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#848563 - 10/04/10 11:59 PM Re: What is the reality behind selling lyrics in Nashville? [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Roy Cooper Offline
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[quote=BIG JIM MERRILEESand
it is always the bimbo who cannot sing who gets all the credit and revenue when in fact it is the musicians and studio engineers who turned her crappy ditty into a hit song. [/quote]

Funny you should say that Big Jim.

A very good female singer friend of mine was a a top studio in London recording the vocals for a soap stars first release.

During a break, the soap star turned up and said, 'Hi, my name is ???????, have you heard my new song'.

Yes said my friend, 'I'm the one singing it'.

Talking about an embarissing mnoment for the star.

The release was a flop...

God Bless Roy and Helen


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#848887 - 10/06/10 06:55 AM Re: What is the reality behind selling lyrics in Nashville? [Re: Polly Hager]  
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Cheyenne Offline
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The best lyric in the world will never be heard unless its married to the right music.

Trouble is here many so called lyric writers, can not change what they have, to suit the music that evolves during a collaboration.

Most lyric writers dont write with a musical composers knowledge
thats why it's important to study music, and to study why those songs in the charts work.

Maybe you know all this? but many do not, I think you have had some great responses to your original question, but not sure why
the thread is still going on.




One of the most important principles of songwriting is to remember that a good song is a partnership of many different components, all working together to produce a satisfying musical experience.

In that respect, song components are either enhancing or compromising their combined effects.
#848897 - 10/06/10 08:38 AM Re: What is the reality behind selling lyrics in Nashville? [Re: Cheyenne]  
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Kevin Edward Rose Offline
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Originally Posted by Cheyenne
... but not sure why
the thread is still going on.


Actually, Cheyenne, the thread ended after Roy's most recent post, but we forgot to tell you. Now the thread will have to end with your post as long as no one else..... DOH!


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#848906 - 10/06/10 10:37 AM Re: What is the reality behind selling lyrics in Nashville? [Re: Kevin Edward Rose]  
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Steve Cooke Offline
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Last ... word.


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#848907 - 10/06/10 10:47 AM Re: What is the reality behind selling lyrics in Nashville? [Re: Steve Cooke]  
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Roy Cooper Offline
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Sorry Steve...


'You Have To Kiss A Lot Of Frogs To Find A Prince'

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#848974 - 10/06/10 04:30 PM Re: What is the reality behind selling lyrics in Nashville? [Re: Roy Cooper]  
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It goes on because it's a fascinating, many-faceted subject, one that goes right to the heart of why a lot of us are here.


#848990 - 10/06/10 05:14 PM Re: What is the reality behind selling lyrics in Nashville? [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Bill Robinson Offline
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#849392 - 10/08/10 05:06 PM Re: What is the reality behind selling lyrics in Nashville? [Re: Bill Robinson]  
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Z. Mulls Offline
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Wow. I'm a day late and a dollar short on this one, aren't I? I'm one of those lyricists who struggles with the fact that the melody/words split is 50/50, but the "musicating" is a lot of frustrating work.

I'm certainly with everyone up to the point where a demo work-for-hire (we'll arrange this song for you for $150) is different from a co-write (you want a melody? We're 50/50 on the song).

Gets tricky there. The musician now owns half of the song and has an interest in getting it right. And hiring other musicians and vocalists sure costs money.

So, says the lyricist, I'm cool with splitting the costs of anyone you have to hire. But, he continues, I'm uncomfortable paying you for working on your (our) song in your (our) studio.

I get what Polly is saying -- what does the musician half get for all that work except frustration? But is it fair for one partner to charge another for labor he is doing on their joint composition?

There are a few ways to split this baby. One is to have an agreement that the musician half will do the work but if the song makes any money at all, the first $XXX will go to the musician off the top for the studio work (and they will split any external costs). Another is instead of taking a co-write to charge an extra $100 for melody (which is probably more than you'd see from the song anyway).

