JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Gigs That SUCK!!!

After much promoting and anticipating of an upcoming gig, my band, The J. D. Jackson Band played it last night. IT SUCKED! It was at a club out in the sticks in Independence, KY. The reason we ever agreed to play it is because we've been trying to break into the Northern KY club scene, and this club had a cancellation and needed us. First off, this club likes BOTH kinds of music...COUNTRY and WESTERN! We play obscure classic rock up to present rock, some of it pretty hard. The club manager who booked us knows this...said we'd "go over fine."

My guitar player's father died Friday morning after a long battle with cancer. My guitar player put on a brave face and played the gig anyway. Thankfully, his two brothers and some friends showed up at this inbredded watering hole to support him.

I started a band tab at the bar. My guitar player and I are the only ones who drink. My fatal mistake: I didn't ask if the band got a discount. I never had to ask...we always DID! So, me being a bourbon girl, I drank a few shots of Maker's Mark during the night and bought a couple for Dave. I had a few beers as well. At the end of the night...MY TAB WAS $80!!! People, I wasn't even buzzed! The shots were tiny, like 3/4 of a shot. I KNOW I didn't drink SIX BEERS, and one of the beers I drank an audience member bought. They had ELEVEN shots down...not even possible! Then I asked, "Doesn't the band get a discount?" The little wench behind the bar said, "Sometimes, depends on the band. Not you guys." She charged $4.50 for each under poured shot and $2.75 for each beer. Then added tax. So, out of the hundred bucks I made, I went home with twenty.

On top of that, we gave a GREAT performance, Dave held up like a real pro, I have to say my vocal performance and stage performance was one of my best ever, we won over a crowd who hated rock and didn't know ANY of our songs...didn't even deserve our talent if you ask me, and we STILL got treated like crap! I had dumbass inbreds coming up to me all night asking me if we knew any country. Do we seriously sound like we know country??? Then some guy had the NERVE to say, "At first, I thought we'd have to boo you guys off...your music is so different, but y'all are GOOD! Too bad you don't do country."

The crowd was rude and bipolar. In the end, we succumbed to whoring ourselves and did "Best Shot", "Honky Tonk Woman", "Pride and Joy" and "Lovin' Touchin' Squeezin'" so those mindless sheep could writhe around on the dance floor. They LOVED US then! I just wanted to stick a sharp object in my eye and be done with it!

I'm so PISSED about the bar tab. I want to call the club manager and say, "If I was a customer, I would have just left because you're prices are too high for the small shots that you underpour...but I COULDN'T leave because I was playing in the band. Unless you want us to bring our own bottle, you need to comp us!" I know those crooked barmaids added a few to the tab as well. They got pissed when they heard me complain to someone about the size of the shots.

Oh, to top it all off, there was almost a big bar brawl. This woman was getting in this guy's face, he was there with another woman, and the bouncer kept telling this woman to leave and then she went off on him, and people started jumping in. The band was hurrying to pack up the guitars and I stood by our tall bass player (always hang with a BIG guy!)

Hi Polly,

so typical!
Never mind, if you ever come to France - or when I come to Ohio, if it pleases God - I'll serve us a whole bottle of Jack Daniels and never think of VAT, tab, price, dollars, whatever! Alcohol should be free for musicians, period! Ain't life hard enough like that?

It all goes back to a society problem. What's free ain't worth a penny. Entitlement generation. Come on, jesters, entertain us! At least the tie is not strangling us!

I know how you feel! But blood is boiling in our veins while theirs is only clogging! Most important thing is you ROCKED!

Take care, Yann

So glad you rocked it!! Kudos to your guitarist.

I don't drink. But that does sound expensive!!

And well... You WERE in KY....

Dang, Polly:

Sounds like a tough night up in coal country. No wonder those schnooks needed a replacement band. When a band gets treated like that, the establishment will quickly get a rep for being "mercenary" and sooner or later, they'll be "belly up."

Sorry you had such a good night coupled with a real bummer. My congrats to your fellow musicians who had the "cahones" to "soldier on" despite frigid conditions, bar brawls and all the other rotten breaks. Makes me glad I don't perform... but it sure makes me appreciate Toby Keith's song... "I Love This Bar"... LOL! (I hope you've seen that video of the band in a cage to protect them from flying objects.)

You guys need a good manager... but I'm not volunteerin'... no sireee! Thanks for sharing your interesting story. Like I said in another one of your posts... you need to be a story writer... not a songwriter who struggles and sings. Take Big Bob with you next time, he'll show those Turkeys a thing or two!

Best,

Dave

Polly,

I understand your feelings. But I ask you to look at your posts. You first of all say what the club is, that they are more of a country audience,you are going into THEIR living room and the reason you are wanting to do it is because you want to break in where THEY are.

The drinking situations happen because so many bands run up incredible tabs and then don't make enough to cover it. That scene in the Blues Brothers movie is very true. They have had bands come in, can't play their tabs, and then act like assholes.

