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Polly, The fact that "Hallelujah" did nothing for you proves the point Marc and others have been making. That song has touched millions, just by the Youtube viewing numbers alone.

(Alexandra Burke: 9 million; Buckley: 15 million; Cohen 7 million; Voegele: 9 million, The OC: 7 million, Rufus Wainwright: 8 millions, K.D. Lang: 4 million. Just for starters)

So far "Side by Side" has touched one: You.

It's beginning to look like you wouldn't know a hit song if it walked up, shook your hand and introduced herself.

Geeze, I hate to miss out on discussing Angry Chick Songs, since I got High Hopes for Michele Bolton & My "I'm Over It/I'm Over You", penned primarily for the Aussi Market...by Mz M and a 64-yr-old Male..Moi..& Musicated by Rodney, her (I'm guessin' he's Over-50) Male Producer.

It's got that "Perky Survivor" in it...plus some humor & a sense of Fun..WHICH I enjoyed in the Dixies' "Earl" Song.

I'll confess I KNEW there WAS "Something Different" to Alanis M's "You Oughta Know"..BUT I found her Easy-to-Tune-OUT in the Message Dep't via all the Kvetching. AND the Strained Vox, time-to-time again. (Tho I'll admit to being Awestruck during my First Complete Reading EVER thanks to the Lyrics being posted here.) There's just Something in that Shrillness that makes the Male in me click the "Off" Switch..& listen to perhaps The Music rather than hang on every word, when-performed.

I'm fond of Glynda & Heather's Song (& Polly)...& DO like the Survivor-Portrayed/The Tune/The Angle/The Hook. Ya know what I find the Most-Memorable Couplet in there? The one about "Finding Four Reasons" to stay. It hit me as Unique/Special..AND..I think it's both gonna Attract Men TO this Song AND change some of the "Typical Male Behavior" Patterns Out There....IF this does become a hit.

Of course, maybe I'm not the Typical Male Listener to begin-with...I totally LOVED Carrie Underwood's "Before He Cheats"...
(But maybe because at one time in my life I was kinda-guilty and this was a subconscious Penance Party...I dunno...)

Perhaps it was because The Protagonist in BHC took it out on The Offender's Car...rather than on His Conscience? Yeah, I'll bet that's it! ;-)>

More Power To ALL Ya Gals..& Good Luck Mzs G & H with A Winner in my book.

Best Wishes, Big Hugs,
Stan

I always thought "Hit The Road Jack" said it pretty well, too. And "Respect".

Re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-respect!

I'm 59 and I feel my songs have emotion and love and alot of stuff, I try to put myself in the persons place that i'm writing about and all these feelings come from me...so yes, us over 40 can write feelings and emotions into our songs, or that's how I feel anyway..love you all and I'm having the time of my life doing my songs and I want to write at least one with everyone, so please if you see one of my lyrics and you'd like to do a co write with me, then hey, lets do it....love the ole' counry lady, glyn

I love you all so much...i'm so happy I came here and had this chance to meet you all.....glyn

And Stan thanks for your comments, made me smile...if this one or any of my songs do anything, everyone involved will see the benifits, but if not, then hey, i'm out to write songs and make friends..yeah I'd love to have one do something, but if not..that's ok too...i'm mostly doing these so my children will have something to look back on and listen and know my mom, my grandma, my great grandma did this...my parents died when I was very young and I have nothing to remember them by..so this is my way of giving to my children when they feel , like, man, wish I could hear her voice one more time...well at least i've giving them my gift while i'm still here..so thanks to all of you, i've learned here...so much...and i'm so grateful to Brian for giving all of us this forum...this is the best forum i've seen or have heard of....you did great Brian and I wish I could tell you in person some day..what you've given all of us.....glyn

Like I always say, I know if it's good even if I hated it.

On the Alanis song, I don't care if a song not only destroys men but use my name in the title and the lyrics, and after that it insults my family.
I find the person, and say "I don't care what you say about me,
but my family" Oh by the way GREAT GREAT SONG!! just wanted you to know that before I END you" lol

Yes Alansis's range and shrills can get to you especially as we get older but that same effect is a big part of how it grabbed the attention it did.
There are good songs, there are hit songs, and there are good hit songs, and weak hit songs..

"You Oughta Know" is a good hit song.

Why?
1. It's starts with a catchy beat, groove, feel

2. Her quiet calm voice starts talking directly to you. It's like your being addressed personally. It's intriguing.

3. Flea's fantastic bass line is catchier all by itself then most people's ENTIRE song catalog. It's a major HOOK.
NOte:Music is a major hook in music!

4. The lyrics are not only an angst chick song, they are UNIQUE,
very clever and use words and lines in combination's that I have NEVER heard before. Internal rhyming GREAT rhythm and flow.
Note: Rhythm is a huge part of music, and it comes from more than just drums

"Did you forget about me MR duplicity did I bug you in the middle of dinner"

A tad bit better than...
"How could you do this to me, you two timer, I'm gonna call your house" lol

5. The vocal arrangement, the calm build up of talking, trying to be nice or decent but saying it like a scary psycho girl. Which is very very effective. Then the contrast of the sustaining power chords against the great vocal rhythm of the pre-chorus melody.
Then a chorus that stands up all by itself hooks all over the place.. triple rhythm line at the end on the title.

These are some reasons I can add more....

Any songwriter, musician or producer or label or publisher would spot these things or at least should!
If you don't maybe you are one but are not a professional. Fans can feel it, but sometimes can't explain or completely understand it. And that's totally cool & fine, there fans that's what there supposed to do. Writers/Musicians please.. they should learn the differences.

