buttons to those of you unfamiliar with the jargon)

I wouldn't dare post anything until I got my daughters approval.... so it may take a while, but I will listen if it's posted, if I can get to it.


Caroline


http://www.myspace.com/carolineholder
http://www.soundclick.com/carolinewroteit

Always keep your words soft and sweet, just in case you have to eat them! (Dove Dark Chocolate)
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Why do I like hip hop?
Below is explanation:
once in one of musicians forums there was
a discussion about what is a difference between rap and hip hop.
One man compared genres with volumes
of a water, so, he said:
" Classic is an ocean, jazz is a river, rock is
a stream and hip hop is a...glass"
Another said: Yes, I agree with you, but
that glass takes a water from ocean, river
and stream"
So, this is a reason why I do like it -
for its possibility to mix, combine, spread
etc. everything with everything.
I listen to many mainstream and underground hip hop. Recently I've got a Coast To Coast mixtape with very interesting song Judgment Day, production by Sir T and Lary D, you can find that song at Myspace. And this song inspired me to
make something similar.
Have a listen to it:

http://www.looperman.com/tracks_detail.php?tid=76827

I love classic and of course know whose
tune I used in my beat.

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Hey Alek,

So true on the writers of Britney Spears many hits. The swedish writer/producer is Max Martin and he co-wrote and produced the said Katy Perry's California Girls featuring Snoop (actually you might be surprised at how many well know songs he has written over the last 15 years or so).

Anyway, welcome to the site LOC. Nice to have diversity going on smile

Cheers

Alan

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I returned to this thread, why?
Just have a listen to rising hip hop personality:

http://www.looperman.com/tracks_detail.php?tid=82567

as for me, she's amazing

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I like most music genres if it is well performed.....I just do not get rap and jip hop. (it hives me jip) LOL
I understand the skill and expertise of the production and like some of the beats. I just do not get the tuneless mouthing off. Most of the time I cannot make out what they are saying and even when I do I can make no sense of what they are mouthing off about. It is maybe just as well as I detest the clothes they wear, the drugs, the attitude, gang culture and thuggery they project as their image. I am no prude having been performing rock music since the sixties. The rappers etc are too violent for me.

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Hi BIG JIM MERRILEES,
have you heard a song I mentioned in my previous post?
Just have a listen to it and you'll take your words back,
by the way it's HIP HOP too.

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Had a listen to some of your tunes......SORRY...My opinion of hip hop has not changed. To compete with what is already out there I suggest you use some better quality samples instead of the poor quality outdated MIDI synth stuff that features so much on your tracks. Some vocals would also improve things. Do you play keyboard or just mix loops?

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BIG JIM MERRILEES,
thanks for you time and feedback, I don't use loops as a rule, sometimes drums only, and I don't play keyboard - guitar only,
so, everything I do is is this: typing a notation into staff, yes,
this old fashioned method which composers use since J.S.Bach.
About loops again - I do them myself on classical guitar and place
for free using there at looperman.com

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I am puzzled....I heard no guitar on any of your tunes it was all MIDI synth. Now playing classical guitar in a hip hop style could be a niche market for you..... you should use your guitar in your tunes.
There is not much call for dots nowadays especially in hip hop...few people I know bother to or even can read music properly let alone write it down as dots.

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HIYa Bro L.O.C.!

I, for one, HOPE You WILL Post some Lyrics & Songs for critique here at JPF. Among the Sympathetic Eyes & Ears here will be mine.

We're not ALL "Pure Country Writers" here...(One of my first "Holds" in LA was with Neneh Cherry..WISH it HAD ended up on that Album Kevin bought..heh!) (I'd forgotten all about it 'til Kevin mentioned her name!) Anyways, in my earliest Songwriting Days ('83-89) I spent as much time heading to L.A. as I did to Nashville..met/wrote-with some of the Earlier Cats-Involved in creating Rap & Hip-Hop Genres...STILL have a lot of it in my blood.

