JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum What is the reality behind selling lyrics in Nashville?

Jim
I am grasping what you are saying. But you and Polly keep insisting this is a DEMO
It is not IMHO

Bill: Here it is in a nutshell:

Jane Doe, who thinks she is the hottest lyricist on the planet, sends me her lyric, and says, "I'd love you to sing it. I don't have any idea how it should go, or what the melody should be like, or anything. Should it be rock or country? I don't know! Just GO WITH IT!"

I bring it to Haze. "Hey, here's a slab of concrete. We're expected to carve it into a sculpture of some sort. You game?" He says, "Do I have to write the melody and music?" I say, "Yeah." He says, "Well, then I GET COWRITE. Now, what do I get for my time FIRING UP THE STUDIO, PERFORMING THE MUSIC, MIXING IT DOWN, AND DELIVERING THE FINAL PRODUCT?" I say, "150$"

Bill, if you can't understand the fairness of that, then you're right, you were never on Haze's level, and you can't understand the THIRTY YEARS of dues he paid to get here. That's no disrespect to you whatsoever, and I have always thought you a good man...but when it comes to THIS, I hold fast to my guns. We are talking about a man who is a prodigy, who toured with Pam Tillis and then Darryl Worley and who has toured worldwide 3 times over, played the Country Music Awards, is constantly getting offers from top bands (won't name them because that would cause conflict) and who does this because he chooses now to be a family man and has opened up his own music store in his father's name. He's willing to do these demos cheaper than he did in Nashville, and THAT'S his investment.

Well said Polly.....perhaps if a lyricist went into a studio and saw first hand how much skill, time, and effort, an engineer has to put in, plus all the musicianship, expensive equipment needed to turn their poem into a finished, recorded song their attitudes might change. His 50% credit for the song, contribution and payback if the song ever makes any money is a bargain in comparison.

An interesting thread.

Being a lyrics only guy who doesn’t have a note in his head, I always rely on others to write a melody and sing to arrive at a completed song.

I find that if I want to write a song, it normally takes about a month to complete. One I did look over 2 years of putting away and going back time after time after time.

I can’t calculate hours spent on 1 verse then next day re-starting it because with a fresh reading it wasn’t right.

Then when I am convinced it’s finished I post it on JPF and friends and members
come in with suggestions and comments, many of which make me realise that I need to re-work and so off I go again.

So I make changes and then sometimes I realise that although the original wasn’t quite right, the suggestions given also were not quite right, so I search for what is right for what I want to say.

It all takes time and a great deal of deep thinking.

Looking at your song Polly ‘If You Could’ (which I love by the way), I know the time you spent on the lyrics was an awful lot and to say that that is only a small part of your song is IMO belittling the greatness of the words that you created.

Yes the music and your singing added to the finished song, but without your inspired words. What then?

When I feel my lyrics are ready I send them to my studio to have a melody written which I pay for.

Obviously the studio hope that I will use them to have the complete demo made, which will give them a financial benefit.
BUT should I decide not to have the demo done, the melody is mine as a ‘work for hire agreement’. I normally receive the melody as a single guitar track with vocals and the tempo it’s in. That costs me $80 and it’s done and dusted.

They do understand from having a working relationship with me that if they just ‘knock a tune up’ then the demo work will not follow so they normally come up trumps.

So I have a melody for which I have paid and I can hear it. That is a single business transaction.

NEXT, if I want the demo that becomes a separate transaction for which I will pay, and they have various types of demo that I can go for, from simple guitar/vocal to super demo.

I do see where those who say the production and singer make the song are coming from, because whenever I get my melody back it never sounds good enough for me.
I can’t see a great song IMO. Then when I get the finished full demo, using that melody, I always go wow and am normally bowled over.

I can always find a studio or GOOD musician to write me a melody for my words, but
I don’t see many people out there offering to write GREAT ORIGINAL lyrics to order.
Sure occasionally we can write a song off the cuff and it works, but often just coming up with the GREAT idea for the song to start with can require a lot of mental work.

A musician or studio has a big advantage over a lyric writer because they have something to start from. They read the words and form the tune. The lyricist doesn’t have that benefit. He or She is always starting from scratch.

I am not knocking music because without it the song wouldn’t work.

IMO the lyrics and final melody/arrangement/singer all have a place in the completion of a song. Too what degree depends on the way each person adds to it.

Crap lyrics with great music with a great singer can and often does work.

Great lyrics with not so good music but a GREAT singer can also work. Etc etc etc.

Referring Polly to Helen’s song ‘Burned’ that you and Haze did for us and your question.

----- quote -------

How is the lyric, IN ANY OF THESE SONGS, better or more important than the instrumentation, melody, and performance? Please tell me!

------ end quote ----

Of course in this finished song all elements have an equal value, and YES you both made a great job of it.
But I say that had Helen not written the words and had Haze and you not seen what to do with those words then the lyric sheet would still be in the suitcase gathering dust where it laid for 25 years.

So I think all parties contributed.

Anyway I could go on and on but won’t.

This has become a big hijack. Sorry Sam

God Bless to all Roy and Helen

The real value is in the quality of the ideas, not in time spent. Nobody cares wheter you've spent 15mins or 100hrs on a song. All listeners care about is if the song touches them and can mean something to them.

You can write a lyric in 30mins, but you can also work out music for a song in that amount of time. When you're a musician, you know the tools, have a workaround and can work out music just as fast.

Tracking and mixing a song is often just as fast. Once you have the drums down. You can record bass, 2-3 layers of guitar and additional stuff in an hour, and if your recording software is set up with templates, mixing won't take you longer. For a demo anyway.

Any DIY musician knows this. It's all about setting up your studio to a fast workflow. So, I think the producer musician is a bit canonized in this thread.

Music is really not rocket science, and with the tools available, even less so.

What you can't expect to do, no matter how virtuos you are, is to get quality ideas on the fly. Great lyricists collects ideas, writes on a daily basis, sketch out lyrics and finetune them untill they stand out compared to anything in the genre they write in. Trouble is, a lot of the how-to of writing is mental, and won't get appreciated as fast as a cool guitar lick. But both the magical and the tangiable is needed for songwriters to reach a great song.