For me I'm a pro, I don't have to be boxer to know when a song or anything musical is kicking my ass all over the place,

"Subjectivity has ZERO to do with that"

Dan, "Step to the Side" hasn't been INTRODUCED INTO THE MARKET YET! It hasn't even been professionally demoed. Do you think your Cohen dude's song sounded like that when he first bled it out? Seriously? We're dealing with a bare bones recording here, and a lyric. The production will make all the difference.

Mike, you're right about KNOWING whether or not a song kicks your ass. "Take Me to the Backseat" by The Donnas kicks my ass..."Tattooed Love Boys" by The Pretenders kicks my ass..."Black Dog" by Led Zeppelin kicks my ass. Hopefully, I can deliver a performance with "Step to the Side" that kicks some ass! Wish me luck!

p.s. The boys like me because I have a pretty face and boobies...they couldn't care less if I'm fiesty! LOL

Stan, I liked that "four good reasons" line too...VERY UNIQUE!

Polly: Just remember that knocking down other songs (Hallelujah) doesn't make "Step to the Side" any better. If you are not doing a full production on glyn's song, I'll try and fit something in too.

Kevin

ASS is a VERY important quality in a song! Polly, by now your ass must have a deeper shade of red than the Red Sea, from all of those kick ass songs!

You know, that is a very good point. It is great to have a love for a song, we all have that. It is great to have a never say die attitude on songs and they need it. But to down other songs and demean them to people who do like them, (particurlarly if they are successful songs) is not the best policy. As a matter of fact it makes the song you like even less attractive.

Also it is never a good idea to ridicule other people's opinions on material.People have different tastes, different styles, different feel for subject matter. Not everything hits everyone the same. On a fairly regular basis here, people routinely make negative comments on certain songs and artists on the radio and many of those are friends of mine. But that is their opinions and that is fine.

Everyone has the right to their own opinion as well.

MAB

I agree with some of what you have said, and I'm the guy who knows all about social faux pas and violating unwritten rules, if someone asks for criticism then they have to expect it, just because advice is given doesn't mean you have to take it.

I do agree that if you don't particularly like a song there is no need to say anything, on that score, there are a lot of really good songwriters on here and just because I don't like a song doesn't mean that it is bad, appriciation of music is very subjective and quite right so.

This is really a very good forum for people to discuss anything musical and even if you dare to be different or hold an opinion that most disagree with they do not ban you or abuse you but will argue with you reasonably, it is not a crime to have an opinion.

I'm sure you will enjoy it here ...

Kevin, you are correct sir. Knocking another song DOES NOT make the one I like more attractive. Didn't mean to do that, was doing a comparitive thing that WENT BAD!

Marc, you ARE the voice of REASON and EXPERIENCE. I appreciate that you let me to through my "hysterical moments" and then come back and post more sane and educational thoughts. You're right, I have a passion for the song, which may or may not be successful in the end, but it NEEDS ME and I NEED IT, so away we go, I don't expect anyone else to understand, and iffin it gets a draw, then good for Glyn!

Puddlegum, you had me until "I'm sure you'll enjoy it here". I've enjoyed it here for 2 years now, and this is FAMILY to me! This is indeed a GREAT forum to discuss differing opinions! I love EVERYBODY that I countered, including Marc Barnette, who I hold in a very high regard, but IT IS COOL that I can argue a case with him here and either I win or he educates me! He's one of the biggest guys in Nashville, DONATING his time here when he clearly doesn't have to. Anyway, I'm appreciative of his participation and everyone else's as well. Brian Austin Whitney INTENDED for this to be a supportive family, and IT IS!

Dan,

This is a long post with many diversions. Was your post meant as a reply to me? The Cohen song wasn't an angry young woman's emotional response to a breakup so I don't understand the relevence of your comment? People can write universally appealing songs, but I doubt a guy over 40 can write a better female angst song than Alanis did in her song. But I'd love for Bill to prove me wrong. My real point in I guess is to write what you know, not what you theorize and you are far more likely to stike a chord with the intended audience. But there are zillions of exceptions to that rule, but it still remains good advice. Write what you know.. insert real rather than imagined passion and I bet the resulting songs will connect more often than not.

Brian

Brian, Diversions? You're telling me! I can't remember for sure but I guess my comment (Passion? Emotion? Great songwriting? Leonard Cohen was around 50 when he wrote this. Jeff Buckley was around 27 when he recorded it) probably was a reply to your statement that a guy over 40 couldn't write with passion and emotion that would move younger people.

I still think he can. I think the ability to write a song that moves people, to touch them with passion and emotion, has nothing to do with the age of the composer. I think it has everything to do with his skill as a writer and passion for the subject as well as the passion and delivery of the performer.

But I could be wrong and you could be right. I'll always allow for that.

Now I agree completely about writing what you know. That is an essential component of any good writing. In some ways that favors the older writer, since he's probably seen more of life than the younger writer.

I also agree you can't fake passion or fool the audience. And you should never try. I should never try to write a song like Alanis Morissette's angry chick revenge song because its style and point of view, for whatever reason, doesn't interest me at all. To write a song for her target audience just because it exists is ridiculous. Again, I agree with you: write what you know and what you feel a passion about.

So I see little that we disagree about.

Except that Morissette song. It just didn't move me. But millions were moved and disagree with me. Only shows I wouldn't always know a hit song if came up to me on the street, shook my hand and introduced herself.

But I knew Coldplay's Viva la Vida was a hit the first time I heard it!