We all want to judge our audiences by our own standards and that just doesn't work. You had a bad night, learn from it.You thought on your feet, came up with some songs they could get into and did a good job.

A replacement band is never going to get a drink break until they earn it by meeting the fan base and proving they can keep them there and keep them drinking, thereby making the club money. Did they rip you off, probably not, but you probably had some people put drinks on your tab and tell them you said it was okay.

This is the stuff that happens.Part of the cost of doing business.

I would make some notes and have a band meeting.

This is what we are going to have to do and what we are going to have to watch out for.

As artists or musicians,we are always very quick to blame everyone else. Clubs are not perfect.They have shows going on all the time, payroll to make, insurance to pay,drinks,food, all of that crap none of us would want to deal with so we don't.

I would decide what it means to you to play there again and if it is not enough, don't do it.

But don't blame the club or belittle customers. It never looks good and you can't do anything about it any way.

And by the way, about half the gigs that I do end up being like that too. It is what it is and ain't what it ain't. (Yeah, I wrote that one too.)

MAB

Yes, I have come away from gigs before owing the b@$tards money and I don't drink much. We are very picky about where we play these days. Did you do Mustang Sally?

Cheers,

Colin

Humm,
Do you not have a business plan? I would work up a plan to handle these type situatiuons in the future.

It seems bands I have seen in the past do not drink any acholic beverages during most of the gig as they don't play as well. SO, I would have a hard and fast rule no achoal at least thru 50 to 75 percent of the gig. I would encourage that band members bring their own drinks. It is pretty easy to buy everythig they need at Walmart. Coffee, soft drinks, etc.

I would NOT set up a Bar Tab. Anything from the Bar would be paid for as it is gotten.

I don't know if you have a requirment about being paid up front but I would require a basic fund when I showed up, at least ten dollars per band member in advance. The rest at the end of the gig.

If you don't have one I also would have a Tip Jar in plain sight and a request jar for song requests. Also put some money in the Tip Jar so people will be encouraged to Tip.

And inform the band members of the ground rules. I know some musicians are overloaded with personality so you have to be like a Marine Sargent.

Hi Polly, wow ... well learn from that experience, and next time they ring you up, to fill in when they have been let down ... give them a one finger salute and use that very popular Anglo Saxon phrase that consists of two words ... "off" being the one before the full stop or period as you call it.

...And NOW ya know WHY that Club HAD that Cancellation! ;-)>

Ya got My Sympathy, Polly. All that Haulin' for a $20? Lordy!

Guess ya oughta do an Updated Version of Willie's "On The Road Again"...or a Parody to it.."On The Cheap Again"...

Better-Luck Next-Gig, M'LadyChum... (Prolly shoulda got $20 worth of Moonshine there...coulda morn' doubled-your-money for it back in Ohio..) (SOME things they do RIGHT in Kentucky...!)

Peace, Big Hugs, Best Wishes,
Stan

I mean SERIOUSLY...an $80 bar tab would have had me in a BLACKOUT...calling some 300 lb. Chinese guy "Brad Pitt" before throwing up all over the parking lot!

No, Colin, our MAIN GOAL was to AVOID doing Mustang Sally!

Yann, yer so cool!

Marc, you make total sense (as always, damn you! ) Thanks for weighing in.

Linda, my guitar player is AWESOME! This was therapy for him, after watching his father battle cancer. I was only glad that he did this gig because our band is FAMILY and we NEEDED to be with him, and him with us, at a time like this!

Ray, we wouldn't be able to succumb to that business plan. We do JUST FINE on one beer a set and a shot. Sorry, it makes us relax. Iffin we were making MEGA dollars a gig we might curtail our little activities, but not for $100 a night when we KICK ASS! This is a band where everyone gets along, NO ego problems, actually a DREAM situation if we could just find a permanent bass player. There's no drama whatsoever.

Puddlegum, yeah, I'm about READY to turn down any future jobs with that particular club!

Thanks Stan, for your support!

Polly.. of course you realize in MY case your're preaching to the choir and will get ZERO sympathy on my part.. WELCOME TO MY WORLD!! Love ya!

Polly I just have to say I've known ya for a week but I think you're SO AWFULLY COOL. I still have to hop to MySpace & listen to your rock - I have chimed in on a couple'of your own MP3s ---

But even without listening to your band yet it sounds like a group really TOGETHER, really there for each other (except you need to find your John Deacon) and I have the feeling if you got some songwriting going and a good manager or label under your feet you have the moxie to go somewhere.

Get out of bars & start playing REAL ARENAS!


...And most pro concerts I've watched on DVD I see beer glasses all over the piano or wherever so that seems the norm even for the big names.

Brian May reported somewhere that he doesn't - he played once or twice with a buzz (think it was with Joe Perry before Aerosmith all went clean) and couldn't stand it, it messed up his playing.

But that's an individual choice I'd say.

Anyway. It just sounds to me like you have the guts and push and drive to get somewhere, why just stay a bar cover band?
What if you could be more, even a lot more?

