JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Industry Message Forum Pump Audio Turned Me Down. "Boo- Hoo".

The title of this thread may be a little deceiving, but is relevant. The gist is about any type of success or non success regarding any one's personal musical failures or let downs.

We discuss a lot of real world music business here. Folks like Brian, MD, MAB and Harriet S. are great mentors and resources for people who are seriously pursuing a broad music career, weather writer, performer, or both. We also have the people in the trenches like BC, Big Jim, Jody, and Joanne, who are active, and building a fan base. I might try that some day.

I'm not trying to make this about me, but I have to use personal experience to start a discussion. I don't write for Nashville or any other music hub. I mostly stay local and/or Statewide. A lot of my music is about local history. I've done well in local song contests (never paid and never won). Had my name mentioned in the newspaper, and even got a call from a historian who was interested in doing a story in a magazine. That never happened. Had some e-mail exchanges with the head of A&R at Rounder Records (he contacted me first). Again, nothing happened. Probably because of no fan base.

Read a thread here a few month's ago about Pump Audio. They were reducing their payouts. Some were angry, but I thought what the hell, I'll send in some songs and see what happens. I got the "green light" and mailed in a CD (I hate mailing CD's), but thought it might be worth a try, reduced payout or not. I sent maybe 15 songs with a couple of instrumentals to sweeten the pot.
Got an e-mail today. They turned me down. They didn't give me a particular reason, only a list of possible reasons. It didn't hurt my feelings. My guess is audio quality, or maybe content. Nothing fit's my songs. I will be more choosy about mailing out CD's since I don't like doing it in the first place.

We occasionally get newbies here who have the attitude that positive thinking will get you everywhere. Motivational speaking classes don't always work in every endeavour. Nothing wrong with being positive about your writing or music, but this isn't a job interview. You're making claims that well seasoned veterans are reading. A big turn off.

Interested in opinions, not necessarily about my experience. Just wondering if this makes any sense.

Ben,

It is making perfect sense.What you are seeing is the result of overload. All labels, publishers, even the pitch your songs for fun and profit are being overwhelmed. There are millions of songs and writers out there all looking for ways to get their music out, and what is happening the people who started out trying to help distribute it are now getting too much product in. They simply can't absorb it all.

They didn't give you a reason because that is probably one of hundreds or thousands they are having to turn down. It didn't fit any of their catagories, and if you have content OR quality issues, starting with the ones in your mind, they probably have much more to think about.

Also, a lesson in this is for people to take a very hard look at what they are doing. If you think you can do a 15 song CD and have the best song (in your opinion) number 8 might as well kiss that CD goodby. Nobody has time or inclination to listen past the first couple of songs and most of the time only a verse or two of those.

We are all having to look at what we do with different eyes and ears. We have another thread going about a gentleman thinking about shooting for a record deal with a smaller label. Smaller labels now have huge amounts of people all wanting them to help out. They don't have the space, money or ability to do that. The same with Reverb nation, TAXI, CD Baby, you name it. If there is someone who is trying to do something for commerical reasons, it is like the flood waters have unleashed and everyone is out there shooting for them.

So sorry you got turned down. It is an unfortunate by product of supply and demand. Start really analyzing what you do, your processes and what your expectations are. Write the best songs you can and try to get great representations on them. If you are goign to put something out there, make sure it represents you well.

MAB

Hey Marc, no problem here with the turn down. Just a shot in the dark as far as I'm concerned. Just sorry for making a trip to the post office and paying postage.

I get what you're saying, in fact I knew it before I sent the CD. It's up to the individual to check things out for them selves, which is what I did. No expectations.

Keep saying what you're saying until it sinks into every one's head (if you have time).

Hey Ben! Sometimes you just have to catch the reviewers on a good day. Yeah, as Marc said, the libraries are being bombarded with music. A lot of electronic type tracks.

These young hooligans use synth pads and loops to knock off several tracks a day. The sound quality is great, but the music value is pathetic. These tracks are getting a lot of placements because they set a mood without taking over (melody free). I heard a track today that was used in a movie. It was one synth pad drone with FX's randomly thrown in. No music whatsoever.