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=9500771

Dan here's another diversion for you -- a LIVE performance (sorry about the talkers...)

of Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah -- by my friend...... Jason Cann -- part of why I love this song more now--- maybe Polly will like this version....

jm

Joice, Listening now. Your friend Jason is owning this song. Another great performance of this classic. What a beautiful performance. Bravo!

Nice, moving performance by Jason, JM!

You say he was 50 when he wrote the song, BUT.. it's not an angry young female rant.. it's written from his perspective at that moment of HIS life... so anyone arguing that someone over 40 can move someone is correct, but it's not likely going to be whilst pretending to be someone else with different feelings and concerns and lives that the writer. Can it be done? I am sure when Jason Blume co-wrote with Britney Spears her song "Dear Diary" he was using her genuine feelings and perspectives rather than his own. (I'll ask him next time I communicate with him... it might be an interesting real life example of what we're talking about. But I feel reasonbly sure that Bill Robinson, without the influence of a young female co-writer is going to write a better female angst song than a talented female writer who had been through it (or was still going through it at the time). That doesn't make Bill a bad writer. I know Bill has had far deeper topics to write about that none of us could imagine where he'd far ourwrite someone else who hadn't walked his walk. Could a serious pro get away with faking it? Probably... lots of pop tart songs are written by older pro's, but often they are about more universal targets and not as visceral as the Alanis stuff.

As I have said to one and all, I'd love for you to prove me wrong and find success faking it. But I'd also like most of you to write what you know in a way that only you can write it using some reasonable criteria to make it commercially viable. Seems rational to me.

Brian

Great points Brian

I don't feel that a writer has to "be it" live it" or anything.
Sure it helps, but then who would write Sci Fi? Nobody has ever met an alien yet they sure can write about them..

lol But even with songs, you don't have to live it or be it, you do have to "Feel It" for one thing. That means letting it in deeply, or at least deep enough. Then follows "knowing" simply knowing alot of material and alot about what goes into it.
Then there's the craft, straight up! Your a writer you must use your imagination and skill. A man wrote "Like A Virgin" and a man & woman co-wrote "Material Girl" just flat out clever writers.

I write songs in a wide array of styles, mainly ones that I have a feel for,which again is many. As a producer I'm experienced enough to know what to do with them.
When I sent 4 songs to a movie director taking submissions, he called and asked, are you the manager or agent for those bands you submitted? "I want to use all four of them in my movie"
I said, "Oh no, there are no bands, that's all me with different friends" he was happy to hear that..

With music you are going to have to let ALOT in to put alot out. I know Bill and he hasn't let alot in, he says it himself and he's only been to one concert ever okay granted it was "Elvis" very cool.. but! I've seen EVERYBODY!

With anyone really who hasn't heard and got into so so so many things, it's really hard to just start doing it yourself.
Then there's years of being in cover bands and a broad album collection, and all the rest.

I have friends who can only write and play there age, I luckily do not have that situation, I call it a problem.
Even when I talk with them it starts with how much they hate everything that they didn't grow up on, and how they are locked into one style of music, listening,playing,seeing and FEELING! I can sense that the second they start... I also scratch my head and think "Why would you shut the faucet off musically and not let it in" When you love music you basically love ALL music to some degree.

All The Best
Mike

I posted the Alanis lyrics and I was shocked at how many didn't know it, or get how effective and skillful it really is.
That is no obscure album it's a HUGE one..

Part of the key to co-writing, especially with artists are using their experienced layered with your own life experiences. In the past 6 1/2 years I have written 2015 songs with about 1700 people worldwide.

Since I am in a "Teaching mode" my job is to show them how to develop their own experiences into song form, structure, character development,twist on the tail without letting "Facts get in the way of a good story."

They have to feel a part of the song which is why you can write it around them. But you also have to help them get out of their own way, and you have to have some understanding of much of what is out there. You have to see the average or mediocrity in order to find the pathways around it.

I have written hundreds of songs with "Angry women." Actually they are not that angry, just feel like that is what they have to do to express themselves.But what makes it different is showing them the "rope of hope" "woman empowerment" and elements of story that allow them to accentuate their positives instead of just being mired in bitterness.

Then you have to take phrases, rhymes, contrived senarios, and try to avoid them. Everyone has been upset when they are alone at two in the morning crying over that lost loved one. What about in the middle of traffic, in the office, where everyone around them is partying? (Tears of a Clown)

There's not much that hasn't been written, but starting in a place that is the MOST commmon is going to create problems going in.

Since everyone has similar experiences, it is about finding the things that separate them and make them interesting as well as the common elements which bring people together.

That is the constant quest.

So while there is a certain element of "having to live it" that is important,there are also ways around that. By using the experiences of others, writing with other people with different expereinces than your own, and being able to take that step outside yourself while maintaining a close grasp of the subject matter, you can develop some really great stuff.

A method actor does not have to have killed someone to be able to portray a serial killer. But most do research into those characters. That is the craft.

In writing we are doing the same. Acting out a part. You can get too close or be too distant. The key is finding the balance.

MAB

Most actors who portray serial killers over play them. They are generally non-descript everyday types you'd rarely pay attention to rather than the menacing types in TV and Movies. It's how they get away with it so long (and why most never get caught.. the number of unsolved murders in the USA is staggering).

As for Sci-Fi, that's a great point... for my argument. What we HAVE learned about Mars is that it's a fairly benign planet which might have had life millions of years ago, but which certainly doesn't have little green men. So an actor playing one has an easy job... they can act like anything and be correct since there's nothing to compare it too. Not true of female angst music. Phonies are exposed quickly.