If you don't mind my asking.

Linda

I had to laugh Polly. Not at your misfortune but your experience brought back to mind two experiences that I had.

When I was a manager in a previous life I booked a solo singer into a club and the venue promised to promote him.

On the night no one turned up, except me and the singer. (maybe a football match was on the TV).

The owner of the club waited until half way through the second set, then came up to me and his exact words where.

'You can tell that singer to F-Off' I anit paying him'.

I said why not, he has done his job. His reply was Yep I know but no one turned up.

I thought that the only way was to tell the singer exactly how it was and I repeated to him what had been said to me.

He just smiled, said ok, and started packing up.

The whole evening was so surreal.
-------------------

The other time was when a working mans club had two entertainment officers and they hated each other. Each had different musical tastes and they each had their own supporters within the club patrons.

They never talked and worked on different nights.

I booked the Friday night 4 weeks in advance for a Country and Western night and Peter the singer took the booking from me.

On the night when we turned up, half the patrons were dressed in country cloths (I think they were line dancers) and the other half were dressed in ball gowns.

Each set where at different ends of the dance floor and the two entertainment managers were nose to nose having a right old set-to.

Poor old Peter (the singer) I felt sorry for him.

He explained that he didn’t do ballroom material and anyway didn’t have any suitable tracks to play.

One of the ballroom crowd produced a cd with some tracks on and with his crowd of supporters almost threatened Peter.

Peter did his best. He would sing 3 Country songs then play three ballroom dancing songs and the floor kept clearing as each group changed over.

Funnily enough the night was a sort of success.

So I do sympathize with you Polly.

God Bless Roy and Helen

ps. It was just after that I gave up as a manager lol

Studies have shown that one or two drinks a day can be beneficial
to your health but more than that can be harmful to your health and your bank account.

Well,
After reading Marc's post I can only say it may be time to improve your business plan or at least modify it so you don't come out on the short end of the stick. They want you to put on a show. You want to be fairly compensated. Yeah, I know it isn't easy. Think of it this way. You have value. You are worth something. Good luck.

Linda,

I know it sounds great to "get out of the bars and start playing "real arenas" but there is another term you have to be able to do for that. "Put butts in the seats." In order to get to those 10-17,000 arenas, you have to play a WHOLE bunch of those gigs like Polly has just done.

some of the biggest acts out there right now, Zac Brown, of country music fame, for example, did ten years in Atlanta of just that.

There is an element of bullshit in any profession. Doctors that do long hours and years of training before making any real money. Building businesses with no one helping you, just limping along until something breaks through.

The music industry is one of those business where "everyone is doing' these days. So the options for venue owners is limitless.
One of the reasons they have switched to Karaoke music is that they can play whatever the crowd wants and the crowd is the part of the show. And they don't have to deal with anything but what the crowd wants. Of course that has all but shut down venues for acts.

In my world, I concentrate totally on making the original music I do and teach about respnonsive to just such as these audiences. When your music is to be played in life, it is not done for a receptive group of people focused on every word you do in a living room. It is being played in front of loud, obnoxious people who couldn't care less about you or your music. You have to earn their attention.

So I think Polly will take this as a challenge and tighten up her next gig. She has been working for a while and is a pretty smart woman. I think she'll do fine. Get the band shaped up, learn some different material that will work in any situation, bring in orignial stuff that will hook any crowd. Then have your special desires and songs AFTER you hook them. Keep em' there, keep em' drinking. That is the nature of the beast.

Polly, now you see a little bit why I try to keep the songs that you love so much in perspective. What you went through the other night is the rule of live performing, not the exception.

MAB

Sounds like you had a great time ..... at least it is a good story for you to tell. Reminds me a little of the Blues Brothers playing in the c&w bar in their movie. One of the greatest scenes ever.

Tom

This reminds me of Justice's first performance - when she was 11 - at Barnes and Noble. They said they would promote her and did not. She practiced her heart out - Only four kids were there listening. I thought she would be crushed but she wasn't. She sang wonderfully and gave a great performance. Luckily this summer made up for it, singing for 6,000 at the Nebraska State Games and signing over 500 autographs afterward.

Tom

Polly:

Pay no attention to MAB (the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain) even though we all know that he's been there and done that... a dozen times over. Sometimes, ya gotta do what ya gotta do and just "let it fly" at folks who treat you like dirt. It's also difficult to fill seats at a venue where you had such limited time to send out the guys and gals with flyers and posters about your band. (Street teamers!)

So when are ya gonna write that best selling collection of short stories? I'm like Linda, a fan for life... simply because you are such a hoot!

Tom, good for Justice! I give 110% whether I'm playing for 10 people or 1,000 (never actually played for more than 2,000 and that was only one time). I would love to be more successful as a performer, but first and foremost, I perform because I love doing it and I love the music we're doing.