Again, artists can do what they want, because they already have carte blance, and only have to worry about what they desire to express/ marketability. Songwriters have to come up with ideas so universal that everybody loves them. That's why the quality of ideas is crucial.

Hi guys!

this is not a new discussion

In 1607, Italian composer Monteverdi created the first opera ever, 'Orfeo'. When asked about the interplay of words and music, he declared: 'prima le parole, dopo la musica' (first the lyrics, then the music)

In 1941, another great opera composer - and symphonist - named Richard Strauss wrote 'Cappricio'. To win the heart of a Countess, a poet and a composer are in competition: they'll both write a piece and the best show will be played on the Countess' birthday. The composer says 'prima la musica - doppo le parole!' while the poet says 'prima le parole - doppo la musica!' No one wins and it's a third show that's played =D

I also remember this quotation: music will draw them, words will keep them. A hot cutie - or guy, ladies shouldn't be forgotten - with no conversation, anyone? Or would you prefer a genius with black teeth?

Personally, I'm glad I don't have to choose. Songs may have the best of both worlds, as they are words AND music. And to go back to this thread's topic, IMHO, lyrics are 50% of the song (I know that friends of mine said 10% only, I beg to differ) and music (melody, performance, production) accounts for the remaining 50%. It's a fact that it takes more cash to invest in musical gear. Apart from that, it also takes long years of practice to master one's language. Reading, writing, more reading, more writing, workshops, seminars, even more writing, etc ... Those are the scales and jams of the lyricist. And just like for music and playing, it's one in a million who succeeds at writing great, memorable stuff!

I write lyrics AND I'm a musician. I struggle daily to up my games in both fields. I devote 50% of my time to each I'm glad to give 50% of a song's rights to whoever contributes to better it, whether the lyrics or the music is concerned. Because we all write songs in the first place.

As for Haze and Polly's business model, my opinion - just that - is: whatever works for you, really!

Nowadays, major artists claim - and get - part or integrality of the publisher's share as compensation for cutting your song. How fair is that?
Record labels claim - and get - part or integrality of the artist's money from merchandising (360° deals). How fair is that?

But how fair is illegal downloading and the politicians' attitude?

So, what I was saying: whatever works for you. Everybody tries to make a living and it's hard. The rules have changed. But we shouldn't be mistaken, great quality comes with a price. that will never change!

Have a great day,

Yann

My comments were general and not specific....I have no idea as to what particular song Polly is referring to and what went on in the process of writing or recording it. My comments are about the amount of time and effort generally spent in music writing, recording and production as compared to just writing lyrics only.
Having written lyrics only as well as providing music to existing lyrics and recording my own songs I know which is easier and less expensive and time consuming.
I do accept that lyrics are important BUT there is no doubt in my mind that in most genres it is the music, performance and production that sells....the job of the studio is seldom recognised and given the due respect and rewards it truly deserves.
As stated in previous posts most people will remember a tune etc but forget all but a few lines of the lyrics.
The reason that most musicians and studios do a work for hire giving their creative input away for nothing is that they realise that very few if any songs will make dollar one so it is the only way they can eke out a living......
Not many lyricists I know are asked for a work for hire agreement.
My posts are not meant to belittle or anger lyricists I just mean to educate them as to what really happens.
Without lyricists requiring music written and demos done on a work for hire basis most studios would be quickly out of business.

Music is a Business/Songwriting is an Art. Quantifying the two is a Skill best-expressed as "Fifty-Fifty" when Lyrics-meet-Melody, in All-Fairness. Otherwise, Lawyers take over both the Business AND the Art part..as it looks like they've already succeeded in doing..No?

I get BOTH Words AND Music as I write..but CHOOSE to get a Musician-Involved BECAUSE I want a Better SONG..and because I don't have TIME to learn an instrument/re-learn how to run a Studio/or have much money/etc-etc-etc.

Words ARE Everywhere..& SO ARE Notes. But each side of the Spectrum has a GIFT at How-To-Arrange these. I can take YOUR MELODY and fit Good WORDS to Them, just as You can take MY Words and fit MUSIC to it.

Now, I understand how Polly's real-protective of her Musical Partner/I respect both her & her Guitar-Guy's Credentials & Dues-payings as-well. But she kinda disrespects the Other Side of The Fence's dues-paying IMHO. I've spent literally THOUSANDS of Hours UN-PAID as I mastered this craft. (Vs making $45-100 an hour fixing clocks.) Travelled MANY a Time to US's Music Capitals getting to know people/learning The Game/& yeah, writing with some of the Bigger Folks, "Working My Way Up/Building Credibility" JUST like her Guitar Hero did. Mostly All On My Own Nickel.

We serious Lyricists don't GET the Crowd-Adulation On The Way Up...but...we DO like a little Appreciation...AND a Fair Split...WHEN that Song DOES get to the Recorded State.

WISH I could remember Names...can't..but there's a tale of this Famous Composer's Wife, accompanied by his Lyricist's Wife...at this Big Soiree..& an Onlooker's Wife says "OH..Your Husband wrote "Fill in Name of Famous SONG Here" and Lyricist's Wife says "No..MY Husband wrote that...HERS wrote "Da-Da-Da-Da-Da-Da-Dum"....

R-E-S-P-E-C-T...(I also forget the Rest of those Words...but..that's what I'm Gettin'-At here today.)

Best Wishes/Big 50-50 Hugs,
Stan

Recently I found a site that lists Publishers, Producers, etc that lists if you can send songs un soliciated or they want you to write for permission first to send.

I purposely decided to test the waters by sending a letter to those that required you write first to see if they were accepting material. I sent out about 10 letters.

None responded. About what I expected. Most if not all the Publisher's, have about all the material they can use so getting something signed is probably about nil.

So trying to get lyrics only placed is probably Non Existant. If you write lyrics only it is best you hook up with someone that plays an instrument. Sometimes you can find co-writers at local music stores.

Some demo services will write you a melody if you don't have one but it is best if you work up a melody yourself for a song.