So...consider this an Invite. No easier way to get International Fame than to post on an International Site & get Heard/Polish Your Craft (with Global Assistance)/Get Co-Writers around the Planet/AND enter JPF's Bi-Annual Music Awards contest.

What's FUN is Some of Marc'll rub-off on You..&, I'm Betting, Vice-Versa... "We're all in this Together"..& it's More than just a slogan. Let's Hear What Ya Got, Amigo!

Best Wishes & Good Luck,
Stan

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Big Jim, I was in a hurry, when responded first time to you.
Well, I came back home and now ready to tell you some
interesting things, sure useful for you and others too.
First: 2 years ago I was like you (hated hip hop/rap/R&B these genres are very related).
What I wrote before- well there at looperman placed one of
my first songs Hit Man and I wrote that melody more
than 30 years ago (it's old school rock).
What's the next, next are things where many songwriters stumble sometimes, these are well known ones "author's block and "cliche".
If you wrote 5-7 songs they are fresh but when
you have 150-200 you might begin to repeat yourself. And I had this.
Fortunately, I subscribed to Coast 2 Coast mixtapes
and began to download them (why not? It's free).
And the more I listened to them the more I turned
my ears to hip hop, and then finally recognized it
and...began to make my own beats.
About loops: accidentally I found site looperman.com
and began to make my own loops, it was like a fun,
but then I found it very useful, why? In short piece
a lot of musicianship and emotions can be put.
I uploaded close to 50 loops and people worldwide
downloaded them and I got many thanks, some even
sent to me their songs built on a single loop of mine (as a rule my loops have 4 chords and this is enough for Hip Hop song, wow, even single chord is enough for rap).
Then I deleted old loops and began to upload a new ones. (You can find them there at looperman, click
"loops" in my profile and you can choose one and
download in WAV format).

And what is conclusion from a said?

Now I have no author's block and cliches and
everything due to hip hop and loops!!!
Now I can write a ready song ( melody, I'm not lyricist) in 5 minutes!!! If you heard song You're A Liar there
at looperman, so, this is a case of a fast creation -
I just sang it into my cell phone and only then produced a beat with that melody,
then Angel Wade entered a contest with that song (www.exploretalent.com Urban Music Contest)

One of my loops I used in my beat Dances Under
Moon, and you're right I should make it more.

About outdated synth sounds of my beats...hm,
it's disputable question, why? Here you are:
now American rock band has a rehearsals with my song, what do they said, these 20 years old guys?
- We try to get a heavy sound of 80s, cool?
So, they just want to get an outdated sound.

Do you remember Animals with their greatest hit
The House Of The Rising Sun?
Do you remember organ's sound in that remarkable song? So what - some days ago I've got next Coast 2 Coast mixtape where
some hip hop songs have the same organ sound!!!
But it's outdated!!!
Next: famous software producer Native Instruments released a drum pack Abbey Road of
60s, but, heck, 40 years have passed and those
sounds are more than outdated now!!!
Looks like Native Instruments are not crazy and are
going to get a good money from that pack.
Rock band from London already performs my songs
and they are going to get signed with them.
Several rappers from US and UK work with
my beats to make them a songs completed.

What conclusion from a said - the matter is: do you have your own unique unforgetable sound? If, yes,
then it will attract people to have a listens of your
beats/songs etc.

I'm multi-genre composer, you'll find there at looperman tune in classical (Sad Song)
in big band blues of 20s (Persuade This Girl),
rock, pop, hip hop, rap, r&b songs/beats.





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Alek I do not quite follow you. First you said that you do not use loops, only play guitar and write sheet music, then you write screeds about the loops you create and who uses them... in your tunes there is no guitar anywhere to be heard. Interested to hear how you create your own loops from scratch if you only play guitar.
I am no stranger to loops and have a huge library of my own. This covers all styles, keys and instruments.....as well as takes up a lot of Space....Ivory piano alone takes over 40 gig of space.