Marc hit on something that is important, and will always be a mark against us. Everyone in our band is a seasoned "bar band whore". We've all been in "cheese" bands, playing "Mustang Sally, "Best Shot", "Gimme Three Steps", etc. When Dave and I formed this band three years ago, our mission was to be a "musician's musician" band. We wanted to play B side obscure stuff that was GOOD, that people would know if they liked music, and we wanted to do it better than anyone else. We didn't want a set list like anyone else. We worked hard to pick the songs and make them tight.

Now we are going into "foreign territory" and asking to be paid for what WE want to do. I am realizing how unrealistic that is now. BUT, for once, I'm truly happy as a performer and enjoying every minute of what I do. So it's a double-edged sword.

Bob Cushing is smart. He has a song list of 200 songs. He lays out copies on every table and at the bar where he's playing. He takes requests first. After people stop requesting songs, he then does his original material. Some of his songs he just played the day before, others he hasn't done in ten years and pulls them off like a pro!

Our band will be harder to market because we are NOT a "dance" band...we are a ROCK SHOW band. We're more like watching a concert. We're all about the music. I know there is a market for us, amongst people who seriously care about good musicians and seeing a good live performance, not just there to shake their asses to "Hella Good" and try to hook up with some fresh meat. We are not a background music band. So then the question becomes, "Who is our target audience" and "What are the clubs that host an act like ours, where the audience is actually there to pay attention to the band?"

Back in the day, when the Cincinnati music scene was really thriving, you didn't have several big screen t.v. screens going. If there was one, the club owner turned it off when the band started. The audience actually had a relationship with the band. We were there to entertain, they were there to pay attention and appreciate accordingly. Now, you have several games going on while you're trying to play to an audience that has to choose between you and the t.v.s. It's ridiculous!

To give you an idea of "who we are" as a band, we recently added "Fool For a Pretty Face" by Humble Pie and "Tattooed Love Boys" by The Pretenders. Who else plays this stuff? And we KICK ASS on those songs. Tattooed Love Boys was a real b!tch to get down, all the breaks, and the Humble Pie tune, capturing the ballsy performance of Steve Marriott was a challenge which I completely embraced. THAT'S who we are! I know there's an audience that will appreciate that.

Rule #1: Never run a bar tab at your own gig.

At least, that's a rule I learned over and over again. Cannot be controlled and others always seem to pile on. Better to pay as you go...even better yet to wait till the gig is done.

A whole bottle of Jack Daniels looks cooler, costs less and does more damage. The fact that the bar would disapprove makes it even cooler.

Just kidding. Truth is, drinking at your own gig leads to a bad end...I'd keep it to a minimum, and NEVER run a tab.

Polly, I love your goals and what you're doing and I think you're gonna continue to be great.

Love to see ya throw some originals at 'em and make 'em all think they were hits somewhere already

I mentioned the "getting out of the bar scene" BECAUSE they've clearly been doing this a long time already and probably have a good following.

Get ya a Facebook Page too as well as that MySpace.

Can you do any old semi-obscure Queen?
Do you do any Zep?
Just curious ;-)

Love ya.
Linda

We may be able to pull off a Queen tune...my guitar player is a big fan of Brian May! Yes, we do TON'S of Zep (I am the self-proclaimed female version of Robert Plant...even though he's a female version of himself! LOL)

First, we need to secure a permanent bass player. Everyone else in the band is dedicated. Second, we need to market, market, market, play out anywhere and everywhere, get "known", and go from there. That's the process to getting out of the bar scene and into a bigger scene. We do have some originals and will be recording them soon.

Y'all do "Sweet Home Alabama"?

Seriously, you should work on a version of "Rawhide" just like the Blues Brothers did for "special" gigs like this.

Now THAT would be funny. I wonder how many audience members would get the reference if the band did "Rawhide" and "Stand By Your Man"?

You know what? When we got the call to do this gig, I actually DID say to Dave, "We should learn a few country rock songs just to make them happy." His response was, "Absolutely NOT! We are a ROCK band, not a COUNTRY band! They know it and they booked us. We're going to play what we play!"

Well,
I agree you should do what you do and bill yourself as that. However there are a ton of good uptempo country songs that you could examine to see if you can fit them in once in a while. It doesn't sound like you do any country however. If your audance is happy you will be just fine.

Those gigs are always fun...seriously they are. It's all about your mindset. I was playing with my classic rock band once and we got booked to play at this music festival (the agent didn't look real hard at the other acts apparently) When we got there the place was crawling with ravers and people in gas masks, with the thick make-up and all that. We were in jeans and button-ups, ready for a normal MN bar crowd.

It was a death metal festival and we had an hour and a half of good ol. classic Tom Petty and Jimi Hendrix for 'em. I got up to the mic and said..."I know what you're thinking...these guys don't fit in around here. We have a horrible booking agent. We're not a metal band, but we play some pretty good stuff. Since we have to spend the next hour and a half together we can either have a good time with it or we can be pissy at each other...what do you want to do?"