A fellow was pushing a small trailer with vegetables down the road when another fellow drove up and asked him if he needed any help and that he would allow him to hook his trailer to his truck if he would pay for half the gas. "I would if I had any money" he replied "but If you'll help me get to the town market, I'll split the sale of my produce with you, but I have no idea how much I'll sell"
Then Paul Newman comes by and said" I can sell these tomatoes at twice the price of any other vendor because of who I am"
many sides to the beach ball, grass mulitlegged creature.
Wyndham

I think this is about it for me on this one.

Polly
I never said it doesn't take talent and a lot of work to put music to a song.
I have been doing this for about 6 years now and have spent some time around folks who are very talented I see how much effort goes into all of this.

My only problem with this is the difference between a demo and a master.
A Demo is done by someone working for hire. You pay them. They produce a good product for you to use in promoting your song. The whole purpose of that is to get someone else to license the song, cut, put it on a CD and sell it and make money. You, the writer, are then paid a royalty. I won't go into the details of how you are paid, that's another subject.
The point is it is a DEMO. The STUDIO that did the DEMO gets nothing beyond payment for producing the DEMO.

When one person writes a song, writes the melody, and sits in their own studio and records the song it is there own song. They own it. ALL of it. It is not a DEMO they can do with it whatever they want. Publish it, Pitch it, sell copies of it, License it, Perform it, Make as much money on it as they want and they don't have to share a single penny of the profit with anyone. UNLESS they have a co writer. The they share the profit with the co writer. The way they share it is up to them. it can be 50/50, 60/40, 70/30, whatever they agree on.

You have the idea that the person writing the lyric is somehow less deserving of that than the person writing the music. I can accept that. It is your opinion. I happen to think they are equal.

Once two people create a song. Lyric and Melody they then go into a new phase. They must orchestrate the song. And someone must perform it.

If I sit down with someone and work out a song singing and playing my guitar I don't tell the co writer I get more credit because I can play the guitar and sing better than they can. We share in the song equally.
When I reach over and hit the record button on my software and record the song I don't say Hey I recorded it that'll be ten bucks.
If I then put a lead track on it I don't add another ten bucks. Or if I play a little Bass.
That's about it for me. I don't know how to do any more than that musically. If I need any more instruments I have to pay someone. But they are work for hire and DO NOT OWN ANY PORTION OF THE SONG AND DO NOT GET ANY FUTURE BENEFIT FROM THE SONG.

I do know how to Mix the song and can burn it down to a CD.

If you think I have no talent go check a few of the songs on my CD. I did ALL the production work on them. They ain't perfect but I am pretty proud of them. I did have a professional musician helping on the music So those great guitar licks are not me. But they were work for hire. They are not co writers. The guitarist got paid for his work and gets no future earnings from the CD. IF there are any.

That Haze is very talented and has great credentials I have no doubt. That he deserves more credit than the Lyricist for writing the melody I do not agree. They are equal, IMHO.
That he deserves more credit for orchestrating the song I agree. For recording it I agree.
BUT that credit should be part of the Co write agreement. In the Split. if they agree.
If the song ever goes anywhere, gets released or gets licensed and cut BOTH the co writers get paid royalties.
That is what co writing is all about.

If you think the lyric writer should be paying you for your contribution to the project and giving you a co write that is up to you.
I only tried to give you my opinion on the fairness of the situation. Whether you agree or not is your choice.

Polly
the Musicians who played on my demo were ALL prodigies. One is a regular on the Grand Old Opry. One has played 16 number ones. They did not ask for a co write. They contributed licks, melodies, and creative fills. It was there job as a work for hire. Had they asked cor a co write I can assure you I would not have paid them.

Big Jim
WE agree. Ain't that something.


So. DEMO studios know very few songs ever get anywhere so rather than take a co write on future earning they provide their expert music skills and production skills as a, drum roll here, Work for hire.

Where have I read that before?

OK This is it from me also.....We do not have the "Demo" system you have.....we either use our own facilities or hire a studio AT FULL RATE to produce a recording of any song we write. Either way this costs EXTRA to just writing the song IE words and music. If a person uses a studio albeit his own to produce something over and above just writing the tune.....this production deserves at least a work for hire payment. He already fulfilled his 50% of the arrangement with the cowriter by writing the tune. I do not charge friends for this extra work and include JPF members as friends but I can see why some people should in principle get paid for the extra step of recording the song. All cowriters should split these costs. If you were to put proper business practices to this arrangement in theory the lyric writer should fork out half of the costs of the equipment hire, studio time etc.....
Musicians usually lose out on a work for hire as they work at cut rates. if the resulting work makes the song any money they get no extra..... As most of the time it is their musicianship and studio production that sells rather than the words and melody THIS SEEMS UNFAIR...but it is a numbers game and that is the chance they have to take. They are all but forced to make this arrangement otherwise they would put in a lot of work for no financial reward.

For the record, I wrote "If You Could" in about 10 minutes...lyrics and melody. It was straight from the heart. The "martian radio station" in my head came on, out of nowhere, and I scrambled for a pen and paper as the song flooded through me. I kept singing it to myself all the way home until I could get to my guitar and work out the chords. Most lyrics I write are easy to me, because I write strictly from the heart and real-life experiences. Even when I cowrote with Travis, and it took us two months to agree on the final lyric, I didn't spend that much time on it. I applied a time of my life to the song, and from my heart came words.

Writing a GOOD melody is a whole 'nother ball game. VERY difficult, even for prodigies. People can write melodies all day long, but are they GOOD? Are they catchy and memorable? THAT'S what people remember, that's what sticks in their heads. Good lyrics are important, but as we all know, there are songs (like "Billy Don't Be a Hero") that made it that suck scissors as far as lyrics, but the melody was catchy enough to stick in people's heads.

Even having said that, fine, the lyricist and the melody writer get 50/50. Agreed.

Then there is the business of MUSICATING the song, SINGING the song, PRODUCING the song, MIXING the song, and DELIVERING the final product. I don't know any lyricists personally who are involved in this process. Again, Haze is probably a unique situation, but his involvement in those aspects of the song are worth EVERY PENNY of the $150, because he usually gets upwards of $400 (or at least he did in Nashville when he wasn't touring).