I had already said that co-writing with someone experienced in those things is certainly a good approach to write about topics you have no experience with. Seasoned writers can latch onto just about any life experience and fashion it into a strong song with the help of someone who lived it. Sometimes research can work, but in my opinion in a passion explosion like You Outta Know I think research would be less effective unless you were really in tune with it. One of the big appeals was how far it pushed the reality boundaries on mainstream radio even though some beeps were heard depending on the market. It seems far less that passion could have been faked without anyone involved ever having been in her shoes. Those with that much talent (and there are certainly some who could do it) are already getting cuts. Authors and screenwriters face the same challenges and it's why their communities have the same issues this one does. Most screenwriters don't write diverse characters all that well. They have the benefit of having both actresses and directors and other staff to help bring the reality to life fortunately. Music has an overload of the real thing clogging up the market. But what the market does not have is something only you can bring from your own life. If you have the talent to write your own experiences in a commercially desirable way, you'll find a market. But that's been a fundamental point here since day 1.

Brian

Mark,

I think "Respect" was actually a male sung song first.

Brian

Yep, and written by a male too, same with "Hit the Road, Jack"...I was being sly. But I tend to agree with you that although it's possible to write outside of your experiences and still write a classic, the vast majority of great songs tend to be written straight from the heart. We can argue either way, but it's a lot rarer for any outsider to express the raw truth of an insider.

I'm not sure I understand the attitude that if I don't know a particular song it makes me less of a writer or less informed about music.
Personally I don't listen to Pop or Rock or whatever it happens to be called in a particular decade.
The Alanis song is a typical example. More than likely I have heard the song but didn't really listen because that genre of music holds no appeal to me. I don't listen to it because I don't like it. Why would I listen?
I don't want to write it either.
I like oldies rock and roll and Country. That's what I listen to.
And of course, New Country, changes all the time
I like the "New" Country too. I am trying to learn how to write "New" Country. The words as well as the music.
So far I haven't done too well with it but I am working on it.

The fact that I have only been to one mega concert doesn't make me less of a music lover either. It means I don't like crowds. I can't stand people crushed up against me, the noise, the waiting in line for hours, the traffic. None of it appeals to me. The concert isn't worth the pain.
I don't go to Forth of July Fireworks show either, The pain of getting in and out ain't worth it.
I was a big Football fan too. I went to ONE Professional football game in my life. The Bears at Soldiers field (1983). I've been to 2 Baseball games Tiger Stadium (1951, lightning almost killed me) and Wrigley Field (1991). None of them were worth the pain getting to them.
The only mega event I ever felt worth the pain was seeing Evel Kneivel. Twice.
I guess Elvis was worth it but I was sorely disappointed he disrespected the fans in less than good seats. I never would have went a second time.

As for music. I listen to it constantly. In the car, working in the garage on my vette, I watch Videos all the time. I even put a radio on my Motorcycle. But I never watch MTV. I can't stand Rap, Hip Hop, and Vulgar displays in language and persons to sell a song. If it can't sell without it it isn't worth watching.
I asked my wife about the Alanis song. At first she had no idea what song I was talking about until I said the line "Do you think of me when you F### her. Then she knew exactly what song I was talking about. That's my point. The F word is the only thing she remembered.
I watch videos on CMT and GAC. That's it.
I liked most of Michael Jackson's early stuff. Even some of the recent stuff. Thriller was amazing. But I don't and won't ever buy one of his albums. I don't like it enough to spend money on it.

As for the Alanis song. It was very well done and I can see why it was a mega hit but that I don't care for it or the lyric doesn't make me less a person and I resent that implication.
I don't particularly care for Paul McCartney either.
But that's mostly because of his politics.

There's a lot of songs that give me chills when I hear them. Traveling Soldier by the Dixie Chicks comes to mind and if I had to compare it to "You Oughta Know" By Alanis I'd give the nod to Natalie Maines every time as the song that moves me the most.
Despite her politics.
And I really like her new hair

Marc, I completely understand your point about a song needing to be unique and different to make it viable in this competitive market, and of COURSE it's difficult, because to some degree, all ideas have been written in song somewhere before. However, sometimes a song doesn't have to be SUPER clever to still be viable. Here's a good example (I think Bill will like this too. ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHfSuBglk8E&feature=av2e Not knocking these girls at all, love them, love the song, but Jessica Harp is pretty much emotionless in the vid, no deep plot, no complicated or overly unique lyric, the song just WORKS as is. It's no where near as passionate as Allanis's song, but then again, audiences like Bill who don't care for vulgarity are going to relate to this one better. They both pretty much contain the same subject matter. I would agree that Allanis got more radio play and a bigger audience, but that may be because she also had more hits than The Wreckers did, unfortunately.

I have always sided with those who write from reality. Writing from a "phony" standpoint just to try to make money is like Jim Baker and Tammy Faye doing their "religious" show to get money, when neither of them was any more dedicated to The Lord than my cat! I can see what Mike is saying about some people being talented enough to write somewhat out of their realm because they have the imagination and "feel" for it, but you can always tell someone who's faking from someone who really lived it, hence, Allanis's song up against some guy writing about "shaking booty" as if from a female, POV, there's no comparison. Allis wins hands down. She's admitted that "You Oughta Know" was a real situation, and she relives it every time she sings the song.

My friend Will Rankin once said about music, "You don't have to be GREAT, you just have to be great at what YOU DO."