I know some of these loopers that have a couple thousand tracks in libraries. Now mind you, I love this tech stuff as much as the next guy, but its opened up a market for the non-musician and created an avalanche of product to sell.

If you only have a half dozen tracks in these libraries, you'll probably get lost in the shuffle - unless you specialize.

My creepy Christmas tracks have been a regular sale commodity (though haven't made me rich), probably because when a client does a search for scary Xmas stuff, my tracks show up. If the client does a search for action, thriller tracks, probably a flood of tracks show up.

Still, to make real money requires a lot of tracks getting placements unless you're extremely lucky and get a McDonald's commercial or have a track used as a theme for a prime time show.

A word about Pump Audio. They're not all that bad. Yes, the licensing fee dropped to 35%, but you're still entitled to all the writer's royalty - and half of the publisher's royalty (better than most). Pump gets a lot of TV placements, thus the reason they only ask for an audio CD. 16 bit is the default for TV. Yeah, it's a pain-in-the bunghole sending out a CD.

Anyway, that's my humble take on the music library business.

Best, John

Thanks, John. I didn't send any type of "assembly line" (my term) music. Just a bunch of songs. Most have great lead licks, but as Marc said they don't have time to listen. I've learned that libraries aren't my forte'.

Want to get a discussion about it going, but not about me. I used myself only as an example.

Hey Ben! Allow me to add my voice to 'it makes perfect sense'. The competition is brutal and every demo you send in has to be a top of the line full production or forget it. Nevertheless, it's great you've done well locally and statewide. That's a feather in your cap and something to be proud of no matter what else transpires.

-Dave

Thing is about library music, it has to work behind dialogue and don't take attention away from the pictures. This makes library music a completely different beast than actual songs from songwriters. Like any genre of music today, the degree of specialization is high, and it's not something you 'just' do.

Music libraries are all about the immediate need. That's why I never submit music to them, that they've not asked for. Music libraries are a minute-by-minute driven business - they want what they are asked for in the phone that same day - or no later than a week later. They already have a lot of off-the-cuff stuff, and look for kinds of music they don't already have. Original stuff with odd instrumentation ect.

Songwriters stuff rarely work in that context (unless that's what they ask for).

Specializing in something like you do Ben, isn't all that bad. If you can keep a good contact with a music library, they might come to you, when they need the particular kind of music you do. Just don't expect the money from library music will change your life, unless you have about a thousand usable tracks.. (hell, even a top 5 country hit, won't)

Ben,

I'd say I feel your pain, but you're not feeling any pain, so I offer no sympathy:-) I stopped sending stuff out "there" several years ago when I realized that I was a decent song writer, but decent wasn't the same as commercial. Simple as that.

I have a friend who spent about two years entering all kinds of songwriting contests. They were all good songs. But she never won, and I would then have to spend an hour talking her down off the ledge. And why? Because some stranger didn't give her the props for reasons that she'll never know?..Silliness...And perhaps a bit of desperation.

The Mentors and Road Warriors you mentioned are the ones who "get it". Hats off to 'em...But it's a hard, nearly impossible road if one is looking for financial success, and I don't think there are ever too many reality checks. Heaven knows there are never enough royalty checks.

Contentment in doing something we love to do, just for the sake of being Blessed enough to be able to do it at all, is just gonna have to be enough for most of us.

Sometimes I think my epitaph will be: Here lies Midnite Bob, better than average, but not quite good enough...C'est la vie.

Midnite

FWIW, I really like the guitar music that is used in the TV show Becker. I wondered who played it and discovered it was the son of the producer of the show. It's who you know!

Yes Colin, I know this happens often. Especially with the "sweet" gigs. But I can understand it. If I were producing a TV show and had a talented son that could do the job, I'd probably give it to him.

This happens not only in the entertainment field, but in all facets of life. I worked for a company once where the father was the owner, the son was the general manager, and the daughter was in charge of the accounting department. But there was work still available there for the general pubic.

There's never been a time when music is needed more in the TV and film industry. The families of the producers can't handle it all.

John

Actually it is who knows you. And how they know you.

Imaine you were a carpenter. Have a decent education, gone to technical school, done a few minor things here and there and you are trying to get a job. There are 25,000 carpenters in the area, and 25 jobs. Who are going to get those jobs?