Roy made a good point. Helen wrote some clever lyrics, but HAZE was able to interpret them in a way that turned them into a catchy tune. Yes, I sang it, but Haze told me what to sing. BTW, I don't ask for cowrite on ANYTHING! I strictly AM a work-for-hire. I just go in and do what Haze tells me to. I trust that he knows what he's doing, and I give him what he wants. BTW, imagine that song without the acoustic bass Haze added, free of charge. It would be COMPLETELY different! He knew it needed that to drive it, so he put the extra time in adding that. That's how he works on EVERY song.

Bill, you're talking apples and oranges here. You hired guys to play parts on a song that already had a lyric, melody, and structure. All they had to do was come up with a guitar part, etc. That's TOTALLY DIFFERENT than having to take some words and build a song around that, and then be paid $150 with no future royalties.

Since I've been doing demos, I've noticed how unfair it is to the musicians who have to make payments on $100,000 of equipment, spend HOURS playing on and tweaking the music, mixing it down, and sending it off. They end up making less than $1 an hour. And no further residuals. It's not worth a talented musician's time. And too, there's the quality factor...Joe Blow who tinkers with it compared to someone who's actually a professional musician. Payless shoes versus Prada. Both of 'em will cover your feet, but one will just barely do the job, the other will show your feet off and last a lot longer because they're better built.

That's all the more I have to say on the matter. There seem to be two camps here; one that believes writing words is just as equally difficult as writing a melody, playing instruments, firing up a studio, investing in the equipment, recording, mixing, and delivering a final product, and another that believes writing words in no way compares to the rest of the huge amount of work that goes into making A SONG.

Someone said "Write your lyrics with a melody in mind." Make sure it's a good one, is all I can say. I've heard some piss poor melodies that had to be redone too, i.e., the melody literally had to be rewritten making it again, COWRITE territory. I said it before and I'll say it again, if this is the way the music industry operates, it's very unfair and needs to be changed!

Well, at the risk of hanging myself again, I'll offer a few comments and questions.
I consider myself, primarily, as a lyricist. But I do write the melodies for my lyrics. I then send my very unfinished product off to a professional demo firm. In every case, they add professional musicians, or a professional production (when the "firm" is one guy who is good at computer music production). I pay for these services. I pay extra for the singer of my choice.
In the end, I get a finished product, and they have got my money for providing this product. If I am ever successful at getting a major artist to cut a song, they are entitled to zero.
However, if Polly, or anyone else, provides the melody (and note I didn't say the background chord progressions), she, because she provided a unique part of the song is entitled to a co-write. The arranger is only entitled to a co-write if an artist cutting the song uses his or her arrangement.
My opinion, corrections will be considered.
Ott

Bill:
I just noticed the kitty-cat in your picture. Delightful!!!
Ott

Polly
I won't belabor this any further.

Let me know if you get any takers on this co write arrangement. I will pass it along to some folks I know. I am sure they would like to be paid for doing co writes as well.

Hey Ott
We was just kickin' back takin' a nap.
His name is Harley. The name fits his personality.

Oh yeah...did someone answer Sam's question?

The reason there are two camps is because lyric writers generally have no idea as to the amount of work that goes into writing music and recording a song in comparison to writing just lyrics.....if they did their attitudes might change. It is no secret that lyrics can be penned in a matter of minutes.....many hit songs have been written on a bus.......big difference in writing music.
Sometimes a musicator has to almost rewrite the lyrics to get it to meter. Polly made a great point about arrangement and performance......gone are the days when a guitar/voc sold the song........people want full blown productions......and that is what sells the song.....not words and simple melody.......Try to imagine some of the recent chart hits performed as a simple guitar/voc.....it just would not happen.....folk would laugh at the crap words and melody.
I note that lyricists defend an equal split despite knowing that musicians work is harder and more time consuming.....to claim that it takes as much time and knowledge to write lyrics is nonesense. Musicians who contribute a MAJOR part of the song have no entitlement sucks BIG TIME.
I remember hearing about a guitarist who did session work for hire...he was asked to provide an OFF THE CUFF lick during recording a film theme tune.......It is probably the most famous guitar lick ever The James Bond Theme. The guitarist go no extra and no creditation whatsoever......HMMMMMM.
I hope that if any lyricist ever makes it with a song they would give credit and a percentage of income to the REAL guys behind the work.

There seems to an awful lot of stereotyping going on here with composers who regard lyric writing as easy and vice versa.

I only write the occasional lyric. My musical output far exceeds the words. If it really was so easy, I'd be writing lyrics much more often.

Sure, some people can write a lyric in a pretty short time, but that's true of some musicians composing tunes too.

I've got both tunes and lyrics that I wrote in minutes, but there are others I've been messing around with since 1991 or thereabouts.

Steve I take your point.....the main argument I have is not with writing the tune or lyric it is about making a recording and paying for it. Most lay folk, and I include lyric only writers when I say this, have no clue as to how much time and skill it takes to record a demo or a song.
As you will know from writing and recording your own music it takes many studio hours and much editing time to lay down even just a couple of tracks. My point is that this skill, time and effort is not recognised either financially or credit wise.
Perhaps if lyricists visited a studio and saw first hand how complicated and expensive the gear was and how time consuming the recording, editing, mixing and mastering process was they might have a different perspective.
Some misguided people think a 5min song takes 5mins to record.

I definitely don't want to belittle any part of the recording process, but it turns out that those Nashville demo musicians read music really, really well. As long as the "producer" charts it correctly (in the so-called Nashville notation method), those studio musicians are going to nail that demo song in just a couple of takes and tweaks. It is the real reason that there is a "demo rate" in Nashville. They can really knock out a pro demo that is pretty much radio ready in short order.

I think it is all due to their ability to read nashville charts. They also understand the modern country sound and they have a stable of licks at the ready. This, of course, comes from years and years of practice, gigging and studio work.

Kevin

I understand that Kevin...IMO they are still grossly underpaid and undervalued. Not everyone wants a Nashville demo....and some people want a completed song on a work for hire arrangement to do with as they like.....I think my original point still stands.