Polly,

I really don't know what else to say about this. You obviously have passion for the song, I say you do whatever you can to get it out there. If nothing else if you were to do a You Tube video, get out and sell some CD's, you are doing what you believe in and I am all for that.

My comments on the song are simply from a different perspective from yours. I have heard it. A lot, almost down to the exact same lines.I know that is hard for you to believe but it really is. As I have said I would love to have you come to Nashville and I could show it to you in about 15 minutes.

It is nothing against you, or Glynda. It happens all the time and until you get around this stuff all the time you just don't see it.

But this has nothing to do with me. It is what you feel in your heart and frankly bank account that is right.

Your question to me at the very beginning of this, about a year ago, was did I think it was commercially viable. I don't. And even if you were to get a lot of attention on the song I would still feel the same way.

So I will say the same thing to you my buddy Jeffery Steel said to one of the Members of the Cincinatti NSAI group up there. Jeff was doing a workshop and actually asked me for advice on this one girl. She had a song that she loved and played every time any of us went up there for workshops or shows. it hit all of us the same way, (Myself, Danny Wells, Jeff) we all said the same thing independently of each other. But she loved this song and just knew it was a HIT.

She was trying to play it again for a private meeting with Jeffery. He said "Look I just don't hear it in this song. I just don't. You love it, you sing it well,great. But you have played this song five times for me already and I have told you the same thing every time. Playing it for me a sixth time is not going to change my mind."

That is the industry. You are going to have to go with your gut and your desires. I always will help you anytime you ask me and will always tell you the truth as best I can.

But you are not going to get me to care that much for this particular song. I just don't see it the way you do.

On a note of my own, I recieved three separate e-mails yesterday from other people doing my own songs. Two were from the assistant of a woman singer who had just recorded two songs of mine that I had written 6 years ago. They are okay, but quite frankly not some of my better songs. She sounded great but I didn't know who she was or where she got them. It turns out that a very good friend of mine is the producer and did a great job on them, but I still didn't know the singer so the assistant directed me to her web site. She's very attractive, very...uh..uh, shall we say "BUSTY?" and also about 55 years old.

So that is fine, I am very happy she did the songs, but she has about the same shot at a record deal as I do getting a gig as a male stripper. not very damn likely!

But she has a great sounding CD and does my songs well.

The other was a new video done by a singer I work with. Again, the song sounds great, the video is VERY cool and on You Tube getting hits. He is about 10,000 hits with it's first weekend. Very cool and I am glad. But the reality is that the video looks like about ten thousand other "Let's get our friends in the back yard and drink beer while some hot chicks with cowboy boots and Daisy Mae short shorts parade around."

Hey, great but not exactly the most original. But a cut's a cut.

The point I am trying to make is that you write them up and get them out there. You hope people catch on to them and they end up in places you never thought of. I hope they both do great.I am very pleased with them, frankly wish they had both done some different songs, but they put their money where their mouths are and did fine. Everyone has to go with their gut.

That is what you have to do Polly. I am always on your side.

MAB

Hi Bill

Since I mentioned you after Brian's post that mentioned you, mine as well talk to me. Did not mean to offend you.

I wanted to only take bits of your quotes but there were so many that were EXACTLY the point I was making I had to leave it all.
Okay I'm bad because I think too much and get off focus when I'm writing or talking but I'll try to stay as on point as direct as I can. That's why I often number things in my posts lol it helps keep me on track.

So please don't take the following as insults as hard as that may be, I'm only bothering taking a chance telling you because I like you. If your even dreaming about doing something with your music or forget that but even challenging yourself to do some things I have heard you saying you were trying to do then you should be aware of what I mean.

1. How much music your into or you've seen in your life is completely irrelevant, you are correct..
Unless your life is music, which yours is not (that is clear from everything you've said) so that pretty much answers everything. No need to say more, but will anyway.

2. You are less informed about music. Could limit you as a writer depending on what your trying to do. You said you wanted to do Modern Country, well well well guess what 90% of Modern Country is OLD Rock & Pop. And not the Golden Oldies of Rock n Roll. So you've got off the track along time ago.

Do you know the recent number one country song "I Need You Now" by Lady Antebellum? Did you know that there beat, groove,feel, chord changes and bass line are the same as the hit song "Eye In The Sky" by Alan Parsons 1982? I did on the first listen, it's in my world, this is what I know.
Now who do you think has a better chance of coming up with a hit or a new song with a VAST array of past hit's elements in them? That's how music/business works. But if that kind of work or goal does not interest you, than feel free to ignore my perfect point.

Here's your quote
I like the "New" Country too. I am trying to learn how to write "New" Country. The words as well as the music.
So far I haven't done too well with it but I am working on it.

I know why you haven't done well so far with it, now you know why also.

3. Another quote:
The fact that I have only been to one mega concert doesn't make me less of a music lover either.

It doesn't? I don't get the logic behind that at all...
May as well say " I skied once in my life but it don't make me less a ski lover" I watch it all the time on TV"
Now I can't even be in a restaurant never mind a concert, but that's these past years, NOT most of my life, all I did was go to shows.
Well it was worth the pain of me sleeping outside all night in NYC on the sidewalk to get tickets to see Pink Floyd perform The Wall.
See you think you love music until you get near a real music lover.
I'd go to shows two sometimes three a week. That's what lovers of music do...They have to. All the other nights it's PRACTICING Gigging & recording... One night it was up to The Blue Note to see Joe Pass or Jaco Pastorious next week, it's Jethro Tull or Queen. Or EWF at Radio City on & on & on.