The whole atmosphere changed...people just laughed it off, gave us some guff for being "too soft" but otherwise enjoyed the set and we stayed to party with them afterwards. We didn't make any money (ran up the bar tab), but we walked away with an experience we never thought we'd have and a good story to boot. It was a good gig.

Polly,

Welcome to delimma world. You guys have to make a decision. If you want to play what YOU want, you have to take that route. There are clubs that do that. But they pay NO money, or only a door charge. If you really believe in what you are doing that is what you do. But what you are going to find there is that those clubs are "original only." So you are going to be out of luck there.

The theory behind those gigs are that you get young alternative bands prferably locals, who are going to bring all their beer drinking buddies in. And since those are ALL in their 19-22 year olds, you are going to probably be knocked out of that market pretty quick.

The next are "tribute bands" which do one artists' music. AC/DC, the Eagles, Pink Floyd, whatever, those are actually very successful. But it is one type of music and mostly their hits.

If you want to be paid, how are you going to do that by NOT doing what the customer and venues want? I have been doing this for 36 years and I have never seen that work. You might have a twist on it but to my knowledge, it hasn't worked in the history of music outside of small intimate groups, usually house bands or something like that.

What you probably could do in your situation is learn about 15 mainstream cover songs, Sweet Home, Rock and Roll by Zepplin, American Pie, the tested and true songs, crowd favorites, and pepper them in every few songs. Then you do your "B" list songs and originals. But I can assure you, that you are going to have to do things they want. If you can make them want what you are selling, you are in business.

But whatever you do, be CAREFUL how you talk about people, particularly on the internet. You can never tell when someone is reading posts like this who might be "lurking" and wanting the job you just had. How would you like it if the club owner gets somebody sending them an email with quotes calling his customers (who pay for him to stay open, pay salaries, drinks,food) that says "their inbred" customers...." You never know where this stuff goes and you never know who is reading things. In the Internet world, ANYTHNG can come back to bite you on the ass.

Politicians, and celebrities have careers ruined over pictures they took 30 years before.

Just remember, you are always in the public eye. And you asked for it. Nobody forced you to do any of this. No one has to listen to you and no one has to pay you one thin dime. You earn it all. How you treat people will result in how you are treated.

MAB

Ray, I agree that some uptempo country tunes couldn't have hurt us. Dave is into "guitar rock" and I guess he views country rock as beneath him somehow. I wouldn't mind doing some. However, it's more important to me to keep Dave happy. He wouldn't ask me to sing something I absolutely hated. We have that mutual respect for eachother and we are musical partners, so just like a marriage...in bands there is compromise.

Cheez, you handled your experience VERY well! I must remember that next time we end up with a gig like this.

Marc, very wise words indeed. While I don't particularly ever want to play that bar again, their sister bar is more of a rock bar, and our band would love to play it. We would go over very well there, even with our obscure stuff. Our obscure stuff is what we played at a benefit at the sister bar, and that's where the lady who books both of the bars saw us and heard our stuff. I agree with you that the entertainment has to give the audience what they want. What our songs lack in familiarity, they make up for in complexity and our execution of the songs. We are very good at what we do. I say that with complete conviction. I've been in music a long time, I've seen hundreds of bands, and I know how we compare. Call us a novelty act if you wish, but there IS a market for us, and we are good enough to pull off what we're trying to do. I just have to market us effectively.

You're right about the internet too. In this case though, I really don't give a rat's ass about that bar. Anyone who wants to play that place has my blessing...I would rather play a "pond draining" HAHAHAHA!

Polly,
I grew up across the state from you. Over in Morgan County. We got electricty in the house about 1950. We got a radio. All the country artists were putting out so much good music and it was on the radio so I really liked all that music. We got a small station out of Athens that played country music all day long during the week. We got WCKY, WWVA out of Wheeling, WJJD out of Chicago and WSM out of Nashville.
I went in the Navy in 1955. I got stationed in Atlantic City. Guess what! No country music on the radio in Atlantic City! It was in the Record Stores but not on the radio.

There I got exposed to all the rock type music that lead to most of what you are playing today. I basically turned my nose up to all of that stuff I was hearing in Atlantic City. But those days are long gone now but there was some pretty good stuff and I have a bit of it now on CD. In the late 60's I began to find out about Classical Music. A friend, now deceased, introduced me to Big Band Orchastra music. So there is lots of good music left to discover.

Hi Polly, I have been quite amazed at some of the differences in attitude of Americans and us Brits, and the live scene over here is completely different to the one Marc is discribing, although the same in some respects.

Bands doing originals very rarely get paid but there are far more pubs and clubs willing to allow you to play and if you are half decent you will get asked back and paid, it might not be much but enough to cover costs. I've listened to your stuff on Soundclick and you and your band would do ok here. You would be able to do at least 2 gigs a week if you were prepared to travel in a 50 mile radius of home.

And doing originals here is considered better than doing covers, covers bands are usually only hired for weddings etc. It is virtually compulsory to do the pub/club circuits to attract agents, A+R men and the music press. You can't get gigs at better places without them.