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BIG JIM, these are my loops:
http://www.looperman.com/profile.php?mod=loops&mid=270020

my gear is not the best to get an excellent sound.
And this tune is built on 2 chords guitar loop:

http://www.looperman.com/tracks_detail.php?tid=67383

and maybe I explained it not clear: I don't use loops of others(as a rule) but others use my loops

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Originally Posted by "Tampa Stan" Good
HIYa Bro L.O.C.!

I, for one, HOPE You WILL Post some Lyrics & Songs for critique here at JPF. Among the Sympathetic Eyes & Ears here will be mine.

We're not ALL "Pure Country Writers" here...(One of my first "Holds" in LA was with Neneh Cherry..WISH it HAD ended up on that Album Kevin bought..heh!) (I'd forgotten all about it 'til Kevin mentioned her name!) Anyways, in my earliest Songwriting Days ('83-89) I spent as much time heading to L.A. as I did to Nashville..met/wrote-with some of the Earlier Cats-Involved in creating Rap & Hip-Hop Genres...STILL have a lot of it in my blood.

So...consider this an Invite. No easier way to get International Fame than to post on an International Site & get Heard/Polish Your Craft (with Global Assistance)/Get Co-Writers around the Planet/AND enter JPF's Bi-Annual Music Awards contest.

What's FUN is Some of Marc'll rub-off on You..&, I'm Betting, Vice-Versa... "We're all in this Together"..& it's More than just a slogan. Let's Hear What Ya Got, Amigo!

Best Wishes & Good Luck,
Stan


Now you are bringing back memories Stan I love Neenah Cherry. Buffalo Stance was one of those great songs that was all hook.


This big ole dizzy world keeps spinnin
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Alek,

A lot is often made of the "Nashville tone" of a lot of these threads. One of the main reasons for that is that Nashville is about the last place open for writers of songs who are not the artists. Most formats simply don't accept that much outside music. As a matter of fact you are considered a "Sacralidge' if you do consider outside material.

One of my regular clients is a rap and hip hop producer based out of San Fransisco. He has several platinum records on his walls from his involvement with Dr. Dre, Snoop Dog and others. He is a remix engineer. Most of my knowledge (which is not much) on that area of music comes from him.

Rap/Hip hop, etc. is VERY inside and you almost have to be in the "gang" to be accepted. They are very hard core and are pretty dismissive on anyone who is not one of them. In this country we even have "turf wars" from the East Coast (New York) and the West Coast (LA/San Fransisco). It has led to their biggest stars, Tupac Shacur and others being killed in drive by shootings. It is not for the feint of heart.

The same can be said for most types of music. In Bluegrass if you bring a drum into the band, you are drummed out of the corp. If you bring a contemporary theme song into Gospel or Chistian you lose your key to the office. Each format has it's own rules. Most are unwritten and it takes a lot to even learn how it operates.

For myself, rap and hip hop are rapid words strung together in rhythm. There is no room to hold or extend notes, or separate yourself from pretty much any body else. Talking is talking. I am a singer. If I can't hold notes out, I have no interest in it. It takes a defined skill to be able to do that. That is what sets singers apart from everyone else. Pretty much anyone can talk in rhymes.

That doesn't mean that there is not skill involved. There is and my hat is off to those guys. If you can produce music with gunfire being all around you, you have my respect.

But the problem I have with it is the whole culture. The attitudes and subject matter are very aggressive, very dark and very angry. It is the language of the streets and that can be pretty hard core. They are really bad in their treatment of women. They are pretty tough to be around personally. If they don't like you they let you know it. And often do something about it.

Several of my friends who own studios have quit doing rap because of the element that comes around it. Their houses and studios turn out looking like garbage dumps and people are around at all hours of the night. It is a midnight to 6 AM business and if you have other clients that can be tough. And trying to get paid is another problem.