Every bit of it seeps through everything I do sometime or another, actually constantly.
I would go to see Genesis and hear,see & feel Phil Collin's great groove, then it comes out somewhere in my music. And that's just one guy on drums and singing. It's also called "Inspiration" And the more you get the better.

4. Quote:
As for the Alanis song. It was very well done and I can see why it was a mega hit but that I don't care for it or the lyric doesn't make me less a person and I resent that implication.
I don't particularly care for Paul McCartney either.


On Paul - Well that shouldn't put to big a hole in anybody's popular music game for the last 50 years Let me shut that wealth of musical resource off... for ANY reason.

***** Nobody said you were less of a PERSON at all. So forget that.
Everything you said above, makes everything I said make a 100% sense. What's so wild is that you can't see that when it's so clear. I hope now you can a little

Peace
Mike

Bill, you have lots of good points in there. Your integrity and outlook on the world must certainly be an asset for you as a songwriter.

I think you are wrong about one thing, though. Your listening habits DOES affect your output as a songwriter. You put way too much trust in the habits of your mind. This puts you way too much in a comfort zone as a writer. You need to challenge that egocentric behaviour, by open minded listening. Not all the time, but at least an hour or two, frequently. You need to listen to stuff you don't like off the rack, but are vastly popular, and listen closely to whats going on in those songs. Break'em down in chunks, like melody dynamics, the rhythm of the melody ect. And don't get too much hung up with what they are about.

Early rock'n roll is actually very educational to song form. I think Elvis' 50'ies stuff is idiomatic in many ways. Back then Ellie had great jazzers 'helping' Scotty, and of course Chet! They could make a lot of fun with just raw energy, and much of that stuff was sold by the pelvis.

Today's lyrics has to be more oriented towards clever twists of mundane lives, circumstances and events, so it's lots more 'brainy', at least in the writing. It's not that immediate anymore, and certainly not for the writer. Most artists can play a certain body part off live. That's where the 50'ies energy still lives, and well, but not in the raw material.

I agree Mike. On that note I will be looking forward to your next number one. And I'll quit trying since it obvious I don't have a chance.
I did have to go back and listen to Eye in the Sky and yes I recognized the similarities. I remember the song but had to go listen to compare them.

Thanks I'd be happy to get a number# anything.
Brian offers a good point in doing what you know,focusing on what you know best. I think that's great advice and makes alot of sense.

Struggling or doting on doing something that is totally not you
doesn't make a lot of sense.

Mike
Then I should just forget this whole songwriting Idea since it doesn't consume my entire life? Because I don't know every song written in every genre of music I should quit?
I did have to go back and listen to Eye in the Sky and yes I recognized the similarities. I remember the song but had to go listen to compare them.


It reminds me of an interview I heard recently. I think it was Dolly Parton. The interviewer asked her who she was most influenced by and what music did she listen to.
Her reply was Nobody, I really don't listen to other peoples music. I'm too busy working on my own.

Nope you should do whatever makes you happy, I don't know every popular song that ever was so I can say I know ever popular song that ever was, I know every song because I LOVE music especially popular music.

Just last week or so my brother in law was in town and over for a visit. He was talking about pop culture and music and said "well ya know there's a big generation gap between the 40's and the 70's even more so then the 70's to now it seems"
I mean who listens to Benny Goodman and Led Zeppelin"?

My wife looked over and said "ah Mike does, yep that lunatic over there:)" He said "no really? So not only do I show em the CD's but then the DVD"s and movies...

What Dolly said EVERYONE says.. that's an old line and yes I spend all my time on my music as well. But EVERYONE listened to someone, that's just a fact.

On this "forget the whole songwriting idea" you keep mentioning it like you been wanting to quit and looking for an excuse.

It doesn't consume your entire life, well thank heavens for that.
It can be a very very lonely and depressing road...
Do whatever makes you happy, live! But know this, it does consume the lives of your competition if your planning on facing off with them someday.

Forget Sci Fi writers for now.

As for being "real" with songs, it is a great plus and a great story if the song actually was all true and came directly from
the writers real life experience, but just like Sci Fi or made up mob stories like the great "GodFather" I & II

We fabricate off of real life things.. or pure imagination.

Here's a beauty - "Cats In The Craddle" just had to be Harry completely talking about his son right? he had to write those lyrics.. Nope his wife did...

"Cat's in the Cradle", based upon a poem by his wife; Sandra Chapin had written the poem inspired by her first husband's relationship with his father and a country song she heard on the radio.[2] When Harry's son Josh was born, he got the idea to put music to the words and recorded the result. "Cat's in the Cradle" was Chapin's only number one hit, shooting album sales skyward and making him a millionaire.

Also musically- Tommy Dorsey was a great player and jazz musician
he wasn't from New Orleans, he wasn't African American he didn't live the pure man blues life.. He "FELT" the music so did Glen Miller, Eric Clapton on on & on...

What really counts most is how much you feel the music. If it reaches into your heart & soul.

Goodnight!

Mike
I think anyone can appreciate your dedication to music and all you have done here to help new artists and songwriters.

Whether you think I am wasting my time or not should be, I suppose, irrelevant to me. But your opinion does count.

For now I will rely on the response I get from the folks that listen to my songs and the response I get.
Like several under 10's chart positions on Soundclick and the number 1 and number 2 position in the Subgenre they got on soundclick.
That's without promotion BTW.

And yes I know folks don't put much stock in their charts because they can be manipulated but I don't solicit listeners or manipulate the charts except when I post on the MP3 forum here.
The songs made it there on their own merit. I'll take that as a positive.