The audiences in pubs and clubs will give any originals band the chance to impress, and if you don't, the worst that will happen is that they will disappear to drink at the bar and ignore you. Cover bands are not treated so well, you play bad versions of songs they like or play covers that are inappropriate for the venue they will heckle, hassle and throw bottles at you ... we tolerate originals far more.

Puddlegum, my Soundclick page IS NOT my band! That's a page of my originals and demos I did for people. My band page is: www.myspace.com/jdjacksonband If you go there you will hear what I'm talking about. I'm going to re-do the order of my links now.

you guys ought to play Nashville Crossroads some night........

do it just for the experience-as you know Polly its a fun place and I bet they would love you.........like I say-just play there cause it will be a memorable time....playing a honkytonk on Broadway would really be something you guys would remember for years to come.....


Tom

Weeeeeeelll, Polly you could always edit the posts

Thing is it's not just THAT bar that you hated: someone else could be reading (NOT me) and going Gee I'd hate for that chick to talk about MY place that way.

Puddleglum, sounds like the scene hasn't changed too much in the UK since Queen and Zep were discovered playing out in small clubs like that. And if I'm not mistaken, the Stones & the Who too among many others, I'm just not as familiar with their band histories.

Jimi Hendrix had to go get famous in Britain too.

Maybe there's a bassist in England, Polly, how about a hop across the pond?? LOL.

Get those originals recorded, I really want to hear them!!


Linda

My biggest problem the past few years, {and you touched on this Polly and I know that you can relate} is that times have changed, and not for the better for us musician types. Back in "the day" we were treated with respect, and even put on a petistal {sp?] Now we're treated like dog-sh*t by bar owners and patrons alike. Ten years ago bar owners depended on us for their buisness, and the patrons wanted to hear good music. Now the same bar owners act like it's a priveledge for us to play their sh*t holes, and the patrons would rather watch sports on a hundred T.V's , converse amongst themselves, or have sexual relations with their blackberries. To them, we're intruding upon their world. People our age who apprecite what we do are all settled down with families, or are afraid to go out due to the DUI laws. Unfortunately I don't see things getting any better. I wish I had an answer but I don't.Basically we're SCREWED!

Bob,

Like everything you have to put the shoe on the other foot. The Internet age has put everyone into the game. I started playing clubs in the 70's so I remember a lot of this devolution. I can remember club after club suffering through diva bands that drew in people, but were totally jerks to the club. They would show up late, would take too long in the breaks, do drugs or have sex in the back rooms, etc. This was a LOT of people.
And there were some crappy places but who twisted anyone's arm to get into this business.

Then the internet came and suddenly people's attention spans were shorter than ever. The actual abilities of most performers got less and less. Bars had to put up with every idiot who got drunk and into a car wreck sueing the club. There is not a club or resturant in this country that is half way decent that does not have a half dozen lawsuits against them for some kind of drunk behavior.

Taking away smoking for many clubs wrecked an already tough time. Although it worked for me and actually gained people in some areas, it was a tough sell.

Then Karaoke took over in many clubs because of making the audience part of the show. Toss in American Idol on top of that and you have more Karaoke contests, and you start dwindeling down the possible venues. They are there to make money, not make us stars. And there are a LOT more people trying to play. Pretty much any college student is either going to be a performer or have their special friends who are performers. Throw in sports on 200 channels, and you have a meltdown for performers. This is the competition of the market place.

I have always said to everyone here, you are not just competing with other songs or markets like you. You are competing with sports, computer games, internet, games like Rock Star,Guitar Hero, other genres of music (people rarely just listen to one genre any more)

Andy Warhol had it right. Everyone gets 15 minutes of fame. Or about 3 minutes.

Look, it is never fair and never right. I have had a career for a long time because I always look at it as what the people want, not what I want. Fortunately, I have been able to walk that line. I am pretty sure you have too.

When people have this much fighting for their attention spans, the songwriters, artists, musicians, club owners, bar tenders, wait staff, cooks, etc. better realize it and respond to it.

In this business you do that or die.

MAB

You're correct as usual Marc, the problem I'm having is how to maintain in these times, and I'm at a loss. At least you reside in a city where music will always be king.

Bob,

That is true. But the supply so far exceeds the demand you would be surprised that working musicians have to go elsewhere to make money. All those writers nights, clubs, major shows, etc. you make NOTHING. On the ones that you do a cover charge, the money usually goes to the band or whoever plays with you.

In LA and New York, they have the principal of "selling tickets" for any show you do. Don't sell enough tickets and you don't play. And you get nothing from the tickets. And this has been going on for 25 year to my knowledge.

And of course, a major problem is always that even the hit writers often make more money from other businesses than they do from music. I have friends who are hit writers and only use that income to support other businesses where their real income is made.

The differences in here and pretty much everywhere else is that we have seen all this coming for 20 years and have worked toward adapting to that. If you see the train coming, you generally can step off he tracks.

So everyone has their own problems and have to figure out how to rise above it. That is always the challenge.