Another problem is the propensity of a lot of rappers to "sample" other's works, tracks, and then refuse to pay for it. Snoop Dog sampled a song of two friend's of mine from a hit from the 70's. He not only refused to pay for it, he refused to acknowledge the song exsisted before. Lawyers and the court system finally changed his mind.
Later on he pitched a fit when comedian Weird Al Yankovick did a parody of one of his songs and tried to sue to stop it. He was even paid for it. Didn't matter to him. Shoe can get on the other foot pretty quickly.

So I don't want to disparage any form of music.Only respond to some of these threads based around my personal information and what I have knowlege of. And I offer it only as an opinion.

Music is music and while I might not find it my cup of tea, the purpose of these pages is for everyone to share information, and up the level of each other's game.

That is my take on it.

MAB

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Hi Alek I had a listen to your loops and tune.......what may let them down is the very poor recordings. There is a lot of hiss and muddiness and inbalance. Most studios and sound recordists will not accept this standard. If you want to make anything out of producing loops and want to be seen as a pro etc I would urge you to invest in reasonable pro recording gear to produce viable products. There are loops galore out there competing with you where the bar is set very high.....you have to at least match their standards.

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Hey Alek,

You're in a tough market mate ( literally )

The whole modern loop thing was essentially put together by Sony in order to make fast music production even easier. Sure, the real guys like Dre who were into programming and synthesis from scratch, really started the whole deal, even back to Alan Parsons, but that was programinng which punched in, note by note, and used synthetic sound generated samples. ( Sorry for the lecture, but others may not be aware )

So it evolves into manipulating recorded sound samples, and there you have it, if you have the song in your head, you can find a whole bunch of samples and at least do a mock up of a song.

Example here ; http://soundclick.com/share?songid=9455888

A JPF member, Tams, put up an a capella and needed some backing. So I sat down at the piano, worked out a chard structure, got on the DAW and then found suitable guitar phrases and drum phrases to fit. Sent it off to Mike D, who added real bass, then added a MIDI flute. It's not perfect, but you can understand the song.

Then, you've got sampled sound in almost every recording. Example ; http://iacmusic.com/songs.aspx?SongID=77730&ArtistID=129785

Finished song, with looped drums, and looped acoustic. The rest done "live". It's a cost thing. It's cheaper, but great sound capture, and the ability to manipulate the loops, to fit.

What I see with a lot of hip-hop, is that it's damn lazy. Just pull up a loop, and play it over and over, and lay rap over the top. No sound structure, no song structure, just plain boring. On the other hand, the guys that create music in their genre are damn clever, inventive, creative, and put out a fantastic product. They're real musicians first, and use the technology, to warp and bend something old into something new. And when they do that, that product really shows.

Alex, I've listened to your loops, and I'm sorry to say, they are just not usable. There is some GREAT playing on them, but there is way too much backgroung noise for anyone to use them commercially. Sorry, but you're competeing with the best studios and best muscians in the world, who do this stuff and nail it, then you need to up your game.

Regarding rap lyrics, I would have to vehmenatly disagree with Marc on this point. Just because it's spoken word, doesn't mean it doesn't contain a great level of skill. Marc complains that he can't "hold note" in rap. That's because he has to hold notes, in order to think about what the next line is. It's too fast for his old brain ! grin

I won't even start on the new songs, and the inclination to blend strong rap with strong harmonic vocal, and a very solid song structure.

You keep at it Alex ! , and maybe we'll attract some innovative people here to rattle the old folks bones.

cheers, niteshift




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Nite,

You are so right.It takes me four or five seconds to even remember what my name is. Plus I have some of the worst timing on the planet. So that eliminates me from the Rap game altogether.