Again I would not use that as a gauge for anything. Just something for fun and enjoyment.
This is not a KNOCK it's a fact.

Besides Soundclick is great for hosting your songs...

Mike

Higher soundclick ratings for folks like us (who don't promote, pay for placement or push beyond posting here or another site or two) just means that we have 50-100 folks that think enough about our works to click on it and give it a spin.

That always means a lot to me.

Kevin

Here Here !!! I agree Kevin..........

I also believe if you play your own song through the player --- it counts........ so keep that in mind if you really want to get a handle on how many or few listens you really get !

Kev

Okay about Soundclick that is totally cool and understood. Now Bill can come back and let me know that is his only goal as a songwriter,and he has no other thoughts or plans for his music.

Once that is said then my conversation on the subject is over. Nobody needs any help to post songs on SoundClick and you do not have to improve any single thing you did with them to be there or to reach number one.

Not downing Soundclick I use it too, but I'm not letting two different things get mixed into one.

Mike
Maybe you need to go back and read your previous post's. If you had not said I was wasting my time we wouldn't be having this conversation. You repeatedly said anyone who hasn't attended hundreds of concerts, like you, doesn't love music enough to write good songs. You repeatedly said if I didn't have your dedication I didn't have any business trying to write songs, that I should quit.
You repeatedly said I didn't deserve to be here because I wasn't Mike Caro. I wasn't good enough if I didn't know every song ever written. How could I possibly believe I could write songs if I didn't have your background in music.
Now maybe you didn't say it in exactly those words but that, to me, is what you said.
Now you tell me it doesn't matter if people on soundclick like my song enough to play it. That anyone can get a number one there?
I have told you I am trying to learn to write more modern country songs and you tell me because I didn't love music enough in the eighties and attend Alan Parsons Project concerts I'll never be able to.

Then you finish it up with this

Whatever gave you that idea? You are the one that has been saying I don't like music enough to be serious about it. You put yourself above me, and I assume, everyone here, because you have attended thousands of concerts and you are a pro and we are only amateurs.
That if we don't eat, sleep, and crap music we will never get anywhere.

Now it may be that I totally misunderstood you and if I did please accept my apology but that is, IMHO, what you have said.


JM
yes, if you play your own song I think it shows in the song count but I don't think it effects the charts.
People who have paid accounts do get a slight advantage in the charts. I don't have a paid account.

That`s my motto as of today :-)

All the best
Jan

Bill

I apologize for bringing up your name in a post, I shouldn't have done that. I was just connecting reading through different post including Brian's that mentioned you. Sorry if I offended you then, I wasn't thinking probably 6:30 am right before I go to sleep

As for all the rest of this I NEVER said...

1. You are wasting your time
2. You should give up
3. You have know business writing songs
4. You don't deserve to be here cause your not ME LOL that's a good one..
And On & On
You said half those things yourself literally. Sorry if i made you "feel" that way.

Maybe I mentioned some things too like I know for a fact you don't like ALOT of popular music considering how much music is out there. I have heard you say how many things you have never heard or never gave a chance to, How do I know this??
I've been reading what you write for FIVE years now pal.

Then you didn't think it made any difference in your work.
Okay then if you think so....

On going to concerts and shows...
I said "that is what people who LOVE music do"
People who want muscles go to the gym. etc etc... It's common sense to me. I supported this industry by spending on it in every way you could from equipment to countless concerts. I'm not complaining about that, I love it, I learned from it, it's what I do, who I am. Some guys build cars...

I didn't say you ain't me, we know who we are, you said "you are struggling with Modern writing"" I said I KNOW WHY! Thought you'd like to know also. The Parsons song was just an example, a perfect put your finger on example. I have a tons more as well,
Why? Maybe cause of the countless tons of music I have seen and heard my whole life.

I did say this

So please don't take the following as insults as hard as that may be, I'm only bothering taking a chance telling you because I like you. If your even dreaming about doing something with your music or forget that but even challenging yourself to do some things I have heard you saying you were trying to do then you should be aware of what I mean.

You were insulted before that, I apologize for mentioning your name in my reply. After that I was trying to help you as I thought maybe if you were not seeing it after all these years maybe you didn't know why, maybe you wanted to dig a little deeper into it. Maybe you wanted to try something more than Soundclick. I ASSUMED and that was my big mistake you know
Ass-u-me "Ass out of U and Me"

Also I was a bit hard and I apologize for that I couldn't believe how you were missing the point, and just taking everything from jump as a complete insult. Didn't think you were gonna get it from the normal sugarcoating flowers and candy approach that goes around constantly, the kind of thing that I have seen MAB delete all his posts and go away for weeks at a clip over. I thought maybe you wanted to try more things and wanted to expand and do more.

You know maybe I'm just worn out and need a break, I'm very very very, passionate and my eagerness to help can backfire.
I see countless people (NOT YOU) though, who just want so much from a field an industry a business and put in so little. I get it but I don't get it...

They want to make it to the SuperBowl without all the complete
100% effort,time,work,sacrifice and commitment that many who have did. And do it all because they love to play the game.

No need to reply to me...
I won't be back on here so the last thing I will say is
I am sorry for the misunderstanding, sorry Bill.

Not only do I believe that to be true, I believe it's also true if you replace "music" with any other endeavor.

But that's not the hard thing. The hard thing is that if you DO eat, sleep and crap [whatever], it's still no guarantee that you will get anywhere

Which is why its important to make sure you also enjoy the ride

Scott

MAB rides up on his white Shetland Pony.....