MAB

Oops sorry Polly, I'm on your band site now and this is ok, a bit less acoustic than yours but perfectly respectable rock music, go down a treat here. all forgiven.

Hi Linda, the scene probably hasn't changed since then and we probably still have the same people running it .... it's a tough nut to crack over here but there are plenty of opportunities and if your even half decent you can make a reasonable amount of money with out ever even getting signed but it is hard work and the glamour of it much exaggerated, then if you get to move up in the world and get signed with managers and stuff it gets to be a whole different kettle of fish ... and unless they have a lot of success they usually end up earning less, working harder, playing bigger clubs to more people and after a couple of years are set free only to be told they owe said manager/record company £1,000s.

So who wants to be a rock n roll star?

Yeah, the business end bites rocks.

Quick name off ten songs by big names screaming about the rotten deals they've had when it comes to business. :-)

Don't know quite what you mean Linda, but stars getting screwed is as long as the music business. Billy Joel, Springsteen, Willie Nelson, most black artists in the 50's. Col Tom Parker, the main screwer.

Polly,

I admire your spunk and strait talk...

almost responded to your bass player thread, having read your band's setlist- I can see why you're having a hard time finding a replacement. trying to get over with obscure older rock songs is a tough task... I'd agree almost across the board with MABs suggestions. I'm the guy in the band that always chose obscure songs, but the rest were always mainstream- so I've managed to keep gigging for over 40 years now- I'll be 60 next year.

David Byrne has a theory that music gets composed for the venue it's played in- be it an orchestra, or hip hop in a car with huge woofers... Bar band songs work best in bars- and are the easiest way to win over listeners. Arena rock songs are hard to put over anyplace besides arenas... not saying it can't be done, but some adjustments have to be made...

I've played some pretty big shows over the years, but I didn't make any money for the big ones- they were always freebies.. a couple 'Relay for Life' cancer benefits, and opening for Hoobastank with our songs- memorable, but freebies. my regular gig is now in a restaurant, tho it's low volume, I still get in some obscure songs of my choice and some originals...

good luck finding a replacement and your gigs..

mike

here's a link to David Bryne's talk...

http://www.ted.com/talks/david_byrne_how_architecture_helped_music_evolve.html

hope someone finds it interesting..

Mike, thanks for your input. I couldn't agree with you more, but it's just like a woman with an ugly baby...everyone is going to see it ugly but HER! To HER, it's the most beautiful baby that ever was born, and she loves it with all of her heart. That's our set list...the baby...and me, the mother with rose-colored glasses. Dave is the proud papa. Mick (our drummer) is the tolerant brother. And the bass player will definitely be the nanny walking in going, "WTF is WRONG with this baby???" Hopefully, the nanny can learn to love the baby as the rest of us, and advertise it to the world as just as worthy as all the prettier, more popular babies!

Polly, here's another one you'll appreciate, although the question answers itself.. "Because too many alchy musicians took advantage" Remember the days when we all got "comped" for our drinks, or at least got discounts? "Those were the days my friend, we thought they'd never end!"

Jeopardy.. {Alex Trevek voice} The answer is.."Because too many drunk-ass musicians took advantage and drank us out of our lease"...
"Why do musicians no longer get free drinks at their gigs?"

Bob,

I have been involved with so many writers shows and clubs over the years that tried to give away drinks to musicians. and they just take it over. People, particularly that have been around a long time remember that and think it still should be that way.

A lot of my friends who are pro writers and their wives constantly complain about going out to do gigs and have to pay. My response is that you decide what you want to do.

For you and Polly I'll tell you about one I am personally going through right now that fits into this. Where I live with my Girlfriend in West Nashville, there is a guy who lives across the street who is a Big time producer. He has produced things like "Sometimes when we touch" for Dan Hill, has produced Johnny Mathis, billy Ray Cyrus, Myley Cyrus, is a publisher on songs with Carrie Underwood, has won awards and done very well.

On many Sunday's, he has this dinner that he caters and invites dozens of musicians to have a big jam in his living room. He has all kinds of state of the art equipment, drums, keyboards, etc.And the people who come are like Phil Collin's keyboard player, Cheap Trick's bass player, Gunner Nelson, various hit writers like Eddie Shwarz, who wrote "Hit me With your Best Shot" etc. This is like a BIG deal to be invited to and is like an all star game of players.

Recently he has started taking it to an actual gig and we are playing the last Sunday of each month at the world famous Hard Rock Cafe' in Nashville, a really plumb gig. There are about 13 of us in the band.

But there are no free drinks, food, parking, etc.It cost me $60 three weeks ago to perform and sing four songs. It is a fun gig but you have to decide is it worth doing that and losing money. My jury is still out on it. Feels too much like a "GIG" where as the fun of the party is that it is relaxed and we don't have to worry about things like rehearsal or anything else. Just have fun and play.