Actually, the more sophisticated the gear is, the more convinced a non-muso will be that you only have to press a button and the music composes itself.

I think the hard part is getting a lyricist into a studio.....Lyricists outnumber musicians by a considerable margin......I wonder why.

Big Jim Quote---

[i]The reason there are two camps is because lyric writers generally have no idea as to the amount of work that goes into writing music and recording a song in comparison to writing just lyrics.....[/i]

Jim… it’s those last three words that show the contempt that some musicians have for lyricists…. writing just lyrics….

It is no secret that lyrics can be penned in a matter of minutes.....many hit songs have been written on a bus.......big difference in writing music.

Sure the above is true in many cases.. BUT NOT OFTEN and NOT ALWAYS.

Sometimes a musicator has to almost rewrite the lyrics to get it to meter.

Sure in some case again, but other time the lyrics have been written so well that the music side is much easier to do.

Try to imagine some of the recent chart hits performed as a simple guitar/voc.....it just would not happen.....folk would laugh at the crap words and melody.

Those of us who pay to have music written and full blown demo’s made pay the price that is asked of us. We don’t complain if after 20 years 50 plus songs and many $10000s spent if our songs don’t make it. We carry on and we never blame the studio or musicians.

The studios / musicians or demo singers would never say, are well, YOUR SONGS never made it, have some money back. And I know at times the amounts are small but they add up.

I remember back in 1964 here in the UK paying £3000 for a demo
cause that was the going rate at that time.

And never once has a studio given an opinion as to wether the song was good enough to demo or not. It's always been, "what you give us we will do", "and you pay the fee". Simple really.

Actually (I have had the opposite happen once) where the studio said, 'Roy, you have to have this done'.

We also generally pay in advance and what we get is what we get.
So the only looser would be the lyric writer.

Sure it's a gamble and given that the odds of gettng anywhere are virtually nil, we normally own 100% of something that is worthless.

And we keep on doing it and paying studios, hoping that we beat the odds.

I note that lyricists defend an equal split despite knowing that musicians work is harder and more time consuming.....

The above is never set in stone, and anyway it has become the norm as AGREED for years.

If the amount of money that went through studios last year was added up, I suspect that 99% of it was from those who write lyrics and 100% of it went to musicians and studios. And it is big business. Us Lyric writers who take extra jobs to pay for demos, who work all day and then write all night don’t complain we carry on.

Sure tough lyrics require a lot of the composers time, that’s obvious, but great lyrics would be easier to work with.

I am sure that you yourself have said somewhere, ‘As soon as I read the lyrics, the tune came into my head’.

Anyway this is not a pop at anyone or their views.

I am so so thankful that for me, the studio I use has always created great music for me and that’s my opinion. But I paid for that service and should I be succesfull I would not expect to give them a percentage of the song, just as they would never give me any money back, that I have spent over the years on songs that don't make it... lol

Anyway that’s my views and I am sure some will agree with something’s that I have said.

God Bless Roy and Helen

Big Jim
I think that is a myth.
Nashville has more accomplished Musicians than you could imagine. They are every where and can play extremely well. Same with studios. They are every where and most can crank out a high quality demo in a couple hours. Radio ready.
Not just Country either.
I was always amazed at the numbers of folks who could play instruments very well where I lived in Michigan. Good Lyrics on the other hand were hard to find

High quality Lyricists on the other hand are hard to come by.

Why do you think it is pay to play here. It's definitely not because there is a shortage of good musicians.

OK, I've read a whole bunch of songwriting books. I also play a very mediocre guitar. I know all sorts of chord progressions that I can't play -- but are common to tons of hit songs. So, where are you going to get the lyrics? You can program your music workstation to do almost anything. You can pay the best demo firm in Nashville to add the music for your song (as I have).
But, if you don't have decent lyrics, all you have is an instrumental piece. Good luck with that in today's market. Ott

Please folks do not get the wrong idea about what I am saying.....my point is that there are, despite what Bill says, far more lyricists than musicians.....even in Nashville. Brian made that clear in his earlier post. I see posts here and on other sites on a daily basis where people have lyrics but no music and require someone to put music to them.....seldom it is the other way round. Many musicians also write their own lyrics making the odds even greater. Lyricists outweigh composers by a huge margin...FACT.
Most lyricists have no idea about how a studio works and how much time, skill and expertise is needed....FACT.
A lot of people are naturally capable of writing lyrics as compared to going through the business of learning how to play an instrument and write music... FACT
If writing music was easier than lyrics then I would expect lyricists to be in great demand. This is not and never will be the case.
Roy when I said writing just lyrics it was not meant as any kind of insult or sleight.....I was just meaning only lyrics instead of completed songs.
My point Roy is that just because a thing is set in stone does not make it right or fair......There have been tons of crappy hit records over the years that make plenty money where far better songs are left on the shelf....That is set in stone but does not make it right or fair.
With a few exceptions most decent studios will do the best job they can at the best rate they can......by your own admission they do not want any extra credit.
If a studio, even on a work for hire basis, writes a melody to a lyric they have been supplied they have written by definition 50% of the song so are entitled to 50% cowrite. I treat the demo part and work for hire as different. Whatever way it is put they write the music. IMO in most genres it is the most saleable part of a song.

My point is simple........lyricists should learn more about music theory and the ability to play an instrument would help.
Sadly most do not have the time, dedication or drive to learn.

My final point is that studios and musicians are underpaid and under valued......I had to get a plumber recently to fix a leak from my washing machine...it took him only a few minutes and he charged a fortune........same applies to car mechanics, painters, carpenters, and most other trades.
If musicians were paid only a fraction of the rates we happily fork out for tradesmen......we would all be happy. LOL

Musicians suffer from the fact that their trade is (usually) also their hobby.

Although the know-how no doubt comes in handy on occasion, there aren't many plumbers who enjoy unblocking people's toilets during their spare time.

Musicians, on the other hand, are perceived as being paid for pursuing a pleasurable pastime.

There's a truth in that, of course. Making music is fun and many of us who aren't professional musos would love to be paid for doing something we love.

But it also has disadvantages. There are any number of people aspiring to be professional musicians who might offer to do work for a lower price and some who will even do it for free in order to get themselves established.