Gets trickier if the produced track is to be used for anything other than a demo. If it's to be pitched for film or TV, who owns the master recording? Seems to me that the studio would expect to participate in profits of a "real track."

It's a sticky wicket, no doubt about it.

As for the age-old question of whether lyrics or music is more important, the answer is always "it depends." Sometimes it's one, sometimes it's the other. And Marc quotes the general truth that the music pulls them in but the lyric gets them to stay. So while sometimes one is more important than the other, 50/50 (or equal shares) is usually easiest.

I recently wrote a song with two composers. I started with one, and he pulled in a friend to help write and produce the track. They said I should get 50% because I came in with the lyric, and I thought it should be more equal (funny, the positions seem reversed, don't they?) We agreed on a 40/30/30 split, recognizing the strength of the lyric, but giving the 2-person music work more than half.


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#849398 - 10/08/10 06:00 PM Re: What is the reality behind selling lyrics in Nashville? [Re: Z. Mulls]  
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Steve Cooke Offline
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Not a question of the lyric/music split, I know, but it can cost different types of musicians rather different amounts of money to be in the same band.

I'll bet that a few people here have experience of dealing with singers in bands who don't consider buying the gear needed to amplify or record their voice (microphones, cabling, etc) to be something they ought to contribute towards. As if these are facilities that simply have to provided for them by others.

And often they'll excuse themselves from helping to shift equipment to and from a gig too.



Steve Cooke
Stockton-on-Tees, UK
http://wwww.soundcloud.com/stevecooke
#849400 - 10/08/10 06:18 PM Re: What is the reality behind selling lyrics in Nashville? [Re: Steve Cooke]  
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Anything goes. We make mutual decisions, deals, agreements...and they don't all have to be the same.

I think it's perfectly fair to charge for the service of recording a song you will also have a cowrite on (although I wouldn't do that). Others will completely disagree with me and call it unfair. We are both right.

You make agreements, or you pass. But either agreement is fair.

#849403 - 10/08/10 06:57 PM Re: What is the reality behind selling lyrics in Nashville? [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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I don't think musicians should get any writing credit -- what they do is just like fun stuff. The pleasure of working on my lyrics should be enough for them.

Kevin


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#849409 - 10/08/10 07:32 PM Re: What is the reality behind selling lyrics in Nashville? [Re: Steve Cooke]  
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Stephen Brooke Offline
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Originally Posted by Steve Cooke


And often they'll excuse themselves from helping to shift equipment to and from a gig too.



Hey, it's not my fault I have a bad back! wink

#849416 - 10/08/10 07:44 PM Re: What is the reality behind selling lyrics in Nashville? [Re: Stephen Brooke]  
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Wyndham Offline
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I'll add another dimension to the whole discussion, maybe these issues are why engineers that mix and master, just do the best they can, get paid and go to bed happy for a good days pay.
If anyone wants to read a tutorial on sound mixing, there's a great one at:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=29283
I've only gotten 3 pages in but what an eye opener. Very technical but worth the read.
Wyndham

#849620 - 10/09/10 10:01 PM Re: What is the reality behind selling lyrics in Nashville? [Re: Wyndham]  
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Ott Lukk (D) Offline
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Kevin:
I thought that pretty funny.
Ott

#852322 - 10/21/10 07:02 PM Re: What is the reality behind selling lyrics in Nashville? [Re: Ott Lukk (D)]  
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Sam Wilson Offline
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Sam Wilson  Offline
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Were I to "sell" a lyric, that by chance evolved into a demo, I would insist that all involved be treated fairly.

However, if someone who has no part in it made me feel like they couldn't be trusted, or wouldn't handle things equally, then I would pull my work out of the arrangement......and all involved would be at their own discretion to do what they wanted to do with their contributions.

Anyone else here would do the same. Every participant deserves full credit and all due monetary rewards for having worked on the song.

Now, having said that, I would like to see the initial point of this whole discussion become real. Uhhh, that is, if possible....?


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