Most all gigs are like that. You have to decide what it is worth to you. From what it sounds like from Polly here, she has a decent thing going, just played a club that wasn't where she wanted to be. That happens. But in all gigs, it is pretty much laid out in advance as to what they pay, what the rules are, what the paramaters are.

Polly, if you want to do the obscure things, I think that is fine. My suggestion would simply be prepared for anything that comes along.If you think about it, doing a few well known songs here and there that you guys actually like, coupled with the things you are regularly doing, seems to be like not that big a deal of a compromise. Just depends on how you guys want to conduct your band.

Good luck,

MAB

Dang Marc,
Ask that "Big Time Producer" if he needs some new songs to check out. I'd love to send him some.

I told my sometime Publisher I thought the music business would be better this season. What do you think? Are things getting better? You must get wind of what's happening. Give us the scoop. Don't tell me again about all the illegal stuff. Just the postive stuff. Thanks. My Publisher is out of town at present but will be back in about a month.

Ray,

One of the reasons I am friends with this guy is that we don't cross the line over songs. He has his own stuff he is working on. He doesn't need anything from outside. I have over 2000 songs that I am trying to get out there as well.

The music business is always the same. There are people who do this well, and those who are fighting for crumbs. Depending on who you talk to it is the best of times or the worst of times.

For anyone who is going the "old method" of writing songs, getting demos, and then depending on publishers or song pluggers to get cuts, it is the worst of times. Business has just changed and it is not going back. While we still will be utilizing some of the same methods, you still pitch, you still do demos, but that old way of "take mine over yours" is pretty much done.

For the new people who are not accustomed to that and have the ability to do many things on their own, it is the best of times. Through the Internet there are millions of avenues and a huge market out there. Finding it is tough but there are people who are doing this rather well.

From writer's points of view, there are millions of artists out there. The ability to find people even in your own neighborhoods who are attempting to make a run at success and the industry are pretty good. And to have them out there performing your music, and making a little bit here and there is very doable.

I think it is about changing your perceptions of what the music business is. The music business is very reflective of life in general.

Years ago, how many people were doing home based businesses? Not very many, outside the stuffing envelopes or some part time work. Now more and more businesses are home owned, about one in 8 have some form of home business. The computers and Internet have put everyone into every game.

In places like Nashville, LA, and New York, that means home studios owned by some really great musicians. We are cutting demos that sound like records now for not much more than $600. Five years ago those same demos would be $1200. And the demo becomes the product. That can equate into some nice sales if the artist is active and doing a lot of live gigs.

I write songs with a lot of artists. One was here this week. He is from Michigan (because of my relationship with Frankie Ballard, I seem to have hit a ton of things in Michigan.) He was here recording three master demos on songs we had written a couple of months before. One of the ways he is doing this is that he is tied into Indian Casinos where he is from. The are actually paying for it.The reason is that one of the songs we wrote "One Chip at a Time" (which is about the Indians buying back their land "One Chip at a Time") makes the tribes look good and they are very interested in him playing their casinos.

Another song, "Michigan Country" which is about how cool life is in Michigan. Another one of his contacts is involved in the Michigan Tourism business and wants to use the song as a commercial video for the state. It is written like a travelogue and has scenes in it that play up the state and it's beauty and people.

Another one, "Loving You is All that I Do Right"is a very sexy man loving his woman song and is VERY pitchable. The last "School of P.A.R.T.Y." is designed for just the type of audiences Polly is talking about, the rowdy "In your face" country audiences that want to drink and yell.

Now out of this, the artist, Robby James,will have material to put on his web site, will work for his CD, will get some milage out of on festivals, will work with merchandising,etc. And he will tell more people about me, songs will be heard on local and regional radio and television and hopefully it will make us all look good.

The point is that we have to look at a lot of different angles when we are involved in whatever we are involved in. That is what I mean by the "old methods" that are out there that don't work as well anymore. WE have to look in different directions and figure out how to make things work for us.

In my opinion the future of music will be tied to artists and writers who create a "niche" for themselves. They will find people in their own areas and build that into higher profile elements. This is what the writing community in Nashville has always been about. It consists of writers who hook into an artist very early and help in the overall guidance of that career. Whether it is Pat Alger and Tony Arata at the beginning of Garth's career, Don Schlitz and Paul Overstreet in Randy Travis' career, The Music Mafia doing their own thing, creating their own staff writers and artists that would become Gretchen Wilson, Big and Rich and James Otto. People likke Sugarland and Zac Brown building their fan base in Atlanta, before they get attention in Nashville, or my artists Frankie Ballard and Steel Magnolia, building fan base and contacts before they got their deals or won television shows.

It is all a Do It Yourself world Ray. But when it comes to music, it really always has been.

That would be my take. The positives are that we can create and promote our music and ourselves in a variety of ways. The downside is that the money that once was in music has dissapated a lot. You can look at the glass half empty or half full.

My suggestion to you would be to look for artists who are unsigned, befriend them and make what you do a part of what they do. Once someone gets signed you have almost no shot at what they are doing. They move into different circles.

That is what anyone I know who does this does.

MAB