Where do you get this from Jim? What, lyric writers are lazy? stupid? Don't have time? Like musicians do? How many musicians do you know? How many Lyricists?
Musicians are a dime a dozen in Nashville whether you want to believe it or not. So are Studios. Everyone has one in their basement, garage, hobby room, whatever. There is recording equipment sitting and gathering dust in every corner of Nashville.
Musicians here pay to play. Why? because every venue in town has musicians lined up outside their door trying to get a spot.

Most lyricists also play some instrument. That we have a few dozen here that do not does not mean every lyric writer does not. And with a few exceptions nearly every lyric writer on JPF plays some instrument.

The reason musicians don't get paid as much as plumbers is because there are a heck of a lot more musicians than there are plumbers. I don't know about where you live but here a Plumber spends about 5 years learning his trade under a master plumber and then must be licensed to practice his trade.
Anyone can be a musician. No license, no school, no apprenticeship under a master musician for 5 years.
Practice, get good, and you are a musician.
I know 15 year old kids that can play an instrument well enough to be considered professional. I don't know too many 15 year old plumbers, or lyric writer for that matter.

I go to writers nights and places like Doaks. Their are dozens of great guitar players there singing the lyrics they wrote.
Most of the time I wish they would just play the music and keep their mouth shut because the lyrics suck.
When publishers listen to 50 to 100 songs on Thursday night at NSAI they are not listening for great music. They are listening for great lyrics. They rarely hear any because great, fresh, unique lyrics are very hard to write..
The Music, played by musicians, is usually very good. Why?

Most lyrics are weak because writing a truly good lyric is very hard to do IMHO.

This does not mean I don't respect and appreciate great musicians. I do. I find it fascinating to watch a truly gifted guitar player play. I do appreciate how much dedication and work it takes to learn an instrument. It is hard work, takes great patience and persistence, and TALENT. I envy those folks because I know I will never be that good.

Bill I never said lyric writers were stupid or lazy...you try to make out I did. I said that lyric only writers should learn to play and write music it would make them better at writing songs. I can only guess as to why a lot of lyric writers just stck to writing lyrics without having the skill to write music.
Yes you are correct that Nashville is awash with wannabes as other folk have made it clear that it is a mecca and all the other things you say......Not everybody in N is a musician though I bet or has a studio....I bet there are a lot of non musicians trying to peddle lyrics just the same. Sad that so many great musicians shoul be exploited by paying to play and having to produce such great demos so cheaply. Capitalism at its best or worst depending on POV.

I quote Brian from a previous post on this thread.....I am of the opinion that he has his finger on the pulse more than most.

"Every literate person in the world can write a lyric (and sometimes it seems like they have). When they hear inane lyrics make it as hit songs they reasonably think "I can write something better than that" and they may actually be right some of the time. I've long said that music is all about production and melody. Lyrics mean very little in most genres. Country and some of it's offshoots (Americana etc.) may be exceptions, but they have their share of lame lyric hit songs now and then as well.
"What most lyricists won't accept is that in the world of supply and demand their offering is in the most oversupply of any other part of the finished song by a margin of maybe thousands to 1. On top of that, there is a clear market for music without lyrics, but there is no real market for lyrics without music unless you're as deep and relevent to the national mood as Bob Dylan or one of a dozen people who might be able to cut through the masses in some meaningful way via lyrics only, you're out of luck."
END OF QUOTE
Now in answer to some of the other points you made.....
Nashville and country are the exception where songs are lyric driven.... Most pop music and that is what I am referring to most is beat and production driven. Melody and lyrics come a poor last.
I do not know where you come from but plumbers here take about five years also...whereas guitarists and any other musicians I know devote their whole life to learning to play it takes a heck of a lot longer than 5 years to be a decent guitarist or pianist.

I agree on the point about watching any true artist at work it fascinates me also. That includes great lyricists. Sadly lyricists are to me what Nashville musicians are to you. They are a dime a dozen and have to pay to play IE they have to pay someone else to make up tunes and record their songs.
Here in Scotland there are some great musicians but not in the numbers you seem to have....even so I still think they are exploited more than any other profession.
The reason I am so outspoken on this matter is that WE as fellow musicians and songwriters should respect them more and pay proper dues for their services which IMO includes proper creditation for a cowrite.

I would LOVE to enter Big Jimmy's Studio...and Record-Away...

But..so-far...we've just done 2 rather LOONG-Distance Co-Writes.

let's see..I've penned over 2K Lyrics over the last Decade..to get 2 Songs Co-Written with Big Jim. Whole LOTTA Time-&-Effort on This End...ya gotta admit...

And..I'll respectfully add I KNOW what Jim's put into all his Equipment AND Learning-Curve. I HAVE been in-&-outta Studios over the last 3 Decades..seen some BIGGUNS in L.A., NashCity & Branson MO. In fact, I've spent 65 years "Polishing My Life" so I could pen what I pen...AND spent over $100K in various Studios MAKING Music Happen (& Not Overly-Sucessfully) during the Duration. (I've also ATTEMPTED Performing...with limited success...which is WHY I've ended up a "Mere" Lyricist.)

NOT every Musician ends up "Lead Guitarist" either. So What? (TRY making Successful MUSIC with JUST a Lead Guitarist.)

I've ended up a Lyricist who HIGHLY Respects the Music-Half. Sad Jim's not ended up Quite-as-Respectful about My Half. No Biggie...I just hope Jimmy'll co- with me on a Few MORE Songs...so MAYBE I can help earn us BOTH enough I can PAY Him MORE'n the Usual "50% Split" for that all-important Demo Studio Time...(50% of which IS a "Fair Share")...(Assuming I HAD it to pay him.)

Business IS Business...AND..Respect DOES emanate from Paying One's Bills promptly...AND..Yes, "What's Fair IS Fair".

Best Wishes/Big Guy-Hugs,
Stan

Jim
We are on different sides of the fence on this but that is ok
I appreciate you making my case for me.
There are very few good lyricists.