MAB

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Unlike Marc I can appreciate beats and the spoken word.... I can see how some people like the hypnotic beats but I do not get it and see beyond the hype and posing. I agree that most times it is lazy.... just sampling or copying a big hit played along with a drum loop. That said those guys are clever at mixing etc. My gripe with rap etc goes deeper.... their culture or should I say lack of it and what they stand for....... I have no time for gun toting gangsters who abuse everyone and everything. Everything in rap seems to have a bad attitude and violence is held as a virtue. Sad that our kids can be so easily corrupted by falling for this malevolent jungle culture.

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Gotta disagree with you here Jim.

Sure, that culture had it's time, but that was ten years ago, or more.

What that whole culure did, was to strip music down to the beat, and the raw basics of lyrics. No frills, no fluff. It took an essence, and worked it well, without fluff or circumstance. It did the same thing that Rock and Roll did to Big Band. It did the same thing that the Beatles did to west coast surfing music, it did the same thing that disco did to hippie music ( I didn't say that did I ? eek )

Music evolves, and real musicians notice that.

If you don't "like" it that's fine, but the same could be said about Twang Town. It's not Twang Town, it has ( currently ) the best sound stages on the planet, and the best live musicians ( many classicly trained ) to go with it. That used to be London or LA, a few years ago, but it's all changed.

So, are all Twang Town guys country hillbillys ? , are all rap guys a bunch of thugs ? Are all Scotish guys just playing the bagpipes ? ..................

cheers, niteshift

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Nite you misunderstand.....I like some of the music and the beats. I appreciate the work that goes into it That is not in question. I just do not accept the image and the culture most of those guys portray even today. Same thing applies to country but for diff reasons....I like some of the music but I am against the system the culture and the image that some of those guys portray. There are always exceptions to any rule and the stereotype is usually well off the mark but generally in principle I dislike all stereotypical rappers and most stereotypical country music. My isuue is not the music itself but some of the people behind it.
I am a huge fan of blues and what used to be called soul music....sadly the new R&B kind of lost its soul roots and direction.
It would be fair to say that all successful rappers have gang roots and come from the type of culture that appalls me.

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Hi guys, Marc, Jim, niteshift,
I'm grateful that you joint this discussion and everyone
of you brought some fresh thoughts on the table.
Now I'll try to reply or on the contrary to ask a question everybody:
Do you like Frank Sinatra, his roles in movies, songs like Strangers In The Night (we played this song in early 70)s etc?
I think most of us will say "yes", but he was friendly
with some bosses of mafia!!! So what? I also had
friends-gangsters in early 90s, we were friendly by families - our kids played under the same table!
I add said above to culture of hip hop discussion...

About my guitar loops: the purpose is not to sell them
right now, but to attract more people to collaboration and improve my creative skills too. And it works: little US label specialising in Urban music is interested in my stuff ....and I'm sure they are not mafia.

I'm multi genre composer who writes sheet music
and hip hop is just one of the niches where I could break into as well as rock, pop, jazz, blues, R&B, classical.

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Hey Jim,

So sorry you're concerned about "image" and perception above music.

As a young bloke, I was the only white guy in a black band. We were booked to play the Black Power club. I thought I was going to be killed ( as a skinny little white guy ) but that didn't happen. I was shown respect, and probably double, because I was a musiciain. I was challanged once, but with a nod to the MC, everythng was fine.

There is definitly a lack of hip-hop and other associated genres here. That's probably because these boards are viewed as white middle class, pissing in the wind, kind of stuff.

It's all very cosy, but doesn't do much for the progression of music as a whole.

Don't get me wrong here, the folks here are great, and welcome everyone, but I wonder how much is musicianship, and how much is "the way I'd like to be seen, and would you please read my so called lyrics".

cheers, niteshift


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Hey Alek,

Yes, what you're doing crosses many boundaries.

I can't tell you of the wonderful collabs I've noted, which take a classical composer, and mix them with a "street" composer.