Woah now, Nellie,what's goin' on here? My name was mentioned here! LOL!

I want to say a couple of things in defense of my poor little ex-pony tail wearing buddy Sir, William here.

I generally try to divide writers into "Types" of writers in ways to identify the best approach to help them and often get them out of their own way.

There are "Crumudgeons" who have a chip on their shoulder,all they want to do is talk other people down.

They usually develop from another type of writer I call "The Cynic." That is what Bill was when he moved here to Nashville. Whenever you come from a different community it is always difficult to find your place in that community. And as much as i preach the "love and brotherhood" of Nashville,there are PLENTY of people who are unwelcoming. Our crumedgeons are more likely to have been here 25 years and at one time "WERE" somebody.
They have seen their way of life downloaded away.

So there is more than enough bitterness to go around.

What Bill ran into when he hit the town was a lot of that. So it kind of sapped his energy for the rat race here and took away his appetite for music. That is what leads to all of that with any of us. there is a lot of "What the point."

I kept reading it in his posts and then started bugging him about showing up at some of the events and parties that I am involved with. That he has started doing and I will say that I am proud of him. he has even made a couple of my workshops and aside from cutting off his pony tail (I don't know if he can get into Heaven now) he is starting to make that transformation from
"God this sucks' to "You know there is some pretty cool stuff here. It still sucks,but not quite as bad."

So let's keep a little of that perspective in Bill here.


Mike, I have deleted a few posts sometimes,it is mostly because some of these arguments go no where and I just don't want to be involved any more. And when I have "dissapeared" have actually had as much to do with travel and work schedule than anything else. Sometimes I am able to read what goes on but not able to comment.

I will say that there are times my patience gets tested because so much of what we talk about here, I have to address on a daily basis,I get tired of repeating myself and when I am not being paid for it... well, I would just rather go elsewhere until the subject changes.

But one thing I would mention, if people didn't care about each other here, I don't think there would be the same outpouring of comments, passion,anger, and love that we can all read in black and white. It goes back to what a really cool place Brian and company have created here and why everyone keeps coming back even when the conversation doesn't go their way.

Good to hear from you all.

MAB

Sorry for coming in so late to this thread, but I saw this and I had to comment.

If you're having trouble writing the "new" country style, then I say write what you listen to and enjoy! There is still a market for some more traditional music, or at least modern music that sounds classic.

A lot of people haven't heard of them, but two of my favorite artists, Jens Lekman from Sweden and Findlay Brown from the UK, both create and perform songs that sound like they are from long ago. Sweeping strings, echoed vocals, harmonies.... And both of them have quite a following in their respective countries. I hear that Jens is pretty popular in Sweden with his style of music. And Findlay's music sounds like it could have sat very nicely on classic radio in the 60s next to Frank Sinatra.

Sondre Lerche from Norway is another example. He incorporates a lot of jazz and classic music influences in his music as well, and many of his songs sound classic even though they were written in the 2000s. And he is a major star in Norway!

What I'm saying is that you should write what you enjoy and like, because there WILL be people out there who will like it. If you're having trouble writing modern country, don't try to bang your head against a wall trying to write something you're having trouble with. Writing is supposed to be something enjoyable after all!

That's my two cents.

Mike
Whether you come back into this thread or not I will give you an example of your own words that are basically telling me I don't have a chance.



Now if I am reading this right you say music is your world. But it isn't mine. You say I don't know anything about music. Then go on in another post and say this


So I am a bit confused. You keep telling me that I will not be able to do music because I don't have your VAST experience. That because I am not TOTALLY immersed in music 24 hours a day I am wasting my time and it doesn't make any sense to continue.
Am I misinterpreting your words?
Then go on to say that if people on soundclick like my songs it has no value.
BTW soundclick is not the only place I frequent.
At one point I was rated in the top ten on the my space music charts for Michigan. Maybe that means nothing.
I don't know.

Part of the problem is I thought I might actually get some encouragement from you but what I got was the opposite.

I think Ann speaks wisdom, unless the goal is to be the next global superstar. How many MAB and Mike war stories do we need to read before we fully understand how unlikely it is to write a hit song? I don't mean to discourage anyone from trying, because it certainly happens...but I often question why some of us actively pursue such a goal when their talents are better suited to other musical goals.

Maybe a lot of us would be wiser to focus on the niche of music they truly love and at which they excel, and seek ways to carve our own place in that niche. Smaller potatoes, for sure, but sometimes it's nice to actually eat something.

By the way, Bill, my comment above is unrelated to your conversation with Mike...for what it's worth, you wrote a song that made me cry. Pretty uncommon event for me, so hats off to you.

Mark
There are about a dozen folks on this forum whom I routinely follow their threads and posts. I listen to their songs.
Why? Because they are the real deal.
Mike Caro is very high on that list. You are there, Scott Campbell, Mab, Big Jim, Janet Snow, Polly, Bob, Mike Dunbar, Among others. (please don't feel left out if I don't mention you}.
I read their posts and listen to what they say because they have the talent I only can dream of having.
And of course many years of hard work and dedication went into the talent they have developed.

I do believe we should try to do what we know. Once we learn how to do that the best we can we can move on to bigger and better things.

If I wrote a song that made you cry then I wrote a song that "Moved you" and I suppose that is what it's all about.
I wonder which one it was

No, it just stunk so bad my eyes watered.



You KNOW I was kidding. It was "I Got a Phone Call Yesterday". Really struck a chord with me. Truth is, that pro demo didn't nail me as much as the raw first rendering.

And how's this for a great bunch of Thread Drift...?