I wonder if her younger brother is a plumber
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1994835504362469704#

Bill I am sorry but my PC posted my response before I had finished writing it I hit the wrong button LOL... I have amended it please re read.

I had to jump in here (again) because Bill, you're right, musicians are in huge abundance IN NASHVILLE, but that's a very unique situation. Here in Cincinnati, good musicians are no where near as abundant. You also pointed out (or someone did) that a good producer would chart out a song and musicians IN NASHVILLE could do it in two takes. True 'nuf. That's IF you have a good producer with a song already charted out. I'll even give you one up...most musicians IN NASHVILLE can probably come up with parts fairly easily on their own. This is not the case in Cincinnati, at all. Very few people like my friend, Haze, exist. His ability to furnish a good melody and good musication to a lyric is unique here. There are a few other people, but they won't bother with a lyrics-only song. They'd rather work on their own stuff.

Roy makes a good point about a good lyric being easier to set a melody to. That's true. But again, is it a mediocre melody or A GOOD melody? Some demo places will just slap something generic together for a fee and send you on your way. Maybe that's why they don't want cowrite on it. Someone like Haze puts his heart and soul into every lyric that comes his way. He won't send anything mediocre out the door. He won't put his name on it if he doesn't think it's good. Also, he won't work with a lyric if he doesn't think it's a good enough one.

So again, in his case; lyricist and melody writer get 50/50 cowrite. He then seperates himself from that and does the musication, vox, recording, mixing, and delivering the product, all for $150, because he used to get $400 but as part of being cowrite, the lyricist pays a part of Haze's time, and that's fair. The only way the lyricist shouldn't pay anything is if the lyricist also musicates, sings on, records, and mixes the song. The demoing of the song is SEPERATE from writing the lyric/melody, and why should the melody writer do all that extra work for free while the lyricist does nothing beyond provide the lyric? What's fair about that?

Bill, I also agree that there are a lot of crappy lyrics out there. MAB always says, "Try to find a way to say the same idea that's been expressed in hundreds of songs, differently." This is a very difficult thing to do. Writing lyrics and writing GOOD lyrics are two different things. My strategy is to only write about those things I personally know about or have personally experienced. You'll never see me attempt to write about prostate cancer or rocket science.

In closing, I think what Jim was saying was, it's a lot easier for a song to survive as long as it has a catchy melody and good music...the lyric sometimes "gets by"...case in point: Olivia Newton John's "Let Me Be There":

"Let me be there in your morning
Let me be there in your night
Let me change whatever's wrong
And make it right
Let me take you to that wonderland
Where only two can share
All I ask you
Is let me be there."

Not exactly deep, meaningful stuff, but you remember the melody right away, correct? Now, take that melody away, and what do you have? CRAP! Yet the song was a number 1 hit!

Wow, is this still going on? Where are we?

Polly, Jim, Bill, what you have generally in the studios in Nashville is that you are working with four or five producers at the same time. If you have a guitarist, bassist,keyboardist and drummers, who ALSO produce demos, and sometimes hit records, you have several producers that bring that certain something to each of their own parts and make suggestions to other parts, usually based upon hit records they have recently played on.

On Wendsday of last week we had a session with Danny Parks, our usual guitar player. He had just come from a session with Ronnie Dunn, who has just left his group Brooks and Dunn for his solo career. So you have some pretty high level people.

Haze is from that type of background. And he and Polly are somewhat isolated in their area so I understand where they come from. In some cases as Jim mentions, we actually have very little to work with.We get someone narrating a lyric into a tape recorder and we have to kind of make up a melody to go with it. At times they don't send anything except a copy of another song and ask us to "do something like that."

So should some of the studios get co-writers credit? In theory yes. In practicality, no. They are involved in the recording and it is simply not asked for. And to be totally honest, a lot of these songs are not exactly anything you want your name on.

But if you are up front with the client and they understand all the options, they can find their own melody or let a pro do it for them, I don't see the problem. Like everything in music, it all comes down to communication.

MAB

Just to point out, as no-one appears to have mentioned it so far, there are other cities in the world.

Yes, it's true.

If you can't 'sell lyrics' in Nashville, the original poster could try selling them somewhere else.

Send me a few, dude. I don't write country and I ain't made any money - but then it doesn't sound like you have either. And, you know, it might be kind of fun.

You can hear some of my stuff on the SoundCloud website at http://soundcloud.com/stevecooke. Some of those tracks feature my own lyrics, some were co-written with other wordsmiths.

I've only recently got back into this songwriting malarkey but, hey, I'm getting quite a following now. See you on the 'Cloud.

Whenever I consider a lyricist who works alone, I always feel compelled to offer this advice: work with a composer.

In other words, if you write a lyric all by yourself, you are free to call the shots on meter, rhythm, etc. You get to dictate the skeleton upon which the melody must conform. But you are also skipping out on the hard work of having to match the words and melody together.

To me, that's a critical piece of songwriting work, and it's often the hardest part. There are three ways to do it:

-If the music is written first, the burden falls on the lyricist.
-If the lyrics are written first, the burden falls on the composer.
-If the song is written together, the burden is shared.

So...if you are solely a lyricist, have you tried it all three ways?

Steve,

As we always note, there certainly are more cities in the world.
As it is also usually noted that most music has gone to totally self contained. The artist is the writer and in most formats don't consider outside songs.

Nashville is pretty much the last place where you can actually have songs considered for an artist that he or she did not write. And since Sam Wilson, the originator of this post,lives and works in Nashville, this one is focused around that.

Part of the reasons for sites like this are to provide avenues for people from all cities, states or countries to link up. If you are looking for lyrics, as you see here there are plenty of people ready willing and able to provide them. All you have to do is ask.

Might even think of starting your own thread.

MAB

Wow what a great posting.

Some agree to agree and others disagree to agree and others agree to disagree and still we are all talking in a good civilised way.

If only governments and countries could behave like us members of JPF the world would be so much better.

---------

PS. up until 3 years ago all our demo's were done in the UK and when I found this site and the Nashville studios it was Eureka for us.

A full Demo with top (and I mean top) musicians and top vocalists for between $400 - $600.

I have to admit that without this we would not be having demo's made as often or as good as we do.