A real musician will always work with others, in any genre, to create music. That's because they practice the art of musicianship. They don't practice the art of bigatory, or self delusiion, or self gratificatiion.

A real musucian will look, learn, and evolve from the experience. And try to do better.

You don't see a lot of hip-hop here, because the audience is inward thinking, and wants to live in the past.

Writing songs from 1965 seems to be the go. But that time is dead and gone.

cheers, niteshift


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Nite I am and always will be interested in music rather than image. That is why I am so vehement against the pop culture where image is everything and the music is naff. Rap has become such a thing. As I said before I quite like some of the beats and respect the skill of the production......It is the content I have a prob with and the outrageous aggressive behaviour of those guys. I put aside the ethnicity, backgrounds, politics and personalities of all musicians. When the music itself offends me that is when I have a problem. Frankly most rappers offend me.
None of them can even hold a mic properly.....Why do they always put their fists over the top and yell into it? Do they not realise it interferes with the capsule and ruins any chance of decent sound capture. The sound guy must be going nuts. mind you I get a laugh at the way they posture, the clothes they were and how they wear them. With all the money they have they cannot even buy a pair of pants that fits them or show some respect or decorum onstage.

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Alek you miss my point also.....In music a lot of guys take drugs and have underworld connections.....that said their music and image does not directly expose or promote this lifestyle. In rap the opposite is the case....This evil doing is encouraged and promoted......referring to women and their girlfriend specifically as bitches, wearing gang colours, shooting each other or the constant reference to busting a cap in your ass and the macho posturing about sums up the mentality. Thuggery and gang culture should never be popularised or glamourised.

I have very eclectic tastes in music in what I write and what I listen to. Just because a thing is popular with the masses does not mean it is of any great musical merit. It just proves that the masses will buy anything if it is marketed or hyped enough.
I tend to listen to the music itself from a neutral POV and judge for myself whether it has merit and is to my taste.

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Big Jim, do you remember a "concert of death"
by Rolling Stones" in 60s, yes, when they(band)
arrived to stadium on a helicopter (they could not get there with another way), and what happened then?-
Fight with hundreds of dead, and what then? Then
TV channels aired this many times, and got a big
bucks from it.
At last, what was the youth motto of a 60s?
Here you are:
" Sex, drugs and rock-n-roll"
So, all this is a back side of a pop culture we all here
belong to.

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I am not sure why you guys keep saying that this is a predominately country/nashville site. If you go to the MP3 forum and scan through the first 20 songs, you will notice that country songs are NOT the predominate genre.

You might say that the lyric boards are filled with folks trying to "write" country, but lyrics can be taken on many different musical journeys.

I know facts are dangerous things, but sometimes they actually do help in a discussion.

Kevin


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Kevin @ bandcamp: Crows Say Vee-Eh
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To draw the line under this too long discussion
I suggest to the rappers and hip hoppers who left
still alive after our dispute to do rap or sing
over this beat:


http://www.looperman.com/tracks_detail.php?tid=76827

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Sorry Alek I do not remember any Stones concert where "hundreds got killed" I remember one person was killed in a riot at a stones concert...... hundreds....... perhaps you exaggerate. In any case the Stones did not start it do not carry guns or belong to any gang. I was active in bands in the sixties and the so called sex, drugs or rock N roll that was supposedly so proliferant is a myth. Maybe I was sheltered. I think that nowadays drugs and violence is completely out of hand especially in the rap culture.
That said I still do not condone rap or the message it sends out.
The political and social messages in other music genres is tame in comparison. NUFF SAID.

BTW I recognise the music and the composer......Grieg's Peer Gynt op46 (In The Hall Of The Mountain King)....If memory serves me correct I think it has been rapped to already....but do not ask me who by.

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Jim, you're right about Stones (after your last post I had a look
to Wikipedia to refresh those covered with dust days, but as for
drugs - Wikipedia says they had multiple arrests and blames for
drugs keeping.