The people who have been around a while, developed a reputation, the relatives of people who own the subcontracting businesses, the ones who have done the grunt work on other jobs, or the ones who are so good or unique that their reputation preceeds them through other work they have done.

Who gets songs in the music marketplace? People who have been around it for years, made personal contacts, built up catalogue and know exactly what it entails. And for the past 20 years or so, people who not only got to know the movers and shakers early and often but were actually there at the beginning of the career with producers, publishers, record people, or artists. It is a ground floor business. And one that you earn your stripes one song at a time.

The problem that all libraries, pitch services, etc. have is that they don't have those relationships. They are pretty far removed from the "Tip of the spear" which is personal relationships and the one on one contact with the people who actually use the music.

It is very much like standing on an interestate overpass throwing darts at cars, blindfolded. Will you hit something. Possibly. Will it stick? Doubtfully. Just too random. But there is always a chance.

When I see posts like this I always step in and it may sound like a broken record but it is true. You have to meet people.

I did a show last night with a good friend of mine hit writer Gary Hannan. Gary wrote the Joe Nichols number one, "Tequila Makes Her Clothes Fall Off" and the Montgomery Gentry number one, "Back When I Knew It All." The show was really fun, two hours of Gary, myself, and two newer writers in front of a packed house. Pretty cool.

Afterward we went back over to Gary house and he played some work tape, guitar vocals, and then the full demos to the cuts on some of his hits and some new songs. They were freaking amazing. the songs were all so well written, every line was a master piece, every note in the right place, story lines that were great, emotional and visuals all take your breath away. The production even from the work tapes would blow you away. Not to mention the steps they took up the ladder.

Gary is amazingly talented. But the way he got into the business was with his wife at the time being a caterer. She would cater a lot of music industry retreats in FLa. Gary, who was writing at the time, also was a very good golfer. These retreats always had golf outings. Being from South Africa with a cool accent (Think the Gyco lizard) and a lot of fun to be around. He fit in well with that group and ended up getting to know a lot of writers, publishers, etc. Socially first.

It was several years of building those relationships before he actually got to play songs for people. But he kept writing, kept building, and after a while he was getting cuts and then hits. But because he had built those relationships, he was a friend first. Music came as a result of that.

That story is repeated with myself and every writer and artist I have ever known in this business. In my opinion (and no one has ever been able to prove me wrong) that is how it works. It is the same for every producer, every music city, every business.

It's not who YOU know. It's WHO knows YOU. And HOW they know you.

MAB

Marc is right. It is occasionally a frustrating experience. (Not your being right, Marc. The other thing.)

Got to see it on a small scale this past month. Our local port district commissioned a TV documentary for their 100th anniversary; Portland filmmaker (and he is good). Thing has a soundtrack (of course)--rather simple but competent bluegrass guitar. I asked the filmmaker where he got it. "Oh, the guy's a friend of mine." 'Nuff said. Would I have had a shot at that work? Probably not--but if the guy had known me personally, and known what I can do, it might have helped. (He still would probably have picked his friend.)

When you put the shoe on the other foot, it becomes sorta obvious. When I make money in the music business, whom am I going to use for various services? People I know. Yes, they'll be very good at what they do, but they will be people I know.

Shoe back on the original foot, I believe my problem (probably a lot of folks' problem) is not enough people know who I am and what I can do. That's why "Become a household word" is on the 2010 Goals List.

I believe that's how the Medford (OR) punk band Screamin' Gulch got to open for Big & Rich a few years ago. It wasn't them, and it wasn't because they were good. I think Big & Rich really wanted fiddler Don Maddox (make that "The Legendary Don Maddox"), and Don probably told 'em, "These boys are my backup band." And so it goes.

Joe

Well you know, I think music libraries are great for the very reason that they have almost NOTHING to do with networking. I got into my first library before I was 18, making music out of my parent's basement. I got several more deals as a college student, again never having gone to a single networking event or making any kind of connections with anybody (short of cold emails and cold calls.) It seems to me that you can have a lot of success in the library world by doing nothing more than writing and producing amazing music.

Andrew,

I guess you are the exception to every rule in the music business. You are pretty much the only one I have ever heard say anything close to that. But if it works for you, you are making a living and getting lots of songs out there, keep at it. For most of us the rules are a little different.

MAB

Hi Ben

Now your in my world and "let the blames begin" lol

The first problem to recognize with ALL of this is with ourselves.

What have you done?
What are you doing"
What are you going to do?

Think about it, what did you send? How much work,time and money did you invest into it.

A- Did you make those songs you submitted universal?
B- Where they well arranged? CATCHY?
C- Did you make the best possible production/recording you could on them?
D- did you find the best most appropriate singer for each song?

To really really feel let down,frustrated and broken is too know you put all you had into something, and really mean it. Did ALL you could. Like when a fighter loses a fight, "hey I hit him with all I had but"

As for the "newbies here who have the attitude that positive thinking will get you everywhere" you mentioned. I'm not really sure I follow you...
As For them I can only think "not thinking positive will get you no where" for certain.

The usual difference I have found consistently is the newbie or super positives have NOT been beaten up yet. And hopefully they will achieve there goals before that happens to many times.

To those who have seen decades go by filled with heartbreak and dreams unfulfilled I truly sympathize. And to you I can only say this...

Let It Be! let it be BAD LUCK, let it be bad timing!
let it be some a-hole in your band who blew it for you's. let it be some manager, A&R guy, label, incident,accident etc...or WHATEVER!

Just don't let it be YOU! I don't know that it makes a difference but It's ALL you have control over!

Oh yeah my credentials on this matter

I failed (not personally,but professionally) before the age of twenty more then most do in a lifetime..

For one example:
Check out the photo below.
My bands name at the time was "Side Two" I was 18 or 19 years old that day in that studio, that's SIR in New York City. And it's a live showcase for Arista Records for us. This is a serious place, look who we met that night...




While most of my friends were attending college to be whatever they were wanting to be, I spent four or five nights a week at rehearsal.
We did two a day before that showcase, I didn't make a single mistake and had zero fear whatsoever in front of those suits.

Can you imagine what the anticipations were like before this?
trying to explain to family & friends what I was doing..Why i wasn't attending school or keeping a steady job.
Trying to explain to the girlfriend why I had to be at practice almost every night.
Ya know she didn't get it and you know how sacrifices can be, You only get one chance at being young lol.. and I used all my coupons.

After that showcase our manager approached us and gave us the bad news, he did however embarrass me unintentionally by saying
"they felt the bassist,(me)was a real pro and the only one they could use for another act they had signed" I spoke out and said
"Hey see guys, see how much those dorks know? I'm only playing bass a year, so see what they know? End of that!

Rule #1 Loyalty (loyalty to the band)

Was I crushed? hell no! when your YOUNG you bounce back with much more ease...no prob!
Why was I dejected then?

Because I worked sooooooo hard for this. I had been in a band eight years straight before this night, and had been playing for
at least TWELVE YEARS before that night. Non Stop! That's frustrating and all those arguments with a girlfriend ending with a look of "I told you so"

I bounced back as we all did for our next showcase 2 months later MCA Records. Yeah we a had a GREAT connection!!
Forget about that night LOL

With this came more work, more sacrifice and more heartaches.
Still didn't care, cause I LOVE it!
But love can really hurt you in so many ways... But you can't trade that! That's why the let down is great, because the high you were on before hand.

Two years after that I was in the music store and dropped seven thousand $cash$, my life savings to that point All on recording equipment!! And who doesn't wanna go for a mere $300 on a demo? lol And all that gear seven grand worth was let go of eventually for about $300 bucks

The point? For anybody here who feels let down, give more,work harder and make it a GREATER let down!!

And Oh - forget that loyalty to the band rule!! Sometimes you gotta help yourself before you can help others, and stay loyal.

This is what it's all about (quoting Mike):

A- Did you make those songs you submitted universal?
B- Where they well arranged? CATCHY?
C- Did you make the best possible production/recording you could on them?
D- did you find the best most appropriate singer for each song?

This is what every songwriter/musician are struggling with all the time. The work will never finish, and you can always get better..

But these are the things YOU can influence yourself, this is what you need to educate yourself on, make continuous research on, practice on, and think positive about!

The rest is really out of your hands, and may depend on luck, networking, money ect.

Great points, man!

Hey Mags

Exactly, some things wind up out of your hands no matter what, but there are those things which are literally in your hands, so we need to take care of that end. Naturally you can put more into your own hands too like networking, and advertising etc...
It's part of the commitment. But have a great grip on what only you can control.

And it may sound cliche, but knowing you did your best is what truly matters. See for me I can't live with that doubt so I erased it. And I'm still trying to erase it.
This plays into the massive mind games that accompany an impossible goal. We can hype up & psyche up on all the positive talk we want and never be truly prepared for a good punch in the face or stomach. Changes your whole game.

And how many things in life can say "NO" to you before you accept that answer.

I can relate to that, Mike. When I give things my best shot, and then face a 20% gap to having my demo sound like a record, I feel really bad. Every time! Even though I did my best, or maybe exactly because of that.

Acknowleding where you are, when you have bigger dreams, are really hard. And if the gap for whatever reason becomes too big, that's the sort of things that can break people. That's also where the uncertainty is, and I think we'd all like to have that erased. We need to know we will be allright, and make it. I think many of us try to handle that uncertainty by working like maniacs, not really eliminating it, but pushing it aside, along with other potentially wonderful things in life, sad to say. That's the sad trade off for ambition.

Those gap's excist in many domains of life (family, economy, job, career ect.), and if we don't make progress in some of them from time to time, the stories we develop about ourselves can be fatal. That's where the positive thinking comes in handy.

Healing a punch in the face is manageable, healing yourself, is way harder. The 'NO' always comes from within, first.

HiYa Bro Ben!

Hmmm...I've yet to ever Send a CD to Pump Audio to get My Fair Share of Rejection...guess I'll get around to trying it.

My efforts to become that "Household Word" back in the '80's got me "Chapter 7" in Janet Fisher's "Music Horror Stories" book, so it wasn't ALL bad..heh...just No Big Return on Investment.

The Decade I Took-Off from Music WAS Most Rewarding, & now I'm an Electric Fan Expert with prolly $200K's worth of Fans to Unload at Retirement, AFTER I pen the Book on 'Em I was SUPPOSED TO around 1999...when I got back INTO the Songwriting Game.

WHICH Still seems to be Financially UN-Winnable, but heck, it's at least FUN/I continue to make (& Commiserate-WITH) New Friends in The Industry.

I think the phrase "Living WELL is The Best Revenge" always Applies in life. I've met a #1-Charted Writer-Artist who got screwed outta most ALL his Royalties on it..by his Label. I've ended up FAR happier than he has..fairly-Famous tho he is.

TIMING is pretty important TOO in the Music Biz, AND this IS probably the WORST Possible Time to TRY to get a Toehold in the Game...since this Recession has taken its toll on the "Disposable Income" out there.

So What? Crank Up that Ol' Sinatra Standard "That's Life"...(penned by Dean Kay & Kelly Gordon)..& enjoy "Each Time I Find Myself..Flat on My Face....I Pick Myself Up..& Get BACK in The Race"..."

I get Extra Enjoyment, 'cuz I know his Producer Jimmy Bowen went out in the parking lot AFTER the Session & told Sinatra to "Get out of your car & go back in the studio and RE-Record the vocal"..(Which is why Frank sounds SO pissed-off in the Delivery). Which worked out Just Perfectly.

Hang in there, Amigo...Nobody ever said this was gonna be easy!
Best Wishes/Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

Hey Ben,

That's too bad.

Life sucks, and then you die. *shrugs*

I wouldn't be too concerned. There's plenty more music libraries to turn you down also. Rejection letters make for interesting wallpaper, but just make sure you collect them from all different sources. That way you can make pretty patterns, as you paste them into a montage.

cheers, niteshift

Hey Nite!

It's rejection emails these days. They can still be used as computer wallpaper. Makes a lovely background screen.

John

Ah ! Yes, you're right John, but they don't come in pretty colours.

Oh wait, yes they do, if you get those fancy ones with the corporate logo, which you have to "allow download".

They'd go great on a webpage. Instead of "sponsored by" or "client list" , you could put ( in VERY small writing ) "Rejected by......"

Do you think anyone would notice ? ...... I might try it.

cheers, niteshift

Yeah, I can hear some of the clients saying "Hey, this guy was rejected by Pump Audio". "He may be just what we're looking for - let's contact him".

Thanks Sub, Mags, Tampa Dude, John, and Shifty. Marc, It's pretty much well known that Andrew and wife have been successful, given his genre' which he is very good at.

You guys make it sound like I'm really let down. I'm not. It was a whim, like buying a lottery ticket. I don't cry when I don't win the lottery.

No I didn't cross the T's and dot the I's. I only sent in some songs that were in my computer file getting dusty. I threw in a couple of instrumentals because they would have a better shot of being placed, like throwing sh#$ at the wall. Let's see if it sticks.

Mike, you should write an e-book about your experiences. There's enough material already on this site, all you have to do is edit it. I can help sell it on my blog.

Hi Ben

And there is the whole point of where I'm coming from, the lotto involves no work, real time or sacrifice so there is nothing to cry or hurt about. It was only the money wasted, not our heart & soul with it.

The more you put in the more it truly matters, this where the biggest let downs occur. You have a great handle on this and know the difference, some others believe or not don't in many cases.
They want so bad they begin to hear what they want to hear and believe in things that aren't reality for them.

On my experiences - If we could turn them into an injection or pill we could cure some people's troubles and probably kill others

You and i know it's not about Pump Audio it's about us and figuring out "Our Angle" Knowing what we can offer and finding a way t make it a product of some kind to somebody, someway OR we go to the regular job, and hopefully retire with a decent pension. And making some music for pure enjoyment in our spare time, And there's not only nothing wrong with that, I ENVY it!

Thanks Mike, I've tried everything else job wise. I've been a sales rep most of my life. Sold tobacco, restaurant food, candy, condoms, toilet paper by the boxcar load, pool supplies, farm tractors, excavators. You name it, I've sold it. I flew airplanes for a short time, taught people how to fly, sold cosmetics, beauty supplies, barber clippers, even vacuum cleaners. Nothing has brought me as much satisfaction more than making music. When I see old friends, they never ask if I'm still flying or selling tractors. They always ask if I'm still playing the guitar.

Now I'm mowing lawns like a 12 year old kid. It keeps me in shape. I make enough to eat and pay the bills. I wish that I could afford to buy recording equipment and a good computer, but I scrap by with what I've got for now.

Yes, I threw S#$t at the wall and got the appropriate response, that's why I'm not crying about it.

I really enjoy recording. It might not be great or radio ready, but it's all I've got. Forget about professional demos. Out of the question. People like my music, so I'll just keep chuggin' along until I can afford some equipment.

There are very few jobs left, where selling isn't a must. It's a great past for selling your lyrics, music & productions too..

Update: Well it turns out that they did except one of my songs and another is under review. They still turned down the other 15 songs that I sent.

Well well... let us know what happens and which song and for what.

Mike

Thanks Mike, the song is "These Old Shoes". It's a silly song, been described as a decent children's song by a very credible source. I think it would make a good Dr. Scholls commercial.

They don't tell you if and where it's been used until you get a royalty check.

Here it is on Soundclick.
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=5919691

The song under review is an old Irish fiddle tune (instrumental).
"Temperance Reel"
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6213129

Ben, I love this little tune. I can hear it done "barber shop" style with a bunch of cool bgvs being sung on a back porch somewhere. Nice work.

Hey Ben, you old aviator:

Failure is evidence that you tried. Without making an effort, success is never achieved. It really is all the things that have been discussed by others on this thread. Does one have talent? Do you know anyone who can open a normally locked door for you? Do you have the patience and perserverance to slug it out toe to toe with all the competition out there?

Guess I'll set up shop in Madagascar. I hear most people there are tone deaf... LOL!

Ben, I listened to a few of your songs. You play one mean guitar. And "These old shoes" is a good song.

Ya, Ben, I listened to that first track on your music page (Youtube clip) and was like, "what is that, a 24 stringed guitar"? Nice work though.