Jim, I do feel that the studios and singers In Nashville give so much for so little. But they give their prices and I pay it.

If you were offered a service for x-amount would you then say wow that's too cheap and offer to pay substantially more. (and I don't mean a tip).

If the prices are too low then it's the studios and musicians who have made it so.

To a degree many studios in Nashville have a production line. They have it down to a fine art. Lyrics come in with cash, songs go out. They are happy and the lyric writer is happy. Why not.

I know that a lot of studios go that extra mile in getting as high a quality as they can into the end song, and I think that maybe personal pride in what they do.

I suspect that value for money depends on where you are.

I often wonder just how many songs a studio can turn around in an average week.


pps:

I think I am almost ready to start writing the next song.
The last one drained me mentally trying to attain perfection and then working for 2 weeks double hours to raise the cash for my demo. It left me with $10 in my pocket, so I am now working to make up my rent....

Please no sympathy.. I chose my bed to lie on...and YES I am happy.. lol

God Bless to all roy & Helen

Roy,

Glad you have had a good experience. Where are you located by the way?

I compare the Nashville process, songwriting, recording, performing, etc. as comparison to "Method acting" or "Improve comedy." it has a certain amount of production line craft issues.There are only so many notes, so many ways to say "I love you."

But there is also a spirit that we try (and I am only speaking for myself and the people I work with here but think you would find a lot of it) to bring something "special" to everything we do. Our reputation rides on anything we do.

The same as a method actor. When they are on the stage, or screen, they have rehearsed a part, read the script,gotten the formula for that part down. But they are able to give a little something extra to each part, inhabit it and give them something special in each thing. The improv comedians have the same thing. There are forumlas, certain methods for set up and delivery, but there is something that creates "magic" when they are able to turn it on.

If you ever get a copy of a Jim Carey movie, and watch the "outtakes" at the end of a scene, you will see how he delivers different nuances to each performance. That is what makes the magic.

I would like to think we do the same thing. We find the center of the part we are creating or the song we are writing, inhabit it with our own personalities and talents.

We try to make magic. Not 100% effective,but I would venture that most are more pleased than dissapointed.

MAB

Sorry Stan you also have taken what I say the wrong way. I admire and respect everyone involved in music regardless of what they do and their level of ability. Lyric writers are IMO a very important part of music...... You are an obvious exception about knowing what happens in studios and how much skill these guys have and how much time and expensive equipment is needed to do even basic stuff. The majority of lyric only people generally do not. They also do not appreciate how hard it is to set music to lyrics especially as Mark said when they have not had input in writing them.
Steve you are wrong..... I also mention that there are other places than Nashville and the rules and styles in these places are completely different. Sadly some people have blinkered vision and Nashville is the centre of the universe to them.
They have little knowledge,

interest and concern about other places.
There are numerous people on this site who would love to put lyrics to your tunes...you just have to ask.
Bill you do not make sense.....even in country music it is the production and melody that makes most songs a hit.....I like a lot of the songs if it were not for some of the crappy lyrics. I do not believe that producers are looking for lyrics they are looking for melodies and arrangements. Lyrics are a final thought and most artists can supply their own.

On a general note I am referring to someone who has little or no musical knowledge and writes a poem probably in under an hour...now it might not meter or rhyme properly follow a format etc etc etc yet the musicator/studio is expected to put music to it and record the song to a high standard for a pitiful work for hire. Then to add insult they do not even want to give 50% of a cowrite.
There are lots of great lyricists BUT nobody who makes the decisions about todays pop music are really that interested in lyrics as a first resort as it is the marketing, hype, production and star status of the artist that sells not the song itself.

Marc you said it all so well. Thanks.

I am in London UK.

I know that the studio boss who does my demos (Gary Carter) always goes above and beyound. Yep he isn't the cheapest, but I have never once not been bowled over by his finished demos.

To be honest, if another studio said they would do a demo for half his price I would pass on it.

He does tell me that I am one of his best customers lol.

I always pay before he starts and never complain. There hasn't been a reason to complain.

Sometimes I change lyrics at the last moment and he dosn't mind. He even phoned me one time while they where doing the vocals to ask if the singer could change one word.

And in ref to the way this posting has turned, It was Gary who TOLD ME that writing a melody for me was 'work for hire' (I pay seperatly for that service) and he explained what that meant.(the melody belonging to me).

He genuinely is ok with our arraingement.

I did post an article I wrote many moons ago about my initial experiances with Nashvile demos studio.

'Is Nashville the demo ‘Capital of the World'

But I think it's long gone.

Anyway friend it's always good to conflab with you.

God Bless Roy and Helen

No worries Big Jim

I hope this is a friendly discussion and we can agree to disagree.

When it comes to music I do recognize you experience in the matter and do take what you say seriously.

Tell ya what, Stan. Visit my studio instead: http://tinyurl.com/stevecooke-studio

Bill I disagree with a lot of people especially when it is something I am passionate about......BUT I never bear grudges or cast things up.....

I do not mean to harm or insult I just say it as I see it. Sometimes I am wrong......but regardless I still think musicians are exploited and taken for granted...it is always the bimbo who cannot sing who gets all the credit and revenue when in fact it is the musicians and studio engineers who turned her crappy ditty into a hit song.

Perhaps musicians would get more respect if they treated the other people involved with respect too.

Often it's, what you call, the "bimbo" who will make anyone else in the world care about your song, who will give it the life that maybe you couldn't achieve on your own.

If you didn't need a front person to perform the song, you wouldn't ask one to get involved.

That deserves some respect too. And maybe a little less misogyny.

I do not normally ask any front person to perform my songs I mostly perform other peoples songs for a living. As for the bimbos...well we ALL have to accept that not always the most talented make it big. I respect them for making it but cannot condone the corrupt biz for allowing it to happen.....for every bimbo there are hundreds of more talented people who could and should have been given a chance of stardom first.

Bimbo Definition "A YOUNG WOMAN INDULGED BY RICH AND POWERFUL OLDER MEN" is an apt word for a lot of these so called stars...they have great looks but show little intelligence or musical prowess. They are a product of hype marketing and other peoples talent.