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Alek,

What you are referring to is Altamont. It was in the fall of 1969 after the Woodstock festival in August of that year. While Woodstock had been about Peace love and music (all that hippy nonsense that was really bad smells and mud.) Altamont was about crazyness drug use and the Hell's Angels.

The Stones put on a free concert at Altamont Racing way and hired a bunch of insane Motorcycle gang members, the Hells Angels to do security. The result was Chaos with the Hells Angles beating members of the crowd, and one black man was stabbed to death by the Angles when he pulled a gun. The Angles even beat members of the Jefferson Airplane and the Grateful Dead.

There were actually only about 10 people who were bruised and roughed up. The rest of the people who had problems, maybe 20, were drug overdoses.

Woodstock actually had one death when a kid was run over by a tractor he was sleeping underneath. To have two deaths in a million people, it is really not that much even though one is too many.

The entire hippie generation was a lot of verbal love and peace but actually more derilect behavior. And it ended about as quickly as it started. That entire area lasted from 1967 to 1969.

The point Jim and I are making about the Rap and Hip Hop world is that you are not considered "Authentic" by that community unless you are "one of them" which means a culture or drugs, violence and mistreatment of people. Are they all thugs? No.Do some have talent? I am sure you can find it. Most who manage to rise above it, P Diddy, Snoop Dog, etc. become business people with clothing lines, and are very much capitalists.

But the majority of that culture is very aggressive, and very negative. There aren't "happy rap songs." It is not accepted. Again, this is not from me first hand, but from someone I work with quite closesly who is very much in that world. He is the one who gives me my information and of course you use your own eyes and it is pretty self evident.

I am not trying to tell you what to do. That is not my role in anyone's lives here. I am exposed to a LOT of different people in my vocation,which is helping writers and artists find their way. I deal with most people who are NOT in Nashville and actually come from the worlds that many discuss here.No one holds all the answers. There are pockets of good in anything.

This entire issue for me is one of tone. It is not my cup of tea for the reasons Jim is talking about. I just don't care for that world. But more power to those that do. If that is what you want to do, I am all for you. I just prefer my own little section of the music world. Much less dangerous, and a much more adaptive community for what I do. Everyone has to make their own choices.

MAB

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Rap music is the 3rd largest genre of music in our awards behing the Singer-Songwriters and Rock. That's out of 100 genres. The only reason you don't see more Rap discussed here is simply because the Rap artists in JPF choose not to use the message boards. The Jazz artists don't either. Nor do most of the Rock artists. Country is in the middle of the pack in terms of entry numbers each year, though it did grow a bit in the last awards to perhaps the top 1/3. Another interesting thing we've found is that Rap is now found mixed together with dozens of other genres (including Country for that matter). Anyone who wants to be a positive part of the message boards is welcome and I'd LOVE more diversity here. But it requires people to actually participate. We have lots of Rap artists turn out for Showcases during Roadtrips. I met with a Parisian DJ & Rap artist just yesterday.

The world is what you make of it. If you want more genres to be involved here, including Rap, step up and be involved. Don't wait for someone else to do it first. It would only take 3 active Rap artists to get involved and stay involved to change the dynamic. Once folks see activity, they tend to draw more in. While you're at it, drag a few other genres in with you.

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

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Marc, thanks for your time, but as I mentioned before, responding to Jim, I already have this information about Stones after reading Wikipedia.
About rappers and their world:
Beyonce is married with Jay Z, Joung Jeezy was going to get married with Keyshia Cole (maybe just rumours). Mariah Carey had a relations with Eninem, and had multiple projects with rappers involved in,
Alicia Keys, Ciara, Rihanna... I can count this list
to endless... My question is: are those lovely ladies and
remarkable singers, who co-work with rappers, all brutal?
As for me, I think all of them are much less brutal
than rock icon of 60s Jennis Joplin for example.
So, seems, like something wrong
is in your statements.
What can you say